Caribbean Schools!!!!! Why/Why not?

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"Nah not really, if someone gets a 2.1 cause they were too lazy then they're absolutely not intelligent at all. You don't go through 4 years of getting low marks and not changing your habits and being "intelligent." "

Dude, by your logic, Im a *****. I had a 2.6 for several years in community college due to being a slacker and immature. I scored a 36 on the MCAT, a 250 USMLE, and a 732 COMLEX. Your logic is flawed, or your definition of intelligence is warped.
 
nicgb24 said:
Everyone is different and an off shore school might be perfect for some... like possibly for me.
I have received (really early... like September 2011 notice for an August 2012 start) admission to a DO program yet am still looking at AUC because it would allow me to finish my degree in 38 months.
I am a 30 year old health care attorney with a history degree from Johns Hopkins with a 27 MCAT and below average science grades at best. I sat for the MCAT with only a few med school pre reqs, all taken over 7 years prior.
I have spoken to physicians across the country (including those at my former employer Cleveland Clinic) and all feel that board scores, rotations and extras might make up for attending a foreign med school. Unless you are at Harvard or Chicago or the like or are top of the class with USMLE scores to match, you will find it difficult to match to super selective programs, even more so if you are a DO. This coming from the faculty at the DO school I where I was accepted. As a DO, you also must sit for the COMLEX.
For me, the time factor and the high USMLE pass rate makes AUC a good option for me. The pass rate is higher than it is for the DO school (both COMLEX and USMLE) I was accepted in to for admission.
Click to expand...


Put in a good word for me at your D.O. School. You can go to AUC, and I'll go for the DO. I have no problem with that. In fact I would appreciate it!


Obviously super-selective programs is out of the question. But thats not the point. The point is for anybody pre-med (sterotypically a highschool or college student, possibly masters) who is looking to become a doctor (MD, as it is most prominent in USA, as the sub-thread title implies) and who wants to do Residency (implying getting a license to practice as a physician) in the United States, going to the Caribbean is not smart. Caribbean education blocks off many of the "average" residencies, clerkship options, and there are licensure issues [outside of the big 4 - Go read ValueMD]

The match rate is more important than the pass rate. The competition much more cutthroat and much much larger, compared to going to a US Med School.

Also, the people you spoke with said "might" not 'guaranteed to'. I would love to see a student from AUC matched at Cleveland Clinic for IM or Neurology. Acutally thats what I want to do. Statistically that will not be happening. I'll just have to work hard and see - hopefully.

Also, finishing the degree and getting a job with a salary are two different things. Not all have your "connections". I surely dont. I wish i knew people at the Cleveland Clinic, so I could have decent residency options. Even assuming you decide to forego residency, AUC is still not a smart decision.

You can probably get great recommendations, take a few science courses, and get into a US MD program. People here wont necessarily. You have a career to go back to, potentially. It may be an option for you. Is it an option of most people who will read this thread in the near future? I doubt it. Likely they will not have experience / employers / Ivy League stamp.

Then again, you're the attorney.





By swimming in a pond, you will never know what its like to swim in the Ocean.



http://www.valuemd.com/american-uni...lt-auc-terms-passing-classes-amount-work.html

http://www.valuemd.com/american-uni...-muggle-blogspot-carribbean-medical-blog.html

http://www.valuemd.com/american-university-caribbean-auc/204443-complaints-6.html#post1320534

To anybody who reads these 3 links: If this does not get through to you about the pros and cons of attending a caribbean school, then you are not fit for being a doctor.
 
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nicgb24 said:
For me, the time factor and the high USMLE pass rate makes AUC a good option for me. The pass rate is higher than it is for the DO school (both COMLEX and USMLE) I was accepted in to for admission.
Click to expand...

There is an excellent thread in the Pre-Osteo forum that discusses the facade of a carib school's "higher pass rate" and the reality of getting a residency position after graduating in 2016 from either type of school. I highly encourage you to study the issue more before making a costly (though timesaving) mistake.
 
MT Headed said:
There is an excellent thread in the Pre-Osteo forum that discusses the facade of a carib school's "higher pass rate" and the reality of getting a residency position after graduating in 2016 from either type of school. I highly encourage you to study the issue more before making a costly (though timesaving) mistake.
Click to expand...

