Classifying Experience?

[HelloNello]

---

Members do not see this ad.

.

 

[deleted387118]

If the vet isn't present its animal experience. Period. You'll never get in trouble for classifying down, but classifying up is misrepresentation.

 

[jmo1012]

Hey all! I figured we should start a thread dedicated to classifying experiences instead of posting each question as an individual thread. This way it might be easier for newer users to navigate experience questions. Just an idea!


My classification question: I am going to be birthing cows in a month or so. I don't think a vet will be present. Do you think this is veterinary experience or animal experience? I will be working with a farm owner who does this every year. I know if a vet is present it is considered vet experience, but what if the vet isn't there?

as the person above said, it is only veterinary experience if a veterinarian is present (as in right there watching you or you're watching them). even my spay/neuter clinic stuff was only animal experience because although we were recovering from anesthesia, calculating and administering anesthetic drugs, and giving vaccinations, the vets were doing surgery and not around to supervise.

 

[LetItSnow]

If the vet isn't present its animal experience. Period.

I don't believe that is correct.

VMCAS has a chart that helps you figure it out. There are two categories: "Was the work related to animals?" and "Was the work supervised by a health professional?" "Veterinary Experience" applies when you can answer yes to both of those. There is nothing in there requiring a vet to be present (or even that the supervisor BE a vet).

I volunteered in canine rehab at the university hospital.... I put that down as veterinary experience. But, an actual vet only occasionally stops into rehab (usually if a dog is having trouble, or sometimes just to check on one of their former patients). My supervisor was a vet tech (with CCRA or CRT training, whatever it is).

Jmo1012: When I did my app, I certainly would have put what you described down as veterinary experience! No hesitation!

In the end, I think that if you can honestly justify the classification, nobody will give you grief.

ETA: I took jesskb's comment to mean that in any occasion a vet isn't present, it ought to be animal experience. Re-reading, I realize she might have meant it specific to this situation..... If so, my apologies jesskb.

 

[scb44f]

I don't believe that is correct.

VMCAS has a chart that helps you figure it out. There are two categories: "Was the work related to animals?" and "Was the work supervised by a health professional?" "Veterinary Experience" applies when you can answer yes to both of those. There is nothing in there requiring a vet to be present (or even that the supervisor BE a vet).

[...]

Jmo2012: When I did my app, I certainly would have put what you described down as veterinary experience! No hesitation!

In the end, I think that if you can honestly justify the classification, nobody will give you grief.

Right, but is there a vet supervising the birth at all, in any aspect? What if it were a dog giving birth instead of a cow? It would seem pretty strange to put that in as vet experience if it was all done at home with no vet around.

I would classify this as animal experience, personally. If you really aren't sure though, you can always contact VMCAS or the school(s) you're applying to.

ETA: The good news about this stuff is that if a school doesn't like what category it's in, they can choose to move it around as they see fit. Putting it on the application is the important part.

 

[LetItSnow]

Right, but is there a vet supervising the birth at all, in any aspect? What if it were a dog giving birth instead of a cow? It would seem pretty strange to put that in as vet experience if it was all done at home with no vet around.

Completely agree. I was responding to jesskb and jmo1012. The OPs experience sounds like it ought to go 'animal'. If I were jmo1012, though, I'd put that spay/neuter experience in 'vet exp'. But it's not my app! 🙂

ETA: The good news about this stuff is that if a school doesn't like what category it's in, they can choose to move it around as they see fit. Putting it on the application is the important part.

Absolutely. That's why I think people shouldn't sweat it so much. Do your honest best to put it in the right category, and then forget about it. If a school disagrees, they'll just move it.

