Can't PAs be called Doctor?

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Junkie_Smith

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I mean, the "P" in PA DOES stand for Physician. So why can't PAs insist that they be called "Dr" prior to their last name? They go through medical training exactly like MDs, although it might be harder given that they do it in less time. So can someone tell me once and for all if a PA has the right to be addressed as Doctor? (This is assuming no PhD or other doctorate degree)

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Junkie_Smith said:
I mean, the "P" in PA DOES stand for Physician. So why can't PAs insist that they be called "Dr" prior to their last name? They go through medical training exactly like MDs, although it might be harder given that they do it in less time. So can someone tell me once and for all if a PA has the right to be addressed as Doctor? (This is assuming no PhD or other doctorate degree)

WTF?!?

Geez, you are off on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.

O.k., first "Dr." is a title granted after academic achievement of a doctorate level degree, not something someone "insists" on being called. PAs do not go through medical training "exactly like MDs". MDs (and DOs) go through 4 years of post-bachelor's education followed by at 3 - 5 years of residency and often an additional 2 - 3 of fellowship. PAs go through 2 years of streamlined education in order to diagnose and treat the most common conditions they will face. While I am all for the use of PAs, they are not equal to physicians in terms of training or scope of practice. Lastly, there are many individuals including pharmacists, advance practice nurses, and research personnel who hold doctorate level degrees in hospital based practices who, by administrative rules are not referred to as "doctor" in patient care areas. This is to prevent questions in cases of medical orders or emergencies.

So no, PAs can't just be called "dr." because they want to (but in my experience most don't).

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
WTF?!?

Geez, you are off on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.

Yep, wondering around in the wilderness without a compass! 😱
 
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Junkie_Smith said:
I mean, the "P" in PA DOES stand for Physician. So why can't PAs insist that they be called "Dr" prior to their last name? They go through medical training exactly like MDs, although it might be harder given that they do it in less time. So can someone tell me once and for all if a PA has the right to be addressed as Doctor? (This is assuming no PhD or other doctorate degree)
And the A stands for Assitant
 
FoughtFyr said:
WTF?!?

Geez, you are off on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin.

O.k., first "Dr." is a title granted after academic achievement of a doctorate level degree, not something someone "insists" on being called. PAs do not go through medical training "exactly like MDs". MDs (and DOs) go through 4 years of post-bachelor's education followed by at 3 - 5 years of residency and often an additional 2 - 3 of fellowship. PAs go through 2 years of streamlined education in order to diagnose and treat the most common conditions they will face. While I am all for the use of PAs, they are not equal to physicians in terms of training or scope of practice. Lastly, there are many individuals including pharmacists, advance practice nurses, and research personnel who hold doctorate level degrees in hospital based practices who, by administrative rules are not referred to as "doctor" in patient care areas. This is to prevent questions in cases of medical orders or emergencies.

So no, PAs can't just be called "dr." because they want to (but in my experience most don't).

- H


Common did you have to bite? There is no way this guy can be anything but a troll.
 
Of course PAs can be called "doctor"... as soon as they graduate from medical school.
 
> So why can't PAs insist that they be called "Dr" prior to their last name?

Because they are not doctors. (they have not been granted a doctorate by their university)

None of the PA's I have worked with so far would even want this. They introduce themselves as 'Hello, my name is Y, I am the PA working with Dr X' and are happy to keep it that way. Your patients will respect you for what you do for them and for the professional attitude you bring to their bedside, they won't respect you for a title.
 
I have noticed many PAs being called doctor by patients, because they don't understand all the titles, etc; it's just easier for them; and most of them aren't hung up on titles.

I always call the PharmD people and PhDs doctor unless they want me to call them something else.

I don't know if it's just my institution or whatnot, almost all the staff (nurses, PA, the secretary, etc.) call the housestaff and attendings by first name, even some patients, just us medical students calling them Dr. this and and that...
 
Past a certain point, patients will address the phlebotomist as 'dr' while insisting to address the attending neurosurgeon as 'nurse'.
 
cyanocobalamin said:
I have noticed many PAs being called doctor by patients, because they don't understand all the titles, etc; it's just easier for them; and most of them aren't hung up on titles.