Could you link the thread, I tried to look for it, but could not find it.
 
ashah0224 said:
I do not know of anybody who goes to study in India and Pakistan. On the contrary, many who study there and get their MBBS ace the USMLE and apply for the match.
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I do. A guy I know fairly well is Indian, was born and raised in the US, went to India for med school, and then came back to the US for residency and now works here as an attending.

According to ValueMD and another physician I know, for allopathic pre-med, the Philippines is sometimes more reputable than the Caribbean. But neither should be a first option for anybody who wants to become a licensed physician in USA.
Click to expand...
Never met anyone that I knew went to school in the Philippines.
 
Stumpyman said:
True. I recently learned of a friend from a top 15 undergrad going to Ross University for medical school. I asked him if he had considered the "DO route." He was utterly confused over what I meant by "DO."
Click to expand...

Oh well, more slots for me!!
 
skinMD said:
if you want a blog that's probably more representative of the caribbean experience:

http://2medschool.blogspot.com/

http://4medschool.blogspot.com/

http://6medschool.blogspot.com/

....i suggest you start with the last link first.

the tl;dr version is that this guy with a GPA in the 2.0s and an MCAT in the low 20s went off to Ross for med school, did 3 semesters (only passing first semester) and was kicked out. now he's wasted time and has a bunch of loans with absolutely nothing to show for it. As you can see the last post from 8 months ago suggests that he's going to try again at one of the lesser known carib schools (AUA), though we can all guess how that's going to end.....
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Oh my God. That quite literally has to be the ****tiest feeling in the world. As terrible as it sounds, I think I and other pre-meds can use this as motivation against what **could** happen, even to a supposed intelligent person, if the proper study habits and self restraint are not employed. What makes it even worse is the person is deluded enough to give it another chance; there's a difference between perseverance--2nd and 3rd chances--and just not being right for medicine. The reason medical school admissions are so stringent is because you are taking peoples' lives into your hands as a resident and attending--exactly reason to dissuade and detract these type of non committed "all i need is to pass" people. It is regretful that this individual did not have the support system to rationalize with him when he was genuinely, obviously struggling and on the verge of dismissal. Sometimes the biggest disservice one's friends and family can do is be apathetic and tentatively reassuring. It is one thing to be cold and exact by shutting one's dreams down saying "you don't have what it takes"; its altogether another to save a loved one's future (think: massive debt) by offering some constructive input and direction when the individual clearly lacks any semblance of it. On a side note, I wonder quantitively speaking how many doctors of any kind are out there having overcome odds such as this individual faces. There must literally be two handfuls of people who did as poorly as he did during undergrad, flunked out of the Caribbean, and still somehow became attendings.
 
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iggs99988 said:
Oh my God. That quite literally has to be the ****tiest feeling in the world. As terrible as it sounds, I think I and other pre-meds can use this as motivation against what **could** happen, even to a supposed intelligent person, if the proper study habits and self restraint are not employed. What makes it even worse is the person is deluded enough to give it another chance; there's a difference between perseverance--2nd and 3rd chances--and just not being right for medicine. The reason medical school admissions are so stringent is because you are taking peoples' lives into your hands as a resident and attending--exactly reason to dissuade and detract these type of non committed "all i need is to pass" people. It is regretful that this individual did not have the support system to rationalize with him when he was genuinely, obviously struggling and on the verge of dismissal. Sometimes the biggest disservice one's friends and family can do is be apathetic and tentatively reassuring. It is one thing to be cold and exact by shutting one's dreams down saying "you don't have what it takes"; its altogether another to save a loved one's future (think: massive debt) by offering some constructive input and direction when the individual clearly lacks any semblance of it. On a side note, I wonder quantitively speaking how many doctors of any kind are out there having overcome odds such as this individual faces. There must literally be two handfuls of people who did as poorly as he did during undergrad, flunked out of the Caribbean, and still somehow became an attending.
Click to expand...



I feel bad for the guy in the blog. But unfortunately thats life.

Everybody falls. What matters is how determined you are, how quick you get back up, how fast you improve, and whether you are actually making progress.


I think the two take away points are:
1) support system to rationalize and be brutally honest i.e. teach you to look at yourself very seriously and determine if you are fit
2) learn: how to learn, proper study habits, self discipline, and focus.
 
