Clinical experience??

[MuscleCrunch]

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Everybody and their mother here talks about how important clinical experience is to get into med school... My question is... if you have a 4.0, and let's say you do well on the MCAT, is not having much clinical experience (~35 hours in the ER) really gonna hurt your chances so much?

I do have a solid research and work experience, but not much clinical... Should I go nuts picking up some hours at the local hospital or do you think I'm OK? And if you do think that clinical experience is so important, how do you know?

Thanks.

 

[han14tra]

Yes, you do need clinical experience. There are plenty of people with high MCAT scores and high GPAs that don't get in. I'd recommend doing some volunteering at a free clinic rather than shadowing. That way, you'll actually get to interact with the patients and med schools are really into the underserved thing.

You might get into an OK school with high stats and no clinical experience, but if you want to get into a GREAT school you need both.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

any shadowing?

 

[MuscleCrunch]

nope. Just 500+ hours doing research at the college of medicine. And those 35 hours at the ER🙂) How do you get a doctor to let you shadow? Didn't have much luck with that but then again didn't try much...

 

[CanHasNaps]

If you are looking to get into a research heavy program, then it may not hurt you that much. Honestly, it may not hurt you much period depending on the schools that you apply to. Certain schools favor having more clinical experience than others. It's usually pretty easy to pick those out, as I believe that there is information about the percentage of students with clinical experience on the MSAR page.

Honestly, pre-med clinical experience is hard to come by. Don't feel bad if you have a difficult time finding it.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I was kinda low on my clinical experience when I applied. Obviously it turned out OK for me, but there were definitely a few schools that I didn't get into (including the med school where I'd done 2 summer research programs at, and several low-tier state schools) that I think I would've been a lock at if I'd had more clinical experience. The honest truth is that probably the thing that comes up most in interviews is your clinical experience and what you learned from it, so I'd get those hours.

 

[Hill Country]

In my opinion how much shadowing someone should do is relative to how meaningful the shadowing experience is. Did you just sit there and watch a doctor work without interaction? Probably going to need more shadow hours. Were you actively engaged in your shadowing and learned a lot, both about the way that doctor works but also about dealing with patients, problems physicians face, and other things that give you a sense of how medicine is in the real world? Then you don't necessarily need as much. A good indicator would be if you felt comfortable carrying on a brief but meaningful conversation about your shadowing experience with your interviewer.

As for finding doctors to shadow, hospitals (especially teaching ones) oftentimes have some sort of shadow program, you can check out their website or ask to speak to a volunteer coordinator. A pre-med adviser could also help in this regards. If all else fails, find someone who might know some doctors and ask them to help you (I shadowed two doctors that one of my high school teachers knew so you never know where you can find help).

 

[DrYoda]

I was kinda low on my clinical experience when I applied. Obviously it turned out OK for me, but there were definitely a few schools that I didn't get into (including the med school where I'd done 2 summer research programs at, and several low-tier state schools) that I think I would've been a lock at if I'd had more clinical experience. The honest truth is that probably the thing that comes up most in interviews is your clinical experience and what you learned from it, so I'd get those hours.

This is my experience as well, if I were to go back I would have racked up some more clinical experience hours.

 

[Lukkie]

I was kinda low on my clinical experience when I applied. Obviously it turned out OK for me, but there were definitely a few schools that I didn't get into (including the med school where I'd done 2 summer research programs at, and several low-tier state schools) that I think I would've been a lock at if I'd had more clinical experience. The honest truth is that probably the thing that comes up most in interviews is your clinical experience and what you learned from it, so I'd get those hours.

just curious but did you put your MTG experience on your app and if so did anyone ask about it

 

[Red Leader]

IMO clinical experience is a term bent by neurotic undergrads who want to count "patient transport" as "clinical experience."

It's also a worthless experience IMO. Waste of time, you get nothing out of it, just another hoop to jump through. If you can find a worthwhile actual shadowing or clinical (hands on) experience then go for it.

 

[Lukkie]

IMO clinical experience is a term bent by neurotic undergrads who want to count "patient transport" as "clinical experience."

It's also a worthless experience IMO. Waste of time, you get nothing out of it, just another hoop to jump through. If you can find a worthwhile actual shadowing or clinical (hands on) experience then go for it.

LizzyM considers it clinical experience so that's worth it enough for me.

