Case Study vs Didactic Learning - an opinion

[StartingoverVet]

This has been discussed in some threads in the past (especially discussing + and - of certain schools), but I thought it might deserve its own thread, especially as I have some new thoughts on the subject.

For background, I was a strong proponent of the didactic style, but had the opinion that case method might be good for "certain types of learners". I now feel like that opinion has changed based on my experience in vet school (I am at UPenn for those of you unaware), and this is why:

I think didactic learning is dependent on 1) Having effective teachers and 2) Having material that needs to be explained. I find that, for the most part, neither of things are true in vet school. Most of the teachers are mediocre at best at lecturing, although they are much better in clinical settings teaching a small group of people. And most of the material ends up being rote memorization, with little thinking involved (at least in first 2 years of school).

For those reasons, I think that the didactic style forces rote memorization of facts that are easily forgotten.

On the other hand, when material like this is learned in context, it is much more likely to be retained. The few case studies we use in class, have been retained much better by me, and the few cases I have seen in clinics related to what I am trying to memorize, are also easier recalled.

Lastly, I have mostly stopped attending classes because I find poor uses of my time. I would rather sit at home learning individual cases that make an impact on me, than listening to lectures that don't.

So there you have it.... my conversion to the case study method. If you have a choice between schools and are otherwise undecided, I would definitely recommend you go to the school that uses case study, and if not that at least a systems approach to the material.

I am sure there will be some dissenting opinions (which I would have been one in the past), which I welcome below (along with any who agree😀)

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[PetPony]

I would like a mix of both of them, but not actual lectures we need to attend like you said you don't. I really like the idea of case studies etc. but I also like listening to someone talk about the different topics. I have trouble concentrating in lectures though and admit that I'd probably skip a lot of I could. What would help me the most is if I go to class for case studies and then do the rest at home on my own.

I learn very well with podcasts and I think it'd be awesome if the professors would make those on their own instead of lecturing in front of everyone and then uploading them somewhere so everyone has access to them. I learn much more watching and listening to podcasts than sitting in class and I'm also a lot more motivated to work that way. It would probably save time for everyone that way.

That'd be my perfect mix of them. But I wouldn't like case study only learning. Just as I don't like didactic only.

 

[DVMDream]

I have always hated lectures, which is probably why I don't show up to many lectures. I have always been better at teaching myself the information and looking for resources to aid in my studying than sitting in a 50 minute lecture and hearing one source of information... In those 50 minutes at home I could have reviewed multiple sources and have a much better understanding on the information. I did this in undergrad as well... rarely went to lecture and taught myself the information. Although I do like that our professors will put in some case examples on occasion. It really does help in studying if I can hear a real example of how what I am learning applies clinically. However, I don't think I could learn off case studies only. I tend to use lectures as a supplement, they are a source for learning information and I can choose to either use that source (if there is a good lecturer) or to not use that source.

 

[Lissarae06]

By case study do you mean PBL? I am taking a PBL elective and I hate it. I really don't feel like I have learned anything from it. I am good at rote memorization and I feel like I learn better in classes where they teach didactic and then have you apply what you have learned through case based questions. A lot of our tests have a combo of facts you were supposed to memorize and questions where you are given info about a patient and then asked questions about it. I think it works well for me.

 

[StartingoverVet]

By case study do you mean PBL? I am taking a PBL elective and I hate it. I really don't feel like I have learned anything from it. I am good at rote memorization and I feel like I learn better in classes where they teach didactic and then have you apply what you have learned through case based questions. A lot of our tests have a combo of facts you were supposed to memorize and questions where you are given info about a patient and then asked questions about it. I think it works well for me.

Yes... PBL .

As bolded above, your being good at rote memorization I agree makes didactic a good choice for you....

For some, like me, rote memorization is a torture.

 

[that redhead]

I think I lean more toward the traditional lecture methods, but I do acknowledge that case studies can be helpful in retaining the material because it's put into context, such as in our pharm/tox class where she usually includes a mini-case study relevent to the material. We had one purely PBL style class last year and while it was interesting and helped put things into context, I didn't feel like I actually learned all that much from it; more like it cemented what knowledge I had gained from other, traditional lectures.

