Clinical Program Dilemma

[timwatley]

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It seems like every school has a 'Great Clinical' program according to various SDN posts.

I have an interview at Creighton coming up and I've heard amazing things about their program. Yet I have a USC interview coming up and I remember last cycle during my interview they told me they have a superior clinical program. OHSU is supposed to have a great clinic as well. So is Louisville.

In a perfect world I'd get accepted to all the schools above.

How do you weed through the hype and rate the clinic just by interviewing and checking it out?

 

[UCLAzy]

i think the best way to determine if it's got what you want is to go to each one. then you can really say: 'wow, that was the best' it'll take 12 years but so worth it

 

[timwatley]

i think the best way to determine if it's got what you want is to go to each one. then you can really say: 'wow, that was the best' it'll take 12 years but so worth it

Might try that. Main goal is to get as much practice in the clinic as possible. Girlfriend likes USC but I'd like to avoid that price tag if possible.

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

It seems like every school has a 'Great Clinical' program according to various SDN posts.

Which is exactly why there is no official ranking for dental schools. 😉

 

[A6project]

I have heard so much great things about Creighton. It is one of the best in the nation. Just look at the sheer number of patients per year. I sure hope to get in there and its super cheap as well.

In my opinions, UoP, ASDOH, Creighton will be top 5 clinical schools in the nation. (temple, tufts, and UMD fight for the last 2 spots)

 

[timwatley]

I have heard so much great things about Creighton. It is one of the best in the nation. Just look at the sheer number of patients per year. I sure hope to get in there and its super cheap as well.

In my opinions, UoP, ASDOH, Creighton will be top 5 clinical schools in the nation. (temple, tufts, and UMD fight for the last 2 spots)

How did you find the patients per year info? Yeah I'm really excited to interview there and check things out. Good luck to you as well

 

[A6project]

How did you find the patients per year info? Yeah I'm really excited to interview there and check things out. Good luck to you as well

the school webpages

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

I have heard so much great things about Creighton. It is one of the best in the nation. Just look at the sheer number of patients per year. I sure hope to get in there and its super cheap as well.

In my opinions, UoP, ASDOH, Creighton will be top 5 clinical schools in the nation. (temple, tufts, and UMD fight for the last 2 spots)

What?
"The School of Dentistry is unique in that it does not have any graduate specialty programs. With over 58,000 patient visits to the dental clinic each year, Creighton dental students are provided with a diverse clinical experience. Dental graduates are able to coordinate, with confidence, all phases of comprehensive dental care while providing directly a wide variety of general oral health care services."


That kind of seems like its on the low side compared to what other schools boast about unless I'm looking at the wrong page? If I remember correctly, uconn likes to brag about its 139,000 pt vists per year.

 

[dmdluffy]

What?
"The School of Dentistry is unique in that it does not have any graduate specialty programs. With over 58,000 patient visits to the dental clinic each year, Creighton dental students are provided with a diverse clinical experience. Dental graduates are able to coordinate, with confidence, all phases of comprehensive dental care while providing directly a wide variety of general oral health care services."


That kind of seems like its on the low side compared to what other schools boast about unless I'm looking at the wrong page? If I remember correctly, uconn likes to brag about its 139,000 pt vists per year.

More like UConn inflates it's numbers to 139K a year. That's an insane amount of patients. 58K patients seen by dental students alone is pretty reasonable.

 

[A6project]

okay my bad for not mentioning for having no specialty programs. what else u got for me. it was my personal opinion.

 

[UltimateHombre]

More like UConn inflates it's numbers to 139K a year. That's an insane amount of patients. 58K patients seen by dental students alone is pretty reasonable.

139K seems pretty huge... especially considering UCONN only has 39 seats per class!

 

[dmdluffy]

Exactly. I remember someone commenting about how the figure represents how many total patients UConn sees during the year which happens to include the dental school. But this number likely represents patients any other medical oriented programs they have.

 

[AllahIsGreater]

NYU has 350,000 + patients yearly. Hands down simply an A.M.A.Z.I.N.G school. no matter where u go ur gonna pay. but wow there clinic was just WOW.

 

[DentalJedi]

Detroit Mercy gets a lot more than that too. A couple of people I've talked to interviewed at Creighton and they all said it was just "ok."

