Choose my Elective!

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

What should I do a one month elective in?

  • Sports Medicine

    Votes: 3 10.3%
  • ENT/Ophth

    Votes: 8 27.6%
  • Ultrasound

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • Toxicology

    Votes: 6 20.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29

bulgethetwine

Membership Revoked
Removed
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
779
Reaction score
3
I need help -- from you senior residents and attendings, what should I devote my emergency medicine elective months to? I've no specific fellowship interest yet, so the usual, sensible advice of an elective in a relevant aspect of EM need not be bestowed. Feel free to add some comments and insights into your advice...
 
As much as I like toxicology, if you are really looking for a good, general, "all around" kind of EM elective, you can't beat U/S. Ultrasound is becoming, more and more, the diagnostic tool in the ED. The "magic seven" indications for ED U/S are more likely than not to expand, and the machines are getting better and better. I truly believe that, within the span of our careers, hand-held hi-res U/S will be used by every EP.

- H
 
bulgethetwine said:
I need help -- from you senior residents and attendings, what should I devote my emergency medicine elective months to? I've no specific fellowship interest yet, so the usual, sensible advice of an elective in a relevant aspect of EM need not be bestowed. Feel free to add some comments and insights into your advice...

Of the group you've offered in the poll, I'd go for ENT/eye. I'm not actually concerned about the ENT part, you can pick it up in the ED. Eye is a discipline with a very different set of diseases and a very different set of diagnostic tools. I think EPs need to be able to use a slit lamp and visualize the fundus with either a lens or a panoptic scope. They need to know the eye emergencies as well as the eye annoyances. People are much less able to tolerate a painful but minor condition in the eye than any other system. Therefore we see a lot of it. You can get these skills as well as the ability to write up an exam correctly in about two weeks of work.

On the US issue, I've got a really different take on US than FF. Over the ten years since it started to be available bed side, we've had a lot of back and forth on it at our shop. We're still divided in our enthusiasm. Anyway, this is what I think:

1. Getting adequate images and interpreting them is far more of an art and operator dependent than other forms of imaging. It takes U/S techs 1 year of full time work to get minimally competent at just creating the images. How many EPs are going to have that much time? How much could you learn in one month?
2. Surgeons and OBGs are not going to be willing to take patients to the OR on the basis of your US, unless the findings are obvious fluid on a FAST. For everything else they will require a confirmatory study on a permanent medium read by a radiologist. They may take unstable patients to the OR, but they are doing it for the instability, not the bedside views.
3. You are going to want the confirmatory studies to support your diagnosis most of the time, since you won't have a permanent record if you just use the bedside machine.
4. People don't talk about US of the globe much, even though the Eye guys have been doing it for many years. It's quick and for a non-eye doc is much easier than fundoscopic exam for finding a interocular foreign body or retinal detachment.
5. It's really useful in the middle of the night to be able to do a quick bedside on a lady with first trimester bleeding. If you can clearly see a viable IUP, you're done. The problem is there have been a fair number of tubal and cornual ectopics that were thought to be IUP. :scared:
6. There is a national movement to make diagnostic capabilities available around the clock. It's being driven by the errors movement and by the concept of equity. Radiology is feeling this more than any other group. In fact, I have an US available 20 feet from the ED 24/7. That will be the standard 10 years from now. When you've got this capability, you can even get expert views of the aorta and pericardial sac in a couple of minutes in the resucitation room with a first quality machine. If you practice in such an enviroment, why would you want to do it yourself? How much of a risk would be subjecting your patient to if you did not use the most expert people with the best machines?
7. There is lot of discussion of accreditation/local certification. We looked into it extensively a couple of years ago with the aim of determining if we could get residents who were interested certified during the program. The details are a whole other rant, but suffice it to say that to get either the AIUM physician cert or the RDMS tech cert is not going to happen within a 3 year curriculum. It might happen in a 4 year if you devoted all of your electives to US, otherwise it'll take a fellowship.

