Challenge a grade?

[Paws]

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I was wondering about the wisdome of challenging a grade. Not like an exam grade done with bubble sheets but a subjective grade where someone evaluated you for a standardized patient kind of setting. The reason I ask is that I did well in my course, but the final exam was graded by someone I knew - and knew from a very negative experience. He basically gave me a very low, failing grade. Even tho I had done a really excellent job with my course preceptor.

So, the question becomes did this person fail me because he is still p*ssed at me? I had been doing excellently previous to his evaluation. Did I suddenly become a complete idiot when he was in the room? Our interviews are videotaped so they can be reviewed and rescored as necessary.

I asked politely about my grade to the administrator and she said they would be willing to review the video and revise the score if they felt I had in fact done better. Ok, but what's the deal with medical school. Are we never supposed to challenge these things? are we supposed to take unfair things and just ignore it? I want to speak up but I also don't want to be punished for speaking up. So I wondered what others might do, or have done in this situation. It sort of sucks, I think ... 🙁

 

[Law2Doc]

I was wondering about the wisdome of challenging a grade. Not like an exam grade done with bubble sheets but a subjective grade where someone evaluated you for a standardized patient kind of setting. The reason I ask is that I did well in my course, but the final exam was graded by someone I knew - and knew from a very negative experience. He basically gave me a very low, failing grade. Even tho I had done a really excellent job with my course preceptor.

So, the question becomes did this person fail me because he is still p*ssed at me? I had been doing excellently previous to his evaluation. Did I suddenly become a complete idiot when he was in the room? Our interviews are videotaped so they can be reviewed and rescored as necessary.

I asked politely about my grade to the administrator and she said they would be willing to review the video and revise the score if they felt I had in fact done better. Ok, but what's the deal with medical school. Are we never supposed to challenge these things? are we supposed to take unfair things and just ignore it? I want to speak up but I also don't want to be punished for speaking up. So, I wondered what others might or have, done in this situation. It sort of sucks, I think ... 🙁

You've done all you can do -- you have to shrug it off and move on. If you push the issue, or take it to a higher level you will forever be labeled a whiner. In fact, you probably really should have only brought it up nicely to the person doing the evaluation, and not the administrator, but given that you already did that, you have to just go with whatever result you get. There will be subjective evaluation throughout your career, and you just have to deal with it, and learn how to garner the good subjective evaluations. Sorry to be blunt.

 

[Pythagoras]

You've done all you can do -- you have to shrug it off and move on. If you push the issue, or take it to a higher level you will forever be labeled a whiner. In fact, you probably really should have only brought it up nicely to the person doing the evaluation, and not the administrator, but given that you already did that, you have to just go with whatever result you get. There will be subjective evaluation throughout your career, and you just have to deal with it, and learn how to garner the good subjective evaluations. Sorry to be blunt.

What the hell is wrong with her getting them to review the tape? I sure would. Who gives a damn who you bring it up to. If you feel you did better than the grade says, then have the review it. What is the worst that can happen? You get the same grade as you got before.

 

[Law2Doc]

What the hell is wrong with her getting them to review the tape? I sure would. Who gives a damn who you bring it up to. If you feel you did better than the grade says, then have the review it. What is the worst that can happen? You get the same grade as you got before.

If you are talking about it being a one shot deal, that's true, but you will be dealing with folks subjectively evaluating you at the same school for quite a while, and you don't want the rep of someone who asks for a "recount" every time things don't shake out the way you want. Your rep is more important than one single eval usually. But I'm just giving my opinion, so feel free to disagree.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

But if this is at the end of the course, will these same evaluators evaluate you ever again and will they really tell other future evaluators of your work that you asked for a grade review? It doesn't seem that likely, but what do I know.

 

[synapse lapse]

I disagree with law2doc, you feel you did a better job and that personal history interfered with your graders objectivity then ask them to regrade from the tapes. If the administrators don't change the grade then drop it. Nothing wrong whatsoever with fighting for a grade you deserve. I don't think one complaint labels anyone as a whiner.

 

[stoic]

You've done all you can do -- you have to shrug it off and move on. If you push the issue, or take it to a higher level you will forever be labeled a whiner. In fact, you probably really should have only brought it up nicely to the person doing the evaluation, and not the administrator, but given that you already did that, you have to just go with whatever result you get. There will be subjective evaluation throughout your career, and you just have to deal with it, and learn how to garner the good subjective evaluations. Sorry to be blunt.

it doesn't appear that she's done ANYTHING as of yet.

you have the right to have your encounter re-evaluated by the course director - that's one of the reason they video tape standardized patient interactions.

if you approach the situation honestly, then i don't think you're going to have any problems. acknowledge the fact that perhaps you did poorly for some reason, but also express your concern about the fact that the person who graded you has had a negative interaction with you in the past. the course director should have no problem pointing out what you did to deserve a failing grade so that you can improve upon it... they should also have to problem make changes if there were other motives for giving you the grade you received.

the only way this would reflect poorly on you is if you already have a history of being "whiney" about grades or if you refused to let the issue drop after the decision has been reevaluated. in subjectively graded material, you always have a right to know what you did that was "wrong." always.

