Carribean Med School...No MCAT...High School Transcript

[sabdul]

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Hi...I've been told by one of my friends that there is a Carribean med school whose name starts with "St." or "Saint", which:

1. Doesn't require the MCAT
2. Only looks at your high school grades (and any university courses you've taken)
3. Has residency/licensing opportunities for its graduates in Chicago in the U.S.

Is this true? If so, what is the name of this school?

 

[propel1]

It is probably St. George's. These off-shore schools should be a absolute last resort for medical school. While many successful return, a good amount do not--not to mention these schools are not accredited by LCME.

 

[BlueElmo]

Hi...I've been told by one of my friends that there is a Carribean med school whose name starts with "St." or "Saint", which:

1. Doesn't require the MCAT
2. Only looks at your high school grades (and any university courses you've taken)
3. Has residency/licensing opportunities for its graduates in Chicago in the U.S.

Is this true? If so, what is the name of this school?

Dude, don't do it. Don't even bother figuring out the name.

 

[MedMan25]

Hi...I've been told by one of my friends that there is a Carribean med school whose name starts with "St." or "Saint", which:

1. Doesn't require the MCAT
2. Only looks at your high school grades (and any university courses you've taken)
3. Has residency/licensing opportunities for its graduates in Chicago in the U.S.

Is this true? If so, what is the name of this school?

There are a number of off-shore schools that don't require the MCAT. Most of them will take anyone that can get a student loan. Spend a few minutes in the international forum to find out why these schools are generally not a good idea.

 

[87138]

Hi...I've been told by one of my friends that there is a Carribean med school whose name starts with "St." or "Saint", which:

1. Doesn't require the MCAT
2. Only looks at your high school grades (and any university courses you've taken)
3. Has residency/licensing opportunities for its graduates in Chicago in the U.S.

Is this true? If so, what is the name of this school?

It'd be a better use of your time to spend 4 years living on the run-down set of St. Elsewhere.

 

[sarahg]

It is probably St. George's. These off-shore schools should be a absolute last resort for medical school. While many successful return, a good amount do not--not to mention these schools are not accredited by LCME.

I think SGU is a little more competitive than that, unless the OP's friend is talking about the program where you do your premedical studies there and then "graduate" into the medical program. I think that program is mainly for people from developing countries, as in many of those med school is entered immediately after high school and completed in 6 years.

The OP is probably talking about a school intended mainly for locals but which also takes Americans, or about one of the pretty awful schools that exist only to make money from people who can't get into even the top Carribbean schools. SGU is a last resort but unless they're lying about their match stats and testing stats, a pretty reliable last resort. But the lower tier Carribbean schools are such a bad bet that they shouldn't even be used as a last resort, the probability of coming out with $300k in loans and no residency is too high.

 

[dragonfly99]

I would explore other options first before thinking of going to school down there. If you really want to start med school early, look into the 6 or 7 year programs in the US (UM Kansas City 6 year program, Northwestern has a guaranteed entry program, St. Louis U has a guaranteed entry program, I think U of Miami has a 6 year program). The Caribbean schools are not accredited in the US so getting a residency and a license can be a problem, despite what those schools say. You also would be very unlikely to get residency at the nicest hospitals, and would be unlikely to be able to do some specialties, such as dermatology, orthopedics or urology, etc. (things that are hard to get into even for US trained students). Don't take a shortcut and then find out later that you actually decreased your opportunities.

 

[Perrotfish]

There are a grand total of 4 Caribbean school which have negotiated with the US to secure practice rights for their graduates in at least 48 out of 50 states (SABA and St Georges are 2 of them, I don't remember the other two). Carib applicants refer to them as the big 4. Those 4 all require a college transcript, and I believe most if not all of them require an MCAT. There are many, many other options for off shore medical school, but they don't guarentee you the right to practice in the US. This is not the same as just saying 'you need to do really well to match'. I mean you can do well, kill the boards, and then find out that you CAN'T legally match, or that you can only match/practice in some uber underserved rectangular cornfield of a state, because the other 49 states don't consider your medical school to be on the level.