 

[timwatley]

Detroit Mercy gets a lot more than that too. A couple of people I've talked to interviewed at Creighton and they all said it was just "ok."

Interesting. I heard their clinic is out dated and maybe that rubs people the wrong way. They are supposed to be one of the only schools that turns patients away. You can also do implants and other advanced procedures. I'll just have to see when I'm there.

 

[amalgamgrillz]

I have heard so much great things about Creighton. It is one of the best in the nation. Just look at the sheer number of patients per year. I sure hope to get in there and its super cheap as well.

In my opinions, UoP, ASDOH, Creighton will be top 5 clinical schools in the nation. (temple, tufts, and UMD fight for the last 2 spots)

From what I've heard (and correct me if I'm wrong), but some interviewees who interviewed there said that they don't use mannequins or something? How do you learn in pre-clinic.. lol

 

[A6project]

on a regular chair and desk lol... i'm not sure how this will work out cuz they don't have a sim lab (they are getting one for next yr, yet it won't replace a regular chair and a desk.) Yet students comes out of the school with great clinical skills. So i guess it somehow works for them.

The student tour guy told me that he regrets coming to Creighton a little bit b/c classes are tough and he wants to endo. But if he wanted to do GP, he would come here again in a heartbeat.
I just wanna do a GP. so that is good enough for me.


I feel like I'm promoting Creighton too much but other schools are awesome too. At the end of the day, I'll go anywhere I get accepted. 🙂

 

[dantemac]

IF you want to assess the clinical strength of a school, observe and ask a few things on your tour. Do not read a post on SDN about it....

1) Observe: Are the clinics nice? Renovated? Would you want to be a patient there, need be?
2) Ask: Do the students enjoy/benefit from using the technology? (Not: Does the technology look nice and shiny. That's a recruiting tool)
3) Observe: Are the clinics well-stocked with patients? Is the waiting room: empty, full, over-crowded? Ask: Is this a normal day? Observe: Are the students in the clinics busy, or sitting in the hygiene chair with their study books open?
4) Ask: What is the patient disappointment rate? Is there a patient screening process? Are there financial counselors to assist with billing?
5) Ask: Will I see enough different types of cases here? Will I be well-trained (relatively) when I graduate?

Tangential issues: (In my opinion they are tangential and you shouldn't worry about them now, they may be huge considerations for you.)

1) Would you have to recruit your own patients, are are there faculty that will assign them to you?
2) Will the post-grad clinics be taking cases from you?
3) If my patient refuses to pay, would I have to for them?
4) Are the patients nice or thankful?


For all these smaller issues, just assume the best, or at least that it will work for your education, unless there is a salient problem. For example, every school with post-grad clinics of course is going to take some cases. They aren't going to let their advanced programs die at your feet because you want a better comp care regiment.

 

[amalgamgrillz]

IF you want to assess the clinical strength of a school, observe and ask a few things on your tour. Do not read a post on SDN about it....

1) Observe: Are the clinics nice? Renovated? Would you want to be a patient there, need be?

Agreed. Pre-clinic can be in a cave for all I care, as long as the main clinic, where I'll be seeing patients, is fully equipped, well-staffed, etc.
2) Ask: Do the students enjoy/benefit from using the technology? (Not: Does the technology look nice and shiny. That's a recruiting tool)

Agreed. At one school, the dean told our group not to pick their school based on their new, shiny toys. Don't be fooled by the glitz and glamour of their school or any school, because it doesn't matter if you're doing a class II prep with the latest handpiece vs. a 5-year old hand piece...chances are you won't be able to afford the new stuff for your own practice, anyway. Don't choose it for the new mannequin heads - you're going to struggle transitioning with real-patients, anyway. Instead, pick them for their teaching philosophies, clinical opportunities, faculty mentors, research opportunities, etc. Things that will actually make a difference to your understanding of dentistry.

3) Observe: Are the clinics well-stocked with patients? Is the waiting room: empty, full, over-crowded? Ask: Is this a normal day? Observe: Are the students in the clinics busy, or sitting in the hygiene chair with their study books open?
4) Ask: What is the patient disappointment rate? Is there a patient screening process? Are there financial counselors to assist with billing?
5) Ask: Will I see enough different types of cases here? Will I be well-trained (relatively) when I graduate?

