Canadians coming to the US for Dentistry for Canadian Dentists ONLY

[Binary_010101]

Hi Everyone,

Before people jump on me for making this statement I would like to start off but saying this is my personal opinion and experience. I am a Canadian dentist practicing in Canada and received my dental degree from Canada as well. My concern is that many Canadian undergraduate students with very low GPAs who just want to attach Dr. in front of their name (does not apply to med schools because medical school competition for Canadians in the States is very high) are going to dental school in the States that favour Canadian dentists because they make a lot of money off of them (NYU, Case Western, BU etc.) and they are easily coming back to Canada especially Toronto. My issue is not with the quality of education or that admissions into these schools for in state or American students is easy but because these schools make big bucks of these international Canadian students. I really think that Canada needs to rethink their legislature on this issues I know so many Canadians who can't even get interviews at Canadian dental schools easily getting in with 3.3 GPAs into American dental schools. Any other Canadian dentists trained in Canada also feel this way? I'm not here to bash anyone or act like an elitist but it's very unfair that lazy students are ending up with the same designation than students who worked hard in undergrad to get where they are.

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[Contach]

You are misinformed on several things:
1. Private american schools (NYU, Case Western, BU, plus many others) don't make any additional money by admitting a Canadian student over an American student. The tuition is the same for either student.
2. The Canadian government doesn't dabble in the affairs of dental licensure. In fact, dentists (Royal College of Dental Surgeons of Ontario/other Province), are responsible for regulating the practice of their fellow dentists - as stated in the 1991 Regulated Health Profession's Act.
3. Similar to how Canadian provinces recognize American dental degrees, American states recognize Canadian dental degrees, and hence a Canadian dentist, like yourself, who chooses to move to the USA to practice can do so by simply taking the appropriate board exams (NBDE part 1, part 2, and a practical exam: NERB/WREB/CRTA/SRTA/etc). Such an agreement is thought to be beneficial because it offers workforce mobility, and protection against underserved areas.

So, if you really feel strongly about your cause, you should probably (1) get informed, (2) don't lie and pretend like you are worried that private American institutions are making "big bucks off these [poor, naive] international Canadian students" because frankly it sounds like you only care about your own interests of the Toronto market becoming saturated, (3) complain to the RCDSO, and (4) realize that grades are arbitrary, and if you were even the slightest bit enlightened you would realize that there are easier ways to game the system to get a higher GPA: take easier classes, go to an easier school, go to a specialized program, do less extracurriculars.

 

[Binary_010101]

You are misinformed on several things:
1. Private american schools (NYU, Case Western, BU, plus many others) don't make any additional money by admitting a Canadian student over an American student. The tuition is the same for either student.
2. The Canadian government doesn't dabble in the affairs of dental licensure. In fact, dentists (Royal College of Dental Surgeons of Ontario/other Province), are responsible for regulating the practice of their fellow dentists - as stated in the 1991 Regulated Health Profession's Act.
3. Similar to how Canadian provinces recognize American dental degrees, American states recognize Canadian dental degrees, and hence a Canadian dentist, like yourself, who chooses to move to the USA to practice can do so by simply taking the appropriate board exams (NBDE part 1, part 2, and a practical exam: NERB/WREB/CRTA/SRTA/etc). Such an agreement is thought to be beneficial because it offers workforce mobility, and protection against underserved areas.

So, if you really feel strongly about your cause, you should probably (1) get informed, (2) don't lie and pretend like you are worried that private American institutions are making "big bucks off these [poor, naive] international Canadian students" because frankly it sounds like you only care about your own interests of the Toronto market becoming saturated, (3) complain to the RCDSO, and (4) realize that grades are arbitrary, and if you were even the slightest bit enlightened you would realize that there are easier ways to game the system to get a higher GPA: take easier classes, go to an easier school, go to a specialized program, do less extracurriculars.

oh God here we go
Point 1. yes they do make additionally money off of them since international students pay higher tuition
Point 2. When did I lie? where did I mention that I care about private american institutions making big bucks of poor naive inter nation Canadian students I clearly stated the issue of an influx of undergraduates with low GPAs essentially buying their degrees then coming back to Canada saturating the job market. And the reason that Private american schools let in Canadian undergraduates with lower GPAs is because they make more money off of them.
Point 3. True but most Canadians don't come to the states to work unless to specialize since it's highly competitive in Canada and many want to stay in Canada. Yes there is reciprocity between Canada and the US. But the issue is not over saturation of Canadian dentists in the US but the reverse so I fail to see your point. And to your point about under service areas, from my understanding in Canada at least most people stick to big cities, they are not making international graduates work in remote under serviced areas hence why there is an over saturation of dentists (and many from the states) practicing in bigger cities.

Really if grades are arbitrary then they should just let anyone in right? I mean clearly the schools can just train people. I mean if that's the case why not do that for every single program. I still know people who go to easier schools and still cannot pull of competitive GPAs and they of course end up in American private dental schools. Again read the beginning of my post "experience". I have seen this stuff first hand that's why I made this thread.