Now I'm not sure what you're asking about here, specifically. Are you talking about a big 4 school that hosts a 6 year BS/MD program? Probably not a good idea, but could be legit. They have those in the US too, BTW. If you're talking about a school that's willing to skip over your college record, chances are you're looking at getting taken for a lot of cash and not real opportunity to be a doc.

 

[Pghboy18]

Hi...I've been told by one of my friends that there is a Carribean med school whose name starts with "St." or "Saint", which:

1. Doesn't require the MCAT
2. Only looks at your high school grades (and any university courses you've taken)
3. Has residency/licensing opportunities for its graduates in Chicago in the U.S.

Is this true? If so, what is the name of this school?

I'm guessing it's SJSM. They've posted fliers around my school basically advertising #1 and #3. I also know that they have a premed-med program that takes high school students.

 

[pietachok]

There are a few of these schools, but it's not as peachy as you make it sound:

1) True they don't require the MCAT, but ...

2) If you haven't gone to college, you technically can't be licensed in many states. Some of the schools like Windsor claim they will give you an undergrad degree along with your M.D., but this doesn't fulfill the 90-120 UG hours of coursework required by many U.S. states to practice as a physician. While many people "slip through" b/c their undergrad credentials aren't checked, if something happens that DOES cause yours to get checked once you are practicing, you're no longer going to be able to practice (unsure if there would be penalties for practicing without the undergrad degree previously or if you would just be required to go back and do undergrad coursework AFTER med school)

3) You can't practice in upwards of a dozen states in the U.S. that use the CA list of approved medical schools. It is also likely you will be unable to practice in NY, FL, and TX, depending on the particular school. About 60% of the students who graduate from these schools manage to get A residency within 5 years of graduating from medical school...so 40% of them still haven't been able to get ANY residency half a decade or more after graduating from med school...and they didn't get kind US school loans for their foreign education, so they're acquiring massive interest w/out a way to pay it back.

 

[sabdul]

Hmm..Okay, so then can anyone explain what the deal is with this: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

How did all these people get into residencies in the States...and won't they be able to practice in the U.S. after they're done?

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Sgu and auc will not accept just any one. Saba is the only one that does not always require the mcat. Check out the valuemd forums. If you are in high school stop selling yourself short.

You might be thinking of st eustias( spelling?) not one of the "big 4". The big 4 is sgu auc Ross and saba.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Hmm..Okay, so then can anyone explain what the deal is with this: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

How did all these people get into residencies in the States...and won't they be able to practice in the U.S. after they're done?

They worked hard, and did not get the residency they probably would have gotten with identical effort/scores had they attended a medical school in the U.S.

SGU is one of the reasonably credible Carribbean schools, and they are approved in all 50 states. They will not accept you unless you meet all the requirements, such as taking the MCAT and getting a bachelor's degree.

 

[sabdul]

So wait...SGU requires the MCAT then?

 

[GeraldMonroe]

So wait...SGU requires the MCAT then?

yes. So does Ross. (two of the more credible Caribbean schools, honestly I only ever even considered SGU. I did apply and get in, actually)

 

[sabdul]

Well...After all that I've read, I would like to thank all the people who responded. I'm actually going into my second year of university this September and would like to go to dental school. I was just inquiring about this Caribbean med school thing b/c the individual who will be attending this med school next year who my friend was speaking of isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer so to speak. That left me wondering, I work my ass off, and so far am happy with my accomplishments...But if this person has done nothing at all and is well on their way to becoming an MD and working in the States, wouldn't that be a better route? Thanks for the responses once again...You've prevented me from making what it seems to be a very big mistake.

 

[Pghboy18]

There are a few of these schools, but it's not as peachy as you make it sound:

1) True they don't require the MCAT, but ...