Then again, I'm a visual learner and it helps to go to class and read the powerpoints, highlight the notes and be hearing the info all together. There are plenty of classes where the lecture is basically the same as the notes and there is no need to go to class for extra information, but the combination of powerpoint/lecture/highlighting/discussion works well for me.

 

[Coquette22]

1) Having effective teachers and 2) Having material that needs to be explained. I find that, for the most part, neither of things are true in vet school.

I agree with these two points, but I think your statement about not being true in vet school is going to depend heavily on the school and the professors. I can honestly say we have some fantastic lecturers at AVC, and I'd say many are above mediocre compared with my experience of post secondary education in general. I think I'd find strict PBL to be too scattered for my learning style. Most of our curriculum is didactic with case-based tutorials for most classes. I'm a lot like redhead and this works for me. Give me the information, and then give me a case to cement that information.

 

[orca2011]

I agree with these two points, but I think your statement about not being true in vet school is going to depend heavily on the school and the professors. I can honestly say we have some fantastic lecturers at AVC, and I'd say many are above mediocre compared with my experience of post secondary education in general. I think I'd find strict PBL to be too scattered for my learning style. Most of our curriculum is didactic with case-based tutorials for most classes. I'm a lot like redhead and this works for me. Give me the information, and then give me a case to cement that information.

I feel like this is kind of how I am. I like the lectures for providing me the background info (although I do often find that I have to teach myself a bit to present it in a clearer way) and then provide me with a case where that info has been applied. If I can think of real life examples, it will stick better for me.

 

[anotherbusybee]

There are entire schools and graduate programs (Education is a real field of study) dedicated to parsing out the benefits or negative effects of 1) "sage-on-stage" (lectures, rote memorization, didactic teaching) versus 2) discussion-based and/or problem-based learning.

The general consensus of modern studies is that the latter is better for creativity and encourages applying general principles to novel situations. Sounds a lot like medicine, doesn't it? 🙂

 

[bunnity]

SOV, I think you are going to love clin path at Penn. I think it's an ideal method of running a class. It's designed by people that research educational methods - and even better, the course organizer actually cares if we learn.

The way it works is that there are lectures (more or less required) that include clicker questions to make sure things are making sense. Lectures are backed up by a series of online cases (done in class/teams and at home/individually) that reinforce the material learned that week and previous weeks in class. There are 15 or so quiz cases that are done in class - first individually and then as a team. Normally I hate team stuff but this worked really well. The final exam was 6 cases in a row, all done individually. I am hoping more classes move toward this method because it really works. I remember way more from clin path than any other class we've had.

 

[futurehealervet]

Im considering applying to cornell and have heard that the BIG thing in cornell is problem based learning. I attended an info. session at my school and they said that they have lectures AND tutor groups for PBL. Is anyone currently in Cornell or went to Cornell who can say a bit about their teaching style and how they like it?

 

[sumstorm]

I think I would have performed better with PBL, I am tragic at rote memorization, but a single exposure in a clinical setting, with some info searches, and I am set. With my interest in exotics, the ability to search out info is far more important than my ability to recite the exact days of gestation where particular phases of bvd has an impact.

I have consistently learned more on externships and wet labs than I have in the classroom. I was also frustrated with mandatory attendance and the focus on differentiating students based on the memorization of minutiae.

 

[PendantWorld]

Im considering applying to cornell and have heard that the BIG thing in cornell is problem based learning. I attended an info. session at my school and they said that they have lectures AND tutor groups for PBL. Is anyone currently in Cornell or went to Cornell who can say a bit about their teaching style and how they like it?

I'm currently in my second year at Cornell and I have really gotten a lot out of PBL so far. The structure of courses is such that you spend about six hours a week in tutor group working through a case while having additional material that relates to the system being studied covered in lectures, labs and case studies. You are also expected to perform independent study in response to any learning issues that were uncovered during your tutor group sessions. There are some blocks that are not PBL and are only didactic, so you get a mix of teaching styles as you go. Some blocks have a larger proportion of PBL to didactic than others, but no blocks are exclusively PBL.

Not everyone likes this set up - some people consider the tutor group a waste of time, and it can be frustrating when your group does not participate or adequately research their learning issues and come ready for discussion. That said, I really love putting information in the context of a case. It also does an excellent job of revealing any gaps in your knowledge that you may not have even realize existed. There are definitely pros and cons to the set up, but comparing the blocks of courses that we have that are PBL with those that are didactic only, I can say with certainty that I got a lot more out of the PBL ones.

