Chiropractic

[rooster]

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"So he contorted my shoulders in one direction and my pelvis in another, I heard a crack and saw fcuking stars. I told him to get his hands off of me or I'd rip his nuts off. The pain was twice as bad when I left his office. "

You have failed(either by ommision or commision) to "detail" how it felt several hours later, or the the next day. Or, what you did after that(go back to your MD?)-------Being that your story ended so abrubtly, leads one to believe that - there was an intial discomfort, but it quickly subsided and did not require any further attention. Just coincidental?

 

[lawguil]

150 hours (1 year) pathology I & II with lab. Also took Histology and cell biology with lab. Follow link below for description.

Who instructed the course? A Chiro (DC)??? If you took these courses at a chiropractic school, I'm sure there was some Chiropractic influence.

My intention was not to insult the dental profession. My point was that a DC studies more of the whole body than does a dentist. Listen, I respect dentists and am not trying to belittle your profession.

Quit distorting reality. What's your measure? When you study pathokinesiology (DC's probably have some other novel name for it) in what shape, form or spirit is it more encompassing of the whole body than a Dentist. Only in that of biomechanics. So you can identify hip anteversion and lumbar lordosis! Novel stuff. And because your somewhat knowledgable to the gross anatomical structures of the body, your education is more encompassing to the whole body than a dentist. I'm guessing that you might actually be on to this, but subluxation and pathology/disease are not synonymous. Dental schools provide training in pathology and disease by experts; chiropractor schools don't. Dentists have to be trained to treat oral and maxillofacial problems in patients who might also suffer from emphysema, COPD, Diabetes, heart disease and every other disease under the sun because what they do invasively or non-invasively may affect the persons overall health." Chiropractors attend non-academic institutions run and taught by chiropractors. I’m sure you can tell us all more about the wonderful educational enlightenment that manifests there, but I’m afraid of becoming a more ignorant and stupid human being as a result of it.

You could be a great advocate for reforming the chiropractic profession by taking the MCAT, attending medical school (or Dental School) and experiencing the difference.

 

[BackTalk]

Who instructed the course? A Chiro (DC)??? If you took these courses at a chiropractic school, I'm sure there was some Chiropractic influence.

Those courses were actually taught by a MD not a DC. Many of the courses in chiropractic school are taught by MD’s or Ph.D. There are courses taught by DC’s and those DC’s usually have another degree such as a Ph.D. or perhaps a master’s degree geared toward the subject being taught. And yes, there are courses taught by DC’s without any other degree other than perhaps a bachelor’s degree of some kind. Usually these are the courses that involve chiropractic technique and procedures.

Quit distorting reality. What's your measure? When you study pathokinesiology (DC's probably have some other novel name for it) in what shape, form or spirit is it more encompassing of the whole body than a Dentist.

Since when does a dentist study “pathokinesiology”?

I have no problems with Dentists, in fact I have a brother in dental school. My opinion was based upon what he tells me when I see him and asked what he been studying. Sorry for my ignorance, thanks for clarifying the education with regard to the “whole human” body and dentistry. I appreciate the effort.

Dental schools provide training in pathology and disease by experts; chiropractor schools don't.

Just as I’ve shown my ignorance so have you. Many courses throughout Chiropractic College are taught by experts in their respected fields, an example of this would be pharmacology. It’s not taught by a chiropractor but by a pharmD who also taught at the local pharmacy school and a well-respected medical school in town.

Chiropractors attend non-academic institutions run and taught by chiropractors.

Aren’t most dental procedures taught by dentists? Aren’t most dental schools run by dentists? Why is it OK for dentists to teach dental students but its not OK for chiropractors to teach chiropractic students? Were any of your AT courses taught by athletic trainers?

I’m sure you can tell us all more about the wonderful educational enlightenment that manifests there, but I’m afraid of becoming a more ignorant and stupid human being as a result of it.

I don’t think that’s possible. 😀

You could be a great advocate for reforming the chiropractic profession by taking the MCAT, attending medical school (or Dental School) and experiencing the difference.

You could too by attending chiropractic school and experiencing the difference.

 

[jesse14]

Hey back talk,

Just give it up man. Some people on this msg board just don't want to listin to reason when it comes to chiropractic. This is the way i see it and the way i think all people in health care should see it: Medical doctors,dentists,chiropractors,podiatrist,optomitrists, etc should ALL respect and understand what each profession does in relation to the patient. Chiro school is no joke despite what anyone may say. Neither is dentistry or medical school. I hate how ppl come on this site and bash chiro school when A) they've never been and B) have not the slightest clue about what they're talking about. I will say it again: Chiropractic works! If it didn't then why would the government let it be known as a primary care profession? It's been around for over 100 years and it's not going anywhere. Neither are DDS's, MD's, or, DPM's. all for good reaon If anyone would like to talk to me privatley about this matter they can email me at [email protected]

Bye for now

 

[niko327]

"So he contorted my shoulders in one direction and my pelvis in another, I heard a crack and saw fcuking stars. I told him to get his hands off of me or I'd rip his nuts off. The pain was twice as bad when I left his office. "

You have failed(either by ommision or commision) to "detail" how it felt several hours later, or the the next day. Or, what you did after that(go back to your MD?)-------Being that your story ended so abrubtly, leads one to believe that - there was an intial discomfort, but it quickly subsided and did not require any further attention. Just coincidental?