 

[scb44f]

Completely agree. I was responding to jesskb and jmo1012. The OPs experience sounds like it ought to go 'animal'. If I were jmo1012, though, I'd put that spay/neuter experience in 'vet exp'. But it's not my app! 🙂

Ohh gotcha! Agreed 😀

 

[deleted387118]

LetItSnow: You took it how I meant it the first time. IMO and how I understood it when I filled out my application after discussing it with admissions and our (awesome) Pre-Vet adviser is that a veterinarian HAS to be supervising. This is because what technicians do and what veterinarians do is different. What knowledgeable owners do and what vets do is different. They want to know that you have experience with what you will be actually doing as a vet.

I grew up raising livestock. I vaccinate all my animals myself, I handle dystocias (and if I can't get it I call the vet), I manage synchronized breeding, and I cut-castrate all of the bull calves (under a month) by myself. Would you classify this as veterinary experience? Its what a vet would learn to do and often do for less-knowledgeable/experienced owners. But I didn't get to call it that because there wasn't a DVM present.

 

[LetItSnow]

I grew up raising livestock. I vaccinate all my animals myself, I handle dystocias (and if I can't get it I call the vet), I manage synchronized breeding, and I cut-castrate all of the bull calves (under a month) by myself. Would you classify this as veterinary experience? Its what a vet would learn to do and often do for less-knowledgeable/experienced owners. But I didn't get to call it that because there wasn't a DVM present.

Well, first and foremost, I would say the same thing I've said before: use your best judgment. So long as it's reasonably defensible, nobody's going to come down on you if they disagree or have to shift your numbers. (I realize you're in school already and the 'you' in this situation is sorta hypothetical.) I'm merely throwing out my interpretation of VMCAS - I'm not calling into question how you or anyone else fill(ed) out their app; that's to your best judgment. If you think it makes the most sense to go beyond what VMCAS actually says, and classify your experiences based on what you or an adviser thinks the schools want, who am I to say that's wrong?

But specifically in the situation you mentioned: No, I'd call that animal experience if it were on my app. But not because a DVM isn't present. I'd classify it as animal experience because it wasn't "supervised by a health professional," per VMCAS's instructions.

VMCAS is very clear when it says "supervised by a health professional." It doesn't say "supervised by a DVM or VMD." Nor does it say anything about that supervision requiring immediate presence. So the idea that a DVM has to be present is incorrect, by my reading.

That said, if you believe a vet tech is not a health professional, I could see that argument.

Regarding the value of experience supervised by a tech..... Sure, vets and vet techs do different things. But that doesn't mean experience supervised by a vet tech, for instance, isn't veterinary experience or isn't valuable for someone heading into vet school. First, there are any number of veterinarians who operate alone. They quite clearly ARE performing the full range of veterinary duties, including those that a tech might normally perform. Second, a vet needs to be able to offer instruction to techs and does need to have at least some understanding of the full range of their job requirements.

 

[bee83]

I was under the impression that any work done in a veterinary setting is veterinary experience, regardless of whether the vet is right there looking at what you are doing. I know people have counted receptionist jobs as vet experience, and that doesn't even (usually) involve working directly with the animals. If I were to count only those times when I was watching a vet or a vet was watching me, I'd have about 90 hours of vet experience instead of 900. No, thank you. I'm going to count all my spay/neuter clinic hours, my hours cleaning kennels and stalls, and the times I've spent with the techs in the next room over from the vet. They have all been extremely valuable and have taught me a lot about the profession.
As for the cow birthing thing, I couldn't tell you, I'm just referring to vet experience in general.

 

[moosenanny]

This doesn't apply to any anecdotes/examples anyone has brought up thus far, but for those reading this thread and wondering if their experience can be classified as "veterinary" or not:

Work under a PhD or PI is also counted as "vet experience."

Over 1,000 of my vet hours came from working with a Wildlife Physiology PhD in Alaska raising moose calves 🙂

 

[deleted387118]

Touche! - Definitely a difference in interpretation. I did classify my receptionist aspect as veterinary med, but it was because whatever I did, other than ringing up simple things (like frontline, already measured pills, etc) and making vaccine appts was seen and discussed with a veterinarian.