 

[GoSpursGo]

just curious but did you put your MTG experience on your app and if so did anyone ask about it

Yep, and yep, at no less than 2 interviews, including Baylor 😀 Of course, if you just played like over your kitchen table or local tournaments, don't bother, but since I had some success at the regional and national level, I figured why not; it'd be something no one else would have, and it really was something I spent (wasted 😛) a lot of time on.

Not sure I'd really put it on there again, but it didn't seem to hurt!

IMO clinical experience is a term bent by neurotic undergrads who want to count "patient transport" as "clinical experience."

It's also a worthless experience IMO. Waste of time, you get nothing out of it, just another hoop to jump through. If you can find a worthwhile actual shadowing or clinical (hands on) experience then go for it.

Meh. Play the game.

 

[Red Leader]

LizzyM considers it clinical experience so that's worth it enough for me.

She considers wheeling patients around as clinical? Hell, then I have 1000 hours of clinical experience! Thanks for that info!

I still think it's a worthless BS hoop to jump through, but hey the hoops are there so jump doggies jump!

 

[GoSpursGo]

She considers wheeling patients around as clinical? Hell, then I have 1000 hours of clinical experience! Thanks for that info!

Yep, the golden rule is "if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical experience." Make sure you can spin it right, but it definitely counts.

 

[Red Leader]

Yep, the golden rule is "if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical experience." Make sure you can spin it right, but it definitely counts.

ok see I thought that's what she said too gotta be close enough to "smell them."

I dunno how YOU guys are all wheeling patients around but I do not really smell them or anything. Also please tell me how I can spin a mundane task such as pushing a wheelchair into some worthwhile experience that it clearly is not. I think the adcoms will appreciate it more if I just call it out for what it is and don't waste their time with BS.

 

[Lukkie]

I dunno how YOU guys are all wheeling patients around but I do not really smell them or anything.

maybe next time you're wheeling em lean forward so your nose is near their head. that way you can count it as clinical exp.

 

[Red Leader]

maybe next time you're wheeling em lean forward so your nose is near their head. that way you can count it as clinical exp.

What a sly...sly technique. 👍

 

[GoSpursGo]

Honestly, you're providing a vital service to the patient and to the hospital; someone has to move the patients, and college volunteers are the lowest people on the totem pole. Do you actually learn anything that teaches you anything about what it's like to be a doctor or a med student? No, of course not, but it shows an adcom that you care about patients on some level. If you're not willing/capable of doing THAT, why would they let you touch patients as a med student?

By all means, if you can find something better, do so... but if that's what you've can get, run with it.

 

[dw2158]

Yep, the golden rule is "if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical experience." Make sure you can spin it right, but it definitely counts.

ah yes. the good old spinaroo. never underestimate its value 😉

maybe next time you're wheeling em lean forward so your nose is near their head. that way you can count it as clinical exp.

Lukkie FTW! 👍

 

[deleted249431]

Yep, the golden rule is "if you're close enough to smell the patient, it's clinical experience." Make sure you can spin it right, but it definitely counts.

Haha. I've been shadowing a doctor all week in a rural clinic, and I have definitely been smelling some of the farmers who have been coming in.

 

[crazycooljoel]

In my opinion how much shadowing someone should do is relative to how meaningful the shadowing experience is. Did you just sit there and watch a doctor work without interaction? Probably going to need more shadow hours. Were you actively engaged in your shadowing and learned a lot, both about the way that doctor works but also about dealing with patients, problems physicians face, and other things that give you a sense of how medicine is in the real world? Then you don't necessarily need as much. A good indicator would be if you felt comfortable carrying on a brief but meaningful conversation about your shadowing experience with your interviewer.

As for finding doctors to shadow, hospitals (especially teaching ones) oftentimes have some sort of shadow program, you can check out their website or ask to speak to a volunteer coordinator. A pre-med adviser could also help in this regards. If all else fails, find someone who might know some doctors and ask them to help you (I shadowed two doctors that one of my high school teachers knew so you never know where you can find help).

