Class Rank - Preclinical Years

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MattSmith45

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So I go to a school with an A/B/C/F grading system and won't know my class rank till after 2nd year.

But I wanted to see if you all could help me predict what it would be around. If I am usually getting around 5 points higher than the average exam grades, is that could enough to be in the top quartile? We don't know what the standard deviations are on our exams but I'm assuming they are similar to exams from other medical schools.
 
Well kid you're top half probably, congrats here is your cookie.
Cookie.png
 
I know this is a nitpicky question, sorry! I was just curious. I don't know the spread of exams so I can't gauge class rank.
 
By "five points", I'm assuming you mean five percent, and assuming your averages are similar to what's thrown around on SDN, ranging from 78 to 84s. Then no, most likely you'll be close, but not in the top quartile. Although, without a SD, it's pretty much useless guessing.
 
I'd be surprised if the spread was so tight that 5 points above put you in the top 25%.
 
Meh, its impossible to say. A bunch of people shared data on their schools in this thread http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...iations-for-your-exams.1102384/#post-15765130

Generally it seemed like the SD on tests ranged from 5-10. If you are higher than the median by about 5 points each test than you may be close to 1 SD above the median, in which case you may be in the top quartile. I would say you are very likely in striking distance though, if that is a goal of yours kick it up a notch and go for it.
 
Thanks guys. Ugh, its so frustrating though. You work your arse off, study as hard as you can, and even then you can't break top quartile. Pretty discouraging
 
Not top quartile at my school.

I want a cookie too now!

MattSmith45 said:
So I go to a school with an A/B/C/F grading system and won't know my class rank till after 2nd year.

But I wanted to see if you all could help me predict what it would be around. If I am usually getting around 5 points higher than the average exam grades, is that could enough to be in the top quartile? We don't know what the standard deviations are on our exams but I'm assuming they are similar to exams from other medical schools.
Click to expand...
 
So how meaningful IS being top-ranked within the class for the pre-clinical years anyway? Assuming your STEP 1 and clinical grades are excellent, does pre-clinical class rank carry any weight?
 
DokterMom said:
So how meaningful IS being top-ranked within the class for the pre-clinical years anyway? Assuming your STEP 1 and clinical grades are excellent, does pre-clinical class rank carry any weight?
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There is no separate preclinical class rank. There is just class rank. All of your grades contribute to AOA but the preclinical ones are generally not as important
 
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DokterMom said:
So how meaningful IS being top-ranked within the class for the pre-clinical years anyway? Assuming your STEP 1 and clinical grades are excellent, does pre-clinical class rank carry any weight?
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I could imagine someone ranking very high in class rank with a mediocre step score won't be too good?
 
MS45 you know we get our class ranking at the end of first year, don't be playin'.
 
AlteredScale said:
You think more so than low class rank with high step? (like 240-250).
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My initial reflex would be to take the higher class rank, mediocre step over the low class rank/high step. Poor grades with a high step score just makes me think you're extremely intelligent, but lack the work ethic to apply it. At least the person with consistent performance in terms of grades was working hard for it. Nobody wants a student who has the capability and intelligence but doesn't work hard.
 
Hrdrock said:
My initial reflex would be to take the higher class rank, mediocre step over the low class rank/high step. Poor grades with a high step score just makes me think you're extremely intelligent, but lack the work ethic to apply it. At least the person with consistent performance in terms of grades was working hard for it. Nobody wants a student who has the capability and intelligence but doesn't work hard.
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The NRMP PD Survey strongly disagree with you. This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I read on SDN.
 
kenjixshadow said:
The NRMP PD Survey strongly disagree with you. This is probably one of the most ridiculous things I read on SDN.
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And I don't disagree with the survey. Notice the "my", in my statement. The reality is that PD's prefer a high step score, just as medical schools preferred the high MCAT. It doesn't really detract from the fact people fall into these categories. What other reason could there be for a person who scores a 250 to not be at the top of his/her class? Clearly they are capable enough to do so.

Edit: I'd also bet that most applicants with a high step score also have the accompanying grades/class rank anyway. Hence why the step score may be higher up on a PD's list of importance.
 
