Case Western Reserve vs UVa

[ilikecardio1234]

Hi all! Very grateful to have these two acceptances, but need your help deciding between them! Was PTE at Case but got off the WL at UVA today, still waiting to hear from my top choice but would like to decide between these two as I only have a few days to pick!

CWRU Pros
1. Cleveland Clinic (have lots of connections to faculty here already). Would like to do rotations and likely continue my research in cardiology here.
2. Pass/Fail pre-clinical (no AOA)
3. Cleveland is closer to Chicago (brother lives there and I would be able to visit)
4. Cleveland is larger than Charlottesville, more things to do, restaurants, etc.
5. Higher rank but not by much. I feel it’s negligible.
6. H/HP/P/F clerkships?
7. Classes from 8 am - noon. Lots of free time. Unsure what UVA's schedule looks like!

CWRU Cons
1. Written/Essay style exams only every few months - would be more stressful than UVA's exams.
2. Lot of self-directed learning (IQ groups, etc.). Not fully sure if this is a pro or a con yet! Do they record lectures?
3. Cleveland is not the best city, winter will be tough but bearable.
4. Estimated Tuition is $75K per year, $300,000 in total.
5. ~2 year pre-clinical

UVA Pros

1. Pass/Fail (but with AOA for top 20%?)
2. Online, take-home, (NBME?) style exams (big bonus, I would love this)
3. 1.5 years pre-clinical
4. Tuition is $69K per year, $276,000 in total (still waiting on FA, but expect nothing)
5. Charlottesville is close to both NC and DC (best friends are nearby, family may move), beautiful place to live.
6. Recorded lectures.

UVA Cons

1. Hospital system is less prestigious / worse than Cleveland Clinic. Although it is great.
2. Charlottesville is smaller than Cleveland.
3. Cost of living is higher? Any insight here would be appreciated.
4. Restricted to Charlottesville for all 4 years due to WL offer.
5. AOA may make it tough to match into more prestigious programs?
6. Graded clerkships? Admit.org says it's P/F, however, their website seems like it is A - F graded?
7. Recorded lectures, although I am not sure what the class daily schedule is compared to case

Summary: Not sure except from the fact that UVA appears to be ~$24K cheaper over 4 years if COL is similar between C'ville and Cleveland. Other than that, it feels that I can't really go wrong with either unless UVA has fully graded clerkships, which would be a big downside. Both obviously have impressive match lists and I doubt I'd be restricted for IM. Insights from those attending/planning to attend either of these schools would be especially appreciated!

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[m1redsox]

Tie goes to the cheaper school IMO

 

[ilikecardio1234]

From what I've heard, the cost of living / rent in Charlottesville ends up making it about equal cost?

 

[thefirerisen]

Go to UVA! The schools are peers and especially since its cheaper + the exam structure seems to be a big deal for you. Classes at UVA are also 8 AM to noon, and are pre-recorded. Clinicals are P/F (it is a recent change so the website hasn't update). Happy to answer any other questions!

 

[ilikecardio1234]

Has it been easy for you to get research / connections at UVA?

The reason I’m still leaning toward CWRU is because I already have very strong connections at Cleveland Clinic / have done research at one of their campuses for 2 years. Everything curriculum related leans toward UVA, and although I’d prefer Cleveland over Charlottesville, saving $25K can offset that. But I’m not sure I’m ready to give up Cleveland Clinic especially since I’d probably look to specialize in cardiology.

 

[thefirerisen]

Has it been easy for you to get research / connections at UVA?

The reason I’m still leaning toward CWRU is because I already have very strong connections at Cleveland Clinic / have done research at one of their campuses for 2 years. Everything curriculum related leans toward UVA, and although I’d prefer Cleveland over Charlottesville, saving $25K can offset that. But I’m not sure I’m ready to give up Cleveland Clinic especially since I’d probably look to specialize in cardiology.