Sorry for the abrupt ending. The next couple of hours hurt....bad. The next day I was still hurting bad, worse than before I went to the chiropractor. I did go back to my MD who basically told me to keep taking the meds he gave me. I did NOT go back to the chiropractor. It took a couple of weeks to get back to normal. I believe the adjustment did nothing more than increase the baseline of the pain.
Despite this experience I will not make a sweeping indictment of chiropractic, maybe my chiropractor just wasn't any good, but I highly doubt I'd ever visit a chiropractor again. I just wanted to present a different story to balance out the viewpoints and anecdotes presented thus far.

 

[lawguil]

Those courses were actually taught by a MD not a DC. Many of the courses in chiropractic school are taught by MD’s or Ph.D. There are courses taught by DC’s and those DC’s usually have another degree such as a Ph.D. or perhaps a master’s degree geared toward the subject being taught. And yes, there are courses taught by DC’s without any other degree other than perhaps a bachelor’s degree of some kind. Usually these are the courses that involve chiropractic technique and procedures”

What are "Those courses"? Did the DC's with a PhD buy into Palmers philosophy as well. If the instructors have such great credentials, why such quackery and lack of evidence based practice. I just might review the faculty at one of the schools. I hope your right, but I'm skeptical.

“Since when does a dentist study “pathokinesiology”? “

I never said they did and I suspect that they don't. My point is pathokinesiology has very little to do with screening a person for pathology and disease. The problem that I think everybody is eluding to is that Chiro's often end up treating non-mechanical ailments/problems mechanically because they fail to recognize the real problem due to the lack of education and appropriate clinical training. What is even more troubling is that you actually think you have the skills, knowledge, and resources.

“I have no problems with Dentists, in fact I have a brother in dental school. My opinion was based upon what he tells me when I see him and asked what he been studying. Sorry for my ignorance, thanks for clarifying the education with regard to the “whole human” body and dentistry. I appreciate the effort. “


My point, they are trained using a medical model, not some subluxation theory and the dental profession is standardized and regulated. There history with prescription rights speaks for itself.

“Just as I’ve shown my ignorance so have you. Many courses throughout Chiropractic College are taught by experts in their respected fields, an example of this would be pharmacology. It’s not taught by a chiropractor but by a pharmD who also taught at the local pharmacy school and a well-respected medical school in town.”

My point, you can have a PhD in pharmacology/toxicology, but you still can't prescribe buddy. A course by some pharmD in pharmacology simply = a course in pharmacology, their is nothing clinical about it. It's just the beginning. Excuse me for my ignorance. Sometimes we all shoot from the hip.

“Aren’t most dental procedures taught by dentists? Aren’t most dental schools run by dentists? Why is it OK for dentists to teach dental students but its not OK for chiropractors to teach chiropractic students? Were any of your AT courses taught by athletic trainers? “

Dental, medical, PT, ATC schools are not autonomous. They are housed in respectable academic institution. And yes MD's, DO's, PT's, ATC's do teach the clinical courses, however, the heavy science courses are USUALLY instructed by authorities in the subject. If my understanding is correct, this is often not the case in Chiro training.

“ You could too by attending chiropractic school and experiencing the difference.”

Why don't you go out and try to muster up a few more ADHD patients with your ADHD treatment advertisement. Is this what the PhD's at Palmer would teach me, that I can claim to successfully treat ADHD because of a lousy case study that was published in a journal refereed by Chiro's.? No thanks, I'm all set. They can sell crazy to somebody else. L.

 

[jdig]

As a former chiropractor now MS3, I am, to put it mildly, disenfranchised with the profession.
However, I can attest after doing both, that the basic sciences are more or less similiar. My first 2 years of basic sciences at chiro school were taight by either PH.D's or M.D's almost exclusively, and they were not chiropractors. They taught the course from a scientific stand-point, with little or no mention of chiropractic.
However, the 3-4th years were ridiculous classes taught by mostly DC's. That is more or less where they "rope you in"
Hope this helps.

 

[BackTalk]

What are "Those courses"? Did the DC's with a PhD buy into Palmers philosophy as well. If the instructors have such great credentials, why such quackery and lack of evidence based practice. I just might review the faculty at one of the schools. I hope your right, but I'm skeptical.

Like jdig said “basic sciences at chiro school were taught by either PH.D's or M.D's almost exclusively, and they were not chiropractors. They taught the course from a scientific stand-point, with little or no mention of chiropractic.”

The problem that I think everybody is eluding to is that Chiro's often end up treating non-mechanical ailments/problems mechanically because they fail to recognize the real problem due to the lack of education and appropriate clinical training. What is even more troubling is that you actually think you have the skills, knowledge, and resources.

I won’t deny that there are chiropractors out there that may fail to recognize underlying pathology, which may be causing the “real problem”. There are many other doctors of other professions where this happens as well. We do have the skills, knowledge, and resources to function as primary care practitioners. You just have a problem with chiropractors and prefer to focus on the fringe activities that exist in the profession.

My point, they are trained using a medical model, not some subluxation theory and the dental profession is standardized and regulated. There history with prescription rights speaks for itself.

I agree that chiropractic education could use more standardization. I have addressed that issue here in the past. My education was not based on “subluxation theory”.

My point, you can have a PhD in pharmacology/toxicology, but you still can't prescribe buddy. A course by some pharmD in pharmacology simply = a course in pharmacology, their is nothing clinical about it. It's just the beginning. Excuse me for my ignorance. Sometimes we all shoot from the hip.