 

[Contach]

1. No, tuition is the same whether you are an American or Canadian or Bangladeshian. I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania and thus I can also tell you this fact firsthand (this should resonate loudly with you, because apparently you place high value in first-hand "experience," and anecdotal evidence) Furthermore, http://www.bu.edu/dental/about/offices/registrar/tuition/dmd-tuition/ ; http://www.case.edu/finadmin/controller/bursar/tuition_2014.htm#dental : show me where they have in-state and out-of-country expenses listed - they dont... because the cost is the same. Some state schools (ie. public, ie. government subsidized) do offer discounts to American students who are from that respective state (eg. Stony brook which lists in-state and out-of state expenses http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/professional/dentistry.shtml ), but NOT private schools - which is by and large where most Canadians end up going.

2. You said the following two things: (A) "My issue is ... but because these schools make big bucks of these international Canadian students." and (B) "but it's very unfair that lazy students are ending up with the same designation than students who worked hard in undergrad to get where they are." So clearly you have two issues: the first which I have shown above is wrong and as I read through the lines, I learn is a cover-up for your real reason to make this post: a feeling of entitlement.
Consider an alternative reason why American schools let Canadian students in: because all they are trying to find are the most deserving applicants - whether Canadian, American or Bangladeshi.
Once again, private american schools don't make a cent more off of a Canadian student as compared to an American student.

3. Are you trying to say that specialists who want to work in Canada have a hard time, and thus move to America to practice? Many want to stay in Canada, and many want to move to America. You like many of my friends from the GTA, are Toronto-centric; I don't fully understand why, but everyone from that area feels that the world resolves around that area and who would ever want to leave. New York City has a similar vibe, where residents call home "The city."
You seem to think that saturation is unique to large Canadian cities - this is not true. Saturation is very present in large American cities as well. The great paying jobs and the underserved are in the boonies, Canadian and American alike.
Workforce mobility allows a disgruntled Toronto dentist to grow some balls and move to Idaho (an underserved area of the USA) and have to take only a couple tests.
Maybe they should make newly graduated dentist work in underserved areas. That would serve the people, and put an end to your bitching about having to work in a saturated area.

Yeah, they should definitely reform how they evaluate applicants. No, I don't think they should let anyone in. If a student ends with a 3.7 GPA, how much worse of a student is he than someone with a 3.9? Is he not as smart? Did he have to work jobs? Were his courses harder? Did he have difficulties during school? There's a lot of stuff to consider and it's sad that people's dreams are crushed, often for reasons beyond their control. America is the land of opportunity: if you have the willingness to pay/take on some debt, you can live your dream.

The National Dental Examining Board of Canada seems to think that if you can pass their test, you are fit to be a dentist in Canada. You seem to think that shouldn't be enough - that only Canadians from Canadian schools should be able to be a dentist in Canada. Have you ever thought that if that happens, Canadian schools would be forced to open more spots to meet the unmet need of dentists in Canada?
The way the system works now is a capitalist market. A dentist who graduates from Canada/USA can easily move to where he/she wants because degrees are recognized. Saturation, should fix itself as dentists in saturated areas who struggle will realize they are better off moving somewhere else.

 

[Binary_010101]

1. No, tuition is the same whether you are an American or Canadian or Bangladeshian. I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania and thus I can also tell you this fact firsthand (this should resonate loudly with you, because apparently you place high value in first-hand "experience," and anecdotal evidence) Furthermore, http://www.bu.edu/dental/about/offices/registrar/tuition/dmd-tuition/ ; http://www.case.edu/finadmin/controller/bursar/tuition_2014.htm#dental : show me where they have in-state and out-of-country expenses listed - they dont... because the cost is the same. Some state schools (ie. public, ie. government subsidized) do offer discounts to American students who are from that respective state (eg. Stony brook which lists in-state and out-of state expenses http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/professional/dentistry.shtml ), but NOT private schools - which is by and large where most Canadians end up going.

2. You said the following two things: (A) "My issue is ... but because these schools make big bucks of these international Canadian students." and (B) "but it's very unfair that lazy students are ending up with the same designation than students who worked hard in undergrad to get where they are." So clearly you have two issues: the first which I have shown above is wrong and as I read through the lines, I learn is a cover-up for your real reason to make this post: a feeling of entitlement.
Consider an alternative reason why American schools let Canadian students in: because all they are trying to find are the most deserving applicants - whether Canadian, American or Bangladeshi.
Once again, private american schools don't make a cent more off of a Canadian student as compared to an American student.

3. Are you trying to say that specialists who want to work in Canada have a hard time, and thus move to America to practice? Many want to stay in Canada, and many want to move to America. You like many of my friends from the GTA, are Toronto-centric; I don't fully understand why, but everyone from that area feels that the world resolves around that area and who would ever want to leave. New York City has a similar vibe, where residents call home "The city."
You seem to think that saturation is unique to large Canadian cities - this is not true. Saturation is very present in large American cities as well. The great paying jobs and the underserved are in the boonies, Canadian and American alike.
Workforce mobility allows a disgruntled Toronto dentist to grow some balls and move to Idaho (an underserved area of the USA) and have to take only a couple tests.
Maybe they should make newly graduated dentist work in underserved areas. That would serve the people, and put an end to your bitching about having to work in a saturated area.

