CCLCM vs top 10.

[2018throwawayCCqs]

This may be an atypical X vs. Y thread (apologies if this post belongs elsewhere).

I have been very fortunate to be accepted to CCLCM and two top 10 schools at this point in the cycle (undisclosed to remain anonymous--the specific schools aren't too important for my larger question). I was set on choosing CCLCM over top 10 schools for many reasons. I love the program structure, lack of grades, small class size, research focus, clinical opportunities, and faculty support (not to mention free tuition). Overall, the vibe of this program aligned really well with my personality.

However, based on my reading on SDN (including one of the CCLCM X vs. Y threads from this year), it seems like CCLCM isn't really considered a top program by the larger community here. People on SDN routinely recommend choosing schools that are ranked higher and have greater name recognition (e.g., Hopkins). I've heard some people (in real life) also recommend pursuing a top 10 name for the purposes of prestige.

This has really puzzled me. I thought the Cleveland Clinic's name would be equally as impressive and there would be no opportunity cost to choosing this program over other "higher ranked" or "more prestigious" schools. Their match list looks incredible. Am I mistaken? Is it because you get your degree from Case Western? I'd like to choose CCLCM for its actual program, but would a top 10 school help me out more in the short and long term?

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[libertyyne]

What are you looking to do ? Does cleaveland have access to home residency programs in that field? I think the free tuition offer is amazing and I personally would take that, however at this level you need to be thinking specifics , like who do you want to do reasearch with or what programs are you interested in and which school has the biggest name for that? I dont think CCLCM will hold you back and they arent ranked because they dont submit to the rankings if I am correct, however access to world class faculty and research institutes is really what I would think about in your case.
As an aside, i personally would not go to CCLCM because of this https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/broken-brain/
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/fu...isnomer-in-the-world-of-integrative-medicine/

 

[2018throwawayCCqs]

What are you looking to do ? Does cleaveland have access to home residency programs in that field? I think the free tuition offer is amazing and I personally would take that, however at this level you need to be thinking specifics , like who do you want to do reasearch with or what programs are you interested in and which school has the biggest name for that? I dont think CCLCM will hold you back and they arent ranked because they dont submit to the rankings if I am correct, however access to world class faculty and research institutes is really what I would think about in your case.
As an aside, i personally would not go to CCLCM because of this

Thanks for responding. In terms of a specific specialty, I am not sure yet. I know I am interested in academic medicine, but that could take me toward cardiology, oncology, immunology, or some other medical subspecialty. I know Cleveland Clinic is renowned for almost every subspecialty of internal medicine (#1 for cardiology, top 10 for all others). From what I've seen, their internal medicine program is ranked well (top 20) but obviously isn't at the level of Hopkins, MGH, or UCSF.

Based on this, it seems like CCLCM would set me up well (especially with its research integration). Obviously the top 10 schools would set me up well too. I guess my question is would their name offer me an advantage (beyond home residency advantage)?

 

[libertyyne]

Thanks for responding. In terms of a specific specialty, I am not sure yet. I know I am interested in academic medicine, but that could take me toward cardiology, oncology, immunology, or some other medical subspecialty. I know Cleveland Clinic is renowned for almost every subspecialty of internal medicine (#1 for cardiology, top 10 for all others). From what I've seen, their internal medicine program is ranked well (top 20) but obviously isn't at the level of Hopkins, MGH, or UCSF.

Based on this, it seems like CCLCM would set me up well (especially with its research integration). Obviously the top 10 schools would set me up well too. I guess my question is would their name offer me an advantage (beyond home residency advantage)?

What other advantage are you looking at? It doesnt quite have the same household cache' as some of the other top 10's have. I am unsure of the amount of research dollars it has either, or if their research institutes are as prominent as the other top 10's.

 

[2018throwawayCCqs]

What other advantage are you looking at? It doesnt quite have the same household cache' as some of the other top 10's have. I am unsure of the amount of research dollars it has either, or if their research institutes are as prominent as the other top 10's.

There's not really any other advantage. Location wise, I don't have a huge preference (in fact, I'd be happy to go to residency at a reputable program in the midwest). Research wise, I have heard very good things. Obviously they won't have the breadth of super basic science research as a traditional university, but their clinical and translational research opportunities seem to be excellent (which is more of what I'm interested in). And I've heard students can elect to do their research year at another institution if there is a special opportunity elsewhere.