I always call the PharmD people and PhDs doctor unless they want me to call them something else.

I don't know if it's just my institution or whatnot, almost all the staff (nurses, PA, the secretary, etc.) call the housestaff and attendings by first name, even some patients, just us medical students calling them Dr. this and and that...

Yes, I agree that people don’t understand titles thus see someone working in a doctors position and say “doctor.” I am an RN and plan to be a NP soon. I was working with a patient who said I loved that doctor, she was so descriptive. I thought about it had it and it was an NP who just left his room,
He was taking about the NP, to which I corrected him and said NP. He told me oh who cares about titles I loved her anyway is, to me she gets the job done. Well, I corrected him became I don’t want NP to lose there identity, some people don’t even know what an NP is. The staff nurses call her the PA, who I don’t correct because I am a very new nurse and don’t want to get off on the wrong foot.
Anyways, but if you have a PhD you should be called a doctor but the patient should know that you are not a Medical doctor but PA or NP with their PhD.
 
BSN said:
Anyways, but if you have a PhD you should be called a doctor but the patient should know that you are not a Medical doctor but PA or NP with their PhD.

Wow, I want to work where you do. Your patient's and staff have the level of sophistication to tell the difference? Just so you know, the JCAHO (a fairly nurse dominated organization) has twice come within a hair's breadth of making a policy requiring that only physician's be called "doctor" in patient care areas. It seems that, more than once, "doctors" of various descriptions have made "comments" in patient care areas that were mistaken for "orders" by nursing staff. The common reply of how this happened "I thought he/she was a doctor". I actually saw this once when a research Ph.D. jokingly said (about an accused pedophile rapist who'd been beat up in prison) "What he really needs is about a 500cc bolus of KCL". A brand spanking new nurse on the floor walked over to the pyxis. We all started laughing so hard. Her response (in all seriousness - she was NOT joking) was "well she (the PhD) is a doctor..." . Yeah, it was funny because there is no way that the drug would ever have been given. But what if the "order" was for 10mg of ativan?

BTW - ask yourself how upset (and quick to correct) nurses get when a patient refers to an aide as a nurse. Why shouldn't physicians expect the same?

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
BTW - ask yourself how upset (and quick to correct) nurses get when a patient refers to an aide as a nurse. Why shouldn't physicians expect the same?
Couldn't agree more
 
Well said.

Truthfully, anyone who dosent correct a patient RIGHT AWAY when they call you Doctor (be you a PA, NP, RN etc) is decieving the patient.



FoughtFyr said:
Wow, I want to work where you do. Your patient's and staff have the level of sophistication to tell the difference? Just so you know, the JCAHO (a fairly nurse dominated organization) has twice come within a hair's breadth of making a policy requiring that only physician's be called "doctor" in patient care areas. It seems that, more than once, "doctors" of various descriptions have made "comments" in patient care areas that were mistaken for "orders" by nursing staff. The common reply of how this happened "I thought he/she was a doctor". I actually saw this once when a research Ph.D. jokingly said (about an accused pedophile rapist who'd been beat up in prison) "What he really needs is about a 500cc bolus of KCL". A brand spanking new nurse on the floor walked over to the pyxis. We all started laughing so hard. Her response (in all seriousness - she was NOT joking) was "well she (the PhD) is a doctor..." . Yeah, it was funny because there is no way that the drug would ever have been given. But what if the "order" was for 10mg of ativan?

BTW - ask yourself how upset (and quick to correct) nurses get when a patient refers to an aide as a nurse. Why shouldn't physicians expect the same?

- H
 
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i call my NP doctor all the time. I will continue.
 
I keep checking this thread but haven't found much to say, until now:
I try very hard to correct my patients "No, I'm not a doctor, I'm a physician assistant", yada yada. They all KNOW perfectly well who I am; my name tag declares my PA-C; the script I give them says the same. But I've seen people over and over (generally the older crowd) who say 'Oh, honey, I know what you are, but to ME you're Doctor Lisa".
Okeydokey then...I give up.
L.

Mike MacKinnon said:
Well said.

