Cedars vs. Olive View vs. Harbor

[DrDre3000]

I am really hoping to end up in LA and am having trouble ranking these three programs. Cedars seems to be the better hospital with tons of world class in-house fellowships, but it is a massive program and 40% of your time is at a VA hospital. Does anyone have any comments on these issues? Any current residents or people who know residents there?

Olive View was my favorite interview day... the PD and assistant PD seemed amazingly connected to the program and residents. It felt like you would get more support here than at a 50-person intern class program like Cedars. You are also a UCLA employee, and thus get paid like one (5k more per year than Harbor residents who are county employees), and you have access to UCLA research and do a couple of rotations there as well. However, the hospital is smaller and lacking some fellowships but they seem to match well elsewhere in CA.

Harbor is a more complete hospital compared to Olive View, with some very competitive in-house fellowships that like to take their own, but the hospital seemed more run down and the location is not ideal. It also seemed like residents worked really long hours here compared to some other places. The PD also seems amazing here... very down to earth and has a great sense of humor.. a lot of camraderie between residents.

Right now I am thinking of ranking like this:

1. Cedars
2. Olive View
3. Harbor

It is so hard to rank these places because they are all so different but nobody seems to be able to tell me where I will probably get better training and/or have a better experience. Any input at all on these three places would be greatly appreciated!

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[gutonc]

I can't comment on any of the programs specifically (because I can't imagine a city I'd like to be in less than LA). but I can comment on your concern about spending time at a VA.

The VA is where you will get to be the doctor. Your autonomy will be unparalleled, esp compared to a place like Cedars, which is known for private attendings, famous/entitled patients and lots of fellows which can sometimes get in the way of your learning. The VA is also where you'll get your bread and butter IM. CHF, COPD, bad DM2, ESLD, ESRD, late presenting cancers, etc.

If you otherwise loved Cedars, time at the VA should only move it up in your ranking, not down.

 

[vortexed]

To the OP: I'm mulling over the same decision as yourself. I have some other programs that I plan to rank between OV and Harbor, but I would rank those three programs the same way you did, Cedars > Olive View > Harbor.

In regards to Cedars, I actually prefer a larger resident class. It increases the chances that you can find people you click with and work well with, which I actually find preferable to the situation at smaller programs. This is certainly personal preference, though. You might very well prefer a cozier program, though I would consider OV and Harbor to both be mid-sized programs. I did a sub-I at Cedars, however, and got along fine with everyone I worked with. The PD at Cedars is very nice, and the hospital is amazing. In response to the second poster, as a resident there's virtually no chance you will be dealing with famous/entitled patients (aside from the ICU), and in fact your patients will mainly be of the underserved/county-ish variety, at least on the wards. You do hear rumors about famous patients being upstairs once in a while, but unless they're in the ICU, or you bump into them in the elevator, you won't be dealing with them yourself. I agree that the VA is the place for bread and butter medicine, and for more autonomy. I was actually concerned that perhaps everyone secretly hated the VA half of the program, but everyone I asked either loved it or was indifferent at worst. Oh, and location-wise Cedars can't be beat. The VA is in a pretty nice area too, near SM.

I agree with your assessment of OV and Harbor. The PD and aPDs at OV seem very involved, and I was incredibly impressed with the interview day - particularly how the program manager memorized all of our names and pictures, and how all of the program admin and chair of medicine came to meet us, at least on my day. Training at OV seemed very, very solid. Location-wise OV is in a pretty boring area but you can and most people live further south, closer to LA proper. I was less impressed with Harbor overall, but it is certainly a solid program. Me, personally, I didn't like the campus, with trailers all over the place, and I really don't like the concept of open ICUs, which Harbor has.

In regards to training I honestly think all three are fairly comparable. Olive View supposedly has "amazing teaching," but I haven't heard anything negative regarding Cedars and Harbor. OV and Harbor are county programs, so you will be working harder relative to Cedars. Cedars residents generally agree that "there is plenty of time to read," and that you hardly ever hit the duty hour limits, so if that's how you prefer to learn, perhaps that is a better choice for you. There is general agreement that Harbor residents work the longest hours out of the three programs, and have the most scut to deal with.

Here's an thread from a couple years ago addressing Cedars vs OV vs Harbor. Good luck!

 

[Inquisitive]

I am really hoping to end up in LA and am having trouble ranking these three programs. Cedars seems to be the better hospital with tons of world class in-house fellowships, but it is a massive program and 40% of your time is at a VA hospital. Does anyone have any comments on these issues? Any current residents or people who know residents there?

Olive View was my favorite interview day... the PD and assistant PD seemed amazingly connected to the program and residents. It felt like you would get more support here than at a 50-person intern class program like Cedars. You are also a UCLA employee, and thus get paid like one (5k more per year than Harbor residents who are county employees), and you have access to UCLA research and do a couple of rotations there as well. However, the hospital is smaller and lacking some fellowships but they seem to match well elsewhere in CA.

