Choosing a school

[pharmdtobee333]

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Hi all,

I've been accepted to UIllinois Chicago, UMaryland Baltimore, and UNC Chapel Hill. All are out of state schools and around the same in terms of tuition. I had to do remote interviews for all of these besides UIC because of COVID. Therefore, it has been especially hard for me to get a feel for these schools and in making a decision. I haven't decided whether I want to do clinical, academic research, or industry. I know match rates would be important for clinical and joint PhD programs important for academic research. Other than that I'm not really sure what to consider. Would UIC and UMaryland's placement in cities be important to look at for connections and resources? I would rather live in Chicago or Baltimore, but don't know how much UNC's reputation would help me in future career paths. Any info anyone has on these programs or general advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[297point1]

I would rather live in Chicago or Baltimore,

As far as the cities themselves go: Unless you have a relative who lives in Baltimore and you can live there for free or you are a die-hard Orioles fan, the other two should float to the top of your list. Chicago and Chapel Hill are great places for a 20-something to live. Baltimore...ehh. Go watch The Wire.

 

[acslater99]

I’d choose between UNC & UIC. Since they’re all relatively close in tuition, the next thing to look at is how good is the area in which you’ll be living plus living costs. Personally, I’d go with UNC.

 

[zona2016]

UNC seems better and I think they can convert you to instate tuition after a year I think. Honestly, UNC is right in the research triangle with a lot of pharmaceutical companies in the area. But if industry doesn't interest you, UIC might be better.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

I would turn them down and go to med school.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would strongly urge you to reconsider going to pharmacy school. The job market is terrible and getting worse by the year. You will likely end up with a ton of student debt and have a hard time finding a job to pay off your loans.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

As a UNC grad who came from out of state, the choice is yours. UNC will offer the perks of top ranked/skilled professors, the ability to get in state tuition after PY1 year, great rotations with quality preceptors, and most importantly the network. I can't stress enough how the network itself has worked wonders for me, even as a PGY1 resident going into next steps.

I would, however, think long and hard about next steps if this is what you choose. Pharmacy is NOT easy right now, the struggle is real for jobs (there are even people at my large academic medical center still looking) and you are going to come out with a TON of debt if you don't manage correctly. I'm living at home now and I'll have my second loan paid off but I still have some major ways to go.

I'd go and carefully, seriously CAREFULLY consider going into this profession right now. If you bulldoze ahead without truly weighing everything, you are going to regret it.

 

[Seriously Serious]

As a UNC grad who came from out of state, the choice is yours. UNC will offer the perks of top ranked/skilled professors, the ability to get in state tuition after PY1 year, great rotations with quality preceptors, and most importantly the network. I can't stress enough how the network itself has worked wonders for me, even as a PGY1 resident going into next steps.

I would, however, think long and hard about next steps if this is what you choose. Pharmacy is NOT easy right now, the struggle is real for jobs (there are even people at my large academic medical center still looking) and you are going to come out with a TON of debt if you don't manage correctly. I'm living at home now and I'll have my second loan paid off but I still have some major ways to go.

I'd go and carefully, seriously CAREFULLY consider going into this profession right now. If you bulldoze ahead without truly weighing everything, you are going to regret it.

I second this statement. You really need to consider the fact that you are statistically more likely to be unemployed than landing a job.

Pharmacists

Pharmacists dispense prescription medications and provide information to patients about the drugs and their use.

www.bls.gov

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

OP: I'm undecided between clinical, academic research and industry.

Reality: 80% of pharmacist jobs are in retail, and the remaining 20% of jobs require additional postgraduate training to get. 3-5 years for a PhD to do research or 1-2 years of residency/fellowship (which less than 50% of students will get) to meet the baseline qualification to even apply for jobs. Not to mention that there won't even be jobs to apply to, and by the time OP graduates a PGY-3 will be the new standard for doing any sort of "clinical" work.

You're going to be in for a rude awakening if you choose to go to pharmacy school in this day and age.

