Chance of being forgiven $450K in student loans with IBR?

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Magyarzorag

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Are federal loans grandfathered in? I plan on borrowing $350K, in loans, and I calculated that if I start IBR during residency, maybe take a year off to do MSF, and work as a physician at a hospital that gives 8 weeks PTO a year (I'll be willing to take a lower salary or work in a public university hospital. Lifestyle>>Salary), I will probably still OWE the government $450K. I will only owe $100K of taxes on the $450K, which I plan on either saving up for over 25 years or maybe working with the IRS to do another payment plan. My main worry is if a new law is passed between the time I borrow and 20 years (a lot can change), and I still owe the entire $450K.

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Are federal loans grandfathered in? I plan on borrowing $350K, in loans, and I calculated that if I start IBR during residency, maybe take a year off to do MSF, and work as a physician at a hospital that gives 8 weeks PTO a year (I'll be willing to take a lower salary or work in a public university hospital. Lifestyle>>Salary), I will probably still OWE the government $450K. I will only owe $100K of taxes on the $450K, which I plan on either saving up for over 25 years or maybe working with the IRS to do another payment plan. My main worry is if a new law is passed between the time I borrow and 20 years (a lot can change), and I still owe the entire $450K. (For this reason, I will be engaging in aggressive asset protection, including keeping money in foreign trusts, buying foreign property.

Some people may criticize me for trying to be forgiven so much out on taxpayer backs. But I feel like its completely fair. As a physician, I would be contributing at least $30000 more a year in taxes to the government than the average wage earner, already adding up to $450000 in 15 years. In addition, I would have paid back all of what I have borrowed in principle + interest, just at a 1% interest rate instead of 7%

There are many ways to pay off student loans. Some say attack as tough as possible, others want to use the repayment options. PSLF has been a blunder in terms of forgiveness, and as IBR first took effect in 2014, no one will know how that forgiveness will turn out until 2034.

That being said, the answer you are looking for may be different based on your final choices. If you are making $800,000 a year in Wyoming as an orthopedic surgeon then I may have a different suggestion than if you are doing IM in NY. I'm personally not ciritizing, but I'm wondering why you would want to live with that debt over your head for 20 years if you had the chance to repay it and move on instead.
 
Im hoping for the same thing with a similar amount but seeing as few people are ever approved for PSLF.. not holding my breath.

Gonna set aside money for the tax killer that is PAYE forgiveness.
 
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There’s a lot of personal goals I want to accomplish when I’m young. I’ll let 55 year old me handle the tax bomb once I’m already 25 years into my career. The total amount of money paid is similar anyway.
 
I'd say the chance of govt loan forgiveness is slim for physicians. The govt wants paid. Look at the irresponsible way states legalized cannabis. No laws for DUI with cannibis or surgeon general surgeon advice prior to legalization. They wanted the money. I dont see a difference here. Pay off the debt early and save yourself a boatload of money.
 
I'm not paying off mine faster because basically you get taxed at 35% for each additional dollar you make as a doctor over $200000, which many of us do. If I bust my but off to try to pay the loans, that is like paying a 35% interest rate. I think 7% sounds better than 35%. I
 
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I'm not paying off mine faster because basically you get taxed at 35% for each additional dollar you make as a doctor over $200000, which many of us do. If I bust my but off to try to pay the loans, that is like paying a 35% interest rate. I think 7% sounds better than 35%. I
Didnt see what you posted before editing, but you still pay off that 7% loan with after tax money. The savings lie in the 10 yrs of interest you save if you pay back 10 yrs early.
 
I'm not paying off mine faster because basically you get taxed at 35% for each additional dollar you make as a doctor over $200000, which many of us do. If I bust my but off to try to pay the loans, that is like paying a 35% interest rate. I think 7% sounds better than 35%. I
That’s not how that works... you do you though.
 
I don’t think people realize it’s written explicitly in the loan agreement that loans will be forgiven under REPAYE or IBR after 20-25 years. The caveat is that you have to pay taxes on the forgiven loans. Even with Trump president, the government can’t just randomly break contracts. Note this is different from PSLF, which is still up in the air. Anyway, I’m not sure why people are calling this “risky.” It’s just a different strategy, that’s all.
 