Yeah, they should definitely reform how they evaluate applicants. No, I don't think they should let anyone in. If a student ends with a 3.7 GPA, how much worse of a student is he than someone with a 3.9? Is he not as smart? Did he have to work jobs? Were his courses harder? Did he have difficulties during school? There's a lot of stuff to consider and it's sad that people's dreams are crushed, often for reasons beyond their control. America is the land of opportunity: if you have the willingness to pay/take on some debt, you can live your dream.

The National Dental Examining Board of Canada seems to think that if you can pass their test, you are fit to be a dentist in Canada. You seem to think that shouldn't be enough - that only Canadians from Canadian schools should be able to be a dentist in Canada. Have you ever thought that if that happens, Canadian schools would be forced to open more spots to meet the unmet need of dentists in Canada?
The way the system works now is a capitalist market. A dentist who graduates from Canada/USA can easily move to where he/she wants because degrees are recognized. Saturation, should fix itself as dentists in saturated areas who struggle will realize they are better off moving somewhere else.

AGAIN, "because these schools make big bucks of these international" the because is not because I care but explaining that the reason the admission requirements are easier for canadian students is because the american schools make money off of them. I don't know how else I can explain this to you. As I said already, the issues is the lenient requirements AS A RESULT of private american schools making money off of international students. Is that better?
Way to assume, who said anything about Toronto-centric I am seeing first hand where most internationally trained dentists end up many come back to bigger cities including Toronto (i also mentioned bigger cities in my previous post not just Toronto). I'm glad you are expressing over saturation in states but again that's not the point of this thread and I highly doubt that oversaturation is due to Canadian trained dentist moving to the states to practice, again please try to stay on topic. About the 3.7 average, as I stated before I see people from Canada getting into NYU dent with 3.3 averages there's a huge difference between 3.3 and 3.7 - 3.9. I find it very unlikely that Canada at this time doesn't have enough dentists that they need to open up spaces for American dentists to flock in. Clearly there is more beaureaucracy and you are making it a a much simple issue then it is. Cleary RCDSO CDA are making money off of this. Ok you are right there is no cost difference in tuition for americans and international which actually works against these schools reps, the fact that they are taking lower GPAs just proves that they are just looking for money whether from americans or canadians. Why don't you see many internationals getting into state dental schools, that's because they take top students. Clearly NYU, BU, case western just to name a few are just in it for the money and this goes against their reps. Essentially, going back to my point YOU ARE BUYING YOUR degree and if buying your degree means land of opportunity then so be it but stop defending them. You act like having a sense of entitlement is bad, it's only bad if you don't have a reason for it. If i got in with a 3.9 GPA and am now I dentist and I see lazy students getting in with a 3.3 and easily coming back to Canada to practice dentistry of course I have a well deserved reason to have a sense of entitlement.

 

[capnamerica]

Essentially, going back to my point YOU ARE BUYING YOUR degree and if buying your degree means land of opportunity then so be it but stop defending them.

Care to elaborate on this part? I'm failing to understand how paying higher tuition is tantamount to buying one's degree. Do the students at NYU, BU, CWRU, etc. that you speak of not persevere through the rigors of dental school, pass licensing exams, etc.?

 

[gryffindor]

As a US trained dentist, it is nice to know that my degree is recognized in Canada if I ever had to move there for some reason. Same goes for the Canadian trained dentists who find themselves practicing in the US. Because it would suck to have to go to school all over again just to move across the border.

The big private schools will take anyone who meets their criteria and can pay like Contach already told you. Where do Canadian students get their student loans to pay these huge tuitions? From my limited experience, I seem to recall they had educational loans from Canadian banks that were more favorable than the loans US students were getting from the US government. Maybe you should direct your anger at the people making the loans possible for these students to get their degrees at the $$$$$$ US dental schools. Good luck with that.

 

[oralcare123]

You are just venting about the competition the international dentists are creating to dentists in Canada. Ask your government why they accept that many immigrants. Now they opened up a way to pass several exams to get licensed, but the passing rate, as I heard is just 9% or so. Before it was just 50 seats in a whole Canada for them, no wander they tried USA. Last year UBC had 2 year waiting list - isn't this insane?
Actually it is more affordable to get education in USA and selection process is much more fair. Do you know that in 2008 there was a huge scandal in ACFD, then it was discovered that someone was selling questions and answers of eligibility examination, which was the main criterion for the selection of int. dentists for canadian dental schools? The price of credential evaluation, board exams and english test was about three times less in USA then in Canada.
Compared to regular students international graduates selected on many more criteria, like practice experience, not just GPA

 

[Binary_010101]

Care to elaborate on this part? I'm failing to understand how paying higher tuition is tantamount to buying one's degree. Do the students at NYU, BU, CWRU, etc. that you speak of not persevere through the rigors of dental school, pass licensing exams, etc.?