If you're concerned about the reputation of the specific programs, you can look at Doximity. In internal medicine, UVA is T40 while Cleveland Clinic is T30. But these will have a limited effect on you since they're residency programs and obviously, you'd be in the medical school which is a separate entity. The medical schools themselves are peers so you should go where you see a better fit. If you have strong connections at Cleveland Clinic and you think thats worth the extra 25k (plus interest), then go for it. In terms of research opportunities at UVA, I don't think you'll have any issue. There is lots of research that goes on here and you can easily find a project in any department/topic you're interested in.

 

[m1redsox]

Then go to Case. No wrong answer here!

 

[ilikecardio1234]

Is UVA considered a good enough program to where P/F clinical is an advantage? Vs H/HP/P/F at Case / CC

 

[pdidd3]

I’d say Case, no AOA and Cleveland Clinic, and in an actually city. P/F don’t matter if there is AOA, AOA matters if ur gunning for competitive residency spot

 

[ilikecardio1234]

I’d say Case, no AOA and Cleveland Clinic, and in an actually city. P/F don’t matter if there is AOA, AOA matters if ur gunning for competitive residency spot

So no AOA is better for academic IM? I know IM is not traditionally a competitive specialty, but academic IM is quite selective

 

[BigDawg101]

Definitely take UVA. Huge emphasis on student wellness and great student body and curriculum. Take-home exams and true P/F are awesome. Case also has a very large class size, and although it is affiliated with the Cleveland Clinic, that alone won't make as much of a difference for you as a medical school student. You also have more friends in the area and Charlottesville is a great place to live. Prestige is completely equivalent.

Disclaimer: Withdrew from UVA WL, Pre-II R at CWRU

 

[GreenLettuce]

Based on all the information I would recommend selecting Case Western.

1. Proximity to your brother in Chicago is a huge plus.
2. Coming in with already established connections and research is a significant benefit. You already have built in mentorship and you can show research longevity.
3. Prestige difference is definitely marginal however, I do give the clear edge to Case Western here.
4. You mentioned being interested in cardiology. Case Western/Cleveland Clinic has the best cardiothoracic training programs and excellent cardiovascular training programs generally.
5. UVA having AOA is an added stressor vs Case that was no AOA.
6. The clinical experiences you can have at the 4 hospitals associated with Case Western are incredibly diverse and expansive.

In general, I would absolutely recommend doing more research, asking doctors that you know, and maybe asking over on reddit to get more perspectives.

 

[golden_retriever_fan]

Case gives students NBME exams for practice that are ungraded. I think you should pick Case, the $$ difference is minor and with cost of living might end up being the same. That combined with 8-10am mandatory, 10-12pm optional means you have a ton of time to pursue whatever you want.

 

[BigDawg101]

Based on all the information I would recommend selecting Case Western.

1. Proximity to your brother in Chicago is a huge plus.
2. Coming in with already established connections and research is a significant benefit. You already have built in mentorship and you can show research longevity.
3. Prestige difference is definitely marginal however, I do give the clear edge to Case Western here.
4. You mentioned being interested in cardiology. Case Western/Cleveland Clinic has the best cardiothoracic training programs and excellent cardiovascular training programs generally.
5. UVA having AOA is an added stressor vs Case that was no AOA.
6. The clinical experiences you can have at the 4 hospitals associated with Case Western are incredibly diverse and expansive.

In general, I would absolutely recommend doing more research, asking doctors that you know, and maybe asking over on reddit to get more perspectives.

I really cannot see how you can give Case the "clear edge" over UVA here in terms of prestige. There is really no evidence for that. PDs will be able to see your clerkship grades at Case, and if you honored every clerkship at Case, you would also get AOA at UVA with a similar performance. If a PD truly cares about AOA and your school does not have it, they are going to judge your clerkship grades significantly. You will STILL have the stress of performing well in clerkships at both schools.