Truthfully, anyone who dosent correct a patient RIGHT AWAY when they call you Doctor (be you a PA, NP, RN etc) is decieving the patient.
 
primadonna22274 said:
I keep checking this thread but haven't found much to say, until now:
I try very hard to correct my patients "No, I'm not a doctor, I'm a physician assistant", yada yada. They all KNOW perfectly well who I am; my name tag declares my PA-C; the script I give them says the same. But I've seen people over and over (generally the older crowd) who say 'Oh, honey, I know what you are, but to ME you're Doctor Lisa".
Okeydokey then...I give up.
L.

Yeah, you kind of give up when you're sitting there and your pediatric attending calls Donna the APRN, "the doctor who gets all the cute patients."
 
I could care less if she has a phd. i still call her doctor
 
I could care less if she has a phd. i still call her doctor
That's because it gives you some sort of self-gratification, being a bitter RN and all. I read your "Doctor Woctor" post.
 
Guys,

The OP was questioning (trolling) if a PA could insist on being called "doctor". The answer is "No". As for the rest, outside of the hospital, you can be called whatever you want by your patients, but in the hospital "doctor" is more of a descriptive title for a specific member of the healthcare team. Some foriegn trained physicians do not hold doctorate degrees, yet are still called "doctor" while in the hospital and yet PhDs, PharmDs, and DPTs are not. Get over it. It is not the academic title in that setting that counts, it is the role filled.

- h
 
bell412 said:
i call my NP doctor all the time. I will continue.
Why?
 
Agreed.
Even if I had a Ph.D. (I don't yet) I would not feel right being called "doctor" in a clinical sense. Any Ph.D. I earned would be in an educational or public health focus. It would be highly inappropriate to call myself "doctor" in any way except for a teaching sense, and here on the west coast we're more comfortable with informal first names anyway.
To the person who wants to call her NP "doctor", that's just goofy and she should correct you if she hasn't already. If she already has, as stated before, and you insist, she's probably decided to let it go.
L.

FoughtFyr said:
Guys,

The OP was questioning (trolling) if a PA could insist on being called "doctor". The answer is "No". As for the rest, outside of the hospital, you can be called whatever you want by your patients, but in the hospital "doctor" is more of a descriptive title for a specific member of the healthcare team. Some foriegn trained physicians do not hold doctorate degrees, yet are still called "doctor" while in the hospital and yet PhDs, PharmDs, and DPTs are not. Get over it. It is not the academic title in that setting that counts, it is the role filled.

- h
 
bell412 said:
You're goofy like primadonna22274 said.
🙄 😀
 
There's a nut in every bunch. Even in mine, I'm afraid... 🙁
 
bell412 said:
i call my NP doctor all the time. I will continue.

Then you will continue being dumb :laugh:
 
Orchard said:
Then you will continue being dumb :laugh:

Honestly, there's no need for name-calling at this point. From my perspective, the title of Dr. in a hospital setting is one that comes with respect and responsibility. For me, it's not just something bestowed at the end of med school. I find it very awkward to be mistakingly called Dr. as a MS4, and always make it a point to correct people. In the future, as a resident, I'll probably still ask most of my patients to call me by my first name. By the time i'm an attending, I'll probably be comfortable with the idea that I've earned the Dr. title. I have no problem with anyone calling themselves Dr. or in Bell412's case, calling another nurse or PA "Doctor". If you really feel that you've earned the respect and the responsibility...fine, knock yourself out. If you need that extra bit of reassurance and the title gives you a little more confidence...more power to you. As long as it's not in a setting where patient care is compromised and patients become confused, i'm ok with it. Heck, I don't think Dr. J was ever a physician and Dr. Phil certainly isn't performing brain surgery, but I'm not going to argue with them. Do whatever makes you happy...all I know is that once I start calling myself Dr._______, I'll know that i've really earned it and deserved the responsibility.
 
Buck Strong said:
From my perspective, the title of Dr. in a hospital setting is one that comes with respect and responsibility. For me, it's not just something bestowed at the end of med school. I find it very awkward to be mistakingly called Dr. as a MS4, and always make it a point to correct people. In the future, as a resident, I'll probably still ask most of my patients to call me by my first name. By the time i'm an attending, I'll probably be comfortable with the idea that I've earned the Dr. title. I have no problem with anyone calling themselves Dr. or in Bell412's case, calling another nurse or PA "Doctor". If you really feel that you've earned the respect and the responsibility...fine, knock yourself out.