Again, back to a point i made previous, why is it that canadian undergrads flock to private dental american schools, clearly their criteria for selection is much lower than that of state and ivy league schools. In canada more or less the criteria is the same. That's what I meant by buying their degree, essentially if you have the money you can go to a lower tiered school with lower cutoffs to get your degree. The licensing exams at least the written for both canada and the states are easy, especially now since part I and Part II are now pass and fail. As i eluded to before, i never said the quality of training is sub par or bad, I said the criteria to get in is much less rigorous and competitive.

 

[Binary_010101]

You are just venting about the competition the international dentists are creating to dentists in Canada. Ask your government why they accept that many immigrants. Now they opened up a way to pass several exams to get licensed, but the passing rate, as I heard is just 9% or so. Before it was just 50 seats in a whole Canada for them, no wander they tried USA. Last year UBC had 2 year waiting list - isn't this insane?
Actually it is more affordable to get education in USA and selection process is much more fair. Do you know that in 2008 there was a huge scandal in ACFD, then it was discovered that someone was selling questions and answers of eligibility examination, which was the main criterion for the selection of int. dentists for canadian dental schools? The price of credential evaluation, board exams and english test was about three times less in USA then in Canada.
Compared to regular students international graduates selected on many more criteria, like practice experience, not just GPA

In my honest opinion i'd rather the internationally trained dentists who have years of experience back home be taking spots that, lazy canadian undergrads who got in with low GPAs. My school had several amazing internationally trained dentists who went the 2 year route (before the single exam you can take and practice) and their work and knowledge was exceptional. Plus the exam those internationals have to write is extremely difficult and those who do pass do deserve to practice in canada

 

[Binary_010101]

As a US trained dentist, it is nice to know that my degree is recognized in Canada if I ever had to move there for some reason. Same goes for the Canadian trained dentists who find themselves practicing in the US. Because it would suck to have to go to school all over again just to move across the border.

The big private schools will take anyone who meets their criteria and can pay like Contach already told you. Where do Canadian students get their student loans to pay these huge tuitions? From my limited experience, I seem to recall they had educational loans from Canadian banks that were more favorable than the loans US students were getting from the US government. Maybe you should direct your anger at the people making the loans possible for these students to get their degrees at the $$$$$$ US dental schools. Good luck with that.

It's funny how everyone here is so defensive and call me angry, this is a forum a forum for discussion it's said that anyone who has an opinion that does not coincide with others is "angry" I think you need to relax. Yes canadians get loans but their education nearly 50% is subsidized by the government. First year tuition let's say around 30 000 vs. 60-80000 in american schools. Again the issue is not money, it's the fact that rejects from canada are flocking to the US to private schools. Yes, the issue definitely has to be brought up with the canadian licensing boards and legislature not the banks.

 

[oralcare123]

You are seriously misinformed. For international program a few years ago UBC charged 150K for 2 years. Government were giving me something like 24K a year, everything else private bank loans.
I have experience in both systems and can tell you US is much more humane. 3.3 is not lazy, dentistry should not be only for the 4.0 GPA holders, there are plenty of other hoops.
In regards to int dentists - they are not all good ones, even with years of experience. Exams are three not one, the cost around 8K. First one theory, just like board exams and two are clinical. They just seem much more difficult, because they are not used to them
Situation is very similar with jobs - if Canada is not hiring then US does and other way around.
Anyway, let it go, get a girlfriend

 

[Applesandteeth]

 

[gryffindor]

It's funny how everyone here is so defensive and call me angry, this is a forum a forum for discussion it's said that anyone who has an opinion that does not coincide with others is "angry" I think you need to relax. Yes canadians get loans but their education nearly 50% is subsidized by the government. First year tuition let's say around 30 000 vs. 60-80000 in american schools. Again the issue is not money, it's the fact that rejects from canada are flocking to the US to private schools. Yes, the issue definitely has to be brought up with the canadian licensing boards and legislature not the banks.

You misunderstood my post. Where are the Canadians who "flock" to the US private dental schools getting the money to pay for the $80K tuition? From Canadian banks? If yes, then there's your problem. If they couldn't get the money, they wouldn't come.

 

[Binary_010101]

You misunderstood my post. Where are the Canadians who "flock" to the US private dental schools getting the money to pay for the $80K tuition? From Canadian banks? If yes, then there's your problem. If they couldn't get the money, they wouldn't come.

That's not the root of the issue though. America was giving out mortgages to people who couldn't pay them back and then the recession happened. You can apply banks giving loans to many problems that exist. The root of the problem is why are these schools requirements much lower to begin with? If they didn't get acceptance then they wouldn't come. Getting loans is after the fact...it's not the root of the issue.