 

[Medical123]

I agree with the others who said that you should bring the situation up with the course director, telling him/her that you have some concerns about your grade due to the fact that you had problems with the evaluator in the past. I would also express concern that perhaps I didn't do as well as I thought and that I would really like someone to go over the video with me to point out areas for improvement. That way, you are more likely to come across as a concerned student who wants to do better rather than a whiner.

 

[Law2Doc]

But if this is at the end of the course, will these same evaluators evaluate you ever again and will they really tell other future evaluators of your work that you asked for a grade review? It doesn't seem that likely, but what do I know.

It's not an issue of the "same evaluators" it's an issue of the "same institution". Word travels fast. Totally depends on how carefully and how far you push it. But I still think err on the side of saving your rep, because subjective grading is just that, subjective -- you aren't always going to agree but only the grader's opinion counts.

 

[lil pook]

paws-

you tell those sorry people at your school that you want another person to review your performance. i mean...this is bull****!!!! they failed you!!! this IS a big deal. and no you will not be considered a whiner!! don't listen to anybody that tells you that! not standing up for yourself is part of the reason why so many of us students get abused in 3rd year.


well let me tell you something, i refuse to be one of those people that gets trampled on...and if that means opening my mouth and defending myself than so be it. we need to change the way this process is for future students...and it starts with us.

think about how bad it was 20-30 years ago. think about all the harrassment that women went through. does that happen anymore to the same degree? NO!!!! and why? because some brave people got sick of being treated like crap and didn't care if they were labelled whiners..they stuck up for themselves.....and you should too!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Paws]

Hi guys,

I am glad to hear the support here as I was sort of on the fence about "do I or don't I?" I don't mean to be a whiner and I tried to phrase it as I meant it, which was that I was concerned that I had received such a low grade and wanted to learn what I had done so very wrong to get that grade. It seems to me, if you fail an exam, you should want to go back and learn why. In this case I think I know why, but professionally speaking I tried to couch it in reasonable terms. I want it to be a positive learning experience, that kind of thing.

I agree with lilPook. I also agree with Law2Doc. It's so hard to know what to do tho. The thing that bothers me is that it is unfair, and I wonder what sort of person is this who would blast a student just because he can. It's malicious and unfair.

But like Law2 says, alot of life can be like this, and you have to figure out for yourself how much you want to fight and how much are you willing to let go. I have no idea if I will ever see this person again. I didn't think I would, except there he was in the interview room with me and I was stuck. There goes my grade, I thought. This person even had the nerve to say to me afterwards that I had done a really excellent job, tremendously well done. ?????

I don't know what I will do, still thinking. I also thought I might ask the course directors honestly, what they recommend for students in this situation as I just don't know. Do they recommend being silent or what? I would appreciate hearing what their experiences have been. I honestly struggle with these issues and so do some of my friends. We don't know what to do and we are sort of scared about third year. As for what LilPook says, it's true. We have come a long way and we didn't do it by sitting back and taking crazy stuff thrown at us. But, it is so tricky.

Honestly, I just want to get through in one piece and get my degree and move on.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Hi guys,

I am glad to hear the support here as I was sort of on the fence about "do I or don't I?" I don't mean to be a whiner and I tried to phrase it as I meant it, which was that I was concerned that I had received such a low grade and wanted to learn what I had done so very wrong to get that grade. It seems to me, if you fail an exam, you should want to go back and learn why. In this case I think I know why, but professionally speaking I tried to couch it in reasonable terms. I want it to be a positive learning experience, that kind of thing.

I agree with lilPook. I also agree with Law2Doc. It's so hard to know what to do tho. The thing that bothers me is that it is unfair, and I wonder what sort of person is this who would blast a student just because he can. It's malicious and unfair.

But like Law2 says, alot of life can be like this, and you have to figure out for yourself how much you want to fight and how much are you willing to let go. I have no idea if I will ever see this person again. I didn't think I would, except there he was in the interview room with me and I was stuck. There goes my grade, I thought. This person even had the nerve to say to me afterwards that I had done a really excellent job, tremendously well done. ?????

I don't know what I will do, still thinking. I also thought I might ask the course directors honestly, what they recommend for students in this situation as I just don't know. Do they recommend being silent or what? I would appreciate hearing what their experiences have been. I honestly struggle with these issues and so do some of my friends. We don't know what to do and we are sort of scared about third year. As for what LilPook says, it's true. We have come a long way and we didn't do it by sitting back and taking crazy stuff thrown at us. But, it is so tricky.

Honestly, I just want to get through in one piece and get my degree and move on.

