Career in sports podiatry

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BenPRunkle

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Right now I am not really sure on which career path I want to take. All I know is that I want to have a career in medicine that deals with sports and where the majority of my patients are athletes. I am leaning towards going to med school and trying to become an orthopod just because there is more of a variety of things to do in orthopedics, but I have recently been checking out podiatry and I was wondering what a career as a sports podiatrist would look like. Do you get to perform sports related foot and ankle surgeries? Do professional teams hire podiatrist? Thanks

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My undergraduate degree was in Kinesiology/Athletic therapy and Podiatry is a natural extension of this. In residency, I was lucky enough to treat lots of kids and lots of athletes so a podaitry practice can deal with a lot of athletes. One of our offices is right down the road from a major college and a major University so I end up seeing a good number of their athletes. As far as teams hiring Podiatrist...I haven't seen that much, but there are Podiatrists out there that do work with pro teams.

Check out the American Association of Podiatric Sports Medicine website. Its really a great site and may have a lot of good info for you. The current President of that organization, Dr. Langone, is super nice and may also be able to answer your questions. Good luck.
 
Thanks kidsfeet. I have also been wondering what the hours are like as a sports podiatrist and how often can you expect to be on call. Are you on call as often as an orthopod?
 
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Thanks kidsfeet. I have also been wondering what the hours are like as a sports podiatrist and how often can you expect to be on call. Are you on call as often as an orthopod?

You're welcome! Call is what you make it in Podiatry. If you do a lot of surgery and deal with high risk patients, expect to get called a lot.
 
At one of my interviews the interviewer used to be the podiatrist for the steelers and pirates. There is also a D.C. pod who is the team podiatrist for the redskins, wizards, and nationals so I think the positions are out there just probably hard to get. I heard that Barry is a good school to attend for sports medicine. One of the DPMs affiliated with that program works with the Miami heat.
 
At one of my interviews the interviewer used to be the podiatrist for the steelers and pirates. There is also a D.C. pod who is the team podiatrist for the redskins, wizards, and nationals so I think the positions are out there just probably hard to get. I heard that Barry is a good school to attend for sports medicine. One of the DPMs affiliated with that program works with the Miami heat.

Didn't know that. Sweet!
 
At one of my interviews the interviewer used to be the podiatrist for the steelers and pirates. There is also a D.C. pod who is the team podiatrist for the redskins, wizards, and nationals so I think the positions are out there just probably hard to get. I heard that Barry is a good school to attend for sports medicine. One of the DPMs affiliated with that program works with the Miami heat.
One of Barry's professors, Dr. Losito, is the Podiatrist for the Miami Heat and other teams. Some of my 3rd year classmates are in clinics at his hospital and are always taking pictures with the Heat guys when they come in for a check up. Lucky guys.
 
A few names come to mind on the west coast,

Dr. Oloff- San Francisco 49ers and SF Giants

Dr. Liebeskind- Men & Women national soccer teams/ World Cup...

Dr. Saxena- Olympic track & field trials, Stanford sports...
 
Thanks guys, what kind of path do you take after podiatry school in order to be performing sports medicine surgeries?
 
Thanks guys, what kind of path do you take after podiatry school in order to be performing sports medicine surgeries?

It takes years of persistence and pounding the pavement to cultivate this. Once you get out of residency, I would suggest finding an area that may serve you in this regard to practice in. Then join the AAPSM, and ask them to help you if they can. Then make it a point to go to games, volunteer your time at sports events, visit the local high schools and colleges/university and offer your services, and if you're good at what you do and personable, your time will come. Good luck!
 
Dr. Losito has a fellowship program that takes 1 fellow each year, post-residency. I'm sure feli, paulywog, and some of the other Barry guys can comment.
 
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Dr. Losito has a fellowship program that takes 1 fellow each year, post-residency. I'm sure feli, paulywog, and some of the other Barry guys can comment.

Wow very interesting. Do you know if its a CPME approved fellowship?
 
Wow very interesting. Do you know if its a CPME approved fellowship?

Fellowships that are not CPME approved are better. If your fellowship is CPME approved you are basically a 4th year resident. As a fellow you want to be treating some of your own patients, surgerizing and following up your own patients and learning if what you do and your decisions are working. You also want to work with someone who cares about your education and experience while a fellow and allows you to operate on their patients as well and teaches you "their" way.

CPME requires specific rotations, journal clubs and other academic meetings. You already did your residency, the time for rotations is over. A fellowship is for a specific focus to say that you are specifically trained in a certain area, that you now have an area of expertise.


About sports medicine: even if you do not work for a team or have a practice specifically designated sports medicine you will still get achilles tendonitis and ruptures, ankle sprains, turf toe, "shin splints"...

Treating high level athletes is not all it's cracked up to be. You have many pressures on you besides just getting the athlete well, like the coach, the temamates, the fans... Your concern should only be for the patient, but that becomes difficult, especially when you are highly replacable.

There are also now many teams that are paid by a local orthopedic group or hospital to be the official treating group of said team. THat's right, for marketing and bragging rights the docs/hospital pay the team. I'd rather get patients based on merrit and treat people that appreciate my services.

Just my oppinion
 
Fellowships that are not CPME approved are better. If your fellowship is CPME approved you are basically a 4th year resident. As a fellow you want to be treating some of your own patients, surgerizing and following up your own patients and learning if what you do and your decisions are working. You also want to work with someone who cares about your education and experience while a fellow and allows you to operate on their patients as well and teaches you "their" way.

CPME requires specific rotations, journal clubs and other academic meetings. You already did your residency, the time for rotations is over. A fellowship is for a specific focus to say that you are specifically trained in a certain area, that you now have an area of expertise.


