Cases. We need cases.

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OB1🤙

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And I don't have any cuz I'm in exile in the unit.

Plank's been trying to get some conversation going, but the other gurus are yawning and ignoring the forum. No bueno.

We need cases.

Let's hear them.
 
54 y/o with long hx of chronic pancreatitis secondary to etoh. He has HIV cd4 count of 524 as well as chronic anemia. presents for distal pancreatectomy and splenectomy. aline and piv in holding area as well as t6/7 epidural placed by me on the first pass after washing his back with betadine and using sterile technique( gloves, hat, mask, sterile kit). case unremarkable, great epidural for 3 days. get paged today for frank pus out of the epidural site. whats next?
 
54 y/o with long hx of chronic pancreatitis secondary to etoh. He has HIV cd4 count of 524 as well as chronic anemia. presents for distal pancreatectomy and splenectomy. aline and piv in holding area as well as t6/7 epidural placed by me on the first pass after washing his back with betadine and using sterile technique( gloves, hat, mask, sterile kit). case unremarkable, great epidural for 3 days. get paged today for frank pus out of the epidural site. whats next?

Alright, I'll bite. Go see the patient. Assess vitals. Do focused neuro exam of extremeties. Look at the site -- redness, really pus or not, palpable mass around epidural site that could be a pocket of infection, back pain? If in doubt, remove epidural and send it for culture. If you are really concerned about epidural abscess, you will likely have to get CT. Start antibiotics to cover S. aureus and consider anti-fungals.

Any disagreements?
 
54 y/o with long hx of chronic pancreatitis secondary to etoh. He has HIV cd4 count of 524 as well as chronic anemia. presents for distal pancreatectomy and splenectomy. aline and piv in holding area as well as t6/7 epidural placed by me on the first pass after washing his back with betadine and using sterile technique( gloves, hat, mask, sterile kit). case unremarkable, great epidural for 3 days. get paged today for frank pus out of the epidural site. whats next?

remove catheter, tell primary team to consult ID if not done already to reassess HIV, culture site, start PCA and antibiotics. Follow patient for signs of epidural abscess.
 
remove catheter, tell primary team to consult ID if not done already to reassess HIV, culture site, start PCA and antibiotics. Follow patient for signs of epidural abscess.

Would you go for an MRI then? Seems like waiting for (neurologic, although this would not be the only...) symptoms could be dicey when noninvasive (although expensive) imaging is available.
 
Would you go for an MRI then? Seems like waiting for (neurologic, although this would not be the only...) symptoms could be dicey when noninvasive (although expensive) imaging is available.

So you would order an MRI for a likely superficial infection on an asymptomatic patient? Do you do this for every patient with an infected catheter site? No, I wouldnt get an MRI at this time on this patient.
 
So you would order an MRI for a likely superficial infection on an asymptomatic patient? Do you do this for every patient with an infected catheter site? No, I wouldnt get an MRI at this time on this patient.

Agree,
The pus only means subcutaneous infection.
Remove epidural, send pus and catheter for culture and sensitivity.
Monitor patient for signs of systemic or epidural infection.
Start on empiric antibiotics to cover gram positive bacteria and adjust that treatment according to culture and sensitivity.
Get ID involved.
 
Agree,
The pus only means subcutaneous infection.
Remove epidural, send pus and catheter for culture and sensitivity.
Monitor patient for signs of systemic or epidural infection.
Start on empiric antibiotics to cover gram positive bacteria and adjust that treatment according to culture and sensitivity.
Get ID involved.

Evidence wise - case reports are the predominant source.
The BJA published a review article:
[SIZE=-1]British Journal of Anaesthesia 2006 96(3):292-302