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Hrdrock said:
And I don't disagree with the survey. Notice the "my", in my statement. The reality is that PD's prefer a high step score, just as medical schools preferred the high MCAT. It doesn't really detract from the fact people fall into these categories. What other reason could there be for a person who scores a 250 to not be at the top of his/her class? Clearly they are capable enough to do so.
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They are the ppl who don't want to kill themselves by studying 12+ hrs everyday, have a family, have research projects going on, go to a pass/fail school, don't want to memorize every single minutiae info since they would likely forget right after the exam, and are content with the current class standings. The ppl I know who are enjoying med school the most are neither at the top or at the bottom. They are in the middle and they will turn it up when it matters the most. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are lazy. They just have different priorities.
 
kenjixshadow said:
They are the ppl who don't want to kill themselves by studying 12+ hrs everyday, have a family, have research projects going on, go to a pass/fail school, don't want to memorize every single minutiae info since they would likely forget right after the exam, and are content with the current class standings. The ppl I know who are enjoying med school the most are neither at the top or at the bottom. They are in the middle and they will turn it up when it matters the most. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are lazy. They just have different priorities.
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I can assure you it doesn't take studying 12+ hours a day and memorizing minute details to be near the top of your class. If you're studying 12+ hours a day, you're doing something wrong. Studying smart and doing tons of practice questions is the key to doing well in medical school.

IMO, there is no reason not to bust your ass in med school. That is the reason you're in med school...to learn the material so you can be the best doc you can be for your patients. The more you can learn during your preclinical classes, the easier studying for the boards will become because you will have already seen and memorized the information once before prior to studying and it will come back to you much quicker than someone who "just passed" the class. Plus, those "small details" may be in a case that you have come into the ED at 3am.

I'm not saying you need to be in the top 5% of your class, but usually people who are looking to match into competitive specialties have the mindset and personality where they want to excel in all their work...including preclinical classes, even if they don't "matter" as much to PD.
 
SynapticDoctah said:
I can assure you it doesn't take studying 12+ hours a day and memorizing minute details to be near the top of your class. If you're studying 12+ hours a day, you're doing something wrong. Studying smart and doing tons of practice questions is the key to doing well in medical school.

IMO, there is no reason not to bust your ass in med school. That is the reason you're in med school...to learn the material so you can be the best doc you can be for your patients. The more you can learn during your preclinical classes, the easier studying for the boards will become because you will have already seen and memorized the information once before prior to studying and it will come back to you much quicker than someone who "just passed" the class. Plus, those "small details" may be in a case that you have come into the ED at 3am.

I'm not saying you need to be in the top 5% of your class, but usually people who are looking to match into competitive specialties have the mindset and personality where they want to excel in all their work...including preclinical classes, even if they don't "matter" as much to PD.
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Agree. Can you please define studying start? What is your approach?
 
mymembernames said:
Agree. Can you please define studying start? What is your approach?
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Ping pong and lots of it.

We both have similar studying schedules since we study together with another person but all in all our method ends with spending a full day and half doing questions (100-200 per exam). I start with BRS and any other first/second order question material and do those by myself. We then meet in groups and answer higher order more complex questions sually 72-48 hours before the exam. We take turns going over how we got the right or wrong answer and explain things in detail with regards to our process of elimination. The gap between the test gives us and extra day or two to review any other gaps in our knowledge. It's the working through and dissecting of the questions that helped and honestly has been tremendous help in our renal section where we were very far above the avg score in our class.

Obv. results may vary and this style may no work for you but tbh, running through so many questions and approaching it diigently and meticulously seems to be the key to doing decent on exams.
 
mymembernames said:
Agree. Can you please define studying start? What is your approach?
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Everyone has their idea of smart studying and everyone has a way that works best for them. For me, I don't go to class. The reason for that is that after about 10 minutes, I fade out and can't focus so it's a waste of time not only in class, but an hour driving time to school and back that I could be studying. So I start my day at 6-7am and study till noon watching lectures (sometimes up to 3 times each before an exam, some people think that's dumb and a waste of time, but it works for ME). I draw things out on my white board, and try and memorize most charts and pathways my first or second time through the material so that when the exam comes, I have already memorized it once, so reviewing is easier. By the time the exam comes, I will go through material at least 3x. From 1-5pm is usually lab time, and then I will study again from about 7-10pm.