In regards to this, I have a couple docs that let me shadow them once in a while, but i'm military and do it in the base hospital, they're all about helping and mentoring future med students. As soon as I go to any hospital off base they turn me down in seconds. They worry about possible lawsuits for having someone shadow them. The only other way for clinicals at off base hospitals in my area is to be in a nursing program. But the Docs I shadow are awesome, they let me use the stethescopes on patients, look in the ears, cover some of the EKG patterns, and explain whats going on. The patients are all cool for the most part, the docs just let them know i'm shadowing and get an "ok" from them and it's all good. (I understand verbal consent doesn't mean much in the civilian world). I keep a notebook that I write all my notes in for different patient scenarios. This should help me keep record of my clinical hours and i'd like to know how many patients i've interacted with after so long. Plus I can always review my notes to stay familiar with certian situations/types of patient visits. And as a side note, if anyone else tries this when you do clinicals, don't write any privacy act info down or you're lookin for a lot of trouble and legal problems. When in doubt, ask the M.D. you're shadowing.

But anyway, is there anything convincing you can say to civilian docs to let them feel more comfortable with someone shadowing them?

What can a shadower do that could cause a lawsuit during a patient visit? (please exclude the obvious like privacy act info and the exagerations of a 1 in a million chance the shadower will go insane on the patient or something)

 

[YellowDiamond]

I know this is probably hard to judge, but do you think increasing my volunteer hours to around 150 from 100 before applying this summer would make my application noticeably stronger? I have recently started shadowing and am very much enjoying it. The doctor is very nice and takes the time to explain exactly what's going on after we see patients; I prefer this greatly over volunteering and find it to have much more meaning.

 

[crazycooljoel]

I know this is probably hard to judge, but do you think increasing my volunteer hours to around 150 from 100 before applying this summer would make my application noticeably stronger? I have recently started shadowing and am very much enjoying it. The doctor is very nice and takes the time to explain exactly what's going on after we see patients; I prefer this greatly over volunteering and find it to have much more meaning.

Well it can't hurt, but what will help is having experience shadowing more than one or two docs. That way you get to see the different ways doctors interact with patients, you will learn more also. I don't know if that part will help with med school but it will help later.

 

[roflcakes887]

clinical experience is over-rated.

 

[MuscleCrunch]

clinical experience is over-rated.

Thank you.

 

[Red Leader]

Honestly, you're providing a vital service to the patient and to the hospital; someone has to move the patients, and college volunteers are the lowest people on the totem pole. Do you actually learn anything that teaches you anything about what it's like to be a doctor or a med student? No, of course not, but it shows an adcom that you care about patients on some level. If you're not willing/capable of doing THAT, why would they let you touch patients as a med student?

By all means, if you can find something better, do so... but if that's what you've can get, run with it.

....what? You know another great trait doctors should have? Honesty. Now let me ask you, do you honestly feel this shows you care about patients? You are doing it only because you think if you don't you will be looked down upon by adcoms. "Spin" is just another work for "bull****" which is another word for "lying."

clinical experience is over-rated.

I agree. But like I said, its a hoop you gotta jump through and we all will do some of the jumping. My main concern is that some people here think 10000 hours of pushing a guy around in a wheelchair makes them special and can get them into a top tier school. That is a misleading perception of what your application should be.

 

[Hill Country]

In regards to this, I have a couple docs that let me shadow them once in a while, but i'm military and do it in the base hospital, they're all about helping and mentoring future med students. As soon as I go to any hospital off base they turn me down in seconds. They worry about possible lawsuits for having someone shadow them. The only other way for clinicals at off base hospitals in my area is to be in a nursing program. But the Docs I shadow are awesome, they let me use the stethescopes on patients, look in the ears, cover some of the EKG patterns, and explain whats going on. The patients are all cool for the most part, the docs just let them know i'm shadowing and get an "ok" from them and it's all good. (I understand verbal consent doesn't mean much in the civilian world). I keep a notebook that I write all my notes in for different patient scenarios. This should help me keep record of my clinical hours and i'd like to know how many patients i've interacted with after so long. Plus I can always review my notes to stay familiar with certian situations/types of patient visits. And as a side note, if anyone else tries this when you do clinicals, don't write any privacy act info down or you're lookin for a lot of trouble and legal problems. When in doubt, ask the M.D. you're shadowing.

But anyway, is there anything convincing you can say to civilian docs to let them feel more comfortable with someone shadowing them?