Main risk factors for epidural abscess (in general, not limited to association with epidural analgesia) were:
[/SIZE]
  1. "Compromised immunity: diabetes mellitus,steroid or other immunosuppressivetherapy, malignancy, pregnancy,HIV infection, alcoholism andcirrhosis.
  2. Disruption of the spinal column: degenerative disease and disruption by trauma, surgery or instrumentation, including discography, chemonucleosis and central neuraxial block, the latter also providing a direct portal for organisms. Even temporally distant blunt trauma is a risk factor.
  3. Source of infection: respiratory, urinary and minor soft tissue infections may all act as primary sources of haematogenous spread; i.v. drug abusers are constantly at risk, as are patients with indwelling vascular catheters."
Presentation:
"The early signs and symptoms may be vague, the ‘classic' triad of back pain, fever and variable neurological deficit occurred in only 13% of patients by the time of diagnosis, and contributed to diagnostic delay in 75%."
[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]Clinical features in post anaesthesia epidural infections:
"The history is, as with the ‘spontaneous' lesion, typically vague with fever, backache and leukocytosis occurring 4 or more days after instrumentation. There may be evidence of superficial infection at the needle/catheter insertion site, and neurological deficit may or may not be present."

Infection timing in relationship to neuraxial insertion
"Duration of catheterization: studies quoting a low incidence of epidural infection often relate to catheterization for 2 days or less, but longer duration has been associated with an incidence of infection of 4.3%, a figure approaching that for intravascular devices. If increases in infection rates with time do approach those for intravascular devices it may be appropriate to extrapolate from data on pulmonary artery catheters where a greater risk of colonization exists after 5 days. Further, intraventricular devices do not become infected before day 3, with 85% of infections occurring after day 5, lending some support to the widespread practice of removing an epidural catheter by day 4. Figures for intraventricular devices may not be directly relevant, but there can be few indications for such an extended period of epidural block, and re-assessment of the risk/benefit ratio would certainly be wise after 4 days, if not sooner. It has been suggested that the administration set and filter should be changed after 3 days and that the anaesthetist who placed the catheter must take full part in any decision to leave it for longer."
[SIZE=-1]
So - i[/SIZE]f he has back pain, is febrile (no mention so far as to whether he did or didn't) and has neurological symptoms - he gets an MRI (which I hope everyone would agree with). If he has neurological signs, he gets an MRI.

What if he has back pain, no fever and no neurological symptoms? Or fever only?

Given the detrimental outcomes of an epidural abscess, and the fact that a delayed diagnosis may worsen neurological outcomes, I would have a very low threshold for an MRI. It's non-invasive, minimal risk, no radiation. If it's clean - great. If not, then there is your answer, call neurosurg and ID. For this man with superficial infection (who is probably getting something for pain relief that might suppress his normal febrile response and won't mount a normal response to prevent spread of bacterial infection) I would go for the cautious approach and MRI him. Anyway, where I come from I'm fairly certain that as soon as ID got involved, they'd be ordering one anyway, they do love their investigations 🙁

If he does have an epidural abscess, it doesn't automatically follow that such an abscess was caused by the epidural.🙂
 
good article. However, what's your endpoint? Are you going to order serial MRIs to make sure an abscess isnt developing during the course of antibiotic treatment? I agree, if he has any symptoms then he gets an MRI. However, I cant see the justification for ordering an MRI on an asymptomatic patient in this situation.
 
The OP did not mention back pain, fever or any neurological findings.
So, there is no indication for an MRI at this point.
Sure you can do it but it's just not indicated.

Absence of them was also not indicated... perhaps the OP could comment?

I confess my approach is being highly influenced by my experience on medical oncology and their approach to MRIs to rule out cord compression. Lots and lots of negative MRIs, often performed only for one (sometimes, I thought, soft) symptom (in 3 months I think one of the many 3-4 dozen MRIs for "?cord compression" had neurological symptoms that weren't pre-existing). Why do so many when you know the bulk of them are going to be negative... because the consequences are so significant.

Anyway, the world is safe from my over investigating because I can't order an MRI yet 🙁
 
so, when i went to see him he was neurologically intact, just pus from the site as well as induration. I promptly pulled the epidural, before i could recomend close observation the surgical team had already ordered a ct of chest and abdomen looking for pus somewhere else to explain his white count and fever. It was the pain service that had found the infection around the epidural site when he got back from the ct. They decided to i/d the induration in his back and no much came out and he was very pissed as it is the first pain he had post op. well loooong story short he had a sub q collection of pus and thats it. i spoke with id and they said that it is not uncommon in there literature to see this in pt's with hiv. they have had no cases in our hospital that ended up with an epidural abcess. he is getting some cefazolin and i will follow up with details as they copme in.
 
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