That’s not how that works... you do you though.

Say I decide to take extra shifts or patients to make more money. I make an extra $50000 and contribute that to the loan. However, the extra $50000 is only $32000 after tax. Basically, if I'm paying $50000 to get my loan reduced by $32000, which is like paying a 56% interest rate.
 
Say I decide to take extra shifts or patients to make more money. I make an extra $50000 and contribute that to the loan. However, the extra $50000 is only $32000 after tax. Basically, if I'm paying $50000 to get my loan reduced by $32000, which is like paying a 56% interest rate.
Your math and logic are so bad I won’t even argue with you. Good luck, hope it works out for you.
 
I don’t think people realize it’s written explicitly in the loan agreement that loans will be forgiven under REPAYE or IBR after 20-25 years. The caveat is that you have to pay taxes on the forgiven loans. Even with Trump president, the government can’t just randomly break contracts. Note this is different from PSLF, which is still up in the air. Anyway, I’m not sure why people are calling this “risky.” It’s just a different strategy, that’s all.

Which is why im taking that route and setting aside money as i go along to pay those taxes.
 
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Not having to worry about loans >>>> whatever small money you’ll save with these risky maneuvers.

I paid mine off fast and couldn’t be happier.

How fast? How much of your after tax income did you put toward it during residency and as an attending?
 
Say I decide to take extra shifts or patients to make more money. I make an extra $50000 and contribute that to the loan. However, the extra $50000 is only $32000 after tax. Basically, if I'm paying $50000 to get my loan reduced by $32000, which is like paying a 56% interest rate.
Average tax rate and marginal tax rate are two different things. While you have a higher marginal tax rate for income over $200k, your average tax rate on all income earned only goes up by 2-3%. Your logic implies that you weren’t paying any taxes before $200k so it suddenly jumps to 35%. Any dollar amount above $9k and you’re paying 10% in taxes.

Also, you totally neglect deductions that adjust your MAGI so even if your salary is >$200k your taxable income likely isn’t. I would suggest when you’re an attending working 1-2 extra shifts so you can hire yourself a CFP.
 
About 3.75 years after residency. If you look at the amount I paid total divided by 3.75 years it came to just about 50% of my take home income.

Bravo. That's impressive. I really hope to replicate
 
Not making money to avoid paying taxes is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Yes, people that make more money, pay more in taxes. We live in the USA. I pay more in taxes at 330k than 220k, than when we made $45k. It’s still better to make the $330k. I’m sure I’d rather make $1M. Yeah, I’d pay more in taxes, but not a sane person here would say that it isn’t better to make more.

Paying minimum payments on loans for 20-25 years to pay the IRS a 65% discount (assuming tax rates are the same) in a lump sum . . . . Yeah. Doesn’t sound like fun to me.

I didn’t have as much loans as average, but I was happy to pay them off early.

PS: maybe shouldn’t suggest this to OP, but married filing jointly are 24% till $320k this past year. I think my effective tax rate was closer to 18% last year between all the deductions. HSA, 457, 403b, cafeteria plans, pre-tax insurance premiums. Heck I didn’t minimize my AGI as much as I could. My take home rate is somewhere around 60%,

PSS: No one knows what our incomes will be 5 years from now. Lots of people believe the sky is falling. Not me, but a few political changes could make drastic reductions in physician incomes. Make hay while the sun shines.
 
PSS: No one knows what our incomes will be 5 years from now. Lots of people believe the sky is falling. Not me, but a few political changes could make drastic reductions in physician incomes. Make hay while the sun shines.

Imagine graduating residency, paying off loans for the next 4 years while still living like a resident, then your salary drops to 100k because of Medicare for All or a new executive order. Hahahahaha
 
Lots better to have paid the student loans off than be stuck with 100k in income and $400k in debt. Then you’ll realize how much risk there is with so much student loan debt. You have the risk with the loans now, you just have the huge upside of a physician income. The truth is large student loans will direct life choices is significant ways. I feel people make better career and personal decisions with student loans paid off. (They will be happier and make more money).
 