 

[Binary_010101]

You are seriously misinformed. For international program a few years ago UBC charged 150K for 2 years. Government were giving me something like 24K a year, everything else private bank loans.
I have experience in both systems and can tell you US is much more humane. 3.3 is not lazy, dentistry should not be only for the 4.0 GPA holders, there are plenty of other hoops.
In regards to int dentists - they are not all good ones, even with years of experience. Exams are three not one, the cost around 8K. First one theory, just like board exams and two are clinical. They just seem much more difficult, because they are not used to them
Situation is very similar with jobs - if Canada is not hiring then US does and other way around.
Anyway, let it go, get a girlfriend

So if a 3.3 student is no different from a 4.0 student, then heck just allow everyone in, just have basic cut-offs and if anyone who makes them can get acceptance. Why even have marks, just let people get into whatever field they like, because at the end anyone can be trained to be good at it.

 

[oralcare123]

You are complaining, that market regulates education. There is a demand for education - smart people give it in exchange for money, instead of creating a bunch of very unhappy and frustrated people. You are implying though, that they give bad education to very bad people for a lot of money. That is not true

 

[Binary_010101]

You are complaining, that market regulates education. There is a demand for education - smart people give it in exchange for money, instead of creating a bunch of very unhappy and frustrated people. You are implying though, that they give bad education to very bad people for a lot of money. That is not true

I am not complaining that the market regulates education, where did I say or imply that. I'm sorry not everyone who is getting into these schools are smart, many are mediocre or average. As I said repeatedly, the education is not bad, and i never used the word bad. A lot who are getting in are very average students, who are getting in to private schools that are more relaxed on their requirements. But I feel people are just going in circles in this thread. Nobody has really discussed anything worthwhile except keep repeating the same thing over and over again, causing me to repeat myself. People have made such ridiculous statements in this thread like someone mentioning a student with a 3.3 GPA and blaming banks for average students getting into professional school (this one really made me chuckle).

 

[ResidentScrub]

Nobody has really discussed anything worthwhile except keep repeating the same thing over and over again, causing me to repeat myself.

the thing everyone keeps repeating is that you are wrong and misguided.

 

[Binary_010101]

the thing everyone keeps repeating is that you are wrong and misguided.

Yes just throw out accusations without any backing it up. Misguided about what? yes because all people here have been saying that a 3.3 student is no different than one with a 3.7 student yes you guys are so right *rolls eyes*. It's funny because i bet everyone who is replied on here is most probably a canadian who had to go to the states to study dentistry or american dentists. None of you have made valid remarks, except ridiculous claims that GPA apparently doesn't matter and the onus is on BANKS yes BANKS to not give loans to prevent these students from going to American schools (which is completely foolish), yes because it is completely ridiculous to ask the schools themselves to have higher standards (note the sarcam). When one of you actually give a valid argument then maybe a valid discussion can be started. To make excuses for mediocre students doing dentistry is really sad, why not just face the truth that I originally posted. If these were stellar students they would be staying in Canada getting into canadian schools or getting into state or ivey league schools in the States. There must be a clear reason why all these canadians are flocking to NYU, Case Western, BU, nova south eastern etc. Clearly it's not for their prestige or level of education because there are much more highly ranked dental schools in the states than the ones mentioned.

 

[oralcare123]

First of all, you do not know admission statistics, am I wrong? I assume, that you heard a couple of stories about how easy it is to get into private school and now you got all upset. Ever thought, that people were just pulling your leg.
Obviously it is easier to get into expensive school and requirements are not as strict as in the state school due to difference in demand. At the same time they are not accepting people with no potential to succeed.
What are you actually so unset about? Those are not your money, these people are not taking valuable seats from "stellar" canadian students. If they are so mediocre, then they would not even be a problem to compete for patients.
Do you really think, that a person with average GPA, but big heart and very good dexterity would be worse dentist than you?
I think, that you worked very hard to get your perfect GPA and after graduating from the dental school you thought, that you would be the only one on top of the mountain. You are pissed, that someone did not get it the same hard way as you. Just let it go and enjoy life

 

[DaleDoback]

USA>Canada

 

[oralcare123]

I completely understand why

 

[InspiredDDS]

Lol. This thread went nowhere.

 

[Contach]