2) If you haven't gone to college, you technically can't be licensed in many states. Some of the schools like Windsor claim they will give you an undergrad degree along with your M.D., but this doesn't fulfill the 90-120 UG hours of coursework required by many U.S. states to practice as a physician. While many people "slip through" b/c their undergrad credentials aren't checked, if something happens that DOES cause yours to get checked once you are practicing, you're no longer going to be able to practice (unsure if there would be penalties for practicing without the undergrad degree previously or if you would just be required to go back and do undergrad coursework AFTER med school)

3) You can't practice in upwards of a dozen states in the U.S. that use the CA list of approved medical schools. It is also likely you will be unable to practice in NY, FL, and TX, depending on the particular school. About 60% of the students who graduate from these schools manage to get A residency within 5 years of graduating from medical school...so 40% of them still haven't been able to get ANY residency half a decade or more after graduating from med school...and they didn't get kind US school loans for their foreign education, so they're acquiring massive interest w/out a way to pay it back.

what happens to people who graduate caribbean but don't get a residency? Industry? Research? I had the impression that those fields were relatively competitive...

 

[Handy388]

what happens to people who graduate caribbean but don't get a residency? Industry? Research? I had the impression that those fields were relatively competitive...

they teach highschool.

 

[sabdul]

Work in eastern countries?.

 

[sunset823]

what happens to people who graduate caribbean but don't get a residency? Industry? Research? I had the impression that those fields were relatively competitive...

my guess - "Do you want fries with that?"...

And yes, from what I've seen in the research I'm doing (social science) is that research and industry careers are very competitive - it seems that those who make a name for themselves in academic medicine on average have attended 'higher-tier' US med schools, as well as those in industry (usually recruited out of Harvard, Hopkins, UPenn, etc.), and policy (where my interests lie)

 

[sabdul]

my guess - "Do you want fries with that?"...

And yes, from what I've seen in the research I'm doing (social science) is that research and industry careers are very competitive - it seems that those who make a name for themselves in academic medicine on average have attended 'higher-tier' US med schools, as well as those in industry (usually recruited out of Harvard, Hopkins, UPenn, etc.), and policy (where my interests lie)

I hope you come up with good policies...unless Obama gets there first.

 

[genswim24]

what happens to people who graduate caribbean but don't get a residency? Industry? Research? I had the impression that those fields were relatively competitive...

I worked with a couple of these people at a previous research position. They were building up their resumes with research positions in academic medicine while applying for residency again. One person I worked with got a neurology residency his 3rd time through and another girl got an IM one her second time around.

 

[sabdul]

I worked with a couple of these people at a previous research position. They were building up their resumes with research positions in academic medicine while applying for residency again. One person I worked with got a neurology residency his 3rd time through and another girl got an IM one her second time around.

Yes. But, what if you don't even get a research position...

 

[Law2Doc]

Hmm..Okay, so then can anyone explain what the deal is with this: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1
...

Simple -- you are looking at the small amount of water in the otherwise empty glass -- it looks as good as any water until you realize there is so much less of it. Attrition offshore is huge. Any caribbean school that puts together a good match list doesn't show you the 4-5 times as many people that were classmates of these folks somewhere along the road. People get kicked out, people get held back. Lots of funny games that don't happen at the US schools. But sure, a FRACTION of matriculants end up doing just fine, and probably save some time they should have spent fixing things. It's still a fool's gambit though.

Plain and simple, if you want to practice in the US the best path is to attend a med school in the US, even if it means retaking the MCAT, spending extra years fixing stats. The folks who are in a rush are the ones who don't fare well. The offshore schools are fine options as last resorts for folks who still need a second chance to be a doctor after other US attempts have failed. But they are a lousy first resort, and you don't want to buy the hype of engineered match lists and board scores some of these places boast, by holding people back until they prove themselves on internal exams, throwing out the bottom chunk of the class, etc.