About sports medicine: even if you do not work for a team or have a practice specifically designated sports medicine you will still get achilles tendonitis and ruptures, ankle sprains, turf toe, "shin splints"...

Treating high level athletes is not all it's cracked up to be. You have many pressures on you besides just getting the athlete well, like the coach, the temamates, the fans... Your concern should only be for the patient, but that becomes difficult, especially when you are highly replacable.

There are also now many teams that are paid by a local orthopedic group or hospital to be the official treating group of said team. THat's right, for marketing and bragging rights the docs/hospital pay the team. I'd rather get patients based on merrit and treat people that appreciate my services.

Just my oppinion

Excellent post!

I didn't know that whole "Fellowship" thingwas really the way you describe. Can I use that word "surgerize" in my vocabulary now😀??
 
I agree with the comments above, and this is NOT to discredit any of the DPM's listed above who are presently team DPM's for professional sports teams.

However, in many instances, the doctors that are chosen to be the "team docs" actually pay for that "privilege". I know that for a fact, because a friend of mine is the team orthopedic surgeon for a professional/NFL football team.

Yes, they do care about quality, but there are many quality orthopedic groups competing for those honored and prestigious titles and many professional sports teams KNOW that fact. It looks very good on your website, business cards, letterhead, etc., to state "team physician for the NFL, NHL, NL, AL, NBA, MSL, etc." Large groups have gotten into bidding wars over this "privilege".

This is not true for all professional sports teams, but I know it's true for many.

I played high level soccer throughout college and following college and developed a decent reputation treating unique soccer injuries. A professional soccer team approached me to be the team DPM, and I was honored and my ego was stroked, UNTIL they asked me how much I was willing to "bid" for that position!!!! I was shocked and my ego was shattered, since this was new to me. I was told my name would appear during all home games, in all the team literature, on the team website, etc., and that it was great publicity. But they wanted big bucks and I passed on the offer.

Once again, this is not true of all professional sports teams, but like anything else, it IS a business. That's why you will often see a player seek a surgical opinion or have a procedure performed by a surgeon not associated with the team or in another city. That's definitely a vote of "no confidence" in the team orthopedist.
 
I agree with the comments above, and this is NOT to discredit any of the DPM's listed above who are presently team DPM's for professional sports teams.

However, in many instances, the doctors that are chosen to be the "team docs" actually pay for that "privilege". I know that for a fact, because a friend of mine is the team orthopedic surgeon for a professional/NFL football team.

Yes, they do care about quality, but there are many quality orthopedic groups competing for those honored and prestigious titles and many professional sports teams KNOW that fact. It looks very good on your website, business cards, letterhead, etc., to state "team physician for the NFL, NHL, NL, AL, NBA, MSL, etc." Large groups have gotten into bidding wars over this "privilege".

This is not true for all professional sports teams, but I know it's true for many.

I played high level soccer throughout college and following college and developed a decent reputation treating unique soccer injuries. A professional soccer team approached me to be the team DPM, and I was honored and my ego was stroked, UNTIL they asked me how much I was willing to "bid" for that position!!!! I was shocked and my ego was shattered, since this was new to me. I was told my name would appear during all home games, in all the team literature, on the team website, etc., and that it was great publicity. But they wanted big bucks and I passed on the offer.

Once again, this is not true of all professional sports teams, but like anything else, it IS a business. That's why you will often see a player seek a surgical opinion or have a procedure performed by a surgeon not associated with the team or in another city. That's definitely a vote of "no confidence" in the team orthopedist.

Damn...I really had no idea.
 
I second the "having no idea". I mean, it makes perfect sense, just hadn't really thought about it from the teams' perspective.

PADPM must have been vacationing at his second home in St Barts...really came back with a bang. Great post.
 
Good thread. It's the bonafide truth that the high level sports teams have docs (of all specialties) bidding... either underbidding one another for a small salary - or sometimes bidding to pay for the title since it garners referrals. It's basically the same as why celebrities typically get pretty much everything from clothes to cars to other stuff for free or very low cost: tradeoff for the company's boost in marketing value. Sad but true.

Fellowships that are not CPME approved are better. If your fellowship is CPME approved you are basically a 4th year resident...
While I generally agree^, this could be a misleading statement.

IMO, it really depends on what the individual's goals are from the fellowship. If you want to teach at a pod school or possibly become a residency director or key attending, then the CPME ones are a good pick IMO; all of them involve you with a residency program and have the fellow teaching pod residents (often pod students also if in one of the pod school cities or a popular clerkship hospital). If you just want to build your skills and learn complex recon and possibly "real world" prac mgmt, then maybe one of the non-CPME ones is a better choice. You just have to do your homework and figure out what your goals out of the fellowship are.

CPME approved pod fellowships:
http://www.apma.org/Members/Education/CPMEAccreditation/Fellowships/CPME800updated608.aspx?FT=.pdf

ACFAS approved pod (err... "F&A surgery"?) fellowships:
http://www.acfas.org/Physicians/Content.aspx?id=2213

...there are also many other fellowships which aren't on recognized those lists: krabmas one with Dr. Rush, Dr. DiDominico in OH, practice mgmt one in KY, etc. While the ones not on those lists are often not included simpy because they haven't done the proper paperwork apps, you still have to be concious of that: you won't be able to say it's an approved or recognized fellowship. The "fellowship" you did was basically an underpaid associate / research machine year which benefits the "fellowship director" as much or more than the fellow. While you can list it on your CV if you like, lack of approval blurs the line (true fellowship vs associate job you are trying to pass off as a fellowship on your CV?) could potentially come into question if you apply for academic jobs. That may be important, and it may not. Again, it all depends on your end goals.