There is a tradition in EM that goes something like "If you guys aren't going to take care of it, I'll do it myself." I can remember doing my own filiforms and followers, DPLs, split-bronchial intubations, burr holes, etc. It was quicker, easier and far more fun than arguing with a cranky doc in the middle of the night. Whether it was the right thing to do is a different issue. That's how I feel about US by nonexperts.
 
ENT for sure. not an attending or resident, just a fourth year. i did an optho rotation for fourth year. it was great. i have used those tools that i gained during that rotation so many times. actually on one of my first away rotations in EM I had a pt with an eye complaint, had to use the slit lamp. the resident was asking me to show her how to use it b/c she hadn't had her ENT rotation yet. The other bonus, which was discussed by the brilliant BKN, was that the eye guys will tell you exactly what the want you to call them for. Sure we all know that optho doesn't want to get up at 2AM, but they will, without complaint, when they know that the person who is calling them is calling b/c the prob is something that optho should take care of. My optho doc taught me how to perform good slit lamps, remove foreign bodies, and most importantly WHEN TO CALL THE EYE GUY.

Tox is fun, usually a cush rotation at most places so if that's your gig, go for it. My eye rotation (which i thought was gonna be cush) was from 0730-1900 M-F. I guess I am done rambling. You really didn't want to hear from me anyway, I am only a fourth year.
 
BKN said:
On the US issue, I've got a really different take on US than FF. Over the ten years since it started to be available bed side, we've had a lot of back and forth on it at our shop. We're still divided in our enthusiasm. Anyway, this is what I think:

Thanks BKN, I never thought about U/S like that...

{thoughtful pause}

O.k., I'd like to change my poll response.

Go do tox because it is really cool!!! 👍

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Thanks BKN, I never thought about U/S like that...

{thoughtful pause}

O.k., I'd like to change my poll response.

Go do tox because it is really cool!!! 👍

- H
I'm gonna keep my vote U/S because I did it and I loved it. And for similar reasons BKN spoke against you doing it I will encourage you to. Namely you can, as he said, learn ED optho in 2 weeks. Odds are you will get it in your residency anywhere and can allways do an elective IF you feel you need to. That will be a decent sized IF.
As for U/S because it is a dynamic field in EM and indications are growing and receding on different fronts I think it would behoove you to have a baseline knowledge on day 1 of your residency that will position you better then your classmates to think about these practice issues with U/S and not just adopt whatever attitude your program has. If you train with peski (Dr Sierzinski) or any of the other EM U/S gurus out there, you will have undoubtedly a different perspective then if you go to a program that does not encourage U/S as much. Either way it would help to have the knowledge base to be proactive from day one and see how it will fit into your practice. While it is a more complicated issue, in a way the argument that you will need confirmatory studies anyway so why bother, seems to me like saying we are going to get an echo so why listen to the pts. chest with that stethescope or we are going to get a CXR so why listen to his lungs.

At least that's what I think. Of course I haven't done a residency yet so I could be wrong. 🙂
 
colforbinMD said:
Either way it would help to have the knowledge base to be proactive from day one and see how it will fit into your practice. While it is a more complicated issue, in a way the argument that you will need confirmatory studies anyway so why bother, seems to me like saying we are going to get an echo so why listen to the pts. chest with that stethescope or we are going to get a CXR so why listen to his lungs.

At least that's what I think. Of course I haven't done a residency yet so I could be wrong. 🙂

I don't want to turn this into a debate to the death, nor am I opposed to bedside US, I use it and enjoy doing it. But there are essential differences between the physical exam vs CXR and Echo and the bedside US vs formal US arguments. I may not do a CXR on the basis of the chest exam. I will rarely do an ECHO except when the cardiac exam is abnormal (or the patient has had a TIA). I almost never will avoid a formal US or CT on the basis of a bedside US. Exceptions: FAST for trauma or AAA, eye US for foreign body.