AGAIN, "because these schools make big bucks of these international" the because is not because I care but explaining that the reason the admission requirements are easier for canadian students is because the american schools make money off of them. I don't know how else I can explain this to you. As I said already, the issues is the lenient requirements AS A RESULT of private american schools making money off of international students. Is that better?
Way to assume, who said anything about Toronto-centric I am seeing first hand where most internationally trained dentists end up many come back to bigger cities including Toronto (i also mentioned bigger cities in my previous post not just Toronto). I'm glad you are expressing over saturation in states but again that's not the point of this thread and I highly doubt that oversaturation is due to Canadian trained dentist moving to the states to practice, again please try to stay on topic. About the 3.7 average, as I stated before I see people from Canada getting into NYU dent with 3.3 averages there's a huge difference between 3.3 and 3.7 - 3.9. I find it very unlikely that Canada at this time doesn't have enough dentists that they need to open up spaces for American dentists to flock in. Clearly there is more beaureaucracy and you are making it a a much simple issue then it is. Cleary RCDSO CDA are making money off of this. Ok you are right there is no cost difference in tuition for americans and international which actually works against these schools reps, the fact that they are taking lower GPAs just proves that they are just looking for money whether from americans or canadians. Why don't you see many internationals getting into state dental schools, that's because they take top students. Clearly NYU, BU, case western just to name a few are just in it for the money and this goes against their reps. Essentially, going back to my point YOU ARE BUYING YOUR degree and if buying your degree means land of opportunity then so be it but stop defending them. You act like having a sense of entitlement is bad, it's only bad if you don't have a reason for it. If i got in with a 3.9 GPA and am now I dentist and I see lazy students getting in with a 3.3 and easily coming back to Canada to practice dentistry of course I have a well deserved reason to have a sense of entitlement.

<deleted a lot of wise ass remarks.. because you won't understand them anyways>

The american schools aren't taking lower GPAs on purpose... they are taking the best from the applicant pool that applies... If it happens that 20 Canadians all have higher GPAs than the Americans who apply then they'll take the Canadians.... assuming the intangibles are similar among the pool of applicants. There is no universal truth that says you are going to be a **** dentist if your GPA is below a 3.5... In 10 years.. maybe the highest GPA that applies will be a 3.4... and then they'll be taking many people with 3.0s and 3.1s because they can't fill their class with 3.5s and 3.6s.... this is so straightforward.. i don't understand how you don't get this.. They aren't going to leave empty spots in the class. As someone else has alluded to, this is similar to a free market - the best get chosen.

The american educational system is much more forward thinking than the Canadian one. American schools (undergrad programs, and dental schools, weigh less on GPA, and more on extracurriculars, character, and intangibles). Your anger is centered around the fact that you think a good dentist, and one who deserves to be a dentist, is one who had a high GPA. This is far from the truth. A student is more than his/her GPA... This is not China or India. North America's values are different from the East.

Wouldn't the RCDSO and CDA make more money if they failed more people, thus making aspiring dentists pay for more re-takes?

 

[herkulis]

US schools in general might not care about students nor their qualities. They care mostly about revenue and filling up those empty seats with someone who can pay. This is true from law schools to for-profit secondary colleges. Law schools manipulate post graduation employment rates to attract law students. There were lawsuits about this. For profit schools give US government sponsored student loans to anyone with a pulse so that they can get a cut. There were lawsuits about this, too. Many of these schools were shut down recently.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

USA>Canada

I am a patriotic American but unfortunately "USA>Canada" may no longer be true. Canada's middle class is now wealthier than America's. Its top income tax rate is lower than America's. It's corporate income tax is lower than America's. It has more economic freedom than America. It also has a lower violent crime rate and has a sensible immigration policy whereupon there are not thousands of migrants from third world countries crossing its borders illegally and draining the country's welfare system, like is the case here in America. Who knows maybe Canada will one day be the better place for dentists,

 

[oralcare123]

Try their crappy health system and you will be running back to USA faster then ever

 

[Binary_010101]

First of all, you do not know admission statistics, am I wrong? I assume, that you heard a couple of stories about how easy it is to get into private school and now you got all upset. Ever thought, that people were just pulling your leg.
Obviously it is easier to get into expensive school and requirements are not as strict as in the state school due to difference in demand. At the same time they are not accepting people with no potential to succeed.
What are you actually so unset about? Those are not your money, these people are not taking valuable seats from "stellar" canadian students. If they are so mediocre, then they would not even be a problem to compete for patients.
Do you really think, that a person with average GPA, but big heart and very good dexterity would be worse dentist than you?
I think, that you worked very hard to get your perfect GPA and after graduating from the dental school you thought, that you would be the only one on top of the mountain. You are pissed, that someone did not get it the same hard way as you. Just let it go and enjoy life

Why are you so defensive, let me guess you're probably one of the students i'm talking about. Wow please re-read my first post, this has nothing to do with my money It's about the job market. When did i ever say anything about MY MONEY being used to go to dental school lol. I have a feeling u just like to say whatever you want and don't even take the time to read what's being said. I'm not even talking about who would be a good dentist or not. If you think this way then clearly marks should not even be used right? If good dentists can be made just by simply sending them to dental schools then why even have an admission process??

 

[Binary_010101]

US schools in general might not care about students nor their qualities. They care mostly about revenue and filling up those empty seats with someone who can pay. This is true from law schools to for-profit secondary colleges. Law schools manipulate post graduation employment rates to attract law students. There were lawsuits about this. For profit schools give US government sponsored student loans to anyone with a pulse so that they can get a cut. There were lawsuits about this, too. Many of these schools were shut down recently.

Agreed.