If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me 🙂

 

[StartingoverVet]

SOV, I think you are going to love clin path at Penn. I think it's an ideal method of running a class. It's designed by people that research educational methods - and even better, the course organizer actually cares if we learn.

The way it works is that there are lectures (more or less required) that include clicker questions to make sure things are making sense. Lectures are backed up by a series of online cases (done in class/teams and at home/individually) that reinforce the material learned that week and previous weeks in class. There are 15 or so quiz cases that are done in class - first individually and then as a team. Normally I hate team stuff but this worked really well. The final exam was 6 cases in a row, all done individually. I am hoping more classes move toward this method because it really works. I remember way more from clin path than any other class we've had.

Thanks for the encouraging info. I am tired of just hearing how Q4 of 2nd year is soooo hard from my ex-classmates, nice to hear SOMETHING positive about next semester!

Hope you had a good holiday!!!!🙂

 

[heylodeb]

CBL/PBL (whatever you want to call it) is part of our new curriculum at Davis and I think it is really good. You spend a lot of time feeling frustrated, lost, annoyed, etc - but at the end of the day when you've finally figured out what you are supposed to know and see it all come together (and it always does...seriously - you always end up figuring it out) you remember the material fantastically and it is on instant recall for when you need it later.

Some days, I really just want to go sit in lecture and have some yell at me and then sit on my couch and rewrite the lectures 'cuz it's easier for my brain but it really isn't the most effective way to learn.

 

[heylodeb]

I'm currently in my second year at Cornell and I have really gotten a lot out of PBL so far. The structure of courses is such that you spend about six hours a week in tutor group working through a case while having additional material that relates to the system being studied covered in lectures, labs and case studies. You are also expected to perform independent study in response to any learning issues that were uncovered during your tutor group sessions. There are some blocks that are not PBL and are only didactic, so you get a mix of teaching styles as you go. Some blocks have a larger proportion of PBL to didactic than others, but no blocks are exclusively PBL.

This sounds really similar to how Davis is organized. Some blocks are extremely group intensive (this one) and others have no group work at all.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I personally like a mix. SOV, I totally agree that vet school profs tend to be crappy crappy teachers beyond core first year courses like anatomy (where teaching is essentially what they're hired to do exclusively), and I also agree that going to lecture is a total waste of my time. I only go when I know that the person teaching it is going to be worth listening to. BUT what I do like about didactic teaching is that it does condense the information so that you don't have to search the universe to find it. Having a concrete set of information that I'm told is important for me to learn was great in the first 2 years when I really just didn't know enough to know what was important/not important.

I also agree that I remember a ton more from PBL type cases. I also remember a ton from making mistakes/being embarrassed about not knowing something that I feel I should. With the repetitive/redundant nature of vet school, I think the best mix would be if we could condense the didactic teaching to the first year of vet school, and make whatever is now the didactic portion of third year all PBL.

 

[nyanko]

I think I would have performed better with PBL, I am tragic at rote memorization, but a single exposure in a clinical setting, with some info searches, and I am set.

I have consistently learned more on externships and wet labs than I have in the classroom. I was also frustrated with mandatory attendance and the focus on differentiating students based on the memorization of minutiae.

+500 to this. (I think this is one of the few things that sumstorm and I have always agreed on)

 

[scb44f]

After seeing my husband go through PBL in med school, and knowing where I sit in regular classes, I'd much rather do the PBL thing. His school has a few lectures each week to introduce the random diseases they would never get to, but they learn the foundation on their own.

I think another big advantage to PBL is consistent exposure to radiographs, tests available, and lab values.

This is separate from the PBL, but his med school also starts them on how to speak with patients (actors) and do physical exams from day one, and they continue that up until they enter clinics. I'm sure some vet schools do this, but Mizzou does hardly any (at least up until halfway through second year... I'm not sure if they do any in the spring or not).

Anyway, I would love to attend a PBL vet school, especially if physical exams and taking histories was involved from the get go.