Chiropractic is a profession is a drugless profession. It has nothing to do with “can’t” being able to prescribe. The point of pharmacology in chiropractic school is to know what medications are out there and what they are prescribed for and the possible side effects. It’s not deigned to add prescription medication to the scope of chiropractic practice. My point was it was taught by a pharmD and not a chiropractor as you think all courses are taught by chiropractors who attempt to influence students into believing their own personal philosophical beliefs.

Dental, medical, PT, ATC schools are not autonomous. They are housed in respectable academic institution. And yes MD's, DO's, PT's, ATC's do teach the clinical courses, however, the heavy science courses are USUALLY instructed by authorities in the subject. If my understanding is correct, this is often not the case in Chiro training.

I already explained the faculty and the courses that are taught by them in chiropractic college. You were right, the more I explain the more ignorant and stupid you become.

Why don't you go out and try to muster up a few more ADHD patients with your ADHD treatment advertisement. Is this what the PhD's at Palmer would teach me, that I can claim to successfully treat ADHD because of a lousy case study that was published in a journal refereed by Chiro's.? No thanks, I'm all set. They can sell crazy to somebody else.

Why don’t you go tape an ankle? 😀 I never said anything about treating ADHD patients nor do I advertise I do and no that’s not what Ph.D. in chiropractic school would teach nor would they probably teach it at Palmer. I didn’t attend Palmer. As far as being “roped in” in the 3-4th year, you will have to as jdig about that. I wasn’t roped into anything. I’m trying to answer your questions and give you a little education with regard to Chiropractic College. Apparently there is nothing I can say that would ever change your mind.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I don't know why some professions don't have any respect for other professions. I know people who have had great experiences with chiropractors as well as bad. I also know people who have had great experiences with MD's as well as bad. I think that the argument comes down to doing what is best with for the patient. Doctors need to relize that when their treatment for back, hip, ankle, whatever pain doesn't work, perhaps it is time to refer them to a chiropractor. Chiropractors also need to realize what is out of their scope of practice and they need to refer the patients out to traditional medicine. I do agree that their is a much greater varience in what chiropractors feel their scopes of practice encompas and that is where the problem arises. There are some excellent chiropractors in this country but unfortunately there are also plenty of bad ones and these are the ones that people hear about. One example is a family friend who had a scalp infection, she went to her chiropractor and he told her to wash her hair in her own urine. Lets just say the infection did not resolve until she got some cream from her physician. Then again I have another friend who had seen numerous physicians for lower back pain and right leg numbness for over a month without any resolve and after 3 visits to a chiropractor he was able to ride his bike again.

My point:

There are both chiropractors and physicians that do a lot of good for their patients and they all deserve respect.
There are also a lot of crappy docs and quacks that do nothing good for their patients and they shouldn't be allowed to practice.

Now I think that we can all agree that Dentists are on another playing field and can do no wrong because they are all perfect. That is why I am starting dental school in the fall

 

[jdig]

I don't know why some professions don't have any respect for other professions. I know people who have had great experiences with chiropractors as well as bad. I also know people who have had great experiences with MD's as well as bad. I think that the argument comes down to doing what is best with for the patient. Doctors need to relize that when their treatment for back, hip, ankle, whatever pain doesn't work, perhaps it is time to refer them to a chiropractor. Chiropractors also need to realize what is out of their scope of practice and they need to refer the patients out to traditional medicine. I do agree that their is a much greater varience in what chiropractors feel their scopes of practice encompas and that is where the problem arises. There are some excellent chiropractors in this country but unfortunately there are also plenty of bad ones and these are the ones that people hear about. One example is a family friend who had a scalp infection, she went to her chiropractor and he told her to wash her hair in her own urine. Lets just say the infection did not resolve until she got some cream from her physician. Then again I have another friend who had seen numerous physicians for lower back pain and right leg numbness for over a month without any resolve and after 3 visits to a chiropractor he was able to ride his bike again.

My point:

There are both chiropractors and physicians that do a lot of good for their patients and they all deserve respect.
There are also a lot of crappy docs and quacks that do nothing good for their patients and they shouldn't be allowed to practice.

Now I think that we can all agree that Dentists are on another playing field and can do no wrong because they are all perfect. That is why I am starting dental school in the fall

well spoken,
i feel bad about my "roped in"comment. i cant blame the school for trying to make me a good chiropractor by teaching me their philospophy. it is just that i prefer medicine now that i have been exposed to it.

 

[rooster]

well spoken,
i feel bad about my "roped in"comment. i cant blame the school for trying to make me a good chiropractor by teaching me their philospophy. it is just that i prefer medicine now that i have been exposed to it.

Your background and experience with chiropractic, I am sure, will make you a better MD.

Best wishes

 

[lawguil]

Like jdig said “basic sciences at chiro school were taught by either PH.D's or M.D's almost exclusively, and they were not chiropractors. They taught the course from a scientific stand-point, with little or no mention of chiropractic.”



I won’t deny that there are chiropractors out there that may fail to recognize underlying pathology, which may be causing the “real problem”. There are many other doctors of other professions where this happens as well. We do have the skills, knowledge, and resources to function as primary care practitioners. You just have a problem with chiropractors and prefer to focus on the fringe activities that exist in the profession.



I agree that chiropractic education could use more standardization. I have addressed that issue here in the past. My education was not based on “subluxation theory”.



Chiropractic is a profession is a drugless profession. It has nothing to do with “can’t” being able to prescribe. The point of pharmacology in chiropractic school is to know what medications are out there and what they are prescribed for and the possible side effects. It’s not deigned to add prescription medication to the scope of chiropractic practice. My point was it was taught by a pharmD and not a chiropractor as you think all courses are taught by chiropractors who attempt to influence students into believing their own personal philosophical beliefs.