 

[Timbo]

UNC by far is the best school out of the three. Here are their stats for Class of 2019:

	naplex pass rate (%)	residency placement (%)	unemployment rate (%)
university of illinois chicago	85.16​	63​	32​
university of maryland baltimore	84.62​	76​	33​
university of north carolina chapel hill	93.7​	88​	14.8​

As reference national NAPLEX pass rate is 86.74%, national residency PGY1 match rate is 64.3%, average national unemployment rate (for all of jobs) is 3.6% in 2019. As you can see all schools fare pretty well as far as NAPLEX pass rate and residency placement, however what kills University of Illinois and University of Maryland is their unemployment which is almost 10 times the national average (despite these being graduates with doctorate degrees). Although I would say UNC's unemployment rate of 14.8% is still pretty bad. For reference, when I graduated a few years ago, my class had an employment rate of over 90% (source)

Here are links for my references:
https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/NAPLEX-Pass-Rates-2019.pdf
https://natmatch.com/ashprmp/stats/2019schlstats-pgy1.pdf
PHARMACY CLASS OF 2019a FAST FACTS
https://www.pharmacy.umaryland.edu/media/SOP/wwwpharmacyumarylandedu/about/info/factsheet.pdf
Pharm.D. Students - UNC Eshelman School of Pharmacy

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

UNC by far is the best school out of the three. Here are their stats for Class of 2019:

	naplex pass rate (%)	residency placement (%)	unemployment rate (%)
university of illinois chicago	85.16​	63​	32​
university of maryland baltimore	84.62​	76​	33​
university of north carolina chapel hill	93.7​	88​	14.8​

As reference national NAPLEX pass rate is 86.74%, national residency PGY1 match rate is 64.3%, average national unemployment rate (for all of jobs) is 3.6% in 2019. As you can see all schools fare pretty well as far as NAPLEX pass rate and residency placement, however what kills University of Illinois and University of Maryland is their unemployment which is almost 10 times the national average (despite these being graduates with doctorate degrees). Although I would say UNC's unemployment rate of 14.8% is still pretty bad. For reference, when I graduated a few years ago, my class had an employment rate of over 90%.

Here are links for my references:
https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/NAPLEX-Pass-Rates-2019.pdf
https://natmatch.com/ashprmp/stats/2019schlstats-pgy1.pdf
PHARMACY CLASS OF 2019a FAST FACTS
https://www.pharmacy.umaryland.edu/media/SOP/wwwpharmacyumarylandedu/about/info/factsheet.pdf
Pharm.D. Students - UNC Eshelman School of Pharmacy

Since most schools consider residency placement as "employment," the adjusted unemployment numbers after those grads do residency and can't find jobs afterwards is probably double that at the time of graduation.

 

[mentos]

Since most schools consider residency placement as "employment," the adjusted unemployment numbers after those grads do residency and can't find jobs afterwards is probably double that at the time of graduation.

Plus part time and per diem. The actual numbers for full time 40 hours per week must be very low.

 

[johnpharm01]

Hi all,

I've been accepted to UIllinois Chicago, UMaryland Baltimore, and UNC Chapel Hill. All are out of state schools and around the same in terms of tuition. I had to do remote interviews for all of these besides UIC because of COVID. Therefore, it has been especially hard for me to get a feel for these schools and in making a decision. I haven't decided whether I want to do clinical, academic research, or industry. I know match rates would be important for clinical and joint PhD programs important for academic research. Other than that I'm not really sure what to consider. Would UIC and UMaryland's placement in cities be important to look at for connections and resources? I would rather live in Chicago or Baltimore, but don't know how much UNC's reputation would help me in future career paths. Any info anyone has on these programs or general advice is greatly appreciated!

UIC's campus is located on the west side of Chicago blocks from the 290 interstate. On the other side of the interstate is the bulls stadium. This part of Chicago is not the safest but the campus places telephones with blue lights on the tops. It's in the medical center area so rush, cook county and uih hospitals are all with walking distance. Dorms are expensive close housing is more expensive parking difficult. No movie theaters nearby, two reasonably close grocery stores. Greek town and campus bars close. Good public transportation blue line (el) is directly behind cop and can take you downtown to connect you to Metra trains or lines to downtown Chicago cubs games or either airport (long trip better by car) buses also available. Good luck.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Since most schools consider residency placement as "employment," the adjusted unemployment numbers after those grads do residency and can't find jobs afterwards is probably double that at the time of graduation.