Harbor is a more complete hospital compared to Olive View, with some very competitive in-house fellowships that like to take their own, but the hospital seemed more run down and the location is not ideal. It also seemed like residents worked really long hours here compared to some other places. The PD also seems amazing here... very down to earth and has a great sense of humor.. a lot of camraderie between residents.

Right now I am thinking of ranking like this:

1. Cedars
2. Olive View
3. Harbor

It is so hard to rank these places because they are all so different but nobody seems to be able to tell me where I will probably get better training and/or have a better experience. Any input at all on these three places would be greatly appreciated!

I am a current Harbor resident and I am more than happy to answer any specific questions you have about Harbor. I am a little biased because I love Harbor but I went through the same dilemma last year. I also wanted to stay in the LA area and only ranked Southern California programs.

This is a very minor issue but I just wanted to clarify something. You don't get paid less at Harbor. The first year you get paid 2-3K less than Olive view but you get a $2000 stipend at the end of the year. You also get a $100 bonus every month if you speak Spanish. You get paid more as a PGY2 and PGY3 here compared to Olive view. I honestly don't think there is a huge difference between benefits.

Where you will get better training really depends on what type of program you are looking for and how you learn best. I know Harbor has a reputation for "working you hard" but I don't think that's true. I have never had to stay past noon post call, never been anywhere close to violating work hours or stayed in the hospital past 6pm on wards. I don't think you work any harder at Harbor than you would at other internships. Regarding "scut work", again I have never had to draw my own labs or blood cultures. Harbor has changed a lot in the past few years and is continuing to change. Unfortunately, once a program develops a reputation it takes a long time for it to change.

 

[vortexed]

I am a current Harbor resident and I am more than happy to answer any specific questions you have about Harbor. I am a little biased because I love Harbor but I went through the same dilemma last year. I also wanted to stay in the LA area and only ranked Southern California programs.

This is a very minor issue but I just wanted to clarify something. You don't get paid less at Harbor. The first year you get paid 2-3K less than Olive view but you get a $2000 stipend at the end of the year. You also get a $100 bonus every month if you speak Spanish. You get paid more as a PGY2 and PGY3 here compared to Olive view. I honestly don't think there is a huge difference between benefits.

Where you will get better training really depends on what type of program you are looking for and how you learn best. I know Harbor has a reputation for "working you hard" but I don't think that's true. I have never had to stay past noon post call, never been anywhere close to violating work hours or stayed in the hospital past 6pm on wards. I don't think you work any harder at Harbor than you would at other internships. Regarding "scut work", again I have never had to draw my own labs or blood cultures. Harbor has changed a lot in the past few years and is continuing to change. Unfortunately, once a program develops a reputation it takes a long time for it to change.

Thanks for these clarifications! I think of the three, Harbor has the rep for "not being in a good area." I actually don't have much of a problem with Torrance, but could you address the question of where residents live, and how things are in terms of nightlife/social life? Everyone says that you'll be so busy in internship/residency that locale isn't a primary factor, but I'm sure that depends on the person.

 

[halodoctor]

Thanks for these clarifications! I think of the three, Harbor has the rep for "not being in a good area." I actually don't have much of a problem with Torrance, but could you address the question of where residents live, and how things are in terms of nightlife/social life? Everyone says that you'll be so busy in internship/residency that locale isn't a primary factor, but I'm sure that depends on the person.

What's up SoCal-bound future MD's, I wanted to give some general advice for those making considerations between the different programs in this area.

1) Go where you fit best with the residents:

I cannot emphasize this point enough. Each of the these programs has its own feel to it and the best place for you is the place where you met residents that you naturally bonded with. That said, it is possible that you met amazing people from all these programs and even USC. That's when it would benefit you to look at the entire program and see if the residency has its own personality. I would say these programs all have unique personalities that you can use to pick where you want to be.

2) Go where they pay you the most:

No, just kidding...

3) Be realistic about what you want and what will be expected of you;

If you show up at Harbor and expect a Harbor schedule, you are going to LOVE it there. If you show up at Cedars and expect a Cedars schedule, you are going to LOVE Cedars. But if you show up at Cedars and you expect a Harbor schedule, or vice versa, you are going to be miserable. All these residency programs have world-class faculty, but if you are miserable, who cares?

4) If you are interested in fellowship, be smart about your decision:

Try to find out where your chances will be greatest for the specialty that you are interested in. That said, you can specialize in anything from all three of these programs. But you have to have a plan. If you are interested in GI, you may go to Cedars because of the big names there, or you may want to work with one of the innovators of EUS at Harbor, or you may want to be the surprise candidate from Olive View. All three of these routes will work, but you have to know which one you feel most comfortable with. The same is true for other specialties.