I already explained the faculty and the courses that are taught by them in Chiropractic College. You were right, the more I explain the more ignorant and stupid you become.



Why don’t you go tape an ankle? 😀 I never said anything about treating ADHD patients nor do I advertise I do and no that’s not what Ph.D. in chiropractic school would teach nor would they probably teach it at Palmer. I didn’t attend Palmer. As far as being “roped in” in the 3-4th year, you will have to as jdig about that. I wasn’t roped into anything. I’m trying to answer your questions and give you a little education with regard to Chiropractic College. Apparently there is nothing I can say that would ever change your mind.

As I mentioned in my last post Backtalk, I was shooting from the hip and I stand corrected on a few issues. I am tickled that MD's and PhD's teach at chiro schools and I don't dispute some of the NMS benefits of manipulation, however, I fervently disagree that DC's have the training, education, or resources to be primary care practitioners and I disagree with direct access for DC's, PT's, OT's, ect for many of the reasons aforementioned in other posts by a number of people. Further, I believe it was you (Backtalk) that said you would like limited prescription rights to treat your patients. That doesn’t sound like a profession that wishes to remain completely drugless. When you expressed yourself about this issue, I had the impression that many of the "straights" had similar ambitions if they had some extra training. My belief is that the extra training should be medical school. Backtalk, don't mistake me as a person who will make a decision and then spend the rest of my life trying to defend it. I am not a supporter of DC's because of the way they choose to practice and because I understand there are better practitioners who are better trained, regulated and standardized.

 

[BackTalk]

I fervently disagree that DC's have the training, education, or resources to be primary care practitioners and I disagree with direct access for DC's, PT's, OT's, ect for many of the reasons aforementioned in other posts by a number of people.

Whatever, you are wrong end of story. You probably don't know the difference between "primary care practitioner" and "Primary Care Physician".

Further, I believe it was you (Backtalk) that said you would like limited prescription rights to treat your patients. That doesn’t sound like a profession that wishes to remain completely drugless.

Yeah I said that and am all for it.

When you expressed yourself about this issue, I had the impression that many of the "straights" had similar ambitions if they had some extra training.

Actually you don't even understand the differences between the different camps within chiropractic. Straights would never prescribe medication nor would they ever support it.

I am not a supporter of DC's because of the way they choose to practice and because I understand there are better practitioners who are better trained, regulated and standardized.

That's nice; now ask me if I care. You can go piss off now.

 

[lawguil]

Whatever, you are wrong end of story. You probably don't know the difference between "primary care practitioner" and "Primary Care Physician".

Actually you don't even understand the differences between the different camps within chiropractic. Straights would never prescribe medication nor would they ever support it.

Sorry, I guess I messed up again. I think I meant "Mixers"; is that the right one? Or is it pseudo mixers? Once again, I suppose you have to be a chiropractor to understand chiropractors. Anybody aware of a vaccination that would prevent a human being from developing into a chiropractor so that we could rid the world of this cancer in our society?

 

[lawguil]

Whatever, you are wrong end of story. You probably don't know the difference between "primary care practitioner" and "Primary Care Physician".

The question is - do chiropractors understand that they are not primary care physicians. Apparently not. Can you spell narcissism? L.

 

[jesse14]

lawgul,

you're an idiot! I will not even try to answer your questions and debate your comments on something you know NOTHING about. I am not a chiro or a chiro student. I'm just a chiro patient and all i will say is that it works and it works well!!

 

[50960]

The real question in these types of discussions is "who has the biggest @*$("

😀

 

[lawguil]

lawgul,

You’re an idiot! I will not even try to answer your questions and debate your comments on something you know NOTHING about. I am not a chiro or a chiro student. I'm just a chiro patient and all i will say is that it works and it works well!!

OK, I'm an idiot - your right! Let me tell you why! Don't bother trying to answer my questions! I'm also happy that you have had good results from chiro care treatment. Know let me tell you how well chiro treatment worked for me during my undergraduate years. I being a naive consumer having no understanding the difference between a DC, MD, DO, or any other XYZ ended up going to a "chiropractic physician", or at least that’s what it said on the sign, and figured he was a doctor and would go and see him. At the time, I honestly had no idea that a chiro wasn't an MD. The reason I was seeking out medical attention was that I found two lumps in my neck and had noticed them about two/three months previous to seeking out the care. I figured I would have them checked out, however I felt great. So I was walking through town, noticed the chiropractic physician sign, and for some reason decided to go in and make an appointment with the "doctor". Fortunate for me, he happened to have a no show and saw me immediately. So I went in and saw him. I told him my history of feeling great and two lumps in my neck. He checked me out, looked at my spine and extremities and was able to size up the situation. I had a drainage issue with my lymphatic system because I had poor posture and a forward head causing excess curvature in the spine. He said he could correct the issue by doing manipulations and that what I had was fairly common. I said "do what you have to do doc." The first treatment I was a little uncomfortable with, but after a couple visits, I did think the treatments felt good. This went on for seven or eight months with treatment 1-2 times every other week and I still felt perfectly fine, but the lumps were still there. Anyhow, at the end of the second semester and I had signed up for an internship the next year and needed to have a physical evaluation. My adviser set it up with the school doctor who turns out was a DO. I went in to see him and figured what the heck; I'll see what he thinks about the lumps. He asked me how long they had been there I told him approximately a year and that I was undergoing treatment by a local doctor. He asked if I had taken any antibiotics and what doctor I was seeing. I told him "no" and Dr. XYZchiro. He immediately put me on antibiotics for two weeks and insisted that I follow up with him two weeks later come "hell or high water." He also called my PCP back home and told him about the situation. He made no comment about the chiropractor except that what he was doing was not helping me. He also said they are probably just reactive nodes, but if they are still there in two weeks he would pull some strings and get me into an ENT ASAP. I could tell he was concerned. Two weeks later, no change in the Nodes. I go in for a visit and the school doc already had an appointment made for me two days later with the ENT. Went to see the ENT and he recommended that I have the nodes removed. To make a longer story short, it turns out I had Hodgkin’s disease and was treated for eight months by a guy who I thought was a physician and had confidence in because I believed he was a "doctor" and like a large percentage of healthcare consumers, I didn't know the difference. Did my condition worsen over eight month’s chiro care, who knows, there was no control.