The problem with this argument is people seem to only think that if you don't get a good residency, it's a bad decision. If people want to do or don't mind FP or Psych anywhere for example(like North Dakota, Idaho, Alaska, wherever) is that a bad thing, especially if they enjoy it? I know not everyone wants to do a competitive specialty, but if you work hard at medical school in general, you can match somewhere. Although going to a Caribbean school, you might not have a high shot at a competitive specialty/program, but if you work really hard, you can match at a specialty, and become a DOCTOR, which is the real point anyway.
 
nicgb24 said:
Everyone is different and an off shore school might be perfect for some... like possibly for me.
I have received (really early... like September 2011 notice for an August 2012 start) admission to a DO program yet am still looking at AUC because it would allow me to finish my degree in 38 months.
I am a 30 year old health care attorney with a history degree from Johns Hopkins with a 27 MCAT and below average science grades at best. I sat for the MCAT with only a few med school pre reqs, all taken over 7 years prior.
I have spoken to physicians across the country (including those at my former employer Cleveland Clinic) and all feel that board scores, rotations and extras might make up for attending a foreign med school. Unless you are at Harvard or Chicago or the like or are top of the class with USMLE scores to match, you will find it difficult to match to super selective programs, even more so if you are a DO. This coming from the faculty at the DO school I where I was accepted. As a DO, you also must sit for the COMLEX.
For me, the time factor and the high USMLE pass rate makes AUC a good option for me. The pass rate is higher than it is for the DO school (both COMLEX and USMLE) I was accepted in to for admission.
Click to expand...

Um no. Rethink this. Getting your MD offshore in 38 months is pretty meaningless because most of the offshore schools present folks with hurdles that can cause them to be delayed one or more years. 38 months probably really means 5+ years. Anyone who tells you that you can outweigh the stigma of a Caribbean school with board scores, rotations, etc isn't being completely honest with you. Also bear in mind that a USMLE pass rates are a function of who takes the test, and how long you get to study for it. Some offshore programs don't let people take test until they prove they are "ready", and then may want you to study an inordinately long time. And that's after they fail out a big chunk of their class so that the pass rate doesn't include these folks. So yeah, lots of offshore schools can brag higher USMLE pass rates because they cherry pick who can take the test, and make them study longer. But don't fall for those games. The pass rates when considering everyone who started as a first year med student is dismal.
 
KnuxNole said:
The problem with this argument is people seem to only think that if you don't get a good residency, it's a bad decision. If people want to do or don't mind FP or Psych anywhere for example(like North Dakota, Idaho, Alaska, wherever) is that a bad thing, especially if they enjoy it? I know not everyone wants to do a competitive specialty, but if you work hard at medical school in general, you can match somewhere. Although going to a Caribbean school, you might not have a high shot at a competitive specialty/program, but if you work really hard, you can match at a specialty, and become a DOCTOR, which is the real point anyway.
Click to expand...

A large percentage of folks who go offshore for med school don't end up finishing, and not all those that do land a residency. The rate is historically about 40% I believe. And it's sure to get worse as US schools continue increasing their enrollment. Basically this is a good last ditch shot at becoming a doctor for folks for whom other avenues are closed even with effort, nothing more. It should never be high on your list, even if you think you'd be happy in a noncompetitive field in Idaho. Many don't even get that. It's your hail Mary pass at the end of the game, not something you rely on in your play book.
 
KnuxNole said:
The problem with this argument is people seem to only think that if you don't get a good residency, it's a bad decision. If people want to do or don't mind FP or Psych anywhere for example(like North Dakota, Idaho, Alaska, wherever) is that a bad thing, especially if they enjoy it? I know not everyone wants to do a competitive specialty, but if you work hard at medical school in general, you can match somewhere. Although going to a Caribbean school, you might not have a high shot at a competitive specialty/program, but if you work really hard, you can match at a specialty, and become a DOCTOR, which is the real point anyway.
Click to expand...

Most people also want to be a GOOD doctor. Residency training is better at some places than others, it isn't just about living at a specific place or working at a prestigious hospital.
 
mmmcdowe said:
Most people also want to be a GOOD doctor. Residency training is better at some places than others, it isn't just about living at a specific place or working at a prestigious hospital.
Click to expand...