 

[Trilt]

+500 to this. (I think this is one of the few things that sumstorm and I have always agreed on)

I'm the same way... give me a clinical situation for my material and I learn it 10x faster and 10x better. I've gained so much from wetlabs and our PBL course. Just generally, I'm much better at problem solving and connecting things than just putting it away in my head - I guess that's why I loved our neuro/lesion locating section of anatomy... learn the basic info you needed, then apply it.

With that said, I think didactic learning has it's benefits... but by far my biggest beef with the way I've been taught so far is that I'm given absolutely no context for the importance of different bits of material - if I must be in a rote didactic situation, I work way better "layering" material, getting the big picture, thinking it through, getting more details on each subject as I delve into it, etc, and the way it's been presented so far is just "bang, here's tons of information, learn it all. If you see it again in another class assume that's the more important bit to know." Totally doesn't work well for me.

 

[that redhead]

if I must be in a rote didactic situation, I work way better "layering" material, getting the big picture, thinking it through, getting more details on each subject as I delve into it,

See, I'm the opposite! I would prefer to learn the core bits first and THEN give me a big picture. I get super frustrated when it's like here are all these problems- GO. And then I follow one sign and realize that if I had only known that purple feces means butterfly toxicity, I would have saved SO MUCH TIME in putting the whole picture together.

It's kind of like a puzzle- give me all of the pieces at once at let me start from the ground up instead of giving me some of the pieces and then the rest of them when I specifically ask for them

 

[Ben and Me]

Thanks for the encouraging info. I am tired of just hearing how Q4 of 2nd year is soooo hard from my ex-classmates, nice to hear SOMETHING positive about next semester!

I hated 1st year the most, by far. It has gotten better and better for me since then. I love 4th year.

Just to give you an alternate opinion 🙂 I don't trust anyone else's interpretation of the "hardness" of various vet school years -- it varies so much!

 

[485501]

See, I'm the opposite! I would prefer to learn the core bits first and THEN give me a big picture. I get super frustrated when it's like here are all these problems- GO. And then I follow one sign and realize that if I had only known that purple feces means butterfly toxicity, I would have saved SO MUCH TIME in putting the whole picture together.

It's kind of like a puzzle- give me all of the pieces at once at let me start from the ground up instead of giving me some of the pieces and then the rest of them when I specifically ask for them

I've had similar experiences at college - we had some PBL sections of classes, and the only times it was anything other than miserable for me is when we had had a lecture giving us background earlier. I had a few experiences of "ok, here is some information, see if you can reason out/research what is going on here" and have every group in the entire class get it wrong because we were all missing some key factor that wasn't emphasized as particularly important in our textbook/the papers we were given.

Regarding lectures, I actually really like them, but I don't use them as my primary info source. I try to do all the reading/teach myself some of the material before lecture, and then I use the lecture as a way of checking if I've learned what's important/understood all the concepts. Plus, after lecture, I can ask questions that I know I can't find the answers to in my books/the obvious places online, rather than asking questions that I could figure out by myself thus wasting the professor's time.

 

[sumstorm]

Regarding lectures, I actually really like them, but I don't use them as my primary info source. I try to do all the reading/teach myself some of the material before lecture, and then I use the lecture as a way of checking if I've learned what's important/understood all the concepts. Plus, after lecture, I can ask questions that I know I can't find the answers to in my books/the obvious places online, rather than asking questions that I could figure out by myself thus wasting the professor's time.

How on earth do you have time read/teach yourself, attend lectures, find answers to your lecture questions, and then ask the ones you didn't find? Every semester there was at least one course where I had to sacrifice reading assignments/notes because the volume was insane (200+/night.)

One of my gripes about lectures was the professors who were researchers that couldn't really grasp the clinical significance of what they were teaching (ie everything was equally important all the time) or who thought human (not zoonotic) diseases were critical for our education, or really thought it was important to know when a particular interleukin was discovered. We had some awesome lecturers as well, but I can honestly say every awesome lecturer we had is a clinician who is still in the thick of medicine.

 

[nyanko]

How on earth do you have time read/teach yourself, attend lectures, find answers to your lecture questions, and then ask the ones you didn't find? Every semester there was at least one course where I had to sacrifice reading assignments/notes because the volume was insane (200+/night.)

washbucket isn't a vet student yet.