If I go for a fellowship, I think Hyer, DiDominico, or Baravarian would be most attractive... but that seems like a <5% possibility to me at this juncture. 3yrs is a ton of F&A surgery if you do a good program, and I am a lot more intimidated about learning the politics and finances of real practice than I am about publishing more or doing highly complex cases at this point. More training (via reading lit, conf, fellowship, etc) is always better, but once you know the anatomy well and you know the surgical instruments, you eventually have to get rid of the training wheels to do some real world learning and confidence building.
 
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The ACFAS list is "ACFAS Recognized Fellowships" there is no approval status. There is also no publication of the minmal requirements, which at this juncture I'm pretty sure is just filling out a form saying "yes, please advertise my fellowship on the ACFAS website"

Since there is no consistancy to the fellowships I don't think it will stop an academic placement, this depends where you want to go though.

At Hyer's program you will go alot of surgery. Didn't you do that in residency? How much follow-up of those procedures did you get? How many times did you decide when the elective case had to go back to the OR for a revision? IMO the fellowship should take your residency learning to the next level, either in a specialty area of podiatry or something that your residency maybe lacked.

As Feli stated, you do have to be aware that there are people out there looking to hire the cheap associate for a year and call you a fellow. You need to look for trust worthy people who have your intrest in mind.

My fellowship definitely benefits from me, but I think I got the better end of the deal. I take a bunch of call - weds and everyother weekend. I get to choose the weekends. But there is always an "attending" on-call with me for back-up. I have clinic 4 days a week from 12-6pm and average only 12 patients a day. If the clinic schedule doesn't fill no one is pressuring me, I don't get dumped on. I don't get all the DM patients. I probably have the least of these patients. I have full hospital and surgery schedule privileges and book my own cases. I also scrub the cases of the attendings of my choosing.

Also, I am pregnant, and they have been more than supportive of this situation, and understanding of the time I will need to take off.

They benefit from me by an extra set of hands to see overflow pt, I take care of the in-patients, I am available to assist on most cases, I take significant call.

I've done some awesome cases so far, but more importantly I am learning a different thought process than as a resident. For my patients I get to choose the surgery based on what I want, not what I think someone else thinks is the right answer. Then I get to follow the results. Not everyone wants this type of fellowship experience.
 
krabmas,

How did you go about landing your non-CPME accredited fellowship? Was it by word of mouth, did a INOVA alum hook it up for you, or did you actively seek out a specific Pod who liked to provide additional training to recent former residents?

Just curious.

from a friend of a friend word of mouth.
 
What does "ACFAS Recognized Fellowship" mean? As you put it, does it just mean that it is advertised on the ACFAS website?
 
I second the "having no idea". I mean, it makes perfect sense, just hadn't really thought about it from the teams' perspective.

PADPM must have been vacationing at his second home in St Barts...really came back with a bang. Great post.

Yes the "team Physicians" for major college and professional teams are bought positions. Often a univeristy based medical team will cover many of the teams for a significant fee.

Another little known fact is most larger high schools athletic trainers are paid for by the local orthopedic group. Hence injury means referral.
 
Hi! Thanks for all the good information. How competitive are the sports medicine fellowships? There are very few of them. What is the demand like for those spots? For example are there 5 people applying per spot or 100.
 
Yes the "team Physicians" for major college and professional teams are bought positions. Often a univeristy based medical team will cover many of the teams for a significant fee.

Another little known fact is most larger high schools athletic trainers are paid for by the local orthopedic group. Hence injury means referral.

Aren't these teams making enough money on endorsements? I just don't get it. Paying for prestige in medicine is just so backwards.

How can paying an Athletic trainer for "referrals" not violate Stark Laws?
 
Aren't these teams making enough money on endorsements? I just don't get it. Paying for prestige in medicine is just so backwards.

How can paying an Athletic trainer for "referrals" not violate Stark Laws?


Doesn't Stark only apply to Federal plans like Medicare/Medicaid?
 
Doesn't Stark only apply to Federal plans like Medicare/Medicaid?

That depends on the specific agreement. If these ATs are actually employed by the Orthos, then no government kickbacks laws will apply. If they however aren't employed, but are private ATs, there are federal anti kickback laws, but I think your right about the name itself. It may not be called Stark, but the same rules apply.
 
That depends on the specific agreement. If these ATs are actually employed by the Orthos, then no government kickbacks laws will apply. If they however aren't employed, but are private ATs, there are federal anti kickback laws, but I think your right about the name itself. It may not be called Stark, but the same rules apply.

Then if true, I would gues the practice gives the school a "donation" very close to the cost of the AT.
 
Yes the "team Physicians" for major college and professional teams are bought positions. Often a univeristy based medical team will cover many of the teams for a significant fee.

Another little known fact is most larger high schools athletic trainers are paid for by the local orthopedic group. Hence injury means referral.

Well we are team docs for 2 local high schools, a college, community college, and professional baseball team (minor league) and we don't pay a penny. No arrangements. Also, I'm not really sure what you all consider 'podiatric sports medicine'. What would you see in that fellowship that you wouldn't see anywhere else? I mean who needs to do a sports med fellowship to do achilles injuries and scopes? I think that's a rather routine thing.
 
newankle,

Please note in my original post that I stated it occurs in "many" not all sports teams, and I also stated "this is not true for all professional sports teams, but I know it's true for many".

So there will always be exceptions such as the teams your practice is involved with, but there continue to be a lot of teams that expect the treating doctors to pay for that privilege.

dtrack22,

Sorry to disappoint you big guy, but I don't have a palace in St. Barts. One of our docs is leaving the practice due to a disability, and as a result I've been working hours you don't want to even know about. Our young associates simply can't handle the load, therefore the partners have to pick up the slack. I've probably been averaging 12-14 hours a day.