I would welcome an opposing view from Dr. Sierzinski. 🙂
 
Dude, I highly recommend doing a MICU month or any ICU month for that matter. You get more comfortable with sick patients, learn a ton and there is never a dull moment. Taking call actually is beneficial from a learning perspective, and you get a chance to do procedures (since most FP/IM residents dont care for them).

good luck
 
Responding to BKN's post about u/s, I am just a pre-med, but I see in the ED that I work in currently that u/s is HUGE in an area that he didn't mention too much, and that is procedure guidance. In a month, you can certainly learn how to place central lines safely, how to place IJ's under ultrasound, placing deep brachial lines via u/s, how to do ultrasound guided nerve blocks (publications on this coming soon). So there are things that you can learn in a month.
 
GiJoe said:
Dude, I highly recommend doing a MICU month or any ICU month for that matter. You get more comfortable with sick patients, learn a ton and there is never a dull moment. Taking call actually is beneficial from a learning perspective, and you get a chance to do procedures (since most FP/IM residents dont care for them).

good luck
Ditto. Had this been an option it would have been my vote.

As for u/s negateing formal studies compared to PE negating cxr or echo, I did say that it was obviously not as simple as that but when I hear it said it allways makes me think of that. I would add that the examples you use of FAST for AAA and FB r/o (though I would not limit it just to globe scans) are good examples but not to long ago they would have seemed like malpractice. That, to me, is one of the most exciting parts of U/S in the ED,the relatively dynamic nature of it in our practice.
 
Deleted accidental duplicate posting.
Inserted obligatory +pad+
 
GiJoe said:
Dude, I highly recommend doing a MICU month or any ICU month for that matter. You get more comfortable with sick patients, learn a ton and there is never a dull moment. Taking call actually is beneficial from a learning perspective, and you get a chance to do procedures (since most FP/IM residents dont care for them).

good luck

Folks, I appreciate the great advice. Including that which has come from the students who have done rotations. How very condescending of me to suggest that the discussion be restricted to residents and attendings! My apologies...

I think the ICU is something that I am extremely interested in. Certainly I knew coming into residency that I would be doing a lot of primary care/walk-in clinic-type acuity (I like to think I am an informed consumer) but I have days where I am just so disillusioned with the constant dribble of problems/chief complaints that I thought I was minimizing by avoiding a family medicine residency. I try to challenge myself to take every seemingly minor complaint as a learning experience and develop a full and robust differential (if for no other reason than I realize that as a resident I don't have the experience yet to minimize patients based on instinct) but some days...

I already do MICU/PICU/SICU at a senior level in my program. I'm thinking my electives are gonna be ENT/Ophtho + NICU + probably one other, possibly ultrasound.

Anyone got any experience with NICU as an off-service rotation?
 
bulgethetwine said:
I already do MICU/PICU/SICU at a senior level in my program. I'm thinking my electives are gonna be ENT/Ophtho + NICU + probably one other, possibly ultrasound.

Anyone got any experience with NICU as an off-service rotation?

I'm not sure that NICU would be all that relevant to EM. Yes, we will attend the occasional birth, but NICU kids tend to stay in the NICU until released. Many places require that if a NICU baby "bounces back" after discharge, they be admitted to the PICU (for ID reasons). If you are looking for newborn resus. experience (more relevant to EM, IMNSHO) I would see if I could arrange a rotation with Peds specifically working with the team covering OB.

- H
 
We do a NICU month in my residency. We mainly do the month to do neonatal intubations and resuscitations. On call we have a room in the OB area and respond to every high risk delivery (c-sections, meconium, etc). It is a good experience in resuscitating newborns. It will be pretty rare in your career that you will have to resuscitate a newborn in the ED, but the experience is similar to resuscitating any child. If all you were going to do in the NICU was round on the feeders and growers and do an occasional umbilical line, then I don't think it would be a worthwhile elective.