The economics and logistics of aiming for loan forgiveness at the end of the IBR term are significantly different than those of aiming for public service loan forgiveness. As a physician, if you do your residency at a qualifying place, you're only going to be carrying this debt for a handful of years before qualifying for PSLF. This means that people can usually work a variety of normal jobs with normal salaries while still qualifying for significant forgiveness at the end of it. The forgiveness is also not taxed. For most people who are working at qualifying places anyway, I would say that it makes sense to go for it. My plan is to try to save extra money in index funds outside of a retirement account (once I have sufficient attending salary to do so), so that I can use to help pay off the loans should something happen to PSLF. If the loans are forgiven, I could do a variety of things with that money, including put it towards a home.

The idea of waiting out the entire term of the IBR plan seems silly to me. I can't imagine this making much sense for a physician unless you are working a job where your salary is extremely low. If you're really interested in the true public service type jobs and that's why you anticipate poor pay, I think there are options that don't leave you in such a terrible position. Some of those types of jobs actually themselves offer some forms of loan payment options.

Based on my calculations, it seems like you're aiming for a job paying $75-80K/year or so in order to add up to $450K worth of forgiveness. I get that people have lifestyle goals but I really struggle to understand why a physician would work a job that pays this little. You could have a very cushy job and make much more than this.
 
Well, another way of thinking about it is that I have a 10% chance of dying in the next 25 years once I graduate from residency. So that’s a 10% chance of never having to pay back my loans or taxes under IBR.
 
About 3.75 years after residency. If you look at the amount I paid total divided by 3.75 years it came to just about 50% of my take home income.

Wow that's great, I too hope to replicate.
 
The economics and logistics of aiming for loan forgiveness at the end of the IBR term are significantly different than those of aiming for public service loan forgiveness. As a physician, if you do your residency at a qualifying place, you're only going to be carrying this debt for a handful of years before qualifying for PSLF. This means that people can usually work a variety of normal jobs with normal salaries while still qualifying for significant forgiveness at the end of it. The forgiveness is also not taxed. For most people who are working at qualifying places anyway, I would say that it makes sense to go for it. My plan is to try to save extra money in index funds outside of a retirement account (once I have sufficient attending salary to do so), so that I can use to help pay off the loans should something happen to PSLF. If the loans are forgiven, I could do a variety of things with that money, including put it towards a home.

The idea of waiting out the entire term of the IBR plan seems silly to me. I can't imagine this making much sense for a physician unless you are working a job where your salary is extremely low. If you're really interested in the true public service type jobs and that's why you anticipate poor pay, I think there are options that don't leave you in such a terrible position. Some of those types of jobs actually themselves offer some forms of loan payment options.

Based on my calculations, it seems like you're aiming for a job paying $75-80K/year or so in order to add up to $450K worth of forgiveness. I get that people have lifestyle goals but I really struggle to understand why a physician would work a job that pays this little. You could have a very cushy job and make much more than this.


I'm aiming for working part time (or maybe in psych) and making $200K before taxes. After a $23K IRA/HSA contribution, my AGI will be $177K. After federal taxes of $34000 and FICA taxes of $10000, my actual income is $133K. Then do a cost of living deduction of $18K, and my payment will be based on 10% of $115K, or $11.5K/year for 15 years+$3k a year or 4 years of residency+0k for the preliminary year.. Thus, I would have paid only $184K for a $350K loan, which would have ballooned to $700K with interest, so $500K will be forgiven. I will owe $115 in taxes K on the forgiven amount, thus, paying a total of $300K for a $350K initial loan. Even if I make $300K a year and do the same deductions, I will have taxable income of $277K. After $68K in taxes, $10K in FICA and a $18K lifestyle deduction my gross will be $182K. $18K*15+$4K*4+0=$286K. I will owe income on the $414K that was forgiven, which is $79K in taxes. Paying $365K on a $350K loan over 25 years amounts to an interest rate of about a 0.3% APR interest rate.

I also have about $200K in savings through job, scholarships, grants, and an inheritance, but I could just invest the extra cash I take out through loans in a 3% government bonds or a 7% stock market and come out better. Read Rich dad poor dad not Dave Ramsey. Debt isn't all bad.
 