The whole problem with our new associates over the past few years will actually be the topic of a new thread I'm going to start. It's starting to anger me and my partners, since we pay very well, yet these new hires are "too good" to do the work that WE have been doing for over 20 years and in some cases over 30 years. They don't want to pay their dues, but don't want to do anything that's not "glamorous". Once again, that will be a new thread when I have the time.
 
Well we are team docs for 2 local high schools, a college, community college, and professional baseball team (minor league) and we don't pay a penny. No arrangements. Also, I'm not really sure what you all consider 'podiatric sports medicine'. What would you see in that fellowship that you wouldn't see anywhere else? I mean who needs to do a sports med fellowship to do achilles injuries and scopes? I think that's a rather routine thing.

Is it possible to do reconstructive foot and ankle surgery without a specific reconstructive foot and ankle fellowship? - yes

Is it possible to be a pediatric podiatrist without a pediatric podiatric fellowship? - yes

Is it possible to be a sports medicine podiatrist without a sports med fellowship? - yes

Is is possible to be a diabetic limb salvage podiatrist without that fellowship? - yes

Might it be easier to advertise yourself to the local community and local docs if you've has fellowship training in the specific are of interest? - yes

No one knows, but you if your fellowship actually increased your knowledge further than residency, but the general medical community appreciates fellowships and understands what they are, whereas they have no idea what a PMS-36 is.

IMO - Fellowships are about getting training in a specific area of interest so you can market yourself to the community as the authority in that area of interest.
 
Is it possible to do reconstructive foot and ankle surgery without a specific reconstructive foot and ankle fellowship? - yes

Is it possible to be a pediatric podiatrist without a pediatric podiatric fellowship? - yes

Is it possible to be a sports medicine podiatrist without a sports med fellowship? - yes

Is is possible to be a diabetic limb salvage podiatrist without that fellowship? - yes

Might it be easier to advertise yourself to the local community and local docs if you've has fellowship training in the specific are of interest? - yes

No one knows, but you if your fellowship actually increased your knowledge further than residency, but the general medical community appreciates fellowships and understands what they are, whereas they have no idea what a PMS-36 is.

IMO - Fellowships are about getting training in a specific area of interest so you can market yourself to the community as the authority in that area of interest.

I disagree with you at this point in the "Fellowship" chronology.

I see fellowships more as filling the gaps. Once you get out into practice, no one really cares about that to be perfectly honest. You make your reputation by what you do rather than what you did. What you did in fellowship may help very slightly in this regard, but by no means can you lean on this as a marketing point imho. There are many practitioners out there who have made a niche practice in some of these subspecialties without ever having done a "fellowship". I'm only being honest, but do you really think you can compete with them, simply due to a fellowship? If there is no one in the community who will be in your niche market, you think a fellowship will really give you a leg up? If your community doesn't know about it, do you think anyone will care? No one has the slightest clue what a Podiatric Fellowship is in my community. I helped with a Diabetic Limb Salvage Fellowship for a time, and the graduates thought that they could walk into any community and be professed as THE Charcot/Diabetic Limb Salvage experts. They were dead wrong. Things just don't roll that way outside of the academic bubble.

I get a lot more mileage by telling people that my undergraduate degree was in Exercise Science/Athletic Therapy and tell them I treated most of the UNC Soccer team who were from Texas (many at the time were) when I was in residency in Houston.

I treat and lecture about podopediatrics because I did a tremendous amount of peds in residency and felt comfortable enough in practice to tackle this patient population. There are no podopediatric fellowships currently, and even though some residents participate in the Baja Project and other philanthropic work in residency, this is not what you are going to see in practice most of the time with podopeds. Not only that, but the competition for those complex cases from Pediatric Orthopedists is overwhelming unless you get lucky.

Its just my 2 cents, but I've been tracking this trend for some time now. It just doesn't add up to me quite yet. Especially for those that have done 3 years in residency. If you didn't get it in 3 years, one extra year may or may not be enough to really expand your knowledge base. I could be wrong though.
 
From what I've read some people do fellowships because they attended a weak residency program and feel that they need more practice before they venture out on their own. This wouldn't be a sportsmedicine type residency but probably a residency that is more surgically based
 
From what I've read some people do fellowships because they attended a weak residency program and feel that they need more practice before they venture out on their own. This wouldn't be a sportsmedicine type residency but probably a residency that is more surgically based

I cant imagine this comment is going to endear you to the attendings on this forum
 
Possibly not, but if his statement is accurate, those who take offense have a lot to learn.

I have a more PC view as to if you were not exposed to much Sports Medicine in residency and its an intereset of yours, and you feel you can give up another year before going into practice and starting to make money/pay back loans, why not?
 
The whole problem with our new associates over the past few years will actually be the topic of a new thread I'm going to start. It's starting to anger me and my partners, since we pay very well, yet these new hires are "too good" to do the work that WE have been doing for over 20 years and in some cases over 30 years. They don't want to pay their dues, but don't want to do anything that's not "glamorous". Once again, that will be a new thread when I have the time.

WOW!!! Where are you finding all of these DIVAS???
 
From what I've read some people do fellowships because they attended a weak residency program and feel that they need more practice before they venture out on their own. This wouldn't be a sportsmedicine type residency but probably a residency that is more surgically based
Yes and no. Back when residencies were 1yr, people who went for the few 2nd yr spots were "crazy"... but today, they're about the only ones trained at that time doing RRA work.

Some DPM fellowships now are sought out by people who did PPMR, POR, PSR-12, etc type antiquated residency models and want another year of surg to possibly be elgible for ABPS cert or otherwise secure surgical privileges for their practice. Some fellowships are just done by ppl who want elite skills, want to publish/lecture, want to go for academic jobs, etc.