Jesse14, I have no disagreement that you have had wonderful results with chiropractic treatment, but you’re NOT giving any consideration to the patients that walk into that same office before or after you who may or may not have an NMS condition. Chiropractors have direct access so their patients are not screened by qualified providers before they enter there office, there is a wide variety of philosophies in chiro community, and they don't seem to have very close working relationships with real physicians. There will always be testimonies by people like yourself who have experienced relief from chiropractic care, but I don't think you’re looking at the global picture. 😉
L.

 

[BackTalk]

OK, I'm an idiot - your right! Let me tell you why! Don't bother trying to answer my questions! I'm also happy that you have had good results from chiro care treatment. Know let me tell you how well chiro treatment worked for me during my undergraduate years. I being a naive consumer having no understanding the difference between a DC, MD, DO, or any other XYZ ended up going to a "chiropractic physician", or at least that’s what it said on the sign, and figured he was a doctor and would go and see him. At the time, I honestly had no idea that a chiro wasn't an MD. The reason I was seeking out medical attention was that I found two lumps in my neck and had noticed them about two/three months previous to seeking out the care. I figured I would have them checked out, however I felt great. So I was walking through town, noticed the chiropractic physician sign, and for some reason decided to go in and make an appointment with the "doctor". Fortunate for me, he happened to have a no show and saw me immediately. So I went in and saw him. I told him my history of feeling great and two lumps in my neck. He checked me out, looked at my spine and extremities and was able to size up the situation. I had a drainage issue with my lymphatic system because I had poor posture and a forward head causing excess curvature in the spine. He said he could correct the issue by doing manipulations and that what I had was fairly common. I said "do what you have to do doc." The first treatment I was a little uncomfortable with, but after a couple visits, I did think the treatments felt good. This went on for seven or eight months with treatment 1-2 times every other week and I still felt perfectly fine, but the lumps were still there. Anyhow, at the end of the second semester and I had signed up for an internship the next year and needed to have a physical evaluation. My adviser set it up with the school doctor who turns out was a DO. I went in to see him and figured what the heck; I'll see what he thinks about the lumps. He asked me how long they had been there I told him approximately a year and that I was undergoing treatment by a local doctor. He asked if I had taken any antibiotics and what doctor I was seeing. I told him "no" and Dr. XYZchiro. He immediately put me on antibiotics for two weeks and insisted that I follow up with him two weeks later come "hell or high water." He also called my PCP back home and told him about the situation. He made no comment about the chiropractor except that what he was doing was not helping me. He also said they are probably just reactive nodes, but if they are still there in two weeks he would pull some strings and get me into an ENT ASAP. I could tell he was concerned. Two weeks later, no change in the Nodes. I go in for a visit and the school doc already had an appointment made for me two days later with the ENT. Went to see the ENT and he recommended that I have the nodes removed. To make a longer story short, it turns out I had Hodgkin’s disease and was treated for eight months by a guy who I thought was a physician and had confidence in because I believed he was a "doctor" and like a large percentage of healthcare consumers, I didn't know the difference. Did my condition worsen over eight month’s chiro care, who knows, there was no control.

Jesse14, I have no disagreement that you have had wonderful results with chiropractic treatment, but you’re NOT giving any consideration to the patients that walk into that same office before or after you who may or may not have an NMS condition. Chiropractors have direct access so their patients are not screened by qualified providers before they enter there office, there is a wide variety of philosophies in chiro community, and they don't seem to have very close working relationships with real physicians. There will always be testimonies by people like yourself who have experienced relief from chiropractic care, but I don't think you’re looking at the global picture. 😉
L.

OK, now we see the real reason why you have a problem with chiropractors. It's unfortunate that this happened, but let's not cast judgment on all chiropractors because one of them happens to be incompetent.

First let me say I'm not defending this chiropractor at all. Hodgkin's and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma are covered quite a bit in chiropractic school, especially in DDX and radiology. I assure you it is not something we choose to ignore. In fact, we are drilled pretty hard on the subject and many questions about the disease appear on the national board exams. I specifically remember learning the signs and symptoms of NHL and HD and especially being hammered on the clinical significance of an "Ivory vertebrae" and what the differential is. Lymphadenopathy is not something we as chiropractors are taught to treat but are trained to recognize.

So does chiropractic help people? Yes. Is chiropractic for everything? No. Are chiropractor's primary care physicians? No. Do chiropractors have the training and ability to function as NMS providers with direct access? Yes. Chiropractors, like podiatrists, dentists and optometrists are clinical doctoring professions that function as primary care practitioners. A chiropractor like any of the other clinical doctoring professions is not a medical doctor.