I'm aiming for working part time (or maybe in psych) and making $200K before taxes. After a $23K IRA/HSA contribution, my AGI will be $177K. After federal taxes of $34000 and FICA taxes of $10000, my actual income is $133K. Then do a cost of living deduction of $18K, and my payment will be based on 10% of $115K, or $11.5K/year for 15 years+$3k a year or 4 years of residency+0k for the preliminary year.. Thus, I would have paid only $184K for a $350K loan, which would have ballooned to $700K with interest, so $500K will be forgiven. I will owe $115 in taxes K on the forgiven amount, thus, paying a total of $300K for a $350K initial loan. Even if I make $300K a year and do the same deductions, I will have taxable income of $277K. After $68K in taxes, $10K in FICA and a $18K lifestyle deduction my gross will be $182K. $18K*15+$4K*4+0=$286K. I will owe income on the $414K that was forgiven, which is $79K in taxes. Paying $365K on a $350K loan over 25 years amounts to an interest rate of about a 0.3% APR interest rate.

I also have about $200K in savings through job, scholarships, grants, and an inheritance, but I could just invest the extra cash I take out through loans in a 3% government bonds or a 7% stock market and come out better. Read Rich dad poor dad not Dave Ramsey. Debt isn't all bad.

Just a quick note, The 10% payment for IBR/REPAYE is based on AGI not post-tax income. So with a salary of $300k, it's more like $29k a year not $18k
 
Taxes on 500k is currently going to be like 175k. Who knows what tax brackets will be in 25 years. No one can predict the future, but based on the populist politics currently ongoing, I doubt it will be lower.

You are also gambling that Congress will still forgive your loan in 25 years. They make the laws, they can change them. Back to the above point, no one on Facebook is going to care if you get screwed in this.

I feel that this is playing with snakes that can royally mess with your life and future. Large amounts of debt is a big liability.
 
Student loan debt is a real problem, but it shouldn’t be a problem for a professional that can expect to earn 4x the average family income in the us at the low end of the pay scale.
When the time comes to forgive these billions and billions in debt, with trillions of US debt continuing to spiral out of control, I wouldn’t expect that very high income earners will benefit from this program. It’s hard to argue that a 1 or 2 percenter couldn’t have simply paid off the debt. I expect that it will be, appropriately, phased out by income as many other federal tax programs are.
I wouldn’t put my money on that scheme.
As an aside, call me old school but if you take out a loan, you should plan to pay it off. You could argue about if a elementary school teacher in Alabama that went to Stanford should have to pay back $200k of student debt, but she probably wouldn’t have near that much in loans, and an attending physician isn’t an elementary school teacher.
 
Student loan debt is a real problem, but it shouldn’t be a problem for a professional that can expect to earn 4x the average family income in the us at the low end of the pay scale.
When the time comes to forgive these billions and billions in debt, with trillions of US debt continuing to spiral out of control, I wouldn’t expect that very high income earners will benefit from this program. It’s hard to argue that a 1 or 2 percenter couldn’t have simply paid off the debt. I expect that it will be, appropriately, phased out by income as many other federal tax programs are.
I wouldn’t put my money on that scheme.
As an aside, call me old school but if you take out a loan, you should plan to pay it off. You could argue about if a elementary school teacher in Alabama that went to Stanford should have to pay back $200k of student debt, but she probably wouldn’t have near that much in loans, and an attending physician isn’t an elementary school teacher.

old school or not who cares? Would you take advantage of a tax loophole to save money or hand over your hard earned bucks to the government?

To me this is a big giant loophole not really meant for high earning physicians but because the initial iteration of the law did not dictate forgiveness by income, we are indeed all included unless you don’t qualify based on employer or other reasons (not making qualifying payments etc).


just to dispel some misinformation the first forgiveness was offered in 2017 not 2014
 
Not having to worry about loans >>>> whatever small money you’ll save with these risky maneuvers.

I paid mine off fast and couldn’t be happier.

Although I agree with you that the OP explained a complicated plan which has high risk the general PSLF plans are almost too good to not entertain.

I’m paying an IBR plan <$500 per month on average over the last 6.5 years (which has near zero impact on my living expenses with a wife and daughter). I completed 3 years IM a chief year and 3 years of sub specialty training during which time I could have certainly paid more but would’ve also led to more appreciable changes in the day to day spending.