The one thing I can't emphasize enough is to try and finish your "learning" 1.5 days AHEAD of the exam. For example, if an exam is on Monday, be DONE reviewing and learning material by Saturday afternoon. That way you have a 1.5 days to work through practice questions. Like @AlteredScale said, we work through close to 100-200 practice test questions every exam. There are only a select number of exam questions a professor can write...so chances are if you do that many questions, you will have seen a lot of the real test questions in your preparation already.

Oh, and don't forget to take study breaks (ping pong, lol).
 
SynapticDoctah said:
The more you can learn during your preclinical classes, the easier studying for the boards will become because you will have already seen and memorized the information once before prior to studying and it will come back to you much quicker.
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No argument from me on the points above. I just want to point out that this would pan out nicely if pre-clinical classes are tailored exactly with board and that's not always the case unfortunately.
 
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Preclinical class rank doesn't matter much, but AOA does.

At my program you get into AOA based on your overall class rank (where 1/3 is pre-clinical performance, 2/3 is clinical performance, and you need to be top 1/5 of the class to qualify), your extracurriculars, and peer recommendations. I'm sure some schools take Step scores into account as well. When it comes time to interview, AOA and Step 1 score will matter significantly and many top programs will set interview cutoffs based on those things. During residency application season, several programs directly told me that they chose not to interview me because I was not AOA. It happens.
 
MattSmith45 said:
So I go to a school with an A/B/C/F grading system and won't know my class rank till after 2nd year.

But I wanted to see if you all could help me predict what it would be around. If I am usually getting around 5 points higher than the average exam grades, is that could enough to be in the top quartile? We don't know what the standard deviations are on our exams but I'm assuming they are similar to exams from other medical schools.
Click to expand...

URHere said:
Preclinical class rank doesn't matter much, but AOA does.

At my program you get into AOA based on your overall class rank (where 1/3 is pre-clinical performance, 2/3 is clinical performance, and you need to be top 1/5 of the class to qualify), your extracurriculars, and peer recommendations. I'm sure some schools take Step scores into account as well. When it comes time to interview, AOA and Step 1 score will matter significantly and many top programs will set interview cutoffs based on those things. During residency application season, several programs directly told me that they chose not to interview me because I was not AOA. It happens.
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We just wrapped up interviews for this season. We have a hard cut-off for Step 1 scores, but I don't think anyone paid any attention to AOA, much less pre-clinical scores. Maybe some programs/specialties care more about it, but it is their loss.
 
mimelim said:
We just wrapped up interviews for this season. We have a hard cut-off for Step 1 scores, but I don't think anyone paid any attention to AOA, much less pre-clinical scores. Maybe some programs/specialties care more about it, but it is their loss.
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Interesting. So then your field works the exact opposite of every other field that would pay attention and take notice of the AOA candidate.
 
mimelim said:
We just wrapped up interviews for this season. We have a hard cut-off for Step 1 scores, but I don't think anyone paid any attention to AOA, much less pre-clinical scores. Maybe some programs/specialties care more about it, but it is their loss.
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Interesting, you're at a big name mid-atlantic school, correct? Either way, how would your program perceive someone with upper 230s board score but had to remediate a test?
 
Slack3r said:
Well, by AOA bylaws, only the top 25% of the class are eligible to apply, so class rank is a pretty major barrier to AOA election.
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I meant that preclinical years is not as important as the clinical years. It wasn't clear in my post
 
addy said:
Interesting, you're at a big name mid-atlantic school, correct? Either way, how would your program perceive someone with upper 230s board score but had to remediate a test?
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SouthernSurgeon said:
Can't speak for @mimelim 's program but unfortunately at mine it would be an auto-reject. We don't review apps for people who've failed any of the steps.
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I don't tell people where I'm at or location because there just aren't that many programs and in each program there are only 1-2 residents per class. As it is, there are only ~40 integrated residents in the US my year...