Cardiology is a good ways away from you at this point, and your interests could change considerably. Frankly, cardiology is something you can't really gun for in medical school, so don't let that be the deciding factor. The clinical training will be the exact same, and your brother all the way in Chicago won't be much of a support system. UVA has more of an emphasis on student wellness, is in a nicer place to live, is cheaper tuition-wise, has take-home exams, and very strong inter-disciplinary programs (Law, Business) which may become interesting to you at some point. It also has a shorter 1.5 year pre-clinical, which will give you more time down the road to do research. Pick the place where you would be happier at genuinely, and put prestige, your specialty-interests, and research aside. If this was IM residency, obviously Case-Western/CC would be the clear choice, but you are NOT a resident. You are a medical student, and there is no guarantee matching into CC by just going to Case.

 

[thefirerisen]

I really cannot see how you can give Case the "clear edge" over UVA here in terms of prestige. There is really no evidence for that. PDs will be able to see your clerkship grades at Case, and if you honored every clerkship at Case, you would also get AOA at UVA with a similar performance. If a PD truly cares about AOA and your school does not have it, they are going to judge your clerkship grades significantly. You will STILL have the stress of performing well in clerkships at both schools.

Cardiology is a good ways away from you at this point, and your interests could change considerably. Frankly, cardiology is something you can't really gun for in medical school, so don't let that be the deciding factor. The clinical training will be the exact same, and your brother all the way in Chicago won't be much of a support system. UVA has more of an emphasis on student wellness, is in a nicer place to live, is cheaper tuition-wise, has take-home exams, and very strong inter-disciplinary programs (Law, Business) which may become interesting to you at some point. It also has a shorter 1.5 year pre-clinical, which will give you more time down the road to do research. Pick the place where you would be happier at genuinely, and put prestige, your specialty-interests, and research aside. If this was IM residency, obviously Case-Western/CC would be the clear choice, but you are NOT a resident. You are a medical student, and there is no guarantee matching into CC by just going to Case.

+1 this. (Disclosures are obvious in my signature)

It is incorrect to say that Case has any benefit to UVA in terms of ranking/prestige. As I mentioned previously, the schools are peers. But if we're nitpicking, PD rankings favor UVA over Case (albeit slightly). If there is any prestige difference, the win goes to UVA over Case generally every time and that is true both inside of medicine and other related and non-related fields (including law, business, etc).

 

[ilikecardio1234]

All valid points from everyone, thanks a lot. Right now I am just trying to decide between wellness/less stress/true PF (w/ AOA though) vs. better city/more connections/slight edge in prestige (mostly b/c of CC). I feel that as a med student, especially in pre-clinical, I'd be a lot more at ease at UVA. But, it's hard to give up the impactful connections that come with Case. I think i need to sleep on it a few times hahaha

 

[BigDawg101]

Just some food for thought. Don't overblow the name of an affiliated hospital and sacrifice your wellness because of it. Cardiology is a long journey, and you want to be happy. I doubt your research at CC will be any more impactful than what you can accomplish at UVA, especially as only a medical student. And who is stopping you from spending a summer or two at the CC specifically to do research. You seem in love with CC, but not Case itself. You didn't get into Lerner, you got into Case. Take a look at the votes, I think it's clear what people think. But best of luck in your decision. 🙂

 

[ilikecardio1234]

Yea, I feel like I am really leaning toward UVA after reading everyone's advice and considering my own points. If I'm offered rotations at Inova for Phase 2/3, then that would tip it in UVAs favor even more b/c of proximity to DC/NoVa.

 

[pdidd3]

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So no AOA is better for academic IM? I know IM is not traditionally a competitive specialty, but academic IM is quite selective

If u come from a mid tier school with AOA, and don’t get AOA, it’s a very steep uphill battle to match the top IM residencies. Lucky for u, if u went to case you can develop those mentorship connections at one of the top cardiology programs in the world. Sure the hospital name don’t matter but, it will matter when Dr. Doofinshmirtz the world renowned electrophysiologist calls up his old buddies to let u into a good IM program.