At the end of the day I’m continuing on in academics at a nice but not lucrative salary which afford the slightly higher (~1500-2000$ Mo payments) for the remaining ~35 payments. In the end the potential forgiveness is massive. This doesn’t make sense for everyone but it a gamble that is well worth it for some
 
The math seems off.

I would never recommend anyone ever take out loans aiming for IBR/PAYE/REPAYE forgiveness. Your loans balloon to such a massively unwieldy amount, and the tax bomb is ridiculous. Yes, maybe that gets taken away, but maybe forgiveness in general goes away. Maybe tax rates go up-what if they approach 50%?

PSLF is already iffy enough, but at least you only have 10 years until you see if the gamble pays off, and it’s tax-free.

Borrow the minimum possible. Pay off your loans as quick as you can-the vast majority of physicians should be able to pay if all off within 3-5 years of finishing residency, if not much sooner.
 
The math seems off.

I would never recommend anyone ever take out loans aiming for IBR/PAYE/REPAYE forgiveness. Your loans balloon to such a massively unwieldy amount, and the tax bomb is ridiculous. Yes, maybe that gets taken away, but maybe forgiveness in general goes away. Maybe tax rates go up-what if they approach 50%?

PSLF is already iffy enough, but at least you only have 10 years until you see if the gamble pays off, and it’s tax-free.

Borrow the minimum possible. Pay off your loans as quick as you can-the vast majority of physicians should be able to pay if all off within 3-5 years of finishing residency, if not much sooner.

this is not necessarily good advice for everyone. As “iffy” as PSLF is, if you happen to take a job that qualifies for it (ie 501c3) and you’re a subspecialist (so you’ve had 6-8 years of training) then it’s not much of a gamble to continue to give it a shot. If it doesn’t work out yes you’ll owe more in interest but you could also refinance at the point to bring interest down and you could easily readjust.Not for everyone of course but there is way too much negativity towards it despite a) there being no appreciable changes since it’s enactment and b) the high reward of having tax free forgiveness of such a large sum of money.

the reporting on this in the news has been pretty grim but the reality is that almost all people who applied and got denied either
A) did not have 120 qualifying payments
B) did not qualify based on place of work
C) had not properly consolidated
D) hadn’t filled out the necessary employment forms.

much more will be known I’d say in about 2 years when more people become eligible and we see if there are any significant changes to the program

see this article for more information.

 
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this is not necessarily good advice for everyone. As “iffy” as PSLF is, if you happen to take a job that qualifies for it (ie 501c3) and you’re a subspecialist (so you’ve had 6-8 years of training) then it’s not much of a gamble to continue to give it a shot. If it doesn’t work out yes you’ll owe more in interest but you could also refinance at the point to bring interest down and you could easily readjust.Not for everyone of course but there is way too much negativity towards it despite a) there being no appreciable changes since it’s enactment and b) the high reward of having tax free forgiveness of such a large sum of money.

the reporting on this in the news has been pretty grim but the reality is that almost all people who applied and got denied either
A) did not have 120 qualifying payments
B) did not qualify based on place of work
C) had not properly consolidated
D) hadn’t filled out the necessary employment forms.

much more will be known I’d say in about 2 years when more people become eligible and we see if there are any significant changes to the program

see this article for more information.

I totally get what you are saying. I think the rules will change and I have reason to believe this. Reagan introduced a new loan for med students, called HEAL. Health Education Assistance Loan. It was a few points above prime, like the current loans are. The thinking at the time was physicians made several times the average American income, like now. Why should we continue to subsidize student loans for med students at 2%, when they can easily pay them back?. Btw, my wife's HEAL loan was at 17%, and our first mortgage was at 10.75%. I dont see this program, PSLF, remaining unchanged. Most americans will believe doctors should easily be able to pay off their debt, without fully understanding the enormous costs of med school. I agree, some may slip through with loan forgiveness, but it's a risky proposition and should be taken only if they have a relatively high risk tolerance. Good luck and best wishes!
 