While I agree with your sentiment, I disagree wholeheartedly. It is a matter of patient safety. Let me give you an example. A code is called on the floor. Dr. Brown (an MD/DO internist) happens to be somewhat nearby. He/she wanders over to the large crowd gathering outside a room. Dr. Brown asks "is there a physician present?" and is told "yes, Dr. Smith is in the room". Dr. Brown leaves, never realizing that "Dr. Smith" is, in fact, a third year medical student. Now, it was not "Dr." Smith announceing themselves as a physician, but rather a nurse who had heard patients and other staff calling Mr. Smith "doctor" that created the problem. Sound far fetched? Actually happened in Chicago. Used several times at JCAHO meetings to demonstrate the problem of mid-levels being referred to as "Dr.".

Now it is one thing for an elderly patient to continue to call someone "doctor" after being corrected. That is fine, patient's choice. It is fine outside of the hospital for anyone to call anyone "Dr.". But staff in a healthcare facility should realize that word is not an academic title while in the faciltiy, it is a title of legal and ethical responsibility and not to be taken otherwise.

Remeber, for patient safety we should all work to minimize the chances of miscommunication where ever we can, there are enough we can't control...

- H
 
Military types routinely call their medics 'Doc', and this tradition has unintentionally translated over to some PA's who think it might be appropriate. It is not. I usually politely correct my patients the first time. If it continues, I don't make an issue of it. Usually those patients are in the minority.
 
guetzow said:
Military types routinely call their medics 'Doc', and this tradition has unintentionally translated over to some PA's who think it might be appropriate. It is not. I usually politely correct my patients the first time. If it continues, I don't make an issue of it. Usually those patients are in the minority.

It absolutely comes from the military. Likewise, when I was a medical student and still riding an FD ambulance I was always called "Doc". But in the hospital it simply shouldn't be tolerated from staff.

- H
 
I agree with you 100 percent, which is why i said:

"As long as it's not in a setting where patient care is compromised and patients become confused, i'm ok with it."

I'm glad we're on the same page.

FoughtFyr said:
While I agree with your sentiment, I disagree wholeheartedly. It is a matter of patient safety. Let me give you an example. A code is called on the floor. Dr. Brown (an MD/DO internist) happens to be somewhat nearby. He/she wanders over to the large crowd gathering outside a room. Dr. Brown asks "is there a physician present?" and is told "yes, Dr. Smith is in the room". Dr. Brown leaves, never realizing that "Dr. Smith" is, in fact, a third year medical student. Now, it was not "Dr." Smith announceing themselves as a physician, but rather a nurse who had heard patients and other staff calling Mr. Smith "doctor" that created the problem. Sound far fetched? Actually happened in Chicago. Used several times at JCAHO meetings to demonstrate the problem of mid-levels being referred to as "Dr.".

Now it is one thing for an elderly patient to continue to call someone "doctor" after being corrected. That is fine, patient's choice. It is fine outside of the hospital for anyone to call anyone "Dr.". But staff in a healthcare facility should realize that word is not an academic title while in the faciltiy, it is a title of legal and ethical responsibility and not to be taken otherwise.

Remeber, for patient safety we should all work to minimize the chances of miscommunication where ever we can, there are enough we can't control...

- H
 
Buck Strong said:
I agree with you 100 percent, which is why i said:

"As long as it's not in a setting where patient care is compromised and patients become confused, i'm ok with it."

I'm glad we're on the same page.

I guess my point is that it is hard to extinguish "habits" among staff once they've begun. For that reason, even as a sign of "respect", I bristle at the idea of anyone other than a physician being called "doctor" by other healthcare providers. It is far too hard to stop once you've started. And, IMNSHO, therefore can cause miscommunications at the worst possible times.

- H
 
Maybe the question should be "Do PA's want to be called Doctor?"


I can tell you i have a few good friends who are PA's (and excellent PA's) i asked this question to. They responded simply, "If i wanted to be called Doctor I would have went to Medical school".