I don’t know the internal metrics for getting AOA at UVA but ur gonna have to be in the top X% of the class, likely including clerkship grades. Is that harder than honors at Case?

They both match well, and can’t go wrong with UVA either, but I disagree with the people below that UVA is obvious, it’s not. They each come with pros and cons and you have to put in work at both to match top tier IM.

 

[ilikecardio1234]

I could not find any info online about UVA's AOA requirements. Currently have a line of communication with their admissions office so perhaps I can ask them. You make a very good point, but would UVA fall into that category of mid-tier with AOA? From what I know, UVA is solidly T30, maybe 3-4 "ranks" below Case at worst. Like BigDawg said, if I am capable of Honoring clerkships at Case, that could mean AOA at UVA. It's certainly not an obvious decision which is what makes it so hard!

Also to add on to the info about UVA: clerkships are true P/F with opportunities to earn distinction in different categories

 

[BigDawg101]

UVA is not mid-tier, idk what you are smoking @pdidd3. It's a well-respected school. You'd struggle matching into MGH or JHU or UCSF from EITHER school. One letter of recommendation from somebody at the CC is not gonna make a difference, and if it's that over your genuine wellness and happiness, the decision is obvious. Case and UVA are both T-30, and you can construct a difference between them if you want, but it's truly all in your head. What if you like anatomy and wanna do surgery? What if you realize you dislike patient-facing care and wanna do rads or path? You will learn ALL of this in medical school, and you may as well choose the better curriculum, better student body, and least stressful env't for that.

 

[ilikecardio1234]

The argument makes it seem as if Case is also mid-tier, so I'm confused

UVA is not mid-tier, idk what you are smoking @pdidd3. It's a well-respected school. You'd struggle matching into MGH or JHU or UCSF from EITHER school. One letter of recommendation from somebody at the CC is not gonna make a difference, and if it's that over your genuine wellness and happiness, the decision is obvious. Case and UVA are both T-30, and you can construct a difference between them if you want, but it's truly all in your head. What if you like anatomy and wanna do surgery? What if you realize you dislike patient-facing care and wanna do rads or path? You will learn ALL of this in medical school, and you may as well choose the better curriculum, better student body, and least stressful env't for that.

 

[BigDawg101]

THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME OH MY GOODNESS. Both schools are between top tier and mid-tier. Let's call it mid-top tier so we can all sleep at night. A mid-tier school is Wake, Jefferson, VCU etc. The argument is you'll be happier at UVA.

 

[ilikecardio1234]

Love the passion BigDawg 🤣

 

[BigDawg101]

ChatGPT votes Case Western. Damn. I expected better. Of course, it is also in love with the CC.

 

[pdidd3]

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I could not find any info online about UVA's AOA requirements. Currently have a line of communication with their admissions office so perhaps I can ask them. You make a very good point, but would UVA fall into that category of mid-tier with AOA? From what I know, UVA is solidly T[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]], maybe [emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]]-[emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji[emoji6]][emoji[emoji6]]]]] "ranks" below Case at worst. Like BigDawg said, if I am capable of Honoring clerkships at Case, that could mean AOA at UVA. It's certainly not an obvious decision which is what makes it so hard!

Also to add on to the info about UVA: clerkships are true P/F with opportunities to earn distinction in different categories

Yes lol UVA falls into that category of mid tier. You know if you are at an ivory tower program, if you are not then you are mid tier, that’s what I mean by that.

I wish BigDawg was as correct as they are passionate, but the whole point of this thread is to help OP find a difference between the two. Case has three obvious benefits: city of Cleveland, Cleveland Clinic as an affiliated IM program, and top cardiology mentors. Mentors who don’t just write a LOR, but actively call PDs at top places, yes this is how it works, and yes these calls do matter! UVA has P/F with AOA, which really just means internally graded.