I totally get what you are saying. I think the rules will change and I have reason to believe this. Reagan introduced a new loan for med students, called HEAL. Health Education Assistance Loan. It was a few points above prime, like the current loans are. The thinking at the time was physicians made several times the average American income, like now. Why should we continue to subsidize student loans for med students at 2%, when they can easily pay them back?. Btw, my wife's HEAL loan was at 17%, and our first mortgage was at 10.75%. I dont see this program, PSLF, remaining unchanged. Most americans will believe doctors should easily be able to pay off their debt, without fully understanding the enormous costs of med school. I agree, some may slip through with loan forgiveness, but it's a risky proposition and should be taken only if they have a relatively high risk tolerance. Good luck and best wishes!

I hear your perspective. Here’s a hypothetical;

Person A
Pays back loans on income driven repayment plan throughout residency and fellowship (7yrs)
Principal amount: 250,000
Amount paid off in 7 years: $42,000
Remaining with interest: $310,000 (rough estimate)

options;
Continue making IDR
Year 8: remains at 500$/mo=$6000
Additional interest accrued after payments ~$15,000
Year 9: based on year 8 salary, $2500/mo payments. Covers interest +~$5000.
Year 10: based on year 9 salary, $2700/mo
Again covers interest and and additional $10,000
Amount left $315,000. Forgiven tax free (pre tax value of ~$500,000)
Total amount paid back; $110,000
$11,000 a year for 10 years

Person b
Same exact situation but decides he/she doesn’t want to do loan forgiveness due to uncertainty.
Refinances remaining $310,000
Interest rate from 7% to 4%, 7 year repayment plan.
~$4250/mo
Total paid after refinancing: $355,000
Total paid altogether $397,000

Difference in loan payments between person a and b=$287,000

That difference is more than the principal of the loan itself and is a substantial amount of money.

Now if person A was smart, they’d take there monthly savings during those 7 yrs and invest smartly in a mutual fund cd etc and let’s assume conservative growth at 5%.
After 20 years that difference has gone from substantial to massive.

At the end of 7 years the value on that money is ~$350,000 and after 20 years (assuming you stopped making contributions for arguments sake) is worth $675,000. This is at a modest rerun of 5%. At 7% it’s $862,000 difference after 20 years.

now let’s take the case of hypothetical person c who attempts loan forgiveness but is either denied or program is rescinded:

same as person A up until year 10, then:
$315,000 refinanced at 4% paid back over 7 years:
$4400/mo
Total amount paid during 7 years: $370,000
Total amount paid altogether: $480,000

difference between person b and person c=
$83,000

not insignificant but also 3.33x less than the possible upside. It’s an excellent bet based on this exact situation. Some people make higher payments during training. Some people want to do private practice. Some people will train for a shorter time. Some have smaller or larger loan amounts. The advice to take advantage of PSLF should be given on a case by case basis
 
I totally get what you are saying. I think the rules will change and I have reason to believe this. Reagan introduced a new loan for med students, called HEAL. Health Education Assistance Loan. It was a few points above prime, like the current loans are. The thinking at the time was physicians made several times the average American income, like now. Why should we continue to subsidize student loans for med students at 2%, when they can easily pay them back?. Btw, my wife's HEAL loan was at 17%, and our first mortgage was at 10.75%. I dont see this program, PSLF, remaining unchanged. Most americans will believe doctors should easily be able to pay off their debt, without fully understanding the enormous costs of med school. I agree, some may slip through with loan forgiveness, but it's a risky proposition and should be taken only if they have a relatively high risk tolerance. Good luck and best wishes!

I acknowledge that there is some risk to the PSLF strategy, but I don't consider it nearly as risky as others seem to.

Although they wouldn't technically have to, it seems highly unlikely that any changes to PSLF wouldn't grandfather previous borrowers. Previous, failed bills which have targeted PSLF have grandfathered in those with existing debt that would have qualified under the program. Aside from the political ramifications, not grandfathering in existing borrowers would invite a ton of massive lawsuits.

Also, again, even if you are worried that the floor is going to fall out of the PSLF program, if you were going to qualify for it anyway, why wouldn't you just buy index funds according to how you would otherwise have paid off the loans and then use that to pay off the loans if PSLF goes away suddenly? The growth of the funds will likely outpace the interest on the loans, anyway.
 