 

[anotherbusybee]

How on earth do you have time read/teach yourself, attend lectures, find answers to your lecture questions, and then ask the ones you didn't find? Every semester there was at least one course where I had to sacrifice reading assignments/notes because the volume was insane (200+/night.)

Glad it wasn't just me! Was starting feel a little ashamed there!

 

[StartingoverVet]

washbucket isn't a vet student yet.

Exactly.

Not that I don't value pre-vet's opinions, but in this issue, I had a very different opinion before and after vet school, which is why I made the thread.

I much preferred didactic learning before vet school. I just wanted the info presented to me, and I could pick it up easily. Especially because the pre-req material was much more conceptual than detail oriented (and the professors were better teachers in general).

I do agree that a combo might be best, but more so that the relevant info is given to you as a resource (like just give us the powerpoints of what you are going to essentially just read in class) and then work on the cases.

Clearly it is not for everyone, but my point is that even if you currently prefer the didactic style in undergrad, that may not be best option for you in vet school. Consider the type of material you are learning and the quantity before you jump to the conclusion that you are SURE you prefer didactic.

Just something to think about. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

 

[Trematode]

I am not in vet school, but find the topic interesting.

Were any of you exposed to PBL learning in undergrad? Did that influence your decision on what vet school to attend?
It is something I wish I had been exposed to more. I know one of my strengths was undertaking an undergraduate level thesis. The process of digging through information and writing it in a way that makes sense to me really helped me learn my topic. I also found I learned more when I had to present a random topic for classes. I had to find the information, condense it and present it in a way that anyone can understand it. That is as close to PBL as I ever experienced. How I learn best has influenced what my Plan B is if vet school does not work out.

 

[sumstorm]

$$$ was the biggest factor for where I attended. A year ago our attendance policy was relaxed (professors now determine attendance policy, previously it was mandatory and you could be recommended for academic review for failure to attend even if you passed the course adequately with a C); I think several of us, working with disability services, had a lot to do with that.

We had a PBL course first year. I loved it, most traditional students hated it. The reality is that my time in extramural general practice is a lot like that course; medicine is changing rapidly and best practices are impacted by those changes. So when a doctor sees a case of FIP for the first time in 6 years, they can ID it, but they still have to check to be sure the treatment (or lack thereof) is the same and that there aren't new differentials that they need to rule out. I think didactic learning promotes the idea that you can have all the info you need if you just learn all the material, but since the material is constantly changing, that isn't accurate. Our courses third year were basicly didactic with case reviews each week. I found that it was still regurgitation, and I still wasn't getting the 'own it' style of learning I needed. Also, the cases were classic presentations, but the ones I see while working often have a twist, or missing info, or some other oddity (concurrent disease, behavior issue that complicates things, etc.) oddly, our exams included such twists as well.

 

[sumstorm]

washbucket isn't a vet student yet.

Thanks for the heads up; I don't know of anyone that can claim that forever school so I thought wash bucket might have some secret method that would amaze me!

 

[scb44f]

I had a PBL medicine-type course in undergrad, but none of us knew enough to make it an effective way of learning anything. It basically taught me the process and showed me how it really does help you learn. My school offers a PBL elective in the block before we enter clinics, so I plan on taking that to maybe get into the mindset of thinking in that way.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Thanks for the heads up; I don't know of anyone that can claim that forever school so I thought wash bucket might have some secret method that would amaze me!

too good to be true = not true.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I'm not sure I'd enjoy PBL as a way to learn core info. I feel like when that happens, the person going home with the learning objective for a major topic (reading urinalysis, CBC/chem, anatomy, fluid therapy, differentials for x symptom) learns a lot but it's really hard for anyone else in the group to gain much from it when that person comes back and just kinda regurges a ton of info they had hours to digest. Even if the first round of didactic teaching doesn't stick, I kind of like that we've all had it before so that everyone in the group can really try to remember stuff and build on each others' knowledge first instead of just scattering to pieces because none of us have a clue about anything.