As far as techs vs vets go, I definitely see where you are coming from. To contradict myself, I guess you could even go with that line of reasoning I just stated above. Maybe its just having started vet school that I've gained an appreciation for the depth of knowledge that goes into everything you do as a vet. Long term techs are great at their job and often are right on their preliminary diagnoses. I just never appreciated how much more knowledge a vet has behind that diagnosis than a tech does.

And you are totally right - justification is the key. IMO better not to have to make those justifications though 🙂

 

[HelloNello]

I suppose in this case it is animal experience. Either way I am pretty excited to birth cows... 🙂

Another question lingering these last few months before apps: when you list your job description/duties did you make a list? did you write an essay about all the cool things you did? did you describe every single duty you had?

I didn't know whether to put down that my duties include monitoring anesthesia, blood draws, giving vaccinations, calculating drugs, inventory, filling prescriptions, nail trims, anal glands, dental scales, giving sq fluids, placing catheters, removing catheters, doing laundry, taking and developing xrays, running urine and blood.

I mean how much detail do they want? should it be every responsibility the practice has given me? or should it only be the things I do with animals? Is it most effective to list it or is it better to write it out? What do you all think?

Also I have been giving my cat insulin injections for 5 years. Can that go under animal experience or is it as lame as saying "I give myself 3000 hours for owning pets since I was 2?"

Who knew I could obsess over every teeny detail that I am going to put on this application...oh well. I swear I will become less insane after I apply...I hope :/

 

[LetItSnow]

Another question lingering these last few months before apps: when you list your job description/duties did you make a list? did you write an essay about all the cool things you did? did you describe every single duty you had?

You have a pretty tight character limit for each entry in the experiences section, but I think you want to fit in as detailed a list of all the things you've seen. I did mine in prose (as opposed to just a straight up list), and that's what *I* think is best, but I don't think I could really back that up ... it's just my gut feeling that it is more professional. I think a lot of people might go the other way, arguing that a list is more compact, easier to read, and can fit more concrete information. You'll just have to decide. 🙂

My first cycle I was dumb: I said to myself things like "They know what shadowing is; they don't need me to spell out what I saw." The feedback I got after rejection was "be specific; tell us exactly what you did, what you saw, what you learned." It's a bit of a PITA because you really don't have the space for that.

I didn't know whether to put down that my duties include monitoring anesthesia, blood draws, giving vaccinations, calculating drugs, inventory, filling prescriptions, nail trims, anal glands, dental scales, giving sq fluids, placing catheters, removing catheters, doing laundry, taking and developing xrays, running urine and blood.

Yes. All of it. And when you run out of space, start prioritizing by removing 'doing laundry' and whatnot.

Also I have been giving my cat insulin injections for 5 years. Can that go under animal experience or is it as lame as saying "I give myself 3000 hours for owning pets since I was 2?"

The advice the former chief of large animal surgery gave me was "if you ever touched an animal, put it on your application."

You'll get answers on both sides with regards to pet ownership. Some people will say "it's stupid; don't put it on there." I feel like it is legitimate animal experience, and the applications committees are probably filled with intelligent people who know to give it a tiny bit of value but not too much. So I put it on there. As far as hours, I went ahead and quantified it, even though it ends up being a silly number. Same idea: they know that those hours aren't the same as 3000 hours of professional experience or research or whatever.

If you describe the actual experience (whatever it is) accurately, I think they'll be able to do a good job figuring out how much value to give it.

 

[bluesails]

Bumping this thread because I need help -

I'm currently volunteering at a wildlife rehab clinic, but since we're in a rural area the clinic ends up doing a lot more than just wildlife rehab (small animal, shelter medicine)... and so do I.

My current duties include feeding and enrichment for macaques, feeding and handling of shelter and small animals (the clinic does shelter work as a second priority), being on call for wildlife rescues, being on call for all emergency veterinary procedures, working in the vet clinic keeping records and inventory etc., managing/training staff and handling horses at the riding stables affiliated with the clinic, assisting the vet with surgeries, performing spay/neuter surgeries under supervision (yes this is a third-world country), snake handling, inpatient care (since I'm living at the wildlife center), cleaning, laundry, and maintenance for the house we all live in, and making house calls to return domestics. More stuff might turn up.

