Class rank means very little

[PoorMD]

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consider a scenario of 115 students in a 1000 point biochemistry course. say 15 of them score above 90% of the total pts available for a course (between 900 and 1000 pts). That leaves 100 students who scored less than 90%.

Of the 100 students below 90%, roughly 60 of them score between 83-87%. Of this group of 60 "average students", there is a 1st and a 60th. the 1st in this group of 60 is 16th overall in the class, with a 87%. But if you look at the back of this group of 60, there someone sitting at the 75th spot in class, with a 83%

my point is, if the standard deviation of a group is small, then the distribution is useless and essentially the 75th rank = 15th rank


hence, the USMLE step 1..

 

[bigfrank]

So...what's your point? Should we all strive to be at the bottom of the class and make a 192?

Regardless of your pseudo-statistical analyses, I just went through the match process and can tell you first-hand that it certainly helps to be at the top when it comes to class rank and Step I score.

Your whiney post reminds me of a line from The Incredibles: "Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

 

[Brainsucker]

So...what's your point? Should we all strive to be at the bottom of the class and make a 192?

Regardless of your pseudo-statistical analyses, I just went through the match process and can tell you first-hand that it certainly helps to be at the top when it comes to class rank and Step I score.

Your whiney post reminds me of a line from The Incredibles: "Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

I think his post is an attempt to make it clear that class rank is not that important. The subject comes up often enough around here. I think he's right about most people, but I think a residency director is still going to be impressed if you're 5th in your class, if not 35th.

 

[tupac_don]

I think his post is an attempt to make it clear that class rank is not that important. The subject comes up often enough around here. I think he's right about most people, but I think a residency director is still going to be impressed if you're 5th in your class, if not 35th.

Class rank is not important, if you are going for medium competitive residency, like surgery, or ER, or maybe even anesthesia. But when you are talking about the ultra competitive ones derm, ophtho, ortho, uro, it defiently does matter. What you think they rather have someone at top of their class with 260 score, or someone with 260 at the middle of the class. For these competitive spots, any edge you can get will help you. Also having AOA helps too, all other stuff is extra if you have all of the other stuff. Granted class rank is not as big as Step I, but it's probably 3rd thing, after your letters of reference and your clinical rotations. It definetly will help, even if the help is not as large, if you are capable of getting a good rank do it.

p.s. Seldom do you hear people at top of their class saying that class rank doesn't matter, and they shouldn't have tried so hard. Usually its people at the middle or the bottom that are proponents that class rank doesn't matter.

 

[Brainsucker]

Class rank is not important, if you are going for medium competitive residency, like surgery, or ER, or maybe even anesthesia. But when you are talking about the ultra competitive ones derm, ophtho, ortho, uro, it defiently does matter. What you think they rather have someone at top of their class with 260 score, or someone with 260 at the middle of the class. For these competitive spots, any edge you can get will help you. Also having AOA helps too, all other stuff is extra if you have all of the other stuff. Granted class rank is not as big as Step I, but it's probably 3rd thing, after your letters of reference and your clinical rotations. It definetly will help, even if the help is not as large, if you are capable of getting a good rank do it.

p.s. Seldom do you hear people at top of their class saying that class rank doesn't matter, and they shouldn't have tried so hard. Usually its people at the middle or the bottom that are proponents that class rank doesn't matter.

Absolutely agree with you. I'm just saying that not many people are going to be in the top of their class, though it'll matter for the few that are. Most are going to be somewhere pretty much in the middle with little differences between them.

 

[JBlue]

Do all schools rank their classes?The dean's office at my school told me that they did not put the class rank on our transcripts. Does it go some where else on our residency applications?

 

[PoorMD]

So...what's your point? Should we all strive to be at the bottom of the class and make a 192?

Regardless of your pseudo-statistical analyses, I just went through the match process and can tell you first-hand that it certainly helps to be at the top when it comes to class rank and Step I score.