What can a shadower do that could cause a lawsuit during a patient visit? (please exclude the obvious like privacy act info and the exagerations of a 1 in a million chance the shadower will go insane on the patient or something)

It depends on the doctor, some (like my own PCP), say no shadowing, no exceptions. Another PCP let me shadow, take BP's, and would leave me in the room with the patient to ask them any questions I had, it was a really good experience for me. Bottom line being, it varies from doctor to doctor. Also, some specialties lend themselves to more privacy than others. I.e. a guy trying to shadow an OB/GYN will probably have a harder time finding a doc just because the nature of the specialty. Same for some PCPs, a lot of them talk about very personal things with patients and sometimes it wouldn't be appropriate to have a shadow there. As for what you can say, just be as polite and professional as you can, I sent letters directly to their offices with a request to shadow them and all of them agreed to do it. And if one turns you down don't worry, there's plenty of doctors in this country, patience and persevearance will be your best assets.

 

[Bacchus]

ok see I thought that's what she said too gotta be close enough to "smell them."

I dunno how YOU guys are all wheeling patients around but I do not really smell them or anything. Also please tell me how I can spin a mundane task such as pushing a wheelchair into some worthwhile experience that it clearly is not. I think the adcoms will appreciate it more if I just call it out for what it is and don't waste their time with BS.

Talk to the patients. Done.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

My question is... if you have a 4.0, and let's say you do well on the MCAT, is not having much clinical experience (~35 hours in the ER) really gonna hurt your chances so much?

Yes.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Honestly, pre-med clinical experience is hard to come by.

No it's not.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

clinical experience is over-rated.

Why? You don't think that people who want to be doctors should know how they feel about patients before getting to med school? The purpose of clinical experience is so you don't get students who decide medicine is a great field, take seat in med school and then find out they can't tolerate being around sick people in the third year.

 

[Bacchus]

Why? You don't think that people who want to be doctors should know how they feel about patients before getting to med school? The purpose of clinical experience is so you don't get students who decide medicine is a great field, take seat in med school and then find out they can't tolerate being around sick people in the third year.

Its not even this. If you want to get in, you'll do it, the majority of the time.

 

[CanHasNaps]

No it's not.

Yes, it can be, especially if the place you are looking to do said clinical experience is actually up to date on HIPPA. Pre-meds aren't covered under the teaching clause that allows medical students to see and discuss patients.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Yes, it can be, especially if the place you are looking to do said clinical experience is actually up to date on HIPPA. Pre-meds aren't covered under the teaching clause that allows medical students to see and discuss patients.

That's only for shadowing. If your hospital won't allow you to shadow, then volunteer a few hours every week. Thousands of pre-meds do it every year. It won't kill you.

 

[CanHasNaps]

That's only for shadowing. If your hospital won't allow you to shadow, then volunteer a few hours every week. Thousands of pre-meds do it every year. It won't kill you.

Thanks, but I'm already a medical student. So having already gone through all of this, I do realize the difference, and I agree about the volunteering. I still maintain that it's not always the easiest experience to acquire, whether it is volunteering or shadowing. Especially if you are not near a hospital with a volunteer program.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Thanks, but I'm already a student.

That was advice directed at the OP. I should have said "it won't kill the OP". Sorry.

 

[CanHasNaps]

That was advice directed at the OP. I should have said "it won't kill the OP". Sorry.

No problem 🙂

 

[LizzyM]

Honestly, you're providing a vital service to the patient and to the hospital; someone has to move the patients, and college volunteers are the lowest people on the totem pole. Do you actually learn anything that teaches you anything about what it's like to be a doctor or a med student? No, of course not, but it shows an adcom that you care about patients on some level. If you're not willing/capable of doing THAT, why would they let you touch patients as a med student?

By all means, if you can find something better, do so... but if that's what you've can get, run with it.

Would you believe that a volunteer wheeled me out of the hospital about a month ago? I asked & he said he was "pre-pharmacy" (I didn't really believe him.). Here's what I think you can practice when transporting patients:

Attention to detail. The volunteer didn't pay much attention to my limb that was injured and managed to run into things that caused me some big time hurt. If you can't operate a wheelchair, should we trust you with other medical equipment?

Small talk. Patients are often bored to tears. If you can make some small talk about the weather or whatever (the patient hasn't been outside in awhile and might like to know what its like outside).

A willing spirit. There is a lot of scut in the hospital. Someone needs to do it. A cheerful spirit of service goes a long way in making a patients hospital stay a pleasant one.