 

[sumstorm]

While we assigned in depth review to one person, all of us were responsible for surveying the materials that night. So while I would have skimmed the info on B vs T cell lymphoma, I wouldn't have searched out light scatter info if that wasn't my assigned topic. To be honest, I still couldn't really explain the details go light scatter for flow cytometry and I have covered that in two didactic courses, one series of case reviews, and a PBL course. The difference is in the PBL I figured out what resources to refresh myself and in the didactic I was tested on it... Post exam that info was rapidly flushed. If you rely on others to present the info that you need to know, isn't that just turning it back into didactic learning?

 

[Minnerbelle]

My point wasn't so much that I want other people to feed me info. It's that I'd I hadn't had any clin path or radiology or pathology prior to pbl, and I got a case with urinalysis, bloodwork, etc..., that would have been an overwhelming amount of info for me to cover adequately (even if just skimming).

All I'm saying is that I would much rather focus my attention on the learning objectives relevant to the case, rather than the basics. I would much rather focus on the pathophys of something like cushings, why you see the signs, changes in bloodwork, ultrasound changes, Treatment options, prognosis, evidence based medicine, etc... than "ok, so it says the urine is straw colored, is that normal? what is a normal color range for canine urine?" or "what is ALT?" It's really annoying when the group gets caught on something like that to me. There's so much to get out of one case, and a limited time to go through it. I personally would rather go into in-depth case discussions once everyone in the group has at least learned common lingo and know how, that's all. I guess it's just a difference in what we find more efficient.

 

[kakurubird]

washbucket isn't a vet student yet.

I still don't think I ever would have had the time (slash motivation...) to do that for all my classes in undergrad...

 

[that redhead]

I think didactic learning promotes the idea that you can have all the info you need if you just learn all the material, but since the material is constantly changing, that isn't accurate.

This is true. However, there are core concepts in many of the first year (and second year) classes that are relatively unchanging. That's the information I need to be spoonfed in a lecture format, the building blocks of learning the more "real" stuff. Once you get out of first and second year, I think moving toward PBL is absolutely beneficial toward being a practicing vet (as suggested by SOV) since you do need to be able to think on your feet/research your own stuff/etc.

 

[nyanko]

I might have talked about this elsewhere in here but our clin path course was presented in such a way that there was like, one lecture per week and 2 discussion/lab sections that were case based with homework/quizzes/etc and then at the end a comprehensive final (all of these mostly case based too).

I skipped every single didactic lecture (didn't even download the powerpoints from most of them) and got out of there with both a really good knowledge base that I still remember things from and a really good grade. I don't remember like, anything that was presented to me in lecture format that I never actively applied, regardless of how well I did in the class. I mean, I pretty much feel like all I've learned here is some random terminology. Those are some expensive words.

 

[ilovezeefishies]

I might have talked about this elsewhere in here but our clin path course was presented in such a way that there was like, one lecture per week and 2 discussion/lab sections that were case based with homework/quizzes/etc and then at the end a comprehensive final (all of these mostly case based too).

I skipped every single didactic lecture (didn't even download the powerpoints from most of them) and got out of there with both a really good knowledge base that I still remember things from and a really good grade. I don't remember like, anything that was presented to me in lecture format that I never actively applied, regardless of how well I did in the class. I mean, I pretty much feel like all I've learned here is some random terminology. Those are some expensive words.

True million dollar words I guess 😀 Or at least quarter-million dollar words.

 

[sumstorm]

@Minnerbelle & Redhead - so that suggests that didactic is better for you than PBL for some parts. I am the opposite; if someone presents a lecture to me, I literally won't remember any of it. If I have to go look up the anatomy to figure out the surgery, I never lose it. For me, even first year was binge/purge; I never had a solid grasp of anatomy until I took a surgical anatomy selective and we we're processing cadavers as we would in surgery. For me, I can't grasp the building blocks if I don't have the functioning picture, it is literally as relevant to me as learning medical coding. I honestly would have preferred our course work be flipped; medicine early, details to fill in the gaps later (3rd year in place of first year.) it probably doesn't help that for me, the core concepts presented did change hugely from when I graduated college (lots of name/genus changes, lots of 'we thought IL6 did X, but now we believe Y) and that the core concepts we were taught in first year aren't necessarily universally agreed upon by fourth year clinicians. I will say that some of our lectures were unforgettable and did focus on core concepts, but those were 2-4 / month.