Like we said, doing a fellowship depends on your goals. It certainly will get you a leg up on academic jobs (hospitals recruiting for a new or replacement residency/fellowship director or core faculty, pod schools recruiting faculty, etc). It also separates your resume from the pack a bit when you go to look for jobs, esp the more competitive ones. I got a lot of calls from recruiters, and they usually ask if you did a fellowship. All other things equal, who do you think a job would go to... 3yr guy with fellowship or 3yr guy without?
 
Yes and no. Back when residencies were 1yr, people who went for the few 2nd yr spots were "crazy"... but today, they're about the only ones trained at that time doing RRA work.

Some DPM fellowships now are sought out by people who did PPMR, POR, PSR-12, etc type antiquated residency models and want another year of surg to possibly be elgible for ABPS cert or otherwise secure surgical privileges for their practice. Some fellowships are just done by ppl who want elite skills, want to publish/lecture, want to go for academic jobs, etc.

Like we said, doing a fellowship depends on your goals. It certainly will get you a leg up on academic jobs (hospitals recruiting for a new or replacement residency/fellowship director or core faculty, pod schools recruiting faculty, etc). It also separates your resume from the pack a bit when you go to look for jobs, esp the more competitive ones. I got a lot of calls from recruiters, and they usually ask if you did a fellowship. All other things equal, who do you think a job would go to... 3yr guy with fellowship or 3yr guy without?

I gotta disagree with you about the academic job thing as well as with recruiters.

If a recruiter asks if you had a fellowship, what exactly are they expecting? I've been out 8 years now and was in the mix just about the time fellowships started hitting their stride.

I did three years of residency and have a faculty appointment at the medical school. I treat Charcot, Sports injuries, peds and a good mix of all things podiatry and never did a fellowship.

I don't know of any residency programs that look for fellowship training to become a residency director. I don't even know if that's preferred at this point. The only academic requirement to become a residency director is to be Board Certified. You don't even need RRA certification to be a director for a 3 year program.

All things being equal, if a potential employer is only looking for credentials over what really matters, I'd run away from that employer screaming. Training means very little in that regard in the real world tbh. You can be the best trained 3 year RRA masterblaster with a Fellowship of the gods, but if you're a jerk, you won't last long.

That being said, what's a competitive job out there? Open up your own practice. Be your own boss. No one will care about your fellowship in that situation. If you're doing a fellowship to be more competitive in the job market, I'm afraid you've already missed the boat. You're a doctor. Do it for the love of what you do and go hang out your own shingle. It will be infinitely more satisfying when you make it.
 
I guess I should somewhat recant my previous statement about those saying that they attended a weak residency. Rather I should say that some I guess come out of residency with a lack of confidence in their abilities to perform certain procedures, and they feel that one more year training would put them more up to par. Whether that lack of confidence came from not so strong training or from other personal reasons I don't know. I would think that doing a fellowship would do nothing but help you. If a hospital, ortho group, or academic instution was choosing b/t a person who did a fellowship or one who did not (who had equal experience) I'm sure they would choose the fellow because it would give that institution more status which equals more market. Of course I have no experience dealing with any of this, I just enjoy thinking about talking about it.
 
I gotta disagree with you about the academic job thing as well as with recruiters.

If a recruiter asks if you had a fellowship, what exactly are they expecting? I've been out 8 years now and was in the mix just about the time fellowships started hitting their stride.

I did three years of residency and have a faculty appointment at the medical school. I treat Charcot, Sports injuries, peds and a good mix of all things podiatry and never did a fellowship.

I don't know of any residency programs that look for fellowship training to become a residency director. I don't even know if that's preferred at this point. The only academic requirement to become a residency director is to be Board Certified. You don't even need RRA certification to be a director for a 3 year program.

All things being equal, if a potential employer is only looking for credentials over what really matters, I'd run away from that employer screaming. Training means very little in that regard in the real world tbh. You can be the best trained 3 year RRA masterblaster with a Fellowship of the gods, but if you're a jerk, you won't last long.

That being said, what's a competitive job out there? Open up your own practice. Be your own boss. No one will care about your fellowship in that situation. If you're doing a fellowship to be more competitive in the job market, I'm afraid you've already missed the boat. You're a doctor. Do it for the love of what you do and go hang out your own shingle. It will be infinitely more satisfying when you make it.

Not everyone wants to hang their own shingle.

Not everyone wants to treat everything that walks thru the door.

I respect the person that cares enough about their potential patient population to get that extra year of training.

I think the reason that lots of pod residents are starting to look at fellowships is that our training is so intgrated with MDs. The attendings that I respected the most did a fellowship, they sacrificed for one more year, or 6 months for that extra training. The general orthos could have gone out and got jobs paying $300K or so, but spent another year making $50K or less potentially limiting their lifetime earning potential (see JBJS article on fellowships and earning potential - it is very interesting which ortho specialties pay in the long run) so they could be a specialist in something. They did not want to be the jack of all trades and master of none. Many of my podiatry aquaintances doing fellowships also attended highly integrated residencies where they worked closely with fellowship trained plastic surgeons and fellowship trained orthopedic surgeons. If this is the example you see and they are successful and accomplished surgeons, wouldn't you want to emmulate them?

The people that I chose to be my mentors based on their style as a surgeon and as a teacher were all fellowship trained. The plastic surgeon trained for 10 years... including internship, gen surg residency, plastic surg residency/fellowship.

The orthopedic congenital hand surgeon did 5 years of orthopedics residency 1 year of hand fellowship and 6 months of pediatric congenital hand fellowship. This was certainly not to expand the scope of practice. They do the entire upper extremity , but mostly the hand and forearm. They take no general call and do no general orthopedic cases on other parts of the body except maybe the occasional desyndacyly of the toes.

If these are the people that we are now training with it becomes second nature, the next thing to do, a fellowship.