Your whiney post reminds me of a line from The Incredibles: "Everyone can be super. And when everyone's super, no one will be."

My point is that people who are 75th in their class might not be in such bad shape, and very well may have matched "ahead" of you on based on their interview, letter of interest, Step I, past experiences, etc. Most residency directors know basic "pseudo-statistics".. likewise, I said nothing of the mindless dribble you proposed about aiming for low Step I scores and last in your class.. only an idiot would even write that

math starting to make sense to you? because mathematical reasoning can only be described as "whiney", right? like all those whiney classmates who had 1 sd below you but stole your #1-#3 rank order based on higher step 1, better LORs, better interview, friendlier posts on SDN, etc. case closed you get the picture.

 

[DrDarwin]

Remember also that programs usually consider school reputation when evaluating applicants. And not just consider: some programs at Columbia give a numerical value to one's medical school, just as they rate one's academic performance. In other words, ranking matters, but there are many confounding variables.

 

[Brainsucker]

Remember also that programs usually consider school reputation when evaluating applicants. And not just consider: some programs at Columbia give a numerical value to one's medical school, just as they rate one's academic performance. In other words, ranking matters, but there are many confounding variables.

Really? I would be very interested to know what the rankings are. (If there's anything SDNers want, it's rankings.)

 

[bigfrank]

My point is that people who are 75th in their class might not be in such bad shape, and very well may have matched "ahead" of you on based on their interview, letter of interest, Step I, past experiences, etc. Most residency directors know basic "pseudo-statistics".. likewise, I said nothing of the mindless dribble you proposed about aiming for low Step I scores and last in your class.. only an idiot would even write that

math starting to make sense to you? because mathematical reasoning can only be described as "whiney", right? like all those whiney classmates who had 1 sd below you but stole your #1-#3 rank order based on higher step 1, better LORs, better interview, friendlier posts on SDN, etc. case closed you get the picture.

Do you feel better about yourself now? To those reviewing for the Step I/II, PoorMD loves to utilize a defense mechanism known as: Rationalization.

 

[DrDarwin]

Really? I would be very interested to know what the rankings are. (If there's anything SDNers want, it's rankings.)

I heard it is a 1-5 scale, which is eerily similar to the scale USNews uses. Strikingly, there are only five quantitative categories, and school reputation is one of them .

 

[Diceman M.D.]

I think the moral of this thread is: NEVER EVER GO TO A SCHOOL THAT GIVES LETTER GRADES. Then you don't have to worry about class rank! Unfortunately, I do. Why? Because I was stupid and didn't think there was going to be a big difference.

 

[DrDarwin]

Pretty much every school has internal rankings, which will be conveyed to residency directors in one way or another. Letter grades just make that fact more obvious to students.

 

[ZAZA67401]

I think rank does matter a lot! I want to eventually go into Peds and I know it to be very competitve and everyone I have talked to so far says you need high board scores and a decently high class rank, but I am glad that Midwestern does not give letter grades! 🙂

 

[synapse lapse]

Do you feel better about yourself now? To those reviewing for the Step I/II, PoorMD loves to utilize a defense mechanism known as: Rationalization.

You know what bigfrank you are such a douche, I mean I used to think you gave valuable advice but really you are just a condescending a$$hole most of the time who makes unnecesary comments because you obviously need to compensate for some character flaw in yourself. You think making a bad ass step 1 score makes you cool? I may agree or disagree with the OP but you always feel the need to interject snide little remarks about everyone elses opinion on studying because you have done well so you feel you are better than them, you are an emotionally immature person who really needs to grow up.

 

[Rafa]

You know what bigfrank...

Perhaps his phrasing was a bit blunt, but the gist of what he said seems, well...accurate. The thread appears to have been started for no other reason than to make the OP feel more adequate about his current rankings in med school. That's...rationalization.

 

[synapse lapse]

Perhaps his phrasing was a bit blunt, but the gist of what he said seems, well...accurate. The thread appears to have been started for no other reason than to make the OP feel more adequate about his current rankings in med school. That's...rationalization.