 

[lawguil]

OK, now we see the real reason why you have a problem with chiropractors. It's unfortunate that this happened, but let's not cast judgment on all chiropractors because one of them happens to be incompetent.

The fact of the matter is that chiro's have direct access, including the most extremely alternative (I believe you call these individuals straights). How do we protect a population who is ignorant about medical professions from the chiro's who think that what they practice is all-encompassing? I fully understand that there are different philosophies in the chiropractic community, but I suspect that they are all trained using the same mold.

When you have an individual walk into your clinic without referral from a physician, what is the longest amount of time that you will treat a person (mechanical or non-mechanical symptoms) before you allow another pair of eyes to evaluate.

Do you ever discourage patients from seeing a physician?

What are the limits of your scope of practice? Are they self-defined?

As a practitioner who seems more level headed than most DC's, do you feel threatened by PT's, who have extremely good training, are standardized and make honest attempts at evidence based practice, are making every effort they can to have direct access, and are starting to teach manipulation as part of there training?

You mentioned that you may have some use for some prescriptions such as Muscle relaxants, NSAIDS, whatever. Currently, in your practice, if you have a patient who you think would benefit from these medications; do you refer them to a physician to see if they will prescribe them or do you simply blow it off and do what you can with your skills and supplements?

If you have children, would you let a chiropractor be your child’s PCP. If yes, would you let any chiropractor act as the PCP or would you select one with a certain philosophy? Which philosophy would you prefer your children to see?

Do you think the general public understand that there are differences in chiropractic care, treatment, and philosophy?

 

[Science_Guy]

The fact of the matter is that chiro's have direct access, including the most extremely alternative (I believe you call these individuals straights). How do we protect a population who is ignorant about medical professions from the chiro's who think that what they practice is all-encompassing? I fully understand that there are different philosophies in the chiropractic community, but I suspect that they are all trained using the same mold.

When you have an individual walk into your clinic without referral from a physician, what is the longest amount of time that you will treat a person (mechanical or non-mechanical symptoms) before you allow another pair of eyes to evaluate.

Do you ever discourage patients from seeing a physician?

What are the limits of your scope of practice? Are they self-defined?

As a practitioner who seems more level headed than most DC's, do you feel threatened by PT's, who have extremely good training, are standardized and make honest attempts at evidence based practice, are making every effort they can to have direct access, and are starting to teach manipulation as part of there training?

You mentioned that you may have some use for some prescriptions such as Muscle relaxants, NSAIDS, whatever. Currently, in your practice, if you have a patient who you think would benefit from these medications; do you refer them to a physician to see if they will prescribe them or do you simply blow it off and do what you can with your skills and supplements?

If you have children, would you let a chiropractor be your child’s PCP. If yes, would you let any chiropractor act as the PCP or would you select one with a certain philosophy? Which philosophy would you prefer your children to see?

Do you think the general public understand that there are differences in chiropractic care, treatment, and philosophy?

Lawguil...how long have you been in remission with your Hodgkin's Disease? Sorry to hear about your experiences. I have seen a similar situation with a patient in a clinical trial who had sought the services of a chiropractor due to "vertebral bone pain" and underwent several visits with the chiro. Unfortunately, his problem turned out to be the effects of lytic bone destruction due to multiple myeloma.

Not to criticize all chiros, as there are many who help folks with chronic NMS disorders. But, I am curious as to how much education chiros receive when it comes to identification of a potential neoplasm, such as lymphoma (in your case) or tumor metastasis to the bones. Misdiagnosis (due to lack of knowledge or faulty underlying philosophy, i.e. must be a subluxation, etc) of this could obviously result in the eventual death of patients who needed oncology treatment.

 

[jesse14]

hey lawguil.

I am sorry that i called you an "idiot" and i'm very sorry to hear about your experience with a chiro. All i can say is that when i go to chiro school i wil try my best to learn what i can and what i can't do and when to refer out. I would have NO problems letting an MD take over my patient if i felt it was something i had no ability to treat. Yet, i still feel that chiro works for consitions such as LBP.

Jesse

 

[BackTalk]

The fact of the matter is that chiro's have direct access, including the most extremely alternative (I believe you call these individuals straights). How do we protect a population who is ignorant about medical professions from the chiro's who think that what they practice is all-encompassing?

Good question. Sorry but I don't have an answer for that one.

I fully understand that there are different philosophies in the chiropractic community, but I suspect that they are all trained using the same mold.

Not all are the same and neither is the training; I hope I'm proof of that.

When you have an individual walk into your clinic without referral from a physician, what is the longest amount of time that you will treat a person (mechanical or non-mechanical symptoms) before you allow another pair of eyes to evaluate.

Depends on the complaint. Sometimes I won't threat and will send them out for testing. I had a lady last week that came in with severe Diplopia, I did a good history and did a good examination and was coming up with zilch. I was baffled and sent her to the ER. Turned out they didn't find anything wrong with her either and the problem resolved on its own. My ego isn't that big and I'm not going to take a risk at missing something. I honestly didn't know what was wrong with this patient. tumor, blockage??...

Do you ever discourage patients from seeing a physician?

No.

What are the limits of your scope of practice? Are they self-defined?

Scope of practice is defined by state statute.

PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS (Illinois)
(225 ILCS 60/) Medical Practice Act of 1987.
(225 ILCS 60/2) (from Ch. 111, par. 4400 2)

10. "Physician" means a person licensed under the Medical Practice Act to practice medicine in all of its branches or a chiropractic physician licensed to treat human ailments without the use of drugs and without operative surgery.