 

[genswim24]

Yes. But, what if you don't even get a research position...

It's not that hard to get into a research position if you are in city with academic hospitals. I just finished a graduate program with about 30 kids who were applying to research positions and none of them had too much difficulty finding a job. Obviously today's economy is different than a year ago, but research is not getting hit as hard as other fields. The catch was, these positions don't necessarily pay all that well, especially if you have 250K+ in debt from med school.

 

[GeraldMonroe]

I think it's not as bad as Law2Doc's making it sound. If you do the work and earn reasonable grades (average or a little below average on the boards) you'll almost certainly match internal medicine/psych/pediatrics. Emergency medicine, Ob/Gyn, and anesthesiology are harder but appear to be doable.

If this meets your dream, go for it. Maybe you'll have regrets later, but you will be a doctor.

 

[NiCad089]

While the Caribbean offers a great second chance to people who messed up their undergrad, it should NEVER be your first choice, ever. A close friend of mine when to the Caribbean, i don't remember which school along with his brother and sister. His school has some deal with the instate med school so that he can do his clinical studies there. He went after only one semester of college. He's back now studying for step 1, but it's going to an uphill battle from here on out. He wants to do rad onc, but I don't think that's realistic. He'll probably have to settle for something else.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

I think it's not as bad as Law2Doc's making it sound. If you do the work and earn reasonable grades (average or a little below average on the boards) you'll almost certainly match internal medicine/psych/pediatrics. Emergency medicine, Ob/Gyn, and anesthesiology are harder but appear to be doable.

If this meets your dream, go for it. Maybe you'll have regrets later, but you will be a doctor.

Why didn't you end up going to SGU? It must have been very tempting?

 

[GeraldMonroe]

Why didn't you end up going to SGU? It must have been very tempting?

Because I would have started this January (Jan 2009). My residency start date would end up being the exact same as if I had started school this August (August 2009), so I would not be a doctor any sooner.

So I choose to wait to see if I got any love from my state allopathic schools. And I did.

 

[RustedFox]

Hello. I am a fourth-year medical student at SGU. I am a US-citizen who despite a 34 MCAT and great GPA, was not accepted to any United States MD schools. I am not alone. Many of my classmates had more impressive MCAT scores and GPAs.

After finishing my pre-clinical years (your first two years of medical school), I felt that I was very well-prepared to take the STEP-1 exam. I took it and performed extraordinarily well, just as I had done in my pre-clinical classes. I performed just as well on my STEP-2 exams (yes, there are two), and sucessfully matched into Emergency Medicine (which has become much, much more competitive for everyone recently, regardless of medical school) at a residency program very high on my list. Take a good look at that SGU match-list in one of the above posts. Those are my classmates. I know them all, and the most of them are as outstanding as their match shows. Surgery/radiology/anesthesia/emergency/urology... they worked for it, and they succeeded.

Any truly educated person knows that it's not WHERE you went to school that counts, but what you learned while you were at that school. I made my dreams come true through innate ability and hard work. SGU is not a "collection of people who are just dumb enough to sign up for loans"; and the match list shows it. Any eligible SGU grad will be able to practice in any state that he/she desires, so long as they complete that particular state's licensing requirements (some states, especially Texas and California, have very particular requirements... and not even US grads can practice there if they don't fulfill those reqs. For example: I will never be licensed in Texas if I do not "go back" and do a clinical rotation in Neurology, which is just fine by me. Each state has their own rules.)

Becoming a physician requires one very important thing from you: an honest self-assessment of your own capabilities, both academic and professional. If you're looking to "not have to take the MCAT", then you're in for a shock, because you'll eventually have to take much more difficult, elaborate, comprehensive, and time-consuming licensing exams. If you don't feel that you can honestly hack it, then don't look for shortcut ways around it. Be honest with yourself before you meet a much more severe disappointment, and have wasted a lot of time and money.