 

[sumstorm]

I was considering this and had the realization that I would pass very few of the exams from the first 3 years if I had to take them now. I don't know of many of my classmates that could pass an anatomy exam and practical now. To me, that speaks to the relevance of what we learned.

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I think I'd like a mix. At UTK we have ABLEs 1-2 times a semester, but that is where we are given a case and have to work through everything ourselves. The professor/clinician in the room isn't allowed to give any input or correct if we are wrong, and no materials besides a dictionary are allowed in the room while we are working through the case. I'd rather be taught a concept through case studies, such as physiology of respiration through a respiratory challenged patient. I think I'd remember things more if more clinically relevant concepts were emphasized, especially such this as bacteriology.

If PBL at other schools is similar to what I've been exposed to at UTK, I wouldn't like it.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[485501]

Thanks for the heads up; I don't know of anyone that can claim that forever school so I thought wash bucket might have some secret method that would amaze me!

I still don't think I ever would have had the time (slash motivation...) to do that for all my classes in undergrad...

Sorry if I was misleading! I'm pretty darn certain I won't be able to do all that in vet school unless someone gives me a Time-Turner.

If I do have any 'secret method' for doing that in undergrad, it's that I actively enjoyed most of the readings we were given, and than I had pretty terrible teachers in high school so I spent four years completely teaching myself - no help from parents or older sib, no tutors - so I figured out by trial and error the best, quickest way for me to teach myself. Also, my social life was very limited, and most of my friends were as academically-obsessed as I was.


Separately: What do people think of lectures in which material is presented in context? I had a few classes in undergrad that used that format occasionally, and I really liked it. One that I remember is learning basic respiratory physiology by comparing mountain goats, sheep, cheetahs, 'average' humans, mountain climbers, and wind instrument players. Another was learning about factors that affect blood pressure, cardiac output, and fainting by looking at giraffes and WWI fighter pilots.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I was considering this and had the realization that I would pass very few of the exams from the first 3 years if I had to take them now. I don't know of many of my classmates that could pass an anatomy exam and practical now. To me, that speaks to the relevance of what we learned.

This is my biggest complaint. I am not sure what the purpose of an education that forces you to cram, knowing that for MOST people there will be very little retention. What is the point?

I feel like I spend so much freaking effort, and I retain so very little of what I learn. The knowledge return for the enormous effort is so small.

There are times, like today, that I wonder if I am just not cut out for this. They had a pathology review class of lesions we learned throughout the semester and not only could I not remember most of it, I oftentimes could not even remember that I knew the material at some point.

Clearly this style works for some people in school, but certainly not for me.. and I am no slacker, and certainly not stupid. <end rant>

 

[Packen]

I have been hesitant to post here, because I really don't know which I like better. We are exposed to both here at Edinburgh. For the first two years though, it has definitely been focused more on traditional lectures. But for the most part (aside from parasitology, bacteriology and immunology) the lecturers have all been clinicians, and that has a great impact on retention for me personally, because they bring the importance of why you need to know this when you graduate.

I also think that the examination technique (while I am cursing it atm) actually helps for better retention. You just can not cram and pass these exams. Plus, they are constantly having you look back at things you learned in previous classes and previous years. For example, currently in path, we will still need to know comparative anatomy of major species to identify the species from which the organ came. Or by blocking nerve X, what will the effect affect be?

I never really gave it much thought until someone mentioned it here, but I actually think I could pass all the exams from first year. It is definitely a layered approach and not a regurgitation approach. And granted, I might not do as well on the exams because many of the finer details (which get you the good grades here) have been lost.

So maybe it is not all about how the information is taught, but also a little bit on how the schools assess your understanding of the material??

 

[LetItSnow]

All I know is this: I remember my cases, but I don't remember my classes.

I think that says it all.

 

[sumstorm]

I never really gave it much thought until someone mentioned it here, but I actually think I could pass all the exams from first year. It is definitely a layered approach and not a regurgitation approach. And granted, I might not do as well on the exams because many of the finer details (which get you the good grades here) have been lost.

So maybe it is not all about how the information is taught, but also a little bit on how the schools assess your understanding of the material??