5) Try to make your decision based on a limited number of variables:

When you try to pick between programs, ask yourself what are the 1 or 2 most impotant things for you. That way, the program you choose will be the right one by shear inertia. All other details that you factor into your decision (I made 16 independent variables when I was selecting myself) will make your head spin so bad that you will end up with a huge headache and confusion. I mean, you could consider what food they serve, what the building looks like, how well the ancillary staff work, the quality of call rooms, the proximity to xyz, and a myriad of other factors, but really these are all distrations. It's like wasting your time throwing pebbles at goliath. Stop now, take out your big rock, and put all your effort where the money is.

Finally, I would like to disclose that I am from Harbor so if anyone has specific questions, I would be very happy to provide my opinion.

Good luck, this really is a tough decision, and those of us who have gone through it can totally relate!

 

[GastroGuy]

I'm new to this thread, but I thought I'd ask a semi-related question: how does Cedars compare to UC-Irvine and UC-Davis? I want to do GI in the future, so I'm leaning towards Cedars for its better reputation in matching their residents into GI fellowships nationally (and not just SoCal). With that being said, I really enjoyed my interview days at UCI and UCD. I liked the smaller sizes of these 2 programs (~20 categoricals/year vs. 40 at Cedars), and it seemed like the residents got more personal attention because of that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? (i.e. does Cedars' better reputation for GI trump the possibility of being happier in a smaller program like UCI or UCD?)

 

[gutonc]

I'm new to this thread, but I thought I'd ask a semi-related question: how does Cedars compare to UC-Irvine and UC-Davis? I want to do GI in the future, so I'm leaning towards Cedars for its better reputation in matching their residents into GI fellowships nationally (and not just SoCal). With that being said, I really enjoyed my interview days at UCI and UCD. I liked the smaller sizes of these 2 programs (~20 categoricals/year vs. 40 at Cedars), and it seemed like the residents got more personal attention because of that. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? (i.e. does Cedars' better reputation for GI trump the possibility of being happier in a smaller program like UCI or UCD?)

I'm going to chime in again with a general comment, completely unrelated to Cali programs. From the outside looking in, these 3 programs are pretty close in reputation, (Cedars>=UCD>=UCI IMHO but the difference is minimal and others will disagree).

When choosing between roughly equal programs, I think that happiness/fit/gut feeling is hugely important. If you're miserable, it doesn't matter where you are as you won't be successful. If you're happy, you can make just about any program work for you.

 

[Inquisitive]

Thanks for these clarifications! I think of the three, Harbor has the rep for "not being in a good area." I actually don't have much of a problem with Torrance, but could you address the question of where residents live, and how things are in terms of nightlife/social life? Everyone says that you'll be so busy in internship/residency that locale isn't a primary factor, but I'm sure that depends on the person.

The immediate area around Harbor isn't the nicest but if you go 1-2 miles west of the hospital you start hitting the nice part of Torrance, Redondo beach, Hermosa beach, Manhattan beach. Long beach is about 5-10 miles away and West LA is 10 miles away too. That said you never feel unsafe around the hospital even leaving late at night. There are really nice condos and apartments right across the hospital where several of our residents live. Many of us live in west Torrance where there is plenty of shopping, restaurants and lounges. Some of us live in Redondo or Hermosa beach. You will never run out of places to hang out. We all hang out every week atleast once and never run out of places to go. You will have more time to have fun in residency than you think. I really thought I was not going to have any time to have fun during my intern year but I do have plenty of time to do things I love and hang out with my friends and family.

 

[tarlovcyst]

I am really hoping to end up in LA and am having trouble ranking these three programs. Cedars seems to be the better hospital with tons of world class in-house fellowships, but it is a massive program and 40% of your time is at a VA hospital. Does anyone have any comments on these issues? Any current residents or people who know residents there?

Olive View was my favorite interview day... the PD and assistant PD seemed amazingly connected to the program and residents. It felt like you would get more support here than at a 50-person intern class program like Cedars. You are also a UCLA employee, and thus get paid like one (5k more per year than Harbor residents who are county employees), and you have access to UCLA research and do a couple of rotations there as well. However, the hospital is smaller and lacking some fellowships but they seem to match well elsewhere in CA.

Harbor is a more complete hospital compared to Olive View, with some very competitive in-house fellowships that like to take their own, but the hospital seemed more run down and the location is not ideal. It also seemed like residents worked really long hours here compared to some other places. The PD also seems amazing here... very down to earth and has a great sense of humor.. a lot of camraderie between residents.