I'd say as a person who came out of that most recent graduate class, I don't know anyone who currently has not come out and either secured a job for themselves or is not in residency. Again, the biggest thing that helped many of the new grads who didn't know what jobs they were getting when leaving unemployed post pharmacy school was the network.

One of my friends used his to get a job in industry quickly and I know he's counted under the part of the unemployed statistic listed on the website. Of those 20 people at least 5 of them had secured jobs that I personally talked to, seeing as we took that survey in May right before our post-clerkship day.

Not going to say that they don't throw all the fellowship and residency people together for the employment statistic but I don't know anyone in my class currently who is out of work either.

 

[Timbo]

I'd say as a person who came out of that most recent graduate class, I don't know anyone who currently has not come out and either secured a job for themselves or is not in residency. Again, the biggest thing that helped many of the new grads who didn't know what jobs they were getting when leaving unemployed post pharmacy school was the network.

One of my friends used his to get a job in industry quickly and I know he's counted under the part of the unemployed statistic listed on the website. Of those 20 people at least 5 of them had secured jobs that I personally talked to, seeing as we took that survey in May right before our post-clerkship day.

Not going to say that they don't throw all the fellowship and residency people together for the employment statistic but I don't know anyone in my class currently who is out of work either.

Has it always been this way at UNC, where many graduate unemployed? I only graduated 4 years ago, but literally almost everyone in my class had jobs lined up months before graduation.

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Has it always been this way at UNC, where many graduate unemployed? I only graduated 4 years ago, but literally almost everyone in my class had jobs lined up months before graduation.

I know a few people I was close to last year had a tough time, but all of them were employed by the following January. For those people it really depended. Some it was just reputation aka I think word got around quick they were a pain and it ended up taking them months to find things. Others it was about trying to get licensed in the state they finally settled in.

And again by saying many you've got maybe 15 out of a class of 135 people. I can really only speak to the last 2 years honestly, because those are the individuals I was around and knew about.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I know a few people I was close to last year had a tough time, but all of them were employed by the following January. For those people it really depended. Some it was just reputation aka I think word got around quick they were a pain and it ended up taking them months to find things. Others it was about trying to get licensed in the state they finally settled in.

And again by saying many you've got maybe 15 out of a class of 135 people. I can really only speak to the last 2 years honestly, because those are the individuals I was around and knew about.

Just out of curiosity, did any of your classmates manage to find hospital jobs without completing a residency first?

 

[AC3_PharmD]

Just out of curiosity, did any of your classmates manage to find hospital jobs without completing a residency first?

Yep! One of them didn't match and got one, another got one in her home state (don't know quite how she finagled it, but she did). Best friend actually dropped out of her PGY1 residency and found a great hospital job in < 2 months. Another of my best friends graduated late, ended up being in the right place at the right time, and is now doing ambulatory care for HIV + mental health at multiple clinics in the south. Not quite hospital but still very impressive. It can be done and has been done.

I will say when I thought I wasn't going to match because I only had 1 interview, I reached out to the director of pharmacy at my job who was going to "make sure I stayed" if that's what I wanted/depending on my results after the match. I know you're concerned about what's next and so I'm going to keep harping on this: you have to make your own opportunities, no one is going to hand them to you. Reach out to your network (it's probably larger than you think), get in contact with people and let them know you're out looking. If people think highly of you and your work ethic they'll go the extra mile to make sure they work on your behalf.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Yep! One of them didn't match and got one, another got one in her home state (don't know quite how she finagled it, but she did). Best friend actually dropped out of her PGY1 residency and found a great hospital job in < 2 months. Another of my best friends graduated late, ended up being in the right place at the right time, and is now doing ambulatory care for HIV + mental health at multiple clinics in the south. Not quite hospital but still very impressive. It can be done and has been done.

I will say when I thought I wasn't going to match because I only had 1 interview, I reached out to the director of pharmacy at my job who was going to "make sure I stayed" if that's what I wanted/depending on my results after the match. I know you're concerned about what's next and so I'm going to keep harping on this: you have to make your own opportunities, no one is going to hand them to you. Reach out to your network (it's probably larger than you think), get in contact with people and let them know you're out looking. If people think highly of you and your work ethic they'll go the extra mile to make sure they work on your behalf.