During my second year I decided I would do a fellowship. This was very early in my 2nd year. The only other person to graduate from Inova and do a fellowship was John Steinberg. It was thought that if you graduate from Inova you don't need a fellowship. Yes, this is true, you do not need a fellowship, but I wanted one and was in the position to get it. Fellowships are not looking for the person they can help the most with their fellowship, they want the person who best represents them and does the best work, the most qualified. So it is less likely the person needing the most help that gets the fellowship. Since I was not close to graduating I had no idea if I thought I would be prepared to practice or not from residency. None of my senior residents seemed to be nervous about going out to practice and no one ever called after graduating to say, oh no... you need a fellowship.

After seeing fellowship trained surgeon, one after the other and learning from them, it just seemed like the next step.

I see nothing wrong with having a year more confidence and training under my belt. When I do go to work, I plan to work with residents and I would like to be confident enough to hand over the knife and trust that I can fix what they may screw-up. This was the difference that I saw between accomplished surgeons and not, doesn't matter specialty, but fellowship training ( I think) played a big roll.
 
I gotta disagree with you about the academic job thing as well as with recruiters.

If a recruiter asks if you had a fellowship, what exactly are they expecting? I've been out 8 years now and was in the mix just about the time fellowships started hitting their stride.

I did three years of residency and have a faculty appointment at the medical school. I treat Charcot, Sports injuries, peds and a good mix of all things podiatry and never did a fellowship.

I don't know of any residency programs that look for fellowship training to become a residency director. I don't even know if that's preferred at this point. The only academic requirement to become a residency director is to be Board Certified. You don't even need RRA certification to be a director for a 3 year program.

All things being equal, if a potential employer is only looking for credentials over what really matters, I'd run away from that employer screaming. Training means very little in that regard in the real world tbh. You can be the best trained 3 year RRA masterblaster with a Fellowship of the gods, but if you're a jerk, you won't last long.

That being said, what's a competitive job out there? Open up your own practice. Be your own boss. No one will care about your fellowship in that situation. If you're doing a fellowship to be more competitive in the job market, I'm afraid you've already missed the boat. You're a doctor. Do it for the love of what you do and go hang out your own shingle. It will be infinitely more satisfying when you make it.


Kidsfeet,

In actuality, I don't believe that it's actually a requirement at the present time for a residency director to be ABPS certified.

I have never "bashed" a residency program in all my years, with ONE exception. There is a residency program in Philadelphia that is run by a doctor that is DEFINITELY not ABPS certified and that is one program that I would highly recommend any student not even consider in the worst of situations.

You can look up all Philly programs to find out the program I'm referring to, but I know this as a FACT. My friend hired on the this program's former residents "cheap" due to the poor training (he hired the resident for home visits, nursing homes, palliative care, simple surgical procedures, etc.) and told me about the program. Being the inquisitive guy I am, I looked into his comments and lo and behold the information is 100% accurate. Scary stuff.
 
Not everyone wants to hang their own shingle.

Not everyone wants to treat everything that walks thru the door.

I respect the person that cares enough about their potential patient population to get that extra year of training.

I think the reason that lots of pod residents are starting to look at fellowships is that our training is so intgrated with MDs. The attendings that I respected the most did a fellowship, they sacrificed for one more year, or 6 months for that extra training. The general orthos could have gone out and got jobs paying $300K or so, but spent another year making $50K or less potentially limiting their lifetime earning potential (see JBJS article on fellowships and earning potential - it is very interesting which ortho specialties pay in the long run) so they could be a specialist in something. They did not want to be the jack of all trades and master of none. Many of my podiatry aquaintances doing fellowships also attended highly integrated residencies where they worked closely with fellowship trained plastic surgeons and fellowship trained orthopedic surgeons. If this is the example you see and they are successful and accomplished surgeons, wouldn't you want to emmulate them?

The people that I chose to be my mentors based on their style as a surgeon and as a teacher were all fellowship trained. The plastic surgeon trained for 10 years... including internship, gen surg residency, plastic surg residency/fellowship.

The orthopedic congenital hand surgeon did 5 years of orthopedics residency 1 year of hand fellowship and 6 months of pediatric congenital hand fellowship. This was certainly not to expand the scope of practice. They do the entire upper extremity , but mostly the hand and forearm. They take no general call and do no general orthopedic cases on other parts of the body except maybe the occasional desyndacyly of the toes.

If these are the people that we are now training with it becomes second nature, the next thing to do, a fellowship.

During my second year I decided I would do a fellowship. This was very early in my 2nd year. The only other person to graduate from Inova and do a fellowship was John Steinberg. It was thought that if you graduate from Inova you don't need a fellowship. Yes, this is true, you do not need a fellowship, but I wanted one and was in the position to get it. Fellowships are not looking for the person they can help the most with their fellowship, they want the person who best represents them and does the best work, the most qualified. So it is less likely the person needing the most help that gets the fellowship. Since I was not close to graduating I had no idea if I thought I would be prepared to practice or not from residency. None of my senior residents seemed to be nervous about going out to practice and no one ever called after graduating to say, oh no... you need a fellowship.

After seeing fellowship trained surgeon, one after the other and learning from them, it just seemed like the next step.

I see nothing wrong with having a year more confidence and training under my belt. When I do go to work, I plan to work with residents and I would like to be confident enough to hand over the knife and trust that I can fix what they may screw-up. This was the difference that I saw between accomplished surgeons and not, doesn't matter specialty, but fellowship training ( I think) played a big roll.


I understand that not everyone wants to hang their own shingle, but the reality of the situation is that you may be forced to do so at one point or another, and you should be prepared.

I'm sorry to say but as a new practitioner you should want to treat everything that walks in your door. Not everyone will have the luxury of getting a job with the dynamic new Ortho group down the road who will hand all their foot and ankle cases to you on a silver platter. Everyone refers to that Pod that got hired by some fantastic group. Good for them. This is NOT the norm. If you're not prepared to treat everything foot and ankle, you will have a very rude awakening when you get into practice.