Sure some may be called Doctor by patients who dont know any better and they may not correct them. This exists all the way from Techs, nurses, PA's NP's etc. That is a flaw in the person, since clearly if your allowing people to call you doctor then you wish you were one. (the military calling medics Doc's is a different thing).

Anyway, have a good one!
 
I concur. But really, isn't a more pertinent topic "Who the Hell wants to be called Doctor Nurse"?
 
guetzow said:
I concur. But really, isn't a more pertinent topic "Who the Hell wants to be called Doctor Nurse"?


We have an attending who is actually Dr. Nurse.
 
guetzow said:
I concur. But really, isn't a more pertinent topic "Who the Hell wants to be called Doctor Nurse"?

I believe the title of the thread was "Can't PAs be called Doctor?" Where the hell does "Doctor Nurse" play in?!? 😱 You do this with all your posts, twisting around the subject of the thread around so it invetiably becomes a nurse bashing forum. Not cool!! 😡 We're talking about PAs here. If you want to talk about the NPs that will all eventually have doctorate degrees by 2015, then start another thread. But don't come in here and contaminate good discussion with your bitterness. It's really a sad and pathetic statement to your character. 🙂
 
Yo Yo...Our infection control nurse was Ms Pasteur....... 🙂
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
Maybe the question should be "Do PA's want to be called Doctor?"


I can tell you i have a few good friends who are PA's (and excellent PA's) i asked this question to. They responded simply, "If i wanted to be called Doctor I would have went to Medical school".

Sure some may be called Doctor by patients who dont know any better and they may not correct them. This exists all the way from Techs, nurses, PA's NP's etc. That is a flaw in the person, since clearly if your allowing people to call you doctor then you wish you were one. (the military calling medics Doc's is a different thing).

Anyway, have a good one!

I agree with this. I do not want to be a doctor, yet patients call me one all the time. I ALWAYS correct them but they most often don't listen. What more can I do?
As for "Can PA's insist on being called doctor?" Yeah, they can, but they would be incorrect and look like a stupid ***** to everyone around them. Not to mention, making everyone in their profession, including me, look like a "wanna be doc". Most of us are most certainly not that. I would hope there are no idiot PA's out there "demanding to be called doc"! 👎

Pat
 
Wouldn't a PA representing him/herself as "Doctor" be ILLEGAL ??

That kinda simplifies things a bit right there, don't it? 🙄
 
That would be the realm of "DrNPs" 😉
 
If MDs wanted to be referred to as Doctor, fine.

But then why do they refer to HHAs, MAs, CNAs and office managers as the office nurse? "Nurse", too, is a restricted title that gets misused frequently by MDs.

If you want the title "Doctor" respected, please start showing respect to other titles.
 
Not to mention that it is illegal for them to represent unlicensed staff as "nurses," and that doing so leaves a doc wide open for fines, or worse, if caught.
 
They also apply for PA jobs while in med school. Interesting thread on that at The PA Forum.....
 
guetzow said:
That would be the realm of "DrNPs" 😉

You act like all nurses secretly want to be doctors...Gimme a break. Half of us don't even want to be nurses.
 
justmanda said:
You act like all nurses secretly want to be doctors...Gimme a break. Half of us don't even want to be nurses.

LOL! Too funny!
 
🙂)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 
Interesting to see a lot of people that I know here- Some post in as ill-advised a fashion here as I see on the other sites- You should all try not to base your opinion on any cadre of professionals resulting from their flawed thought processes.

I have a D.Sc. in surgical research- I chose a degree in the hard sciences because it best fit what I do in clinical practice- However, despite being an RN, a PA AND a Doctor, I must agree with all posters who have opined that the title MUST fit the environment- I really looked foreward to the "DR" title when I was writing my dissertation- However, upon graduation, I resolved that it just will not work- I am a worst case scenario type of guy- I don't want to waste all of my hard work just to lose my license over someone who thought I was a Physician and I could not offer sufficient proof as to the contrary perception- Avoiding the Dr title is an important first step- Beyond that, I cannot control what they call me- I just go by my first name-
 
justmanda said:
You act like all nurses secretly want to be doctors...Gimme a break. Half of us don't even want to be nurses.

No kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Can't argue with that 🙂
 
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