I don't really care about household names, more about perceived reputation within medicine and to residency programs. To my naive eye, it seems like CCLCM is among the top tiers in this respect based on their consistently phenomenal match list.

But from the way you're asking the question, it sounds like you are leaning toward recommending one of the top 10 schools.

 

[scienceguy95]

Honestly I don’t know what SDN has against CCLCM. The above poster’s reason for not choosing CCLCM is particularly absurd. I am fairly confident, with the selective pool of applicants they accept, many likely choose it over a top 10 school.

I think I know what thread you’re alluding to (I was defending CCLCM in it). Obviously not everyone shares my sentiment, but I personally think that there are no advantages of attending a top 10 school over CCLCM. At this caliber, pick the school you think you’ll be most successful at.

 

[Orthopedics101]

I think what people overlook and what I found out during my interview day is that CCLCM cross accepts with a lot of top 20 MSTP applicants. With money not being a problem, other intangible factors come into play (location, fit, support system) that is different for each person and likely plays a bigger role in their decision than any perceived "prestige" difference. I think if you like the curriculum (which is for a very particular type of person) and you can see yourself thriving in that environment, then do not be afraid to choose CCLCM.

 

[libertyyne]

CCLM does have objectively less money for research compared to Mayo almost 1/4th of Mayo's research grants . And one of the reasons Mayo is not on the top of the list is because of research dollars.
I dont know what it works out to , and what the differences would be in terms of day to day access to research.

That being said, CCLM wont close any doors that a t-20 would close, but conversely its not going to open any doors either.

 

[Orthopedics101]

CCLM does have objectively less money for research compared to Mayo almost 1/4th of Mayo's research grants . And one of the reasons Mayo is not on the top of the list is because of research dollars.
I dont know what it works out to , and what the differences would be in terms of day to day access to research.

That being said, CCLM wont close any doors that a t-20 would close, but conversely its not going to open any doors either.

I think total research dollars, like average step 1 score, is one of those factors that are nice on paper to look at and compare with other schools but mean very little to a medical student. How their departments are seen by program directors and the type of talent they attract are much more important and CCLCM is among the best in that regard.

 

[libertyyne]

I think total research dollars, like average step 1 score, is one of those factors that are nice on paper to look at and compare with other schools but mean very little to a medical student. How their departments are seen by program directors and the type of talent they attract are much more important and CCLCM is among the best in that regard.

I dont have time to look this up, I briefly looked at their internal med residency program. It has DO's and not exactly full of t10's. Even their ortho program has IMGs!

It is an excellent school, But lets not say that it is better than every or even most schools on t-10. even on the strength of their residency programs.

 

[scienceguy95]

I dont have time to look this up, I briefly looked at their internal med residency program. It has DO's and not exactly full of t10's. Even their ortho program has IMGs!

It is an excellent school, But lets not say that it is better than every or even most schools on t-10. even on the strength of their residency programs.

Are you implying that having DOs and IMGs diminishes the reputation of otherwise the #2 hospital in the country?

I think I need a break from SDN...

 

[libertyyne]

Are you implying that having DOs and IMGs diminishes the reputation of otherwise the #2 hospital in the country?

I think I need a break from SDN...

No, it displays the competitiveness of the residency program. Residency programs have squat to do with the quality of a hospital.

 

[scienceguy95]

No, it displays the competitiveness of the residency program. Residency programs have squat to do with the quality of a hospital.

I’m fairly certain Mayo takes IMGs too. CCF is a top 20 internal medicine program. Obviously it’s no MGH or JHU, but it has a greater reputation than powerhouses like Stanford and U Chicago (source: Top 24 Internal Medicine Residencies, in Physicians' Opinions). Not to mention it’s top 10 for every subspecialty of internal medicine.

 

[fingerscrossed14]

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[Orthopedics101]

I dont have time to look this up, I briefly looked at their internal med residency program. It has DO's and not exactly full of t10's. Even their ortho program has IMGs!

It is an excellent school, But lets not say that it is better than every or even most schools on t-10. even on the strength of their residency programs.

I don't think it's better, just as competitive. I believe more in ranking clusters rather than individual schools (Harvard and hopkins and others being the best schools instead of trying to decide which one is better) and CCLCM is up there with the best. And no matter how good the overall program is, schools have specialties they aren't known for. If I'm not mistaken, Hopkins ortho program isn't really all that right?