What really sucks about my particular situation is that even after getting in touch with basically literally everyone in my network, I still don't have any solid leads to go on as far as getting a hospital job is concerned.

I think part of the issue is that a majority of my rotations were completed at a federal hospital in my area, and I was told by my preceptors that it's notoriously hard to get a job there because of the rules they have to follow regarding veteran hiring preferences, etc.

I had also been working as an intern in until this past December when me and the other interns were fired (including one who had been working for the hospital system for ~10 years as a tech prior to going to pharmacy school). We were all told that we couldn't even be considered for part-time pharmacists because of the hospital network's recently implemented policy of hiring only residency-trained pharmacists ("the market supports this policy" is their primary justification for the policy). I've also stayed in touch with the pharmacists I used to work with and have asked them if they know of any leads at all as far as potential job opportunities go, but nobody knows of anything. An intern who graduated in 2019 is still unemployed and is unable to move because of her husband's job here.

So believe me, I know what you mean when you say that you have to make/find your own opportunities, but at the same time, it's kind of frustrating because - and maybe this isn't actually the case - but people seem to be implying that I'm not willing to do that, even though I worked as an intern, accommodated literally every last-minute/emergency work request, made solid connections, have kept in touch with people, have made it clear to them that I'm flexible when it comes to work schedule, etc., and yet I have zero job leads because there simply isn't anything out there (at least in this region, apparently). It's encouraging to hear that your classmates were able to get jobs lined up, but at the same time, isn't it possible that the reason someone isn't finding a job is because the job market is simply oversaturated? Or does it absolutely have to be because of some sort of flaw with myself on a personal or professional level or because of a bad impression that I *must* have made during rotations or when working at my intern job (I.e., the "it's just you" line of reasoning)?

 

[AC3_PharmD]

What really sucks about my particular situation is that even after getting in touch with basically literally everyone in my network, I still don't have any solid leads to go on as far as getting a hospital job is concerned.

I think part of the issue is that a majority of my rotations were completed at a federal hospital in my area, and I was told by my preceptors that it's notoriously hard to get a job there because of the rules they have to follow regarding veteran hiring preferences, etc.

I had also been working as an intern in until this past December when me and the other interns were fired (including one who had been working for the hospital system for ~10 years as a tech prior to going to pharmacy school). We were all told that we couldn't even be considered for part-time pharmacists because of the hospital network's recently implemented policy of hiring only residency-trained pharmacists ("the market supports this policy" is their primary justification for the policy). I've also stayed in touch with the pharmacists I used to work with and have asked them if they know of any leads at all as far as potential job opportunities go, but nobody knows of anything. An intern who graduated in 2019 is still unemployed and is unable to move because of her husband's job here.

So believe me, I know what you mean when you say that you have to make/find your own opportunities, but at the same time, it's kind of frustrating because - and maybe this isn't actually the case - but people seem to be implying that I'm not willing to do that, even though I worked as an intern, accommodated literally every last-minute/emergency work request, made solid connections, have kept in touch with people, have made it clear to them that I'm flexible when it comes to work schedule, etc., and yet I have zero job leads because there simply isn't anything out there (at least in this region, apparently). It's encouraging to hear that your classmates were able to get jobs lined up, but at the same time, isn't it possible that the reason someone isn't finding a job is because the job market is simply oversaturated? Or does it absolutely have to be because of some sort of flaw with myself on a personal or professional level or because of a bad impression that I *must* have made during rotations or when working at my intern job (I.e., the "it's just you" line of reasoning)?

Just so we don't hijack this thread (cause that seems to happen a lot!) I'll PM you.

 

[Timbo]

What really sucks about my particular situation is that even after getting in touch with basically literally everyone in my network, I still don't have any solid leads to go on as far as getting a hospital job is concerned.

I think part of the issue is that a majority of my rotations were completed at a federal hospital in my area, and I was told by my preceptors that it's notoriously hard to get a job there because of the rules they have to follow regarding veteran hiring preferences, etc.