 

[Binary_010101]

<deleted a lot of wise ass remarks.. because you won't understand them anyways>

The american schools aren't taking lower GPAs on purpose... they are taking the best from the applicant pool that applies... If it happens that 20 Canadians all have higher GPAs than the Americans who apply then they'll take the Canadians.... assuming the intangibles are similar among the pool of applicants. There is no universal truth that says you are going to be a **** dentist if your GPA is below a 3.5... In 10 years.. maybe the highest GPA that applies will be a 3.4... and then they'll be taking many people with 3.0s and 3.1s because they can't fill their class with 3.5s and 3.6s.... this is so straightforward.. i don't understand how you don't get this.. They aren't going to leave empty spots in the class. As someone else has alluded to, this is similar to a free market - the best get chosen.

The american educational system is much more forward thinking than the Canadian one. American schools (undergrad programs, and dental schools, weigh less on GPA, and more on extracurriculars, character, and intangibles). Your anger is centered around the fact that you think a good dentist, and one who deserves to be a dentist, is one who had a high GPA. This is far from the truth. A student is more than his/her GPA... This is not China or India. North America's values are different from the East.

Wouldn't the RCDSO and CDA make more money if they failed more people, thus making aspiring dentists pay for more re-takes?

They clearly just want to fill up seats then, the top american students are going to better dental schools and the canadians are staying in Canada and a small portion of top students (americans obviously) will stay at that school most probably because of location or cost. Trust me the pool of applicants will not be that low anytime soon, basically you're saying what someone else posted on here. They just want to fill seats and they don't care about maintaining an average. Why do you assume that people with high GPAs aren't well rounded. You can have a high GPA and have other things going for you.

 

[oralcare123]

Why are you so defensive, let me guess you're probably one of the students i'm talking about. Wow please re-read my first post, this has nothing to do with my money It's about the job market. When did i ever say anything about MY MONEY being used to go to dental school lol. I have a feeling u just like to say whatever you want and don't even take the time to read what's being said. I'm not even talking about who would be a good dentist or not. If you think this way then clearly marks should not even be used right? If good dentists can be made just by simply sending them to dental schools then why even have an admission process??

Same to you. Read attentively.
I am not defensive, I just disagree with you. If there will be a situation, when USA would not need that many dentists, then they will reduce the seat number. The saddest part, they would not even ask your opinion

 

[buffdent7]

Canadian dental schools primarily look strictly at grades and DAT scores as a determinant for admission, US dental schools generally look at all the attributes of an applicant (extracurricular activities, research experience, personal statement, etc.), the application for admission to US Dental schools is far more involved, I applied in both countries. Sometimes they turn down someone with higher grades because they don't think they are as good as an applicant with lower grades. That would never happen in Canada, at least in the schools out west that i applied to. For instance at the University of Saskatchewan they don't even know anything about you until your interview(they recently got rid of letters of recommendation even) you are literally just a name with statistics attached to it, and getting an interview is based 100% on your Grades, and getting accepted is just Grades, DAT and interview. I'm not saying that is a bad way to find qualified applicants, it's just a different way than pretty much every school in the USA, and accounts for why GPA averages are a little lower in the USA. I had a 3.68GPA and could not get an interview at a Canadian school despite two attempts, so I tried American schools and was successful. I have two friends who applied to both, didn't get any interviews in the USA but did get into a Canadian school (obviously had something unrelated to grades that hurt their US application).

 

[Realitydentalstudent]

Hi Everyone,

Before people jump on me for making this statement I would like to start off but saying this is my personal opinion and experience. I am a Canadian dentist practicing in Canada and received my dental degree from Canada as well. My concern is that many Canadian undergraduate students with very low GPAs who just want to attach Dr. in front of their name (does not apply to med schools because medical school competition for Canadians in the States is very high) are going to dental school in the States that favour Canadian dentists because they make a lot of money off of them (NYU, Case Western, BU etc.) and they are easily coming back to Canada especially Toronto. My issue is not with the quality of education or that admissions into these schools for in state or American students is easy but because these schools make big bucks of these international Canadian students. I really think that Canada needs to rethink their legislature on this issues I know so many Canadians who can't even get interviews at Canadian dental schools easily getting in with 3.3 GPAs into American dental schools. Any other Canadian dentists trained in Canada also feel this way? I'm not here to bash anyone or act like an elitist but it's very unfair that lazy students are ending up with the same designation than students who worked hard in undergrad to get where they are.

I understand your very real fear of oversaturation in Canada, and the feeling that you are a more qualified applicant since you got into a Canadian dental school while others did not. However a couple of things.

1. If you are a resident of Saskatchewan, the average grade for matriculation into University of saskatchewan dental school is in the mid 70s to low 80s. You could not possibly dream of getting an interview in ontario and would have a hard time getting accepted in US schools with those grades. So the term "qualified" obviously differs in different provinces.