The example you give is a poor one concerning the hand orthos. They do take general ortho call unless there is hand call at their hospital in which case they take ALL the hand call and excluded from General Ortho call. I've been on ED committees and this is a nightmare for the hand guys. Two hand guys in town take ALL the hand call at one of the hospitals. Do you want it? You can have it.

We already subspecialize. As I mentioned earlier, if you do a Sports Medicine fellowship, how much is that going to help you in practice if all you get is trauma in that Ortho group you're in? That group will already have a Sports Med Ortho inhouse. If you get into a Pod group that has been around for 30 years, you think they will hand off all their sports med stuff to you just because you did a Fellowship? If you go out on your own, it will be 3-5 years before you can gain enough of a reputation to get those patients, unless of course there is that big podiatry group in the same town who has been doing that for 30 years. You think all of a sudden your going to show up with that Fellowship abnd the PCPs are going to change their referral patterns because you're the expert? This happens all the time. Once out of residency/fellowship, you are the new kid in town. You have to EARN the reputation regardless of where you end up in practice or who you end up working for.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you have to be realistic. Do the fellowships because you want the education. The whole fellowship thing has not progressed enough to really make THAT big of a difference. Subspecialties are nice, but they won't pay the bills in our profession. I'm nationally know for lecturing on podopediatrics. Some can make a career out of treating that patient population, but if I tried that, my practice would not survive more than a month or two. Treat it all. Make a name for yourself, and the patients will find you. Don't expect that what you did in residency/fellowship will follow that precisely. How many people like John Steinberg (who I worked with when he did his Fellowship in San Antonio, and is likely one of the brightest people I've ever met in any profession) are there out there? He is the exception. And he works hard at it, believe me. He did his fellowship and worked his tail off to get the accolades he gets after teh fact. He used his fellowship as a stepping stone to further his education and then used that as a way to break into academics and lecturing. He is one in 12 000.
 
I understand that not everyone wants to hang their own shingle, but the reality of the situation is that you may be forced to do so at one point or another, and you should be prepared.

I'm sorry to say but as a new practitioner you should want to treat everything that walks in your door. Not everyone will have the luxury of getting a job with the dynamic new Ortho group down the road who will hand all their foot and ankle cases to you on a silver platter. Everyone refers to that Pod that got hired by some fantastic group. Good for them. This is NOT the norm. If you're not prepared to treat everything foot and ankle, you will have a very rude awakening when you get into practice.

The example you give is a poor one concerning the hand orthos. They do take general ortho call unless there is hand call at their hospital in which case they take ALL the hand call and excluded from General Ortho call. I've been on ED committees and this is a nightmare for the hand guys. Two hand guys in town take ALL the hand call at one of the hospitals. Do you want it? You can have it.

We already subspecialize. As I mentioned earlier, if you do a Sports Medicine fellowship, how much is that going to help you in practice if all you get is trauma in that Ortho group you're in? That group will already have a Sports Med Ortho inhouse. If you get into a Pod group that has been around for 30 years, you think they will hand off all their sports med stuff to you just because you did a Fellowship? If you go out on your own, it will be 3-5 years before you can gain enough of a reputation to get those patients, unless of course there is that big podiatry group in the same town who has been doing that for 30 years. You think all of a sudden your going to show up with that Fellowship abnd the PCPs are going to change their referral patterns because you're the expert? This happens all the time. Once out of residency/fellowship, you are the new kid in town. You have to EARN the reputation regardless of where you end up in practice or who you end up working for.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but you have to be realistic. Do the fellowships because you want the education. The whole fellowship thing has not progressed enough to really make THAT big of a difference. Subspecialties are nice, but they won't pay the bills in our profession. I'm nationally know for lecturing on podopediatrics. Some can make a career out of treating that patient population, but if I tried that, my practice would not survive more than a month or two. Treat it all. Make a name for yourself, and the patients will find you. Don't expect that what you did in residency/fellowship will follow that precisely. How many people like John Steinberg (who I worked with when he did his Fellowship in San Antonio, and is likely one of the brightest people I've ever met in any profession) are there out there? He is the exception. And he works hard at it, believe me. He did his fellowship and worked his tail off to get the accolades he gets after teh fact. He used his fellowship as a stepping stone to further his education and then used that as a way to break into academics and lecturing. He is one in 12 000.

Thank you for telling me all about a man that I worked with for the passed 3 years. You knew him when, I know him now. I agree he worked hard for what he has and also had some luck and good timing.

I'm not saying that I will not have to treat it all at some point, but if I don't want to I don't have to. I see nothing wrong with referring cases that I do not want or don't feel comfortable treating. As much as this is a business it is also medicine and there is a patient attached to that foot. I believe in doing what is right for the patient, based on my training, and if that means referring then that is what I will do.

I think you are being very closed minded about needing to hang a shingle and needing to treat it all. If you work hard, are in the right location and have the right set up you can make the subspecialty work.

As for the hand surgeon example I gave, yes most hand surgeons take lots of painful call. The one that I am speaking of does specifically congenital hand deformity and takes no call.

Typically the podiatrist that does a fellowship is not looking to get hired by the typical podiatry practice. They are probably looking for the right orthopedic practice or University/Hospital job.

But maybe you are right. Don't dream big, don't work to reach your goals. Just settle for the job down the road and stop your training early so you can start making money as soon as possible. Sorry, that road is not for me. I have a master plan in the works. It might not work out exactly as I plan, but that is OK. At least I went for it.

"you miss all the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretsky
 
Thank you for telling me all about a man that I worked with for the passed 3 years. You knew him when, I know him now. I agree he worked hard for what he has and also had some luck and good timing.