Right now I am thinking of ranking like this:

1. Cedars
2. Olive View
3. Harbor

It is so hard to rank these places because they are all so different but nobody seems to be able to tell me where I will probably get better training and/or have a better experience. Any input at all on these three places would be greatly appreciated!

Your rank list is correct. Cedars is a great place to train. Very large residency program and great hospital too. Their fellowship match list is all-star, if that is what you want to do.

Olive View and Harbor are just smaller hospitals. Olive View only has IM and a combined IM/EM program for residency. It is smaller than Harbor, but in my opinion, the atmosphere is better.

Cedars, then OV, then Harbor

Thanks for the thread.

 

[California]

I really think it is a mistake to think that Cedars is the best program of the three. Actually, Harbor-UCLA is BY FAR the best. This is because you need to go to a residency program where you will *see* everything and have autonomy throughout the entire 3 years.

One person has mentioned that you get autonomy at the VA portion of the Cedars Program. However, YOU get AUTONOMY throughout all 3 years.

 

[DrDoolittle99]

As a clarification...In terms of fellowships, Harbor had a 100% match rate in cardiology last year while Cedars did NOT. Also, Harbor had a 100% match rate in GI, but don't know the statistics at Cedars. While certain Cedars residents may match at good fellowships, you have to consider that you could be that resident that goes unmatched as you are one of MANY at Cedars. Whereas at Harbor, you are one of a smaller number of residents that ALL of the faculty will get to know well. The faculty, program director and the chief of medicine will all know you well within a couple of months of being here. You will never have trouble getting a letter of recommendation. Also, Harbor residents are known well to fellowship programs as being very well trained.

In terms of location, you can't find a better place than the surrounding area of Harbor. In my opinion (although biased), nothing can compete with the beach areas (Redondo Beach, Hermosa Beach and Manhattan Beach)...even Beverly Hills. There is better weather as well as traffic. There are plenty of local places to go out to and as residents we definitely have time to go out. Also, I have never felt unsafe in the hospital and the surrounding area.

In terms of pay, our salary over the three years are comparable to Olive-View. We get paid more our third year and also get a bonus at the end of our intern year.

Comparing Harbor to Olive-View, you have to consider that Olive-View does not have all of the subspecialties - such as CT surgery, neurosurgery and orthopedic surgery. These patients actually get referred to Harbor for further care. While this may not seem like a big deal, it does affect your training in pre-operative medicine.

I hope this helps anyone trying to decide on a program and wish you all the best in the match!

 

[Scaredshizzles]

I really think it is a mistake to think that Cedars is the best program of the three. Actually, Harbor-UCLA is BY FAR the best. This is because you need to go to a residency program where you will *see* everything and have autonomy throughout the entire 3 years.

One person has mentioned that you get autonomy at the VA portion of the Cedars Program. However, YOU get AUTONOMY throughout all 3 years.

Obviously you need autonomy to some extent, but people take this autonomy thing waay too far imho. Don't forget these are real people who you are taking care of, not lab rats....Not everything in life needs to be learned through trial and error nor is everything learned best through trial and error. Obviously things like procedures do require a fair amount of freedom to try and err...But a lot of other stuff CAN be learned well just from following orders and doing things the way someone more experienced than you suggests it be done...if you keep an open mind and interest, you CAN learn that way. On the other hand, if you lose interest and ownership over the patient just because you personally are not the one completely in control, then you obviously won't learn much.

 

[halodoctor]

Obviously you need autonomy to some extent, but people take this autonomy thing waay too far imho. Don't forget these are real people who you are taking care of, not lab rats....Not everything in life needs to be learned through trial and error nor is everything learned best through trial and error. Obviously things like procedures do require a fair amount of freedom to try and err...But a lot of other stuff CAN be learned well just from following orders and doing things the way someone more experienced than you suggests it be done...if you keep an open mind and interest, you CAN learn that way. On the other hand, if you lose interest and ownership over the patient just because you personally are not the one completely in control, then you obviously won't learn much.

You can learn a lot from supervised management, as is true of any residency program. However, three years later, you better pray that you have learned everything there is out there, second-hand, or else you are going to get a case of the old "shaking knees" when it comes to patient care without attending support.

This is probably one of the top reasons that Harbor residents end up choosing this place as there is a "no fear" mentality. By the end of your intern year, you feel more equipped than some senior residents you met on interview trails or rotations at nearby programs. It's not about how smart you are at this point, it's about whether you have been trained to feel comfortable making bigtime decisions on a daily basis. Through our residency structure, we develop instincts, habits, and styles that are critically important when moving on to the next stages of our careers.

I'd just like to emphasize that it's not all about knowledge, it's about how you use it, and that is a strength for Harbor.

 

[halodoctor]

bump, there are a few new so-cal posters..
.

there should be a way to categorize this thread by regions...