CL Psychiatry

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visceral0775

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Hello,

Can anyone can give more details on consult-liaison psych? For example, is a fellowship absolutely required to do it? I assume so but not 100%. How competitive are these positions to obtain as an attending?
Thanks!

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No it is not required to do a fellowship. Most people who do this work in the real world are not fellowship trained. Many of these fellowships go unfilled and most people to who complete C-L fellowships are IMGs looking to kill a year or train at a more prestigious institution than where they did residency. Many academic centers will prefer people who are board certified in consultation-liaison psychiatry but as that pool is small it is not absolutely necessary. community hospitals are unlikely to care about whether you are certified/fellowship trained in this area. If you think you might want to be a C-L fellowship director or director of a C-L Psychiatry division at an academic medical center, it is probably a good idea to do the fellowship. If not, then it may not matter. If you do a fellowship, make sure it is somewhere good where you get broad exposure to both inpatient and outpatient consults including transplantation psychiatry, psycho-oncology, neuropsychiatry, HIV psychiatry, perinatal psychiatry, integrated care, possibly smaller fields like cardiac psychiatry etc.

positions that are 100% inpatient consult are unusual and often lower paid. Much of the work of CL services is not billable. On average about 40% of the work is compensated by insurers; the remainder is not. This can vary from institution to institution. At my institution, only about 20% of our work on C-L is reimbursed on what we bill. What this means is you should only accept these jobs on a salaried basis (or if an independent contractor, for an hourly rate or per consult seen) and never based on collections or RVUs. Even if you were paid on RVUs billed and not collected, you would still lose out, as we often spend longer seeing fewer patients, providing liaison services, educating nursing staff, discussing cases with risk management etc, so the volume is lower than in inpatient or outpatient. Most commonly, people combine C-L with outpatient psychiatry, outpatient C-L, inpatient, research, teaching etc.
 
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No it is not required to do a fellowship. Most people who do this work in the real world are not fellowship trained. Many of these fellowships go unfilled and most people to who complete C-L fellowships are IMGs looking to kill a year or train at a more prestigious institution than where they did residency. Many academic centers will prefer people who are board certified in consultation-liaison psychiatry but as that pool is small it is not absolutely necessary. community hospitals are unlikely to care about whether you are certified/fellowship trained in this area. If you think you might want to be a C-L fellowship director or director of a C-L Psychiatry division at an academic medical center, it is probably a good idea to do the fellowship. If not, then it may not matter. If you do a fellowship, make sure it is somewhere good where you get broad exposure to both inpatient and outpatient consults including transplantation psychiatry, psycho-oncology, neuropsychiatry, HIV psychiatry, perinatal psychiatry, integrated care, possibly smaller fields like cardiac psychiatry etc.

positions that are 100% inpatient consult are unusual and often lower paid. Much of the work of CL services is not billable. On average about 40% of the work is compensated by insurers; the remainder is not. This can vary from institution to institution. At my institution, only about 20% of our work on C-L is reimbursed on what we bill. What this means is you should only accept these jobs on a salaried basis (or if an independent contractor, for an hourly rate or per consult seen) and never based on collections or RVUs. Even if you were paid on RVUs billed and not collected, you would still lose out, as we often spend longer seeing fewer patients, providing liaison services, educating nursing staff, discussing cases with risk management etc, so the volume is lower than in inpatient or outpatient. Most commonly, people combine C-L with outpatient psychiatry, outpatient C-L, inpatient, research, teaching etc.
Great! Thank you for all of the information-it is very helpful!
 
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Someone on these forums once said if you're going to do a fellowship in CL, do it at the top institutions. Otherwise, it isn't worth it unless you want to be a CL director at an academic center. Go with that. A fellowship at top places will teach you new things, expose you to more zebras, let you do research if you want, or just plain open doors if you want to do CL. A fellowship at a community hospital will likely only help in that you can then be CL-boarded, but the things you'll see are likely the things you saw during residency, so it in terms of knowledge base, it is unlikely to help (unless you didn't learn much in residency).
 
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Someone on these forums once said if you're going to do a fellowship in CL, do it at the top institutions. Otherwise, it isn't worth it unless you want to be a CL director at an academic center. Go with that. A fellowship at top places will teach you new things, expose you to more zebras, let you do research if you want, or just plain open doors if you want to do CL. A fellowship at a community hospital will likely only help in that you can then be CL-boarded, but the things you'll see are likely the things you saw during residency, so it in terms of knowledge base, it is unlikely to help (unless you didn't learn much in residency).
So essentially don't bother with a fellowship unless you want to be a director at an academic center? What about if I am interested in CL at an academic center just as a regular attending?
 
So essentially don't bother with a fellowship unless you want to be a director at an academic center? What about if I am interested in CL at an academic center just as a regular attending?

Read my post again. I specifically said "A fellowship at top places will teach you new things, expose you to more zebras, let you do research if you want, or just plain open doors if you want to do CL."
 