That's pretty much my scope. That is I can treat just about anything without the use of prescriptive drugs our surgery. So is my scope self-defined? Yes it is. I define my own scope and choose to treat conditions that I feel I'm qualified to treat. I don't treat hypertension or diabetes but under the Illinois practiced act I legally probably could.

As a practitioner who seems more level headed than most DC's, do you feel threatened by PT's, who have extremely good training, are standardized and make honest attempts at evidence based practice, are making every effort they can to have direct access, and are starting to teach manipulation as part of there training?

Of course we feel threatened. Even so, people will always associate chiropractors with manipulation and will seek them over physical therapists for that service. Even if manipulation is taught in physical therapy school its amateur stuff compared to the hours of study a DC has. When people have back pain they think chiropractic, when people think of the spine they think chiropractic. When patients think of physical therapy they think exercise or rehab. I think chiropractors over the years have established themselves as "back doctors" or "bone crunchers". The PT profession probably could take over the chiropractic turf as chiropractors keep spinning their wheels trying to define what it is they do. The thing is it will take a very long time for that to happen, not only do they have the opposition of chiropractors but also medical and osteopathic physicians, athletic trainers and occupational therapists. Next it will be massage therapists. Anyway it all politics and whomever spends the most money or has the most connections wins. Also, the PT profession is a female dominated profession and chiropractic on the other hand is a male dominated profession. The females are less aggressive and the males within chiropractic are very aggressive and protective over their turf. By the way, education varies from therapist to therapist.

You mentioned that you may have some use for some prescriptions such as Muscle relaxants, NSAIDS, whatever. Currently, in your practice, if you have a patient who you think would benefit from these medications; do you refer them to a physician to see if they will prescribe them or do you simply blow it off and do what you can with your skills and supplements?

I sure do. If a patient is in unbearable pain I will send them to the ER. I will definitely send them out for meds or will call the PCP and let them know what the situation is and see if he/she will call something in and then have the patient ice the area, take the meds, and return the next day. Also, many times we will use ice and use nerve block (similar to TENS) and get good results. I have found over the years that the good old adjustment is what helps the most. The thing is it's hard to do an adjustment when someone is having back spasms. I am not against meds but it's not a magic bullet. Many times I get patients in my office that have already been to the ER and the meds aren't working. I have also used some supplements with excellent results. You know these days' people are becoming less dependant on pills. Many people don't want to take anything even when I suggest they go see there doctor.

If you have children, would you let a chiropractor be your child’s PCP.

No. Chiropractors do not have the training or the tools to function as a PCP and certainly don't have the education/training to function as a pediatrician. Only a board certified MD or DO can be a pediatrician. My kid's pediatrician is a DO who also happens to have a pharmacy degree. Very knowledgeable doctor.

Do you think the general public understand that there are differences in chiropractic care, treatment, and philosophy?

Good questions. No, most don't. The only ones who do are those who have seen different chiropractors in the past. I love it when I get new patients who have never seen a chiropractor before. I let them know what it is we do before some quack down the road ruins them buy preaching nonsense and making pay $4000 for a year of care.

 

[BackTalk]

Lawguil...how long have you been in remission with your Hodgkin's Disease? Sorry to hear about your experiences. I have seen a similar situation with a patient in a clinical trial who had sought the services of a chiropractor due to "vertebral bone pain" and underwent several visits with the chiro. Unfortunately, his problem turned out to be the effects of lytic bone destruction due to multiple myeloma.

Not to criticize all chiros, as there are many who help folks with chronic NMS disorders. But, I am curious as to how much education chiros receive when it comes to identification of a potential neoplasm, such as lymphoma (in your case) or tumor metastasis to the bones. Misdiagnosis (due to lack of knowledge or faulty underlying philosophy, i.e. must be a subluxation, etc) of this could obviously result in the eventual death of patients who needed oncology treatment.

That is a very good question. As I was telling Lawguil earlier, we were drilled pretty hard when it came to metastasis or tumors and or tumor like processes. We also spent a great deal learning infection, metabolic disorders, anomalies, dysplasia and arthritides to name a few. Do to the nature of our treatment it was all stressed in Chiropractic College and on the board exams.

In school many conditions such as tumor metastasis to bones were called "license stealers". We learned the gamut of them in radiology. What details do you know of the case you mention? Did the guy do any films? Here some thoughts....he didn't do films and neglected to refer the patient when the patient didn't respond to care, he took films and missed the obvious and did not have the films read by the radiologist or he new it all along and was one crazy bastard and thought he could cure him or her. Most logically, he missed it. As you know multiple myeloma is the most common malignant bone tumor and for that alone was hit hard in chiropractic school. Also it is one that can appear as "the ivory vertebrae" and has other tags such as the "pedicle sign", "winking owl" and the hallmark "punched out lesions" etc. I remember it well and especially remember Bence Jones proteinuria (protein electrophoresis for DX). There were multiple questions about it on the boards. Even with all that said I don't think that the chiropractic treatment did any harm and certainly didn't change the outcome (high mortality). To answer your question and considering these two misdiagnosed cases, I would still say chiropractors receive a very good education when it comes to potential neoplasm. Exspecially when it pertains to the spine.

 

[jesse14]

That is a very good question. As I was telling Lawguil earlier, we were drilled pretty hard when it came to metastasis or tumors and or tumor like processes. We also spent a great deal learning infection, metabolic disorders, anomalies, dysplasia and arthritides to name a few. Do to the nature of our treatment it was all stressed in Chiropractic College and on the board exams.