Working in the ICU is a great learning experience for EM residents, but most programs already have that built into their schedule. I would do ultrasound, optho, tox and then an international elective in that order. In my opinion, the point of electives is to fill in gaps in your education and knowledge.

Pelivar
 
FoughtFyr said:
I'm not sure that NICU would be all that relevant to EM. Yes, we will attend the occasional birth, but NICU kids tend to stay in the NICU until released. Many places require that if a NICU baby "bounces back" after discharge, they be admitted to the PICU (for ID reasons). If you are looking for newborn resus. experience (more relevant to EM, IMNSHO) I would see if I could arrange a rotation with Peds specifically working with the team covering OB.

- H


Sorry, I meant "neurological" ICU as opposed to neonatal.
 
BKN said:
Of the group you've offered in the poll, I'd go for ENT/eye. I'm not actually concerned about the ENT part, you can pick it up in the ED. Eye is a discipline with a very different set of diseases and a very different set of diagnostic tools. I think EPs need to be able to use a slit lamp and visualize the fundus with either a lens or a panoptic scope. They need to know the eye emergencies as well as the eye annoyances. People are much less able to tolerate a painful but minor condition in the eye than any other system. Therefore we see a lot of it. You can get these skills as well as the ability to write up an exam correctly in about two weeks of work.

On the US issue, I've got a really different take on US than FF. Over the ten years since it started to be available bed side, we've had a lot of back and forth on it at our shop. We're still divided in our enthusiasm. Anyway, this is what I think:

1. Getting adequate images and interpreting them is far more of an art and operator dependent than other forms of imaging. It takes U/S techs 1 year of full time work to get minimally competent at just creating the images. How many EPs are going to have that much time? How much could you learn in one month?
2. Surgeons and OBGs are not going to be willing to take patients to the OR on the basis of your US, unless the findings are obvious fluid on a FAST. For everything else they will require a confirmatory study on a permanent medium read by a radiologist. They may take unstable patients to the OR, but they are doing it for the instability, not the bedside views.
3. You are going to want the confirmatory studies to support your diagnosis most of the time, since you won't have a permanent record if you just use the bedside machine.
4. People don't talk about US of the globe much, even though the Eye guys have been doing it for many years. It's quick and for a non-eye doc is much easier than fundoscopic exam for finding a interocular foreign body or retinal detachment.
5. It's really useful in the middle of the night to be able to do a quick bedside on a lady with first trimester bleeding. If you can clearly see a viable IUP, you're done. The problem is there have been a fair number of tubal and cornual ectopics that were thought to be IUP. :scared:
6. There is a national movement to make diagnostic capabilities available around the clock. It's being driven by the errors movement and by the concept of equity. Radiology is feeling this more than any other group. In fact, I have an US available 20 feet from the ED 24/7. That will be the standard 10 years from now. When you've got this capability, you can even get expert views of the aorta and pericardial sac in a couple of minutes in the resucitation room with a first quality machine. If you practice in such an enviroment, why would you want to do it yourself? How much of a risk would be subjecting your patient to if you did not use the most expert people with the best machines?
7. There is lot of discussion of accreditation/local certification. We looked into it extensively a couple of years ago with the aim of determining if we could get residents who were interested certified during the program. The details are a whole other rant, but suffice it to say that to get either the AIUM physician cert or the RDMS tech cert is not going to happen within a 3 year curriculum. It might happen in a 4 year if you devoted all of your electives to US, otherwise it'll take a fellowship.

There is a tradition in EM that goes something like "If you guys aren't going to take care of it, I'll do it myself." I can remember doing my own filiforms and followers, DPLs, split-bronchial intubations, burr holes, etc. It was quicker, easier and far more fun than arguing with a cranky doc in the middle of the night. Whether it was the right thing to do is a different issue. That's how I feel about US by nonexperts.