Do I shove all of this under one experience? And would I classify it as animal or veterinary?

The vet comes on certain days a week, so maybe I should just classify those days as my veterinary experience and other days as my animal experience? Can I list the same practice under two different experiences?

And would I still list the practice as a wildlife rehab center and wildlife vet clinic (since this is what it is primarily)? Or a mixed practice?

Thanks. :/

 

[twelvetigers]

I would say that it's veterinary experience. I would try and fit it all in one listing, but focus on the most important parts of it with the limited space provided. But, if you chose to split it up, I don't think that would be the end of the world... it would just be tricky to estimate hours spent doing one vs. the other.

I would call it whatever you want, but describe it well and check all the species boxes that apply - that should cover things pretty well.

Either way, it sounds neat.

 

[Lab Vet]

Just figured I'd chime in here folks and ad an 'aside' to the growing conversation. Much of my experience over the past several years has been acquired in various research laboratories. I completed all of my work either in concert with or under the supervision of PhD scientists who were NOT clinicians (i.e. no DVM, no MD- just the straight-up PhD). I recently contacted VMCAS and received a reply today (08-08-11), confirming that veterinary-related research activities (i.e. administering compounds, surgical manipulation, etc.) completed in association with a PhD scientist is indeed considered 'veterinary experience.' I asked specifically whether PhD's trained in my discipline (physiology) would be considered 'health scientists' as listed on the VMCAS chart form, and VMCAS authorities answered with an emphatic yes.

I know that the above thread has dealt with agricultural experience. My apologies for ranging off topic. For those of you obtaining any experience in research labs relating to animal biology (and supervised by a PhD), detail this experience carefully and list it under the 'veterinary' category. Hope that this can help some folks 🙂

 

[Minnerbelle]

I recently contacted VMCAS and received a reply today (08-08-11), confirming that veterinary-related research activities (i.e. administering compounds, surgical manipulation, etc.) completed in association with a PhD scientist is indeed considered 'veterinary experience.' I asked specifically whether PhD's trained in my discipline (physiology) would be considered 'health scientists' as listed on the VMCAS chart form, and VMCAS authorities answered with an emphatic yes.

uhhh... well that's very confuzzling... 'cause VMCAS told us just a little while ago that it wasn't?😕 (I mean, for someone with your level of experience, I don't see how the classification will make a diff, but still).

Here's the thread: Research experience is NOT vet experience thread

 

[LetItSnow]

uhhh... well that's very confuzzling... 'cause VMCAS told us just a little while ago that it wasn't?😕 (I mean, for someone with your level of experience, I don't see how the classification will make a diff, but still).

Here's the thread: Research experience is NOT vet experience thread

Right? Did VMCAS do an about-face on this one? I saw this thread and my first thought was that I was sure that VMCAS had posted something specifically saying that the only experience that counted as vet experience was that supervised by a vet or vet-tech. Sigh.

I'm pretty sure people overthink this. If you make the very best honest call you can about how to categorize your stuff, it'll be fine. Of course, it can be hard to be honest with yourself when deep down you want those vet experience hours to be as high as possible, but..... Schools may adjust the credit/score/points/value/whatever they give for your hours if they disagree, but nobody's going to be holding it against you if your choice was at least a defensibly reasonable decision.

 

[Puffins]

Bumping this thread because I have a similar question. I work for a wildlife pathologist who runs her own business. I'm her only employee. My duties include setting up for, helping out with, and cleaning up after necropsies of wildlife. However, the majority of my time is spent managing samples and helping maintain a database, as well as shipping and receiving samples from other people. I have been keeping a spreadsheet of my necropsy hours as it was my understanding that veterinary hours are only those spent specifically working under a vet. I work pretty independently otherwise. I guess my question is this: should I only count my necropsy hours as vet hours or can I count all my work hours? It's the difference between ~215 hours in necropsy and ~1300 general work hours.