The "more prestigious university" thing has some merit to it and I'm not talking prestige but quality.

Where I did residency more than half the attendings in hindsight weren't that good. I did fellowship at U of Cincinnati where the overwhelming majority were phenomenal and you regularly had good exposure with nationally-recognized doctors. Many of those same attendings that taught me in residency wouldn't have made it at U of C.

E.g. a guy is on Depakote his body temperature drops to 92F and then a nationally renown psychiatrist in the department is called in, starts talking about it as if he had all the information in front of him reading it off of a paper when in fact he's talking about it off of his own memory, stating that Depakote could cause this problem although it's extremely rare, made sure the temperature was taken at least 5 times from different instruments, takes the guy off of Depakote, the guy gets better within 2 days and warned us had it continued to drop his body temperature might've never reached homeostasis again because lower body Ts could permanently damage the brain's ability to regulate T. The entire time this doctor is being very professional, interactive, and personable with all of the staff members.

Had this been one of my attendings from residency they likely would've just said "this isn't psych" and walked away from the situation putting about 10 seconds into his/her decision making. Then when the IM doctor would come in not work with that doctor in trying to solve the problem and pulled some type of attitude.

It upped my game and taught me things I wouldn't have just gotten working straight out of residency. In hindsight I wouldn't even recommend where I did residency vs other places (although it was more than 10 years ago, things change) if it was of the same quality while back in the day I thought it was a good program. Many people have the potential to think in much bigger and better paradigms but need to see it exhibited by others before you can even consider this as a possibility to mentally enter.
 
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The "more prestigious university" thing has some merit to it and I'm not talking prestige but quality.

Where I did residency more than half the attendings in hindsight weren't that good. I did fellowship at U of Cincinnati where the overwhelming majority were phenomenal and you regularly had good exposure with nationally-recognized doctors. Many of those same attendings that taught me in residency wouldn't have made it at U of C.

E.g. a guy is on Depakote his body temperature drops to 92F and then a nationally renown psychiatrist in the department is called in, starts talking about it as if he had all the information in front of him reading it off of a paper when in fact he's talking about it off of his own memory, stating that Depakote could cause this problem although it's extremely rare, made sure the temperature was taken at least 5 times from different instruments, takes the guy off of Depakote, the guy gets better within 2 days and warned us had it continued to drop his body temperature might've never reached homeostasis again because lower body Ts could permanently damage the brain's ability to regulate T. The entire time this doctor is being very professional, interactive, and personable with all of the staff members.

Had this been one of my attendings from residency they likely would've just said "this isn't psych" and walked away from the situation putting about 10 seconds into his/her decision making. Then when the IM doctor would come in not work with that doctor in trying to solve the problem and pulled some type of attitude.

It upped my game and taught me things I wouldn't have just gotten working straight out of residency. In hindsight I wouldn't even recommend where I did residency vs other places (although it was more than 10 years ago, things change) if it was of the same quality while back in the day I thought it was a good program. Many people have the potential to think in much bigger and better paradigms but need to see it exhibited by others before you can even consider this as a possibility to mentally enter.

So much this!!

Also, thanks for teaching me something new @whopper
 
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Definitely concur with looking for a salaried position. This is not something you want to be monitored for RVUs on because most of your work will be providing supportive psychotherapy to the primary medical/surgical teams. You can't bill for what that effort is worth. And no...CL fellowship trained people in this are quite rare and usually at academic centers. DEFINITELY not required and will not help your pay.
 
positions that are 100% inpatient consult are unusual and often lower paid. Much of the work of CL services is not billable. On average about 40% of the work is compensated by insurers; the remainder is not. This can vary from institution to institution. At my institution, only about 20% of our work on C-L is reimbursed on what we bill. What this means is you should only accept these jobs on a salaried basis (or if an independent contractor, for an hourly rate or per consult seen) and never based on collections or RVUs. Even if you were paid on RVUs billed and not collected, you would still lose out, as we often spend longer seeing fewer patients, providing liaison services, educating nursing staff, discussing cases with risk management etc, so the volume is lower than in inpatient or outpatient.

What? This has not been close to my experience at any of the hospitals in the city I’m in. At our academic center the most of the consult attendings are actually making more than pretty much every other service, and they’re on a salary + RVU bonus model.
 
What? This has not been close to my experience at any of the hospitals in the city I’m in. At our academic center the most of the consult attendings are actually making more than pretty much every other service, and they’re on a salary + RVU bonus model.
That would be the exception if they are doing straight C-L. They must be doing a high volume of consults and not doing much liaison. We spend a lot of time doing debriefings, providing education to staff, supporting nursing staff, meetings with risk management and ethics, and an endless stream of committees. In the academic context there is also a lot of time on teaching and supervision. None of this stuff is billable (or if they are, the RVUs are quite low). I'm on one extreme (which is to say my role is more liaison heavy than most) but nationally, particularly in academics it is hard for people to make a lot of wRVUs doing consults. We're not on a RVU model for C-L as a result (whereas everyone else is).
 
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