 

[libertyyne]

I’m fairly certain Mayo takes IMGs too. CCF is a top 20 internal medicine program. Obviously it’s no MGH or JHU, but it has a greater reputation than powerhouses like Stanford and U Chicago (source: Top 24 Internal Medicine Residencies, in Physicians' Opinions). Not to mention it’s top 10 for every subspecialty of internal medicine.

so you want to make a decision based on reputation of residencies , yet the reputation of schools doesnt matter?

The only reason we are having this discussion is because its not on the usnews list. There is a reason it is not on the list, because it believes its doesnt get fair placement and doesnt submit the data. Thats fine. If I was to rank CCLM it would be a solid t-20. You should also think about why they have free tuition, they want to attract the best and brightest that would usually just end up going to t-10.

That being said OP's decision should be made on fit and curriculum, even weather, because at this level landing residencies is not the problem, its where OP will be happy and set themselves up for success.

 

[scienceguy95]

so you want to make a decision based on reputation of residencies , yet the reputation of schools doesnt matter?

The only reason we are having this discussion is because its not on the usnews list. There is a reason it is not on the list, because it believes its doesnt get fair placement and doesnt submit the data. Thats fine. If I was to rank CCLM it would be a solid t-20. You should also think about why they have free tuition, they want to attract the best and brightest that would usually just end up going to t-10.

That being said OP's decision should be made on fit and curriculum, even weather, because at this level landing residencies is not the problem, its where OP will be happy and set themselves up for success.

I agree with you generally. However, I believe Lerner isn’t ranked because it is lumped together with Case Western (technically it’s a separate track within their school of medicine). Case, while no Harvard, is ranked 25 which is essentially top tier.

I’m sure the scholarship helps attract bright students, but the type of applicant that gets into Lerner has a very solid chance of getting at least one other full ride to a top 20 school. Their program is very unique in its overall structure and mission.

 

[BombsAway]

Free>>>Harvard>Hopkins....

 

[Lawpy]

This may be an atypical X vs. Y thread (apologies if this post belongs elsewhere).

I have been very fortunate to be accepted to CCLCM and two top 10 schools at this point in the cycle (undisclosed to remain anonymous--the specific schools aren't too important for my larger question). I was set on choosing CCLCM over top 10 schools for many reasons. I love the program structure, lack of grades, small class size, research focus, clinical opportunities, and faculty support (not to mention free tuition). Overall, the vibe of this program aligned really well with my personality.

However, based on my reading on SDN (including one of the CCLCM X vs. Y threads from this year), it seems like CCLCM isn't really considered a top program by the larger community here. People on SDN routinely recommend choosing schools that are ranked higher and have greater name recognition (e.g., Hopkins). I've heard some people (in real life) also recommend pursuing a top 10 name for the purposes of prestige.

This has really puzzled me. I thought the Cleveland Clinic's name would be equally as impressive and there would be no opportunity cost to choosing this program over other "higher ranked" or "more prestigious" schools. Their match list looks incredible. Am I mistaken? Is it because you get your degree from Case Western? I'd like to choose CCLCM for its actual program, but would a top 10 school help me out more in the short and long term?

I don't think CCLCM is at the same level as Top 10 schools (and it's not in the same league as Harvard/Stanford/Hopkins/UCSF). This is mainly due to program directors' perceptions and the significance of US News Rankings (yes people dislike these rankings but program directors follow them and they are prone to subjective biases like anyone else).

In the end, it depends on your priorities. If cost matters, go to CCLCM no question. If prestige matters, go to Top 10 schools. CCLCM won't close doors and all options remain open as long as you do well in school.

If you think CCLCM is a good fit for you, go there. A productive atmosphere that's conducive to medical school success is far more important than any marginal prestige points but feeling unhappy/miserable in school.

 

[scienceguy95]

I don't think CCLCM is at the same level as Top 10 schools (and it's not in the same league as Harvard/Stanford/Hopkins/UCSF). This is mainly due to program directors' perceptions and the significance of US News Rankings (yes people dislike these rankings but program directors follow them and they are prone to subjective biases like anyone else).

In the end, it depends on your priorities. If cost matters, go to CCLCM no question. If prestige matters, go to Top 10 schools. CCLCM won't close doors and all options remain open as long as you do well in school.

If you think CCLCM is a good fit for you, go there. A productive atmosphere that's conducive to medical school success is far more important than any marginal prestige points but feeling unhappy/miserable in school.