Yes I was referring to not only this but a history of posts by big frank about this topic. As I even said I may agree or disagree with the OP but that doesn't translate to always being one way about this topic.

 

[bigfrank]

Perhaps his phrasing was a bit blunt, but the gist of what he said seems, well...accurate. The thread appears to have been started for no other reason than to make the OP feel more adequate about his current rankings in med school. That's...rationalization.

😀

SDN cannot always be a flowery, magical, fantastical place. Glad you have the intellectual integrity to see that.

 

[bigfrank]

You know what bigfrank you are such a douche, I mean I used to think you gave valuable advice but really you are just a condescending a$$hole most of the time who makes unnecesary comments because you obviously need to compensate for some character flaw in yourself. You think making a bad ass step 1 score makes you cool? I may agree or disagree with the OP but you always feel the need to interject snide little remarks about everyone elses opinion on studying because you have done well so you feel you are better than them, you are an emotionally immature person who really needs to grow up.

I JUST GOT A DOSE OF TEXAS JUSTICE.

 

[evade]

Here's my thought on class rank:

I have no idea if my school ranks us.
I do not know because I do not care.
I'm doing as well as I can, and I'm happy with that.

🙂

I know this may not help the OP, but it sure does keep my stress levels low!

 

[Arctic Char]

i like your attitude evade.

our school breaks the class into 6th's, and reports which 6th we fall into on our letter. but i'm told that grading systems vary so much that PD's are paying grades far less attention than we might think. its not worth their time to figure out what "bottom half of the upper third " means, anymore than it is for them to understand what "gpa: 3.2" means.

1. USMLE
2. Rotations
3. Letters
4. not absolute bottom of the class and/or no history of failing exams (cause that does show up)

 

[PoorMD]

Perhaps his phrasing was a bit blunt, but the gist of what he said seems, well...accurate. The thread appears to have been started for no other reason than to make the OP feel more adequate about his current rankings in med school. That's...rationalization.

if by accurate you mean rude and condescending, I guess you are right.
and really it has nothing to do with feeling adequate, my position in class is solid. I am using math to shut up people who like to gloat about "I did better than you, by 1%"....

I started the thread to see if anyone going through the match could share how they were not #1-20 in their class but still matched into better residencies because of their other accomplishments. for those of you clinging to 1% leads over a lot of your classmates, don't be shocked when it means **** versus a candidate like myself or many other bright MD students on SDN

 

[bigfrank]

if by accurate you mean rude and condescending, I guess you are right.
and really it has nothing to do with feeling adequate, my position in class is solid. I am using math to shut up people who like to gloat about "I did better than you, by 1%"....

I started the thread to see if anyone going through the match could share how they were not #1-20 in their class but still matched into better residencies because of their other accomplishments. for those of you clinging to 1% leads over a lot of your classmates, don't be shocked when it means **** versus a candidate like myself or many other bright MD students on SDN

The problem with your logic is that you assume that, for some magical reason, your lower class rank instantaneously makes you a social butterfuly, charming, and overall fabulous while someone like me has zero social appeal and should fear your wit and "X-factor." I just went through the interview season, and I can tell you that I did just fine. My class always matches ridiculously well, so it was never an issue for any of us.

To summarize, your diatribes on SDN, propagated against other members, are rather pedestrian.

Another defense mechanism.

 

[silas2642]

The problem with your logic is that you assume that, for some magical reason, your lower class rank instantaneously makes you a social butterfuly, charming, and overall fabulous while someone like me has zero social appeal and should fear your wit and "X-factor." I just went through the interview season, and I can tell you that I did just fine. My class always matches ridiculously well, so it was never an issue for any of us.

To summarize, your diatribes on SDN, propagated against other members, are rather pedestrian.

Another defense mechanism.

Wow, I really hoped you matched in pathology or rads... a field where you don't have to deal with patients or anyone else that might come between you and your enormously large ego (trying to compensate for something, are we?) 😉

 

[boilerbeast]

whoa big frank
a freudian, eh?

ever hear of penis envy?