1. There is a tremendous amount to learn in one month of doing ultrasound. But, the one month will also serve as a framework for your future use of ultrasound. Remember that the sonographers who spend at least a year obtaining images do full ultrasound examinations. The bedside ultrasound examinations that Emergency Medicine Physicians typically do are meant to answer a specific question.
2. With hospital credentialing, and when you demonstrate competency, there will be surgeons and obstetricians who are willing to take patients to the OR based on your findings. It does not come automatically; however, it does come with time.
3. In regards to the permanent medium, many places are now storing their ultrasound on either VHS or DVD for permanent storage and QA review. Furthermore, there is now the ability to send images wirelessly from ultrasound machines to a PACS system and hence have permanent storage of the images.
4. Ocular ultrasound is very beneficial. Besides the retinal detachment and foreign body localization, you can also interrogate the retinal aretery and vein for flow and also measure the width of the optic nerve sheath which should correlate well with intracranial pressure
5. Seeing a viable IUP does make things very easy as there have been plenty of studies showing the significant decrease in time patients spend in the ED by having ED bedside US. However, there are also plenty of physicians who feel comfortable sending patients home if they do not see an IUP. With no fluid in the cul-de-sac, and if you can clearly see both ovaries well, many will feel comfortable sending patients out with instructions that they need to follow-up in 48 hrs for repeat HCG. When radiology scans the patient and sees the same thing, they will essentially report that findings may be missed AB, non-visualized ectopic or early IUP and follow-up is recommended. I will not deny that there have been Emergency Physicians that have missed ectopics; however, there have also been radiologists that have..especailly when at some institutions, there is a 2nd year radiology resident performing and interpreting the US in the middle of the night.
6. Many of the people I have spoken to have actually indicated that radiology is not really doing a lot of US anymore. The reimbursement is not nearly as good as MRI and CT and those are so readily available. I really dispute the fact that there is a movement to have radiology available 24/7 for US as I have really seen this being moved away from recently. It is hard to get techs to be on call 24/7. And, many of the bedside US machines are getting much higher quality now.
7. The whole certification vs. credentialing thing needs to be touched upon. Certification typically is more of a global thing whereas credentialing is a hospital based policy. Many hospitals are now having specific credentialing guidelines for Emergency Medicine Ultrsound.

In summary, I think that an elective at the right place in Emergency Medicine Ultrasound will be very beneficial. It will allow you to start to obtain images and gain an understanding of emergency medicine ultrasound which will assist you when you are in the department during your regular months. Yes, it is nice to be able to confirm an IUP real quickly, but it is also nice to be able to use US to place a peripheral IV so patients are not relegated to central lines. It is nice to be able to look at various parts of the body (heart, IVC, abdomen) in a hypotensive patient, it is nice to pull out the US in a cardiac arrest situation to see if there is cardiac standstill. There was a recent study in Academic Emergency Medicine indicating that US is very beneficial from differentiating cellulitis vs. abscess and hopefully preventing unnecessary I and Ds. And, having personally used it to differentiate peritonsillar cellulitis vs. peritonsillar abscess and then being able to aspirate the abscess under US guidance, I know that the patients appreciated not being unnecessarily stuck.

So, I vote for US..but then again, that is my bias.
 
Dr Morrison! Welcome to the forum! I was expecting a post from Dr Sierzenski any time on this thread but having two U/S directors on the board is GREAT (having any and all program faculty on the board is great) so thanks for weighing in on this discussion. I met you a few times at Einstein and am happy to see you here. In 10 days I might be PMing you to let you know I am headed your way 🙂 I just had two questions about your post
You said:
also measure the width of the optic nerve sheath which should correlate well with intracranial pressure

I know this is being studied in several places but my understanding was there has yet to be a standardized approach,( i.e. one eye vs. avg of both and at what depth do you measure the width) which has been proven to correlate with ICP.

Number two is the peristonsillar abcess v. cellulitis issue. My question is, how did you convince the patient to let you stick the endocavitary probe in his throat? F/U question.... did you take a picture of the procedure for the pt.s frriends 😛
 
Top