OP you told us u wanted to do cardiology, if that is the case or if you want to do any other competitive speciality then networking and finding mentors at Cleveland Clinic will help you a lot. Of course matching well will have to do more with you than the school, but this choice is all up to u. I’m telling you what I would do.

 

[ilikecardio1234]

Do you think it would be difficult to have those same calls placed from someone at UVA? Obviously CC is CC, but it doesn't feel like I'd be restricting myself significantly on the caliber of PI/mentor who could call on my behalf by attending UVA. At the end of the day, if I can't cut it at Case with their essay exams, whoever is calling on my behalf is a lesser priority

 

[BigDawg101]

What even are the ivory tower programs according to you? Just curious @pdidd3 since you seem to lump everything outside of your definition of "prestige" into the same category. Saying UVA is mid-tier is honestly insulting to @ilikecardio1234 given how hard they probably worked to get that acceptance.

UVA is an amazing school. Anybody can make calls on your behalf, and remember medicine is a small world. Plenty of people realize in IM they want to do cardiology and match just fine, and you are way ahead of the ball game at this moment. Take a research year at the CC, or another top-IM program. The next 6-8 months, it's going to be nearly impossible to do much of anything other than study. I don't see how going to Case specifically, especially if you already have the connections in your pocket and are willing to take a research year, will make ANY sort of difference. Your grades and activities are FAR more important at the moment, and you will have several years, including during IM, to build that CV. For the record, based on the 2025 Match List, 1/44 IM matches at Case got into Cleveland Clinic. Also, the Cleveland Clinic Lerner students are included, and they significantly bias the match list.

 

[ilikecardio1234]

tbh mid tier isn't any sort of insult to me, i am just happy i got in somewhere, much less these 2 amazing programs. i don't see myself taking a research year unless it's absolutely necessary at either school. wherever i decide is likely where i'll be doing research over the summer, electives, etc. I don't have any desire to match to CC specifically, just any academic IM.

also what are the thoughts on rotations at Inova after pre-clinical? would i be losing out on any opportunities / research by choosing that based off location? I would love to be in Nova and if it isn't a disadvantage, that alone might make me commit to UVA.

 

[BigDawg101]

I'm just saying somebody needs to take @pdidd3 off their high horse. Guess what, he'll be in residency and have to deal with people from UVA and Case and other "mid-tiers" and his degree from Columbia or Duke or wherever he is going won't mean ****. Academically, there is no difference between students from these places and Columbia and Duke or Vanderbilt. The only difference is leadership, some crazy X factor, URM status, or extensive research portfolios, a lot of which is luck and knowing the right people.

To your point, I think Inova is in a great place, and I highly doubt you'll miss out on much. Clerkship education IS less established there, but you'll be able to ask current medical students who might be able to better inform you about the shift to Inova. Perhaps @thefirerisen can better inform you about it.

 

[Frog333]

I'm just saying somebody needs to take @pdidd3 off their high horse. Guess what, he'll be in residency and have to deal with people from UVA and Case and other "mid-tiers" and his degree from Columbia or Duke or wherever he is going won't mean ****. Academically, there is no difference between students from these places and Columbia and Duke or Vanderbilt. The only difference is leadership, some crazy X factor, URM status, or extensive research portfolios, a lot of which is luck and knowing the right people.

To your point, I think Inova is in a great place, and I highly doubt you'll miss out on much. Clerkship education IS less established there, but you'll be able to ask current medical students who might be able to better inform you about the shift to Inova. Perhaps @thefirerisen can better inform you about it.

I think @pdidd3 is just rage baiting. Wouldn't pay too much mind to it. I personally vote for UVA. I do have bias since I went to undergrad there and got the A for their med school. I also spent a lot of time working in the hospital and the med students seem VERY happy. I can also say that research at UVA is very easy to get into. Even as an undergrad there were tons of labs open. C-ville is a great place with tons of stuff to do. The people are also really kind. My car broke down twice and someone always stopped to help me out.