I'm not saying that I will not have to treat it all at some point, but if I don't want to I don't have to. I see nothing wrong with referring cases that I do not want or don't feel comfortable treating. As much as this is a business it is also medicine and there is a patient attached to that foot. I believe in doing what is right for the patient, based on my training, and if that means referring then that is what I will do.

I think you are being very closed minded about needing to hang a shingle and needing to treat it all. If you work hard, are in the right location and have the right set up you can make the subspecialty work.

As for the hand surgeon example I gave, yes most hand surgeons take lots of painful call. The one that I am speaking of does specifically congenital hand deformity and takes no call.

Typically the podiatrist that does a fellowship is not looking to get hired by the typical podiatry practice. They are probably looking for the right orthopedic practice or University/Hospital job.

But maybe you are right. Don't dream big, don't work to reach your goals. Just settle for the job down the road and stop your training early so you can start making money as soon as possible. Sorry, that road is not for me. I have a master plan in the works. It might not work out exactly as I plan, but that is OK. At least I went for it.

"you miss all the shots you don't take" Wayne Gretsky

Close minded...maybe. Only because I've been down that road and know that you need to be prepared to deal with any scenario.

Your sarcasm is duly noted. Having a master plan is excellent. I admire you for thinking that way. having all your eggs in one basket is not a bright idea I'm afraid. If you don't have a back up plan, where you can still achieve what you want to achieve but in a less direct manner, you may get stuck out in the cold. The goal is just as important as the journey. If you only have one journey in mind, you may never reach your goal.

I did 3 years of residency and felt I was extremely well trained over those 3 years. The first year was basically as a medical intern at a Medical School. The following two were in a very intensive surgical residency where I participated in over 2000 procedures. I saw everything from peds to sports medicine to trauma to cutting Grandma's toenails and everything in between.

I've been there done that Krabmas. I have achieved much more in my short career than I could have imagined. I'm grateful for the lessons I've learned, even though I got screwed worse than you can possibly imagine when I was an associate. PM sometime and I'll tell you all about it if you like. I came out of it older, wiser and much more careful.

I hope you get to where you're going the first time around. If you do, thank your lucky stars.
 
Close minded...maybe. Only because I've been down that road and know that you need to be prepared to deal with any scenario.

Your sarcasm is duly noted. Having a master plan is excellent. I admire you for thinking that way. having all your eggs in one basket is not a bright idea I'm afraid. If you don't have a back up plan, where you can still achieve what you want to achieve but in a less direct manner, you may get stuck out in the cold. The goal is just as important as the journey. If you only have one journey in mind, you may never reach your goal.

I did 3 years of residency and felt I was extremely well trained over those 3 years. The first year was basically as a medical intern at a Medical School. The following two were in a very intensive surgical residency where I participated in over 2000 procedures. I saw everything from peds to sports medicine to trauma to cutting Grandma's toenails and everything in between.

I've been there done that Krabmas. I have achieved much more in my short career than I could have imagined. I'm grateful for the lessons I've learned, even though I got screwed worse than you can possibly imagine when I was an associate. PM sometime and I'll tell you all about it if you like. I came out of it older, wiser and much more careful.

I hope you get to where you're going the first time around. If you do, thank your lucky stars.

of course there is a back-up plan but if I keep leaning in that, it will become my plan.
 
I feel as if I have to voice my opinion on this issue between Kidsfeet and Krabmas, because I undestand both points of view.

I believe that Kidsfeet is attempting to be realistic due to his past experience and Krabmas is being idealistic due to her present situation.

Neither one is wrong, nor does it mean that Kidsfeet has his glass half empty,etc. He is simply basing his comments on his experiences, and that's all any of us can do at any time.

There is no wrong or right answer to this matter.

I don't believe that a fellowship in podiatry at this point in time is as crucial as it may be in other medical specialties. For example, it is crucial for a pediatrician that wants to specialize in pediatric gatroenterology to do a fellowship in GI, etc. It is crucial for a radiologist who wants to specialize in interventional radiology to do a fellowship in that field. Without these fellowships, these people aren't going to get a job in their chosen fields. They can't hang a shingle without in those fields without a fellowship.

I've yet to find a circumstance when additional training or education is anything other than beneficial for all involved, and would encourage every graduate to take advantage of every opportunity such as Krabmas.

However, as important as a fellowship may be to advance your knowledge and skills, I don't believe it's "crucial" at the present time in our profession.

I do agree with Kidsfeet, that whatever your expertise and past training, actions speak louder than words or CV's. Unless you're the only game in town, you will have to earn your reputation via your skills and knowledge and prove yourself, despite the best of training. Doctors will not simply alter their referral patterns because you look good on paper.

I also don't believe that Kidsfeet was implying that you had to "do it all" and work outside your comfort zone. Although I can't speak for him, my impression of what he was saying was that when you first open your own doors, despite your specialized training, you should be happy to perform the major surgical procedures you were trained to do AND be happy to take care of Mrs. Smith's mycotic nails. I don't believe he was saying that you should treat pediatric deformities if that is not in your comfort zone and something you really had no training for during your residency.

With everything our practice does, I do not perform pediatric surgery, and refer those cases out.

So, the bottom line is that I don't believe that Kidsfeet is being negative or a pessimist, I simply believe he's being honest and realistic based on his past experience. Similarly, I believe that Krabmas has an amazing opportunity that I wish I had and would never have passed up, and she has a "game plan" and strategy set for her future, which is great. She is basing her decisions on HER experiences, which fortunately have been positive up to this point, and hopefully will continue that way until she retires some day.
 
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You hit the nail on the head PADPM. Thanks for that.

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, do none of the partners deal with peds? Or any of your past associates? That would be a huge niche for a new associate to fill. Anyone out there???
 
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