 

[NeuroSync]

Pretty much every school--HMS and Stanford are the only exceptions I can think of--has internal rankings, which will be conveyed to residency directors in one way or another. Letter grades just make that fact more obvious to students.

...neither does UDub.

 

[PoorMD]

The problem with your logic is that you assume that, for some magical reason, your lower class rank instantaneously makes you a social butterfuly, charming, and overall fabulous while someone like me has zero social appeal and should fear your wit and "X-factor." I just went through the interview season, and I can tell you that I did just fine. My class always matches ridiculously well, so it was never an issue for any of us.

To summarize, your diatribes on SDN, propagated against other members, are rather pedestrian.

Another defense mechanism.

Who's saying I am ranked low or high? You bigfrank. Who's saying I am charming? ... you bigfrank. You are creating a lot of this argument in your head; some might say your posts are even mildly schizophrenic. Are the voices coming back? do the voices tell you to shout sometimes?

 

[mysophobe]

They tell me to lick things.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Class rank means very little

This is exactly what I plan to put on top of my C.V.!!!

 

[Hard24Get]

So, if it is not on your transcript, you basically find out what your class rank is when you get your dean's letter?

 

[PoorMD]

So, if it is not on your transcript, you basically find out what your class rank is when you get your dean's letter?

our school just shows us the class average and of course you know what your own point score is so you sort of 'guestimate' where you stand.. it's crude at best but definately you can see if you are top, middle, or bottom quartiles.

 

[bigfrank]

Who's saying I am ranked low or high? You bigfrank. Who's saying I am charming? ... you bigfrank. You are creating a lot of this argument in your head; some might say your posts are even mildly schizophrenic. Are the voices coming back? do the voices tell you to shout sometimes?

You are obviously very charming.

And the voices in my head tell me to be thankful for my class rank. 😉

 

[shorrin]

we found out in our deans letter - it was so secret the CIA didn't know about it.

here's the breakdown:

"this student will make a ________ resident" and you get:
outstanding = top 25%
excellent = 25-50%
very good = 50-75%
good = ****ty, ****ty, ****ty

what a piece of crap - oddly PD's seem to know about this nonsense, so why don't they just come out and give the numbers... tom cruise will you please come out of the closet.

 

[bigfrank]

tom cruise will you please come out of the closet.

Where did this one come from!!!

 

[liverotcod]

Where did this one come from!!!

South Park Scientology episode.

 

[Biscuit799]

The problem with your logic is that you assume that, for some magical reason, your lower class rank instantaneously makes you a social butterfuly, charming, and overall fabulous while someone like me has zero social appeal and should fear your wit and "X-factor." I just went through the interview season, and I can tell you that I did just fine. My class always matches ridiculously well, so it was never an issue for any of us.

To summarize, your diatribes on SDN, propagated against other members, are rather pedestrian.

Another defense mechanism.

It's ridiculous for you to assume that just because he's not at the top of his class, he holds some assumption that he's a "social butterfly" and "charming." All the OP is saying is that class rank doesn't matter that much. And you know what? It doesn't. What matters is LOR, LOR, USMLE score, and LOR. And how do you get LOR's? By making friends in high places. We as good SDN'ers all want to believe that everything is going to be based on merit and accomplishment, but the fact of the matter is that with Match, along with a lot of life, merit means little and who you know and how much people like you means a lot. You impress one residency director during a sub-I, you're in.
And btw, my experience is that the people at the top of the class usually do have NO personality and even fewer social skills.

 

[DRDARIA]

.

 

[cdql]

And btw, my experience is that the people at the top of the class usually do have NO personality and even fewer social skills.

It's a stereotype. But sadly, it's true. (From what I've seen thus far)

Probably because the library cubicle isn't a great conversation starter.

 

[bigfrank]

It's a stereotype. But sadly, it's true.

🙂