Hi there Paws,

If you truly believe you were graded unfairly speak up. True, people get trampled on in life; but those who can speak up should and sometimes it and makes a difference. Why should someone who had something against you in the past be allowed to unfairly grade you due to an unrelated grudge? he/she should not be allowed to get away with it,]. Furthermore tha tperson shpould be reprimanded for such an act. I rarely comment on my grades but there is no way I'd accept a failing grade that i didn't deserve. I don't think an administrator should expect any less than for you to ask for a re-evaluation. Good luck.

 

[stoic]

another thing that would weigh heavily on what i'd do if it were me is how much this failing grade affected you academically. if it barely dented your course grade then i'd be much more likely to just forget about it and file it under "stupid subjective stuff that happens in med school for no good reason" (i'm finding that this will likely be a VERY large file by the time graduation rolls around).

on the other hand, if this lowered you from a high pass to pass or pass to low pass or something like that, then i'd almost certainly take it up with the course director.

of course, all this is + or - playing a nasty prank on the jackass who screwed you.

let us know what ends up happening. we're bored and nosey. at least i am.

 

[jennyboo]

There's a video of it. At my school, ALL students who fail an OSCE or other videotaped encounter get their video reviewed to make sure the grading was fair. Don't waste any more time trying to decide whether to let it go or fight it. GET IT REVIEWED. If they think it's fair that you failed, fine. If they don't, then you go from a failing grade to a pass. You have nothing to lose. End of story.

By the way, I failed two of these early in med school. I did not get them reviewed. In retrospect, when I discussed these with a couple of peers I believe I probably should have been more aggressive about requesting reviews. But for some reason, even though these appeared as "remedial exams" on my transcript, I did not have any trouble with the residency match at all -- they either ignored it or didn't ask about it.

 

[argonana]

I just wanted to chime in because I read Law2Doc's post awhile ago, and it's really bothered me.

There is such a huge difference between whining/grade grubbing and standing up for oneself. I've never challenged a grade, but in this case, I'm nearly certain I would--regardless of the potential consequences.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just wanted to chime in because I read Law2Doc's post awhile ago, and it's really bothered me.

There is such a huge difference between whining/grade grubbing and standing up for oneself. I've never challenged a grade, but in this case, I'm nearly certain I would--regardless of the potential consequences.

There's a big difference between challenging an objective grade and challenging a subjective evaluation. With the objective grade mistakes can be made, you can tell, and you can nicely point that out. With something subjective you are trying to tell someone their opinion is wrong, and there is no way you can prove that -- if they didn't think it merited a better grade, by definition of subjective, it didnt. The latter part of med school, and the rest of life actually is driven by such subjective evaluation, so it's more important to figure out how to get people to think highly of you than to get this one grade changed. Complaining about one's subjective view is not going to help, and can tarnish your rep. And going over people's head is rarely met with positive regard. Again, this is only my opinion, but with some experience in the subjective eval world from a prior career.

 

[Paws]

Law2,

I do agree with you and I absolutely believe that people are happy to label someone a 'whiner' even when it's not necessarily true. I really am on your side about that. This is why I feel so confused. Life is often not fair and there are a million mean people out there. I try and just stay away from them and if I have to deal with them, well, sometimes I get mud on me. This grade is not the end of the world and I should survive just fine if I never do anything about it.

I think, that this whole crazy pool of subjective grading is sort of scary especially when it comes down to situations like this. Alot of my upper class friends tell me, drop it and move on. Don't make a big deal out of it or it will come back to haunt you. That is my fear.

🙁

 

[stoic]

if it affected your grade a great deal you have every right to ask what you did wrong. you'll either find out you suck at something or they'll find out someone screwed you when the tape is reviewed.

I'm sick of all the "becareful of stepping on toes crap." looks, it does look bad if you're always whining or if you're trying to go over someone's head to get things to go your way when you actually deserve a crappy grade. BUT it also looks bad if you're getting **** on and you just sit there and take it. If you're getting screwed and it matters to your grades, get some balls and stand up for yourself. Have the video reviewed. That's what they keep the video's for. There's nothing whiny about that. Whiny is "but i'm really close to a high pass... PLEASE bump me." I also have some experience in the "subjective world," and believe me there is a difference between a student who honestly is confused about a grade or wants to know what they did wrong and a student who is just bugging your to give them better grades when they don't deserve it.

"I'm concerned about this grade, I thought I was better at this exam and don't understand why I scored so low... could you go over it with me" IS NOT WHINEY.

The lady who runs the clinical skills lab at my school can be a total bitch and there are several people in my class who have had to go over her head to get some ridiculous, subjective crap fixed. For instance, arbitrarily changing due dates to BEFORE the listed time in the sylabus and not sending out a class email. And guess what? The course director knows the skills lab lady is a bitch and just fixes the problem.

It's generally not a secret if someones a jerk. So if you're realistic about the situation and the other person is known to be an ass, it's not a big deal if you just ask to have the tape looked at.

Again, this all hinges on how much this situation matters to your final grade. If it doesn't end up mattering, then yes, it would be whiney to worry about it. If it does matter to your final grade, then you're be CRAZY not to have the tape reviewed.

Ok?