For honest information about SGU, call their offices and ask to speak to an admissions counselor, or check out their website. Feel free to PM me to clear up any misconceptions that you may have about SGU.

 

[bodonid]

y don't you just go to Stewart University? Its in America plus the Chancellor is very nice.

 

[NiCad089]

y don't you just go to Stewart University? Its in America plus the Chancellor is very nice.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
For honest information about SGU, call their offices and ask to speak to an admissions counselor, or check out their website. ...

Because everyone knows that the best place to get honest info is to ask the party with the biggest stake in the process.🙄

I wasn't talking about SGU per se, but offshore schools as a group. Sure some do better than others. But as a group they are only matching about 40-50% of the people who make it to the match (as compared to 93% of US seniors), which in turn is a much smaller subset than who starts out together as a first year. If you look at the enrollment numbers of some of the offshore schools you will find that the number of enrollees is far far higher than 4 times the number of graduating seniors. This means either a lot get chopped off in the first year, or a lot get stuck in the next two. So the folks who make it through and match deserve kudos -- this is not the only possible result they could have had.

The simple truth is if your goal is to practice in the US, the best path is to do your schooling in the US. There are many many threads now on SDN showing that the increase in US enrollment over the last few years (with no corresponding increase in residency slots) is, in fact, taking a bite out of the offshore placement numbers, and this trend is expected to continue in the near term. In a relatively short time span, the projection on those threads is that US schools will completely fill US needs, and it is likely this is the AAMC's plan (given statements they made back in 2005 about the need for US schools to fill US needs, and the desirability for all US doctors to attend schools with LCME oversight)..

 

[pietachok]

Hmm..Okay, so then can anyone explain what the deal is with this: https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2009/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY1&Count=-1

How did all these people get into residencies in the States...and won't they be able to practice in the U.S. after they're done?

What they're not showing you on that list is what % of applicants for residencies that represents. That is not 100% of their graduating class, and it is not all one graduating class...there are people listed who have applied multiple times to match. There are many people not listed who haven't matched, and the stats below should show you that means they are failing to post a huge chunk on that list.

Here are the statistics for matching. The following stats represent the percent of applicants to this year's match who were unsuccessful:
US-educated MD's: 6.9 % of those applying (last yr 5.8)
Previous graduates of MD programs: 55.4% of those applying(56%)
D.O. graduates: 30.1% of those applying (28.4%)
Canadian-educated MD's: 28.6% of those applying (28.8%)
5th pathway applicants: 61.3% of those applying (51%)
US Citizen FMGs: 52.2% of those applying (48.1%)
Non US Citizen FMGs: 58.4% of those applying (57.6%)
***********************************************
Total applicants Unmatched: 28.6% of those applying (last yr was 27.1%)

Notice that the worst thing to be is a FMG, and notice that is got worse this year relative to last year. Roughly half of all FMG's do not match at all. While you can assume that SGU does better than many of the Carib schools outside of the big 4, don't forget the above stats include grads from the top European schools as "FMG" applicants, too, and they are almost certainly matching at a better rate than the Carib schools. There are a fair # of US Citizens, for instance, who have ties to Italy (like parents from Italy) who go to Bologna for med school b/c it is so cheap while being on par w/ our top med schools. They are not going to fail to match at the same rate as students educated in the Carib.

Not being able to practice in the US is not an issue w/ SGU. There are Carib schools, particularly the non-competitive ones that don't require an MCAT, that do not afford you that guarantee--mostly it is just an issue of being highly restricted in which states you can practice in legally or even earn a residency b/c they don't recognize your education. I believe SGU is recognized by all 50 states.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

Because I would have started this January (Jan 2009). My residency start date would end up being the exact same as if I had started school this August (August 2009), so I would not be a doctor any sooner.

So I choose to wait to see if I got any love from my state allopathic schools. And I did.

Then thats was a good thing.