While obviously CCLCM isn’t as prestigious as Harvard, I disagree with the notion on SDN that it isn’t prestigious. I would choose CCLCM over a “top 10” school like Michigan any day of the week regardless of cost.

I think what OP is to referring to in terms of prestige is not household name, but rather whether going to a top 10 will open more doors than going to CCLCM. I really don’t think this is the case. The Cleveland Clinic is world renowned medical institution and the program’s match lists have always been dominated by academic powerhouses

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

@2018throwawayCCqs

Most of SDN has never been to the Cleveland Clinic, let alone really actually looked at CCLCM. So take whatever most say with an unhealthily large grain of salt. This applies to anybody comparing any school on here.

When it comes to comparing schools, SDN is good at helping make sure one has thought of all the variables that should go into the calculation (cost, location, etc), but only the individual actually making the choice (and sometimes people who have made the choice before) actually have the data to fill those variables. Occasionally somebody who has no connection with the program may have a useful insight, but usually they are providing anecdotal evidence based on some gossip they heard 3 years ago - certainly not evidence worthy of making a big decision on.

You're right to think of cost, prestige, location, fit with curriculum, etc. Only you know how much the money helps you, only you know how much you value household prestige, only you know how you felt about the curriculum and the extra research year. Neither the Cleveland Clinic, one of the largest and resource-rich healthcare insitutions in the world, nor a top 10 medical school, also likely amongst the most resource-rich healthcare insitutions in the world, will limit you in medicine. You weren't naive to think the Cleveland clinic was good - rather, based on the fact you've been to Cleveland you know more than 90% of people commenting!

So congrats on the successful cycle, hope SDN helps you think of questions you want answered about the schools you're considering (and I would reach out to those schools and ask for tangible examples as answers to your questions, not just some sales pitch), but do research elsewhere and trust your gut and own interpretation rather than putting too much emphasis on the answers to those questions you get from random people on here.

 

[carrots28]

This may be an atypical X vs. Y thread (apologies if this post belongs elsewhere).

I have been very fortunate to be accepted to CCLCM and two top 10 schools at this point in the cycle (undisclosed to remain anonymous--the specific schools aren't too important for my larger question). I was set on choosing CCLCM over top 10 schools for many reasons. I love the program structure, lack of grades, small class size, research focus, clinical opportunities, and faculty support (not to mention free tuition). Overall, the vibe of this program aligned really well with my personality.

However, based on my reading on SDN (including one of the CCLCM X vs. Y threads from this year), it seems like CCLCM isn't really considered a top program by the larger community here. People on SDN routinely recommend choosing schools that are ranked higher and have greater name recognition (e.g., Hopkins). I've heard some people (in real life) also recommend pursuing a top 10 name for the purposes of prestige.

This has really puzzled me. I thought the Cleveland Clinic's name would be equally as impressive and there would be no opportunity cost to choosing this program over other "higher ranked" or "more prestigious" schools. Their match list looks incredible. Am I mistaken? Is it because you get your degree from Case Western? I'd like to choose CCLCM for its actual program, but would a top 10 school help me out more in the short and long term?

Current student here so inherent bias present. When I talked to other doctors outside the midewest, they seemed pretty impressed and I think that comes with the CCF name. So it's not like it is not well known outside the midwest. I have friends in top 10 programs as you say. I have noticed a key difference based on what they have said to me. One is that they are incredibly stressed for grades and honors status in their school. Imagine putting all the top people in one school. With the way things are set up, you focus more on professional goals rather than grades and this changes the atmosphere a lot with respect to your classmates based on my discussion with other students from other schools. I find the environment much more collegial and relaxed than I would have expected because of that. Also, I find that the most invaluable thing you can get from this school is good mentorship opportunities with faculty. It's a small school so there is a lot of contact you can get with faculty. If you want to do research there are so many research things going on that you won't know what do with yourself. I would say the focus is more on clinical research and less on basic science, but there are opportunities available for that if you choose.

Choose a place that you think will make you happy. I would also think about location too as a consideration.

 

[echacha]

CCLM is equally prestigious/competitive/amazing of a program as any of the top 5 schools (with the exception of Harvard being substantially preferable IMO), and better than almost any school in the country. If you think you would be happy there, go for it!

 

[Jpers]

CCLM is equally prestigious/competitive/amazing of a program as any of the top 5 schools (with the exception of Harvard being substantially preferable IMO), and better than almost any school in the country. If you think you would be happy there, go for it!

Why do you say Harvard is in such a league of its own?