Thanks!

 

[LetItSnow]

Bumping this thread because I have a similar question. I work for a wildlife pathologist who runs her own business. I'm her only employee.

My instinct says ... I don't know. I think you'd be well-advised to call VMCAS and ask what they think, or to call a school or two and ask what they think. At least doing it that way you're getting an answer you can defend yourself with. I can see arguments both ways.

 

[FutResearchVet]

Right? Did VMCAS do an about-face on this one? I saw this thread and my first thought was that I was sure that VMCAS had posted something specifically saying that the only experience that counted as vet experience was that supervised by a vet or vet-tech. Sigh.


I hope my research counts as vet experience... since I listed it as that. I am currently working directly under a PhD (I'm in the process of finishing my PhD) and working with research animals on a daily basis doing various surgeries, treatments, experimental sometimes with and sometimes without the veterinarians present, as well as sometimes with and sometimes without my PhD advisor. Oh well, I guess the adcoms will count it as they choose.

 

[Puffins]

My instinct says ... I don't know. I think you'd be well-advised to call VMCAS and ask what they think, or to call a school or two and ask what they think. At least doing it that way you're getting an answer you can defend yourself with. I can see arguments both ways.

Thanks, that's good advice. I can also see arguments both ways, even though I'm more inclined to think all my hours should count. I'm a little biased, though 😉 How I see it is that just because I am not working right next to my vet boss doesn't mean I'm not working with her. I'm learning other valuable aspects of what it means to be a wildlife veterinarian by helping her run her business.

 

[LetItSnow]

Did VMCAS do an about-face on this one? I saw this thread and my first thought was that I was sure that VMCAS had posted something specifically saying that the only experience that counted as vet experience was that supervised by a vet or vet-tech. Sigh.

That sounds right. But then you get into the whole "what constitutes supervised" question. If a vet runs a business, is that 'supervising' everybody there? Is it only your immediate supervisor? Do they have to be present? What if your immediate boss is a vet but you're just taking the trash out at night?

In the end, people need to use some common sense. If it's a tough call, you just do your best. The schools will understand.

Oh well, I guess the adcoms will count it as they choose.

Exactly. The one thing they aren't going to do, so long as you weren't being entirely unreasonable, is reject you outright simply for categorizing something other than how they would categorize it.

 

[LDConsidering]

I'm trying to go through and figure up my experience hours and I'm not sure what to classify this as. I worked at a vet hospital for 11 months as assistant kennel manager, during this time my duties included post-surgery care as well as normal boarding stuff. I also assisted the vets and techs during down times. Would I be able to consider this all vet experience or would I have to try to separate it out? 😕

 

[Minnerbelle]

I hope my research counts as vet experience... since I listed it as that. I am currently working directly under a PhD (I'm in the process of finishing my PhD) and working with research animals on a daily basis doing various surgeries, treatments, experimental sometimes with and sometimes without the veterinarians present, as well as sometimes with and sometimes without my PhD advisor. Oh well, I guess the adcoms will count it as they choose.

yeah... it's really arbitrary what they choose, so the schools I'm sure will just reclassify your experiences however they'd like. But this year, the VMCAS guy came on and was pretty clear that after feedback from schools last cycle, research under a PhD no longer counted as vet experience. I don't think schools will consider your research as any less valuable in any way though (and as it was not explicitly stated in the directions, I don't think anyone will be penalized for listing it wrong) . it was kind of a shocker for us all though. It would personally have freaked out a bit had if that had been my cycle since aside from shelter work (from 2 years before I applied), the only vet experience I had otherwise on my apps was my research experience. But schools obviously do value research, esp done at your level, so I don't think it should hurt you at all.

maybe i'll take that post from VMCAS and add it one of the stickies.