In school many conditions such as tumor metastasis to bones were called "license stealers". We learned the gamut of them in radiology. What details do you know of the case you mention? Did the guy do any films? Here some thoughts....he didn't do films and neglected to refer the patient when the patient didn't respond to care, he took films and missed the obvious and did not have the films read by the radiologist or he new it all along and was one crazy bastard and thought he could cure him or her. Most logically, he missed it. As you know multiple myeloma is the most common malignant bone tumor and for that alone was hit hard in chiropractic school. Also it is one that can appear as "the ivory vertebrae" and has other tags such as the "pedicle sign", "winking owl" and the hallmark "punched out lesions" etc. I remember it well and especially remember Bence Jones proteinuria (protein electrophoresis for DX). There were multiple questions about it on the boards. Even with all that said I don't think that the chiropractic treatment did any harm and certainly didn't change the outcome (high mortality). To answer your question and considering these two misdiagnosed cases, I would still say chiropractors receive a very good education when it comes to potential neoplasm. Exspecially when it pertains to the spine.

back talk, which chiro school did you go to?

 

[rooster]

I feel compelled to comment. I have had several patients come in with back pain that had seen their MD first. They recieved nothing but pain meds that helped little to none. Usually, a careful history will begin to send up red flags. When I insisted they go back to their MD and demand further evaluation/tests, my suspicions, unfortunately, usually proved correct. The point being, I have seen many cancers, metasteses etc that the MDs had the opportunity to see first and missed. Neither profession is perfect. In the circumstances noted above, does it make any sense, or make it valid, to disregard and/or diss the entire medical profession? This only emphasizes the imperative importance of interprofessional cooperation and regard.

BTW- The spine is second only to the lung for metastasis. A fact that is drilled, drilled again. and drilled some more, into DCs.

 

[Science_Guy]

I feel compelled to comment. I have had several patients come in with back pain that had seen their MD first. They recieved nothing but pain meds that helped little to none. Usually, a careful history will begin to send up red flags. When I insisted they go back to their MD and demand further evaluation/tests, my suspicions, unfortunately, usually proved correct. The point being, I have seen many cancers, metasteses etc that the MDs had the opportunity to see first and missed. Neither profession is perfect. In the circumstances noted above, does it make any sense, or make it valid, to disregard and/or diss the entire medical profession? This only emphasizes the imperative importance of interprofessional cooperation and regard.

BTW- The spine is second only to the lung for metastasis. A fact that is drilled, drilled again. and drilled some more, into DCs.

Rooster, you are absolutely correct.....cancer is quite often misdiagnosed, or missed altogther by some MDs and DOs. And it won't be the last either. I also agree that both professions are not perfect. And yes, the spine (and other parts of the skelton) is quite often a target of tumor metastasis, although lung and liver metastasis are a little more common in many malignancies (especially GI cancers) due to their very high perfusion rates by systemic blood flow. Medical science is continually evolving, and medical practice is just that.....practice. However, the basic core of the question goes to training. What emphasis do chiro programs across the country put into recognizing a potential neoplasms, versus what many allopathic or osteopathic medical program would teach medical students? If all chiro programs are teaching students about identifying potential cancer cases, great! No better way to assure that the patient receives proper treatment. My concern is this......are there chiro programs emphasizing a global "subluxation" causal theory of disease, to the point of excluding the true pathology underlying a patient complaint.

 

[awdc]

Hi all,

Every now and then I like to poke my head into the chiro-related threads and it looks like its been busy lately. As a former DC myself, all I can say is that I am having less confidence in DC's as I progress further into my medical education as being adequately trained to provide "primary care." BackTalk has made solid comments regarding the education and scope of practice of chiropractors. My beef is that I just see too many chiros disregarding what they have been taught. Which brings up another point that I hope answers Science Guy's question. The difference between chiro students and med students in the way they are taught to identify cancer or any other significant pathology is seeing it. Med students will see the patients whereas most chiro students will not. The ins and outs of differential diagnosis can't simply be taught, it needs to be experienced. Unfortunately, many chiro schools in this country are not able to provide the necessary training and experiences that chiro students will remember and build upon. In short, I think many DC's become complacent about ruling out pathology because they never had enough experience of working with patients who have non-NMS or neoplastic conditions.

 

[BackTalk]

In short, I think many DC's become complacent about ruling out pathology because they never had enough experience of working with patients who have non-NMS or neoplastic conditions.

I agree.

 

[lawguil]

Hi all,

The difference between chiro students and med students in the way they are taught to identify cancer or any other significant pathology is seeing it. Med students will see the patients whereas most chiro students will not. The ins and outs of differential diagnosis can't simply be taught, it needs to be experienced. Unfortunately, many chiro schools in this country are not able to provide the necessary training and experiences that chiro students will remember and build upon.

Well said! This is why I believe there is strong argument against direct access for DC's, PT's, OT's, ATC's. The fact that a DO/MD may miss the symptoms/signs with respect to pathology doesn't eliminate the fact that the patient will likely follow up with the same MD/DO who will ultimately order diagnostic tests or refer to a specialist. There seems to be a 'checks and balances' system in place for the MD/DO/PA practice.

In my situation, once I finally saw the DO, he had me with another physician in 16 days after I saw him. I understand that many DC's would have referred me to a physician, but I would be curious how many DC's would try 6-8 weeks (or more) of treatment before referring a patient to an DO/MD if they to had a patient who presented signs of lymphoma or any other non-NMS conditions?