2. It is now impossible to attend a US school without financial help from family since the COA is approaching CAN$600k. You will only get 250k from line of credit and 40k from OSAP. So that leaves 300k someone has to fork out! In Alberta, the maximum is 250k from the banks and 150k from the province. Still that leaves 200k you have to make up for. So your issue of oversaturation from US graduates will become irrelevant soon. The problem of oversaturation, in GTA and Vancouver in particular, will come from internationally trained dentists challenging the boards directly.

3. Canada and the US have always had a historical relationship in terms of dentistry. I know Canadian dentists, working in Canada, who are in their 50s and 60s who graduated from US schools in the 70s and 80s. Likewise there are American and Canadian dentists who graduated from Canadian universities practicing in the US. The agreement is mutually beneficial since you could jump ship to US in case oversaturation in Canada worsens.

4. Your problem is akin to american dental students who did not get into their state school, hence attend expensive private schools and then come back to their home state to practice. But there seems to be zero discussion about this issue in the US. Probably because private schools have been around forever here.

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

No need to reply to this thread dude/dudette. OP's head probably exploded months ago from being so angry.

 

[Fraises]

every major city in north america is saturated with dentists these days, there's no use being frustrated about "saturation" in this day and age...

i graduated with an honours bachelor of science (neuroscience specialist major) at the University of Toronto (Trinity College), i thought the mix of psych/physio/pharm was fun and challenging (graduated within last 10 years). with a 3.8 GPA i was not granted even a look at my application from University of Toronto's dental school. applied twice. no interviews granted. on second thought my gpa was probably 3.8-3.85 which i thought was alright hahahaha boy was i wrong. i had jobs during the school year, publications in journals, other extracurriculars. i knew peers in the program who did not do anything outside the classroom but focus on getting that 1 extra % on their essay or midterm, peers who took less challenging classes from less challenging campuses or colleges (I remember taking a challenging 300 level physiology course in 2nd year undergrad). I received high results on my canadian DATs as well, all well in the 20s. the way to play the canadian system is to focus on only achieving a high GPA (nothing else in your life matters) and then bluffing your way through the few interview questions with fake or embellished experiences that maybe your friend or cousin told you about their jobs/extracurriculars (i've gone through them once at UBC and UWO so i know the vague questions could be answered in such a way). example of a challenging interview question: tell me about a time when you showed leadership skills haha
i remember calling the U of T dental school's admissions department and asking what their GPA cut off was for acquiring an interview. they said something like 3.9? lol well it almost made me regret all the life experiences i had had over the previous four years. if I had known i wanted to be a dentist earlier, i could have easily quit my jobs and spent more time listening to lecture recordings or whatever and getting an extra 0.1 on my GPA. it's not like my family couldn't afford to put me through school. i didn't need those jobs or the other research opportunities i was taking advantage of like being flown to montreal to present my research or going to do presentations at mcmaster during the school year in the middle of midterms. everything i did made me the person i am today. in my opinion, having the extra 0.1 in your gpa doesn't make you a better person, a more attentive dental professional, or a better clinician. so....i disagree with anybody who says that lazy canadians go to the states. it's pretty laughable actually. i think i would have had a much, much easier time getting an extra 0.1 on my GPA than having to go through all the american requirements for applications: proof of 50-100 hours of dental shadowing minimum, personal statement essay with something interesting to say, real life strong relationships with professors and employers that would grant you very supportive letters of recommendation, report of every extracurricular/volunteer/employment activity along with meeting minimum requirements in DAT and GPA. i think this is a more well-rounded and fair way to look at an individual as a whole. what can this individual contribute to the field of dentistry apart from his/her ability to read textbooks and regurgitate information? can they contribute to dental research? bring innovation? share his magnetic personality with special care patients? display leadership in dental education/organized dentistry? the american approach to admissions requirements seems to be more challenging in different ways and less stringent on the GPA, because americans seem to believe that non-academic skills also make you a good overall dentist. if you're really book smart, i'm sure you'll get into a canadian school, i wish you good luck with your career in dentistry.

it's actually really easy to play the canadian system if you at least have some brains, and one could argue that you don't necessarily have to be the smartest person to play that game well (just pick your school and courses strategically, and study with good materials in a clever fashion). they never required a resume or letters of rec or personal statement or anything really. literally just GPA+DAT cut offs. yes, i agree that there is a gradient of american dental schools that range from easy to hard, worse to better. ok fine maybe your 'friend' got accepted to an american school that required a lower GPA that you had. but then again, maybe your friends who had lower GPAs have something in their portfolio/personal life/employment history that you lack. life should not completely be determined by a GPA grade you got when you were 17-21.. at an age you perhaps had no idea what you wanted to be when you grow up. heck i didn't know i wanted to apply to dental school until i was almost graduating undergrad.

for the record i am a canadian born and raised, ended up going to an american ivy league dental school who appreciated the complete package that i was and plan on staying in the states for all or much of my professional career. this was just my personal experience with the canadian vs american systems, take from it what you will

 

[toothexplore]

I am your so called "Canadian school reject" and now I'm coming back to steal all your jobs and residencies because my expensive education trumps yours. Mwahahaha