I think it also depends on the focus of the instructors; our anatomy instructors prided themselves on students learning 'more in anatomy than any other class'...our immunology professors felt the same way. My goal is to learn functional knowledge, not to learn the most factoids/credit hour. I memorized nerve blocks for anatomy that we have since had clinicians say they would never use. To me, it doen't matter if those nerve blocks were taught; if I never use them I will never remember them, but at some point I had to reduce time learning other, more relevant blocks, to try to learn the less useful ones. I feel the same way about drugs that are no longer manufactured. Until a pharm company manufactures those drugs again (and I don't mean production disruption issues) it is useless for me to learn them because there is a really good chance I will not encounter them again. I personally think far too many instructors are focused on teaching every detail and differentiating students by memorized minutiae to teach medicine effectively. Also, when we have professors that are good at focusing information, other profs will literally poke fun at how easy their exams are and even say things like they have to compensate for it ( because, apparently, it would be a real shame for everyone in the clss to really know the necessary material and do equally well on an exam.) As I study for the NAVLE, I can really tell which professors were effective and efficient because even odd ball questions on piglets vomiting trigger enough knowledge to figure out the best answer (and that prof was right; we only need to know specific pathogenicities for a few specific diseases.)

 

[sumstorm]

@SOV - I wonder that all the time. All I can tell you is that when I am in actual practices on extramural experiences, the wonder of this profession returns. It takes a while, and our clinicl year at the VTH isn't helping my perspectives on vet school, but when I get away long enough to ease up on the stress of needing to know everything all the time and get away from an arena where folks think staying around unnecessarily till midnight is proof of professional dedication, it all starts to come together again and I am excited about medicine and feel really joyful about this profession. Having said that, the best GP's I know hated vet school...and the unhappiest ones I know loved vet school. It isn't a huge sample size, but I hope it holds true for me.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think it also depends on the focus of the instructors; our anatomy instructors prided themselves on students learning 'more in anatomy than any other class'...our immunology professors felt the same way. My goal is to learn functional knowledge, not to learn the most factoids/credit hour. I memorized nerve blocks for anatomy that we have since had clinicians say they would never use. To me, it doen't matter if those nerve blocks were taught; if I never use them I will never remember them, but at some point I had to reduce time learning other, more relevant blocks, to try to learn the less useful ones. I feel the same way about drugs that are no longer manufactured. Until a pharm company manufactures those drugs again (and I don't mean production disruption issues) it is useless for me to learn them because there is a really good chance I will not encounter them again. I personally think far too many instructors are focused on teaching every detail and differentiating students by memorized minutiae to teach medicine effectively. Also, when we have professors that are good at focusing information, other profs will literally poke fun at how easy their exams are and even say things like they have to compensate for it ( because, apparently, it would be a real shame for everyone in the clss to really know the necessary material and do equally well on an exam.) As I study for the NAVLE, I can really tell which professors were effective and efficient because even odd ball questions on piglets vomiting trigger enough knowledge to figure out the best answer (and that prof was right; we only need to know specific pathogenicities for a few specific diseases.)

It is amazing how I have been 100% in agreement with everything you have said this week. It is uncanny.

I think a key point is I don't really give a flying f*** about distinguishing students, The goal of the school should not be ranking us, it should be about educating us well and not wasting our time. There still seems to be this feeling that if you don't make it hard, it is not worthwhile.

 

[sumstorm]

@SOV - I am considering an MPH. I headed over to UNC to check out their new joint program with our vet school. It requires ~15 credit hours than any of the other MPH programs (though it gets the same degree.) I also couldn't get a straight answer about funding/assistanceships. I was referred to the vet school with my questions. When ai met with the person in charge of the program, I was told the program is meant to be one of the most rigorous and strenuous programs around because it is for vets; they want it to stand out and prove it's worth by how dedicated students have to be to complete it. Consequently, they did not anticipate that students would have time tomhave an assistanceship and would rely completely on loans. To me, that is an accurate reflection of how vet school is handled; as if being exceedingly strenuous will change the perception of vet med within the overarching field of medicine. No one mentioned that these extra requirements would be beneficial except to distinguish the program as rigorous and develop a reputation for dvm mph's as hirable as do/md mph's. I think vet med is still reacting as if there is a chip on our shoulder rather than embracing the need to learn the common ailments, know how to look up the uncommon, and interact well with other fields of medicine, science, and the communities we work in. But that is just my opinion.