Our program is like SouthernSurgeon's, if you fail a step, you are not going to interview. Remediating a med school class/test, I don't think that it has happened, but my guess is that if everything else was in order, you would still interview.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Can't speak for @mimelim 's program but unfortunately at mine it would be an auto-reject. We don't review apps for people who've failed any of the steps.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant failed a pre-clinical course, not the Step 1-- step 1 is upper 230s
 
mimelim said:
I don't tell people where I'm at or location because there just aren't that many programs and in each program there are only 1-2 residents per class. As it is, there are only ~40 integrated residents in the US my year...

Our program is like SouthernSurgeon's, if you fail a step, you are not going to interview. Remediating a med school class/test, I don't think that it has happened, but my guess is that if everything else was in order, you would still interview.
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Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had publically disclosed where you were in the past. I must be confusing you with someone else (not on SDN that much).

Either way, you mentioned cutoffs for Step 1 at your institution-- do you know what the cutoff is?
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
We set an initial cutoff of 240, but then I know our PD goes back and individually reviews most of the 230-240 range to make sure not to miss any "diamonds in the rough". We also usually don't apply the cutoff to our home institution students, interestingly enough.
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Cool, that's kind of reassuring. And this is for General Surgery, right?
 
If your school is like mine or most of the others I know people attending, you're obviously in the 2nd quartile but probably not in the upper quartile. Most medical schools have a very clustered grade distribution. In my class, the average on both tests and courses as a whole is usually a high B with a whopping ~70-75% of people scoring either higher than average or within 1-2% of average. Our average is always kind of skewed a little because every test about 3-4 people will score very poorly; 1 person scoring a 40% affects an 88% class average 4 times as much as 1 person scoring a 100%. I recall one test last class where only 17 people scored a higher grade than me, but 21 other people got the exact same score as me. The sheer closeness of how everybody scores can really get frustrating at times, but I would imagine you are in the upper part of the 2nd quartile.
 
Psai said:
There is no separate preclinical class rank. There is just class rank. All of your grades contribute to AOA but the preclinical ones are generally not as important
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This is not necessarily true. My school uses two code words, one for pre-clinical years and one for clinical years.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
We set an initial cutoff of 240, but then I know our PD goes back and individually reviews most of the 230-240 range to make sure not to miss any "diamonds in the rough". We also usually don't apply the cutoff to our home institution students, interestingly enough.
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That's pretty high for GS isn't it? You must be at a top 10 program?
 
your preclinical grades matter, especially for students at lower-tier schools who can't rely on their school's reputation to land a residency. for these students, AOA matters, and the only way you can get into AOA is by being in the top fourth of your class. the preclinical grades are also, uh, testing the stuff that's going to be on the thing that matters more than anything else -- the step 1 -- so mastering the material early is pretty important.
 
I don't know why people automatically assume a lunatic no life who studies 12 hours a day, barely eat and sleep when we are talking about top quarter of class...Honestly if you put in about 3-5 hours of serious work after class, it's not a wild chase... Also, if you consistently end up in middle of the class, chances are (I'm not saying there aren't any exceptions), you will likely end up middle in your STEP too. It doesn't have to do with the material that much, but rather the discipline and work habbit that you have. To someone who barely studies everyday, studying 3h is like a great accomplishment, but to someone else that's consistently putting 5h into their study everyday, it's a "light day". Just like it's really not realistic to expect an average (again, exceptions may apply) 3.2 undergrad applicant to suddenly score a 40 on MCAT. The people who are consistently at the top either got there by 1) extremely intelligent (I'm not talking about the "smart" that allows you to kill one single test), 2) diligent and self-disciplined.

So no, the preclinical scores themselves don't matter, but what it reflect does.
 
psychMDhopefully said:
What specialty did you apply for? Derm? Ortho???
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Med-Peds. I was surprised too, but I guess that's what happens when you only have about 80 programs, all academic and most with 4-6 spots. To be clear, the only places that told me are considered top tier programs for IM and are known to be insanely competitive.

Overall, I got more than enough interviews to make up for it, but it's a factor if the places you like most collect AOA residents.
 
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