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I acknowledge that there is some risk to the PSLF strategy, but I don't consider it nearly as risky as others seem to.

Although they wouldn't technically have to, it seems highly unlikely that any changes to PSLF wouldn't grandfather previous borrowers. Previous, failed bills which have targeted PSLF have grandfathered in those with existing debt that would have qualified under the program. Aside from the political ramifications, not grandfathering in existing borrowers would invite a ton of massive lawsuits.

Also, again, even if you are worried that the floor is going to fall out of the PSLF program, if you were going to qualify for it anyway, why wouldn't you just buy index funds according to how you would otherwise have paid off the loans and then use that to pay off the loans if PSLF goes away suddenly? The growth of the funds will likely outpace the interest on the loans, anyway.

see my above calculation. The benefit is as clear as day
 
I hear your perspective. Here’s a hypothetical;

Person A
Pays back loans on income driven repayment plan throughout residency and fellowship (7yrs)
Principal amount: 250,000
Amount paid off in 7 years: $42,000
Remaining with interest: $310,000 (rough estimate)

options;
Continue making IDR
Year 8: remains at 500$/mo=$6000
Additional interest accrued after payments ~$15,000
Year 9: based on year 8 salary, $2500/mo payments. Covers interest +~$5000.
Year 10: based on year 9 salary, $2700/mo
Again covers interest and and additional $10,000
Amount left $315,000. Forgiven tax free (pre tax value of ~$500,000)
Total amount paid back; $110,000
$11,000 a year for 10 years

Person b
Same exact situation but decides he/she doesn’t want to do loan forgiveness due to uncertainty.
Refinances remaining $310,000
Interest rate from 7% to 4%, 7 year repayment plan.
~$4250/mo
Total paid after refinancing: $355,000
Total paid altogether $397,000

Difference in loan payments between person a and b=$287,000

That difference is more than the principal of the loan itself and is a substantial amount of money.

Now if person A was smart, they’d take there monthly savings during those 7 yrs and invest smartly in a mutual fund cd etc and let’s assume conservative growth at 5%.
After 20 years that difference has gone from substantial to massive.

At the end of 7 years the value on that money is ~$350,000 and after 20 years (assuming you stopped making contributions for arguments sake) is worth $675,000. This is at a modest rerun of 5%. At 7% it’s $862,000 difference after 20 years.

now let’s take the case of hypothetical person c who attempts loan forgiveness but is either denied or program is rescinded:

same as person A up until year 10, then:
$315,000 refinanced at 4% paid back over 7 years:
$4400/mo
Total amount paid during 7 years: $370,000
Total amount paid altogether: $480,000

difference between person b and person c=
$83,000

not insignificant but also 3.33x less than the possible upside. It’s an excellent bet based on this exact situation. Some people make higher payments during training. Some people want to do private practice. Some people will train for a shorter time. Some have smaller or larger loan amounts. The advice to take advantage of PSLF should be given on a case by case basis
Very interesting response. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Agree with the individual basis, some only do 3 yrs post grad, not 7. Stocks can have bad years and decades. I think its was like 1999 to 2009 that if you had money in stocks in 1999, it took until 2009 for the accounts to return to their earlier values. Stocks dont always outperform the interest rate on your loan. It's always good to have a plan and you are nearly to the end of yours. It looks like it will work out for you in the end. Good choice!
 
Very interesting response. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Agree with the individual basis, some only do 3 yrs post grad, not 7. Stocks can have bad years and decades. I think its was like 1999 to 2009 that if you had money in stocks in 1999, it took until 2009 for the accounts to return to their earlier values. Stocks dont always outperform the interest rate on your loan. It's always good to have a plan and you are nearly to the end of yours. It looks like it will work out for you in the end. Good choice!

agree re; stocks. Especially during volatile times. Throw all that savings into something like a cd gaining 2-2.5% yearly and it’s even still a decent return on investment.