Probably a really dumb question, but if the residency program is THAT bad, how would it still get accreditation?
 
KnuxNole said:
Probably a really dumb question, but if the residency program is THAT bad, how would it still get accreditation?
Click to expand...

All residencies have to meet certain minimum requirements to stay accredited. If they don't, they get put on probation to try and fix things. There are plenty of residency programs on probation every year. I wouldn't equate good training with competitiveness necessarily. But some places are less desirable residencies because they are malignant and not as good a place to train as other places in the field. Since malignancy is sometimes hard to see from outside a program, the accredit ors often don't know the real deal.
 
Law2Doc said:
All residencies have to meet certain minimum requirements to stay accredited. If they don't, they get put on probation to try and fix things. There are plenty of residency programs on probation every year. I wouldn't equate good training with competitiveness necessarily. But some places are less desirable residencies because they are malignant and not as good a place to train as other places in the field. Since malignancy is sometimes hard to see from outside a program, the accredit ors often don't know the real deal.
Click to expand...
Uninformed pre-med question: Is there a place where you can see what programs are on probation?
 
As for the OP... it just seems like it would be a lot smarter to go into a DO program than do this Carribean busines. If you have to resort to going to a Carribean medical school, then I'd argue that you need to rethink the whole career path of being a physician because there's a reason why medical schools accept people based on GPA and MCAT scores - it gives them an idea of whether or not you will be able to handle medical school and being a doctor!
Bottom line is that it seems like there are lots of better, more realistic opportunities in the medical field - DO(and here you are still actually be a physician), PT, RN, nurse practitioner, etc.
 
KnuxNole said:
Probably a really dumb question, but if the residency program is THAT bad, how would it still get accreditation?
Click to expand...

Meeting the minimum requirements just barelyabout versus excelling above them. Throw in a negative environment that makes meeting those reqs even more arduous for residents and there you have it. I think I should also add that I mean more of as good a doctor as possible rather than meaning to imply some programs can't create good doctors.
 
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sylvanthus said:
"Nah not really, if someone gets a 2.1 cause they were too lazy then they're absolutely not intelligent at all. You don't go through 4 years of getting low marks and not changing your habits and being "intelligent." "

Dude, by your logic, Im a *****. I had a 2.6 for several years in community college due to being a slacker and immature. I scored a 36 on the MCAT, a 250 USMLE, and a 732 COMLEX. Your logic is flawed, or your definition of intelligence is warped.
Click to expand...

He's right...if you chose to slack off willingly you're an idiot because you had talent and chose not to use it.
 
I don't think the caribbean is as bad as everyone says! I was just on the website for my hometown's hospital (which is a pretty good hospital) and there are a ton of residents there who received their degrees from Ross and SGU.

I mean personally I wouldn't go to the Caribbean (I'd probably choose DO had I not gotten accepted to a US MD this year) but I have a friend who's attending Ross this semester so I'll see how it goes for her.
 
Why? Cheap and people really don't care about your school.
Why not? Matching will be more difficult, I imagine.
 
AxeJ said:
Why? Cheap and people really don't care about your school.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by cheap. The Big 4 have tuition rates ranging from 25k to 40k per academic year - not as expensive as some American schools, but certainly not a drop in the bucket.


AxeJ said:
I was talking about patients.
Click to expand...

The opinions of your patients won't matter if you can't land a residency in the first place.
 
Whatyousay said:
Not sure what you mean by cheap. The Big 4 have tuition rates ranging from 25k to 40k per academic year - not as expensive as some American schools, but certainly not a drop in the bucket.




The opinions of your patients won't matter if you can't land a residency in the first place.
Click to expand...

Valid points.
 
LondonBridge said:
I don't think the caribbean is as bad as everyone says! I was just on the website for my hometown's hospital (which is a pretty good hospital) and there are a ton of residents there who received their degrees from Ross and SGU.

I mean personally I wouldn't go to the Caribbean (I'd probably choose DO had I not gotten accepted to a US MD this year) but I have a friend who's attending Ross this semester so I'll see how it goes for her.
Click to expand...
People who graduated from the carribean a couple years ago were in 10x better shape than those who will MAYBE graduate in 5 years... The situation (no jersey shore) gets worse every year for IMGs.
 
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