I had also been working as an intern in until this past December when me and the other interns were fired (including one who had been working for the hospital system for ~10 years as a tech prior to going to pharmacy school). We were all told that we couldn't even be considered for part-time pharmacists because of the hospital network's recently implemented policy of hiring only residency-trained pharmacists ("the market supports this policy" is their primary justification for the policy). I've also stayed in touch with the pharmacists I used to work with and have asked them if they know of any leads at all as far as potential job opportunities go, but nobody knows of anything. An intern who graduated in 2019 is still unemployed and is unable to move because of her husband's job here.

So believe me, I know what you mean when you say that you have to make/find your own opportunities, but at the same time, it's kind of frustrating because - and maybe this isn't actually the case - but people seem to be implying that I'm not willing to do that, even though I worked as an intern, accommodated literally every last-minute/emergency work request, made solid connections, have kept in touch with people, have made it clear to them that I'm flexible when it comes to work schedule, etc., and yet I have zero job leads because there simply isn't anything out there (at least in this region, apparently). It's encouraging to hear that your classmates were able to get jobs lined up, but at the same time, isn't it possible that the reason someone isn't finding a job is because the job market is simply oversaturated? Or does it absolutely have to be because of some sort of flaw with myself on a personal or professional level or because of a bad impression that I *must* have made during rotations or when working at my intern job (I.e., the "it's just you" line of reasoning)?

This is definitely the case at my health system. In the past year, we made residency a requirement for any of our hospital position even if it's just staffing. All applications must be filtered through HR so you won't make the cut if you don't have residency even if we'd like to hire you.

 

[Hedgehog32]

This is definitely the case at my health system. In the past year, we made residency a requirement for any of our hospital position even if it's just staffing. All applications must be filtered through HR so you won't make the cut if you don't have residency even if we'd like to hire you.

It's like the DOP of my hospital network told me: if they can't even offer the majority of their residents jobs post-residency, then how can they justify hiring on non-residency-trained pharmacists, even for PRN positions?

BTW and just curious, would your health system consider hiring a pharmacist with a year or two of experience for a staffing system? Or would they prefer to take a new residency graduate over an experienced non-residency graduate?

 

[BidingMyTime]

Well, if you are insistent on going to pharmacy school (as other posters have said, if you are smart you will reconsider unless you are able to go without any debt)....but that said, where do you intend to practice. I think all 3 of these schools probably have a good reputation, but in the error of fly-by-night-pharmacy schools, employers are more likely to go with the school that they are are familiar.

IE, if you are looking for a job in Chicago, you will more likely be hired if you are a UIC graduate, then if you are UNC graduate. If you are looking for a job in North Carolina, then the opposite will be true.

So, if you have an idea where you plan to work and live in the future, all else being equal, pick the reputable school that is closest to that area.

 

[Sine Cura]

So believe me, I know what you mean when you say that you have to make/find your own opportunities, but at the same time, it's kind of frustrating because - and maybe this isn't actually the case - but people seem to be implying that I'm not willing to do that, even though I worked as an intern, accommodated literally every last-minute/emergency work request, made solid connections, have kept in touch with people, have made it clear to them that I'm flexible when it comes to work schedule, etc., and yet I have zero job leads because there simply isn't anything out there (at least in this region, apparently).

Because it makes them feel better about themselves

 

[deleted562805]

I would turn them down and go to med school.

Or PA school as a second option if you are rejected by USMD. CS is the best option right now if you like coding and programming

 

[yllo$3489]

I've been accepted to UIllinois Chicago, UMaryland Baltimore, and UNC Chapel Hill. All are out of state schools and around the same in terms of tuition. I had to do remote interviews for all of these besides UIC because of COVID. Therefore, it has been especially hard for me to get a feel for these schools and in making a decision. I haven't decided whether I want to do clinical, academic research, or industry. I know match rates would be important for clinical and joint PhD programs important for academic research. Other than that I'm not really sure what to consider. Would UIC and UMaryland's placement in cities be important to look at for connections and resources? I would rather live in Chicago or Baltimore, but don't know how much UNC's reputation would help me in future career paths. Any info anyone has on these programs or general advice is greatly appreciated!

@pharmdtobee333 What was the calculations assessment like for UMB? I recently got an interview from UMaryland-Baltimore, and I wanted to see if I could prepare for that part of the interview as I am preparing for the faculty and student interviews. Thanks!