Main point is to illustrate the savings even without investments
 
this is not necessarily good advice for everyone. As “iffy” as PSLF is, if you happen to take a job that qualifies for it (ie 501c3) and you’re a subspecialist (so you’ve had 6-8 years of training) then it’s not much of a gamble to continue to give it a shot. If it doesn’t work out yes you’ll owe more in interest but you could also refinance at the point to bring interest down and you could easily readjust.Not for everyone of course but there is way too much negativity towards it despite a) there being no appreciable changes since it’s enactment and b) the high reward of having tax free forgiveness of such a large sum of money.

the reporting on this in the news has been pretty grim but the reality is that almost all people who applied and got denied either
A) did not have 120 qualifying payments
B) did not qualify based on place of work
C) had not properly consolidated
D) hadn’t filled out the necessary employment forms.

much more will be known I’d say in about 2 years when more people become eligible and we see if there are any significant changes to the program

see this article for more information.


I agree-I just recommend no one go into debt with their payoff plan being PSLF. Don’t borrow if you can’t pay every penny back.

If you can take advantage of the program, go for it. But no one should pursue it without a backup plan
 
I'm willing to pay back every penny. Just hoping to be forgiven on interest and this essentially becoming a low interest (2% loan). I would take out a $1 million dollar loan at 1% interest rate even if I don't need that money, cause I know I can easily find investments that have higher than 1% return
 
what happens if you are unable to pay the tax when the loan is forgiving? lets say in 25 years your loan has now ballooned to 3M, and it gets forgiven and you dont have the cash to pay it off that year? is it the same as not paying taxes in full for income?
 
what happens if you are unable to pay the tax when the loan is forgiving? lets say in 25 years your loan has now ballooned to 3M, and it gets forgiven and you dont have the cash to pay it off that year? is it the same as not paying taxes in full for income?

I doubt the loan would balloon that high, but it depends on the original amount.

Yes, it would be the same as not paying your full taxes because that is exactly what it is-not paying your full taxes. Badness will follow if you don’t pay it, unless IBR/PAYE forgiveness is made tax-free.

Which it could be-there’s still 15-20 years or so until people get forgiveness through income based plans. Of course, that’s plenty of time for things to change for the worse as well (such as higher taxes)
 
Do you know if IBR is calculated based on previous years tax return. If thats the case, then I should be paying $0 for one whole year since my previous year tax return was $0. Then, the next year, I will only have to pay $500 for the second year since the previous year, I only had my residency for 6 months income after graduating. ($27000-$3500 HSA contribution-$18500 living deduction).
 
Do you know if IBR is calculated based on previous years tax return. If thats the case, then I should be paying $0 for one whole year since my previous year tax return was $0. Then, the next year, I will only have to pay $500 for the second year since the previous year, I only had my residency for 6 months income after graduating. ($27000-$3500 HSA contribution-$18500 living deduction).
it is and that’s what I did intern year and got credit for those payments

you’re overestimating you’re payments also-would be lower than 500 2nd year
 
Imagine graduating residency, paying off loans for the next 4 years while still living like a resident, then your salary drops to 100k because of Medicare for All or a new executive order. Hahahahaha
but youd still have no loans, and laugh at the people who have hundreds of thousands of loans racking up 7% interest on a 100k salary. Its never wrong to pay off high interest loans
 
but youd still have no loans, and laugh at the people who have hundreds of thousands of loans racking up 7% interest on a 100k salary. Its never wrong to pay off high interest loans

Thats part of the reason why I'm interested in maxing out federal loans. Its like insurance. If I get disabled, have major health issues, fail out, get kicked out, get a felony conviction, decide medicine is not my calling, have to take care of a sick loved one, or doctors salary are drastically reduced to half of what they are now, I won't owe anything or will owe a lot less
 
Just a quick note, The 10% payment for IBR/REPAYE is based on AGI not post-tax income. So with a salary of $300k, it's more like $29k a year not $18k


I just did a whole spread sheet of calculations. If I start during residency, start out making $250K a year, and add $10k a year, I will have paid $470K, including the tax bomb, on a $320K loan. That is equivalent to an average 3.7% interest rate over an average time of 22 years, similar to a mortgage. That is also equivalent to investing $320K in a 2.2% CD and taking it out 22 years later (since you get interest on both the initial amount and the money you make off interest, you only need a 2.2% rate. With many CDs offering 2.5-3%, I think its cheap money to invest. Plus, I'm hoping to use the cash I'll have after graduation to buy or make a down payment on my first home.
 
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