Tangential issues: (In my opinion they are tangential and you shouldn't worry about them now, they may be huge considerations for you.)

1) Would you have to recruit your own patients, are are there faculty that will assign them to you?
2) Will the post-grad clinics be taking cases from you?
3) If my patient refuses to pay, would I have to for them?
4) Are the patients nice or thankful?


For all these smaller issues, just assume the best, or at least that it will work for your education, unless there is a salient problem. For example, every school with post-grad clinics of course is going to take some cases. They aren't going to let their advanced programs die at your feet because you want a better comp care regiment.

Great list! I would also throw in:

1) What are the clinical requirements like? If they're rigorous, you'll probably be stressed as eff, but you'll be a great clinician. Is it like BU, where you can do your root canal competency on a fake tooth? lol
2) How many patients does the clinic see per year?
3) How are the outreach opportunities? (At these outreach places, you're doing much more work at a faster pace...really good learning experience, because you're thrown into the pit and aren't checked at each step)
4) What's the faculty:student ratio in the clinic (ask the students if they have to wait long to get faculty to check their work)

 

[timwatley]

Good point about the new, fancy equipment.

I think most undergrads are starting to realize you can't get a job with a piece of paper that says you graduated college and no relevent experience. Although not true necessarily for dental school grads, the more clinic exposure the better. I'm not in a position to be super picky or anything but if I get 2 options it's nice to be able to make the better choice.

 

[A6project]

can't agree more.
dantemac and a.grillz are probably only a few on SDN who actually understand what is hype about dental schools and dental profession and what is not. you guys are sharp. being able to see what's important and to see the reality beyond what dental schools try to sell.

 

[YoHomey]

Generally schools without specialty programs will offer better clinical cases. For example, if a patient needs an upper 3rd molar root canal, that case is going to the Endodontic specialty student.

 

[dmdluffy]

Agreed, you'll get more complex cases that would normally be referred out

 

[doc toothache]

.

 

[doc toothache]

Is there a school that claims to be second rate?

 

[YoHomey]

Schools are either going to be good at clinical or good at didactics. School that try to be good at both wind up compromising and being mediocre at both.

 

[doc toothache]

Schools are either going to be good at clinical or good at didactics. School that try to be good at both wind up compromising and being mediocre at both.

This conclusion comes after very extensive research.

 

[MowgliR]

I said this in a previous post too: # of patient visits is very different from # of patients. UConn has 139k patient visits.

 

[dantemac]

Great list! I would also throw in:

There is a reason I left these off...

1) What are the clinical requirements like? Almost every school/student will tell you something generic like: "they are reasonable" and/or "they will prepare you" or "most everyone graduates" or "You'll be ready for the boards".

I think the requirements question is just a bandwagon question everyone wants to ask. Assume the school will prepare you.
2) How many patients does the clinic see per year?
Irrelevant; look at trends, if anything. Relative to the class size, if the school has post grad clinics, etc. But, if the school saw a record number of patients last year, that could be a good sign.

3) How are the outreach opportunities? (At these outreach places, you're doing much more work at a faster pace...really good learning experience, because you're thrown into the pit and aren't checked at each step) I agree with this one. You don't have to inquire in the clinics, though.
4) What's the faculty:student ratio in the clinic (ask the students if they have to wait long to get faculty to check their work)

Again, all schools will give a generic answer: "Oh, it's bad sometimes, but mostly it's not a problem" or "It's really annoying, but it makes you ask the international students or older students for help and connect". A school will never answer this negatively. A student might, but that is an isolated opinion.

 

[YoHomey]

This conclusion comes after very extensive research.

Name one school that's good at both.

 

[mi2ni]

Name one school that's good at both.

UCONN
--didactic: shared classes with med students
--clinical: small class size (D-1 to D4 =45 x 4), good patient pool, good clinic with many chairs

 

[doc toothache]

Name one school that's good at both.

Name one that is mediocre on both counts for the reason you suggested.

 

[Bereno]

Haha, UConn has a strong didactic curriculum, that is not really debated much. However, the 139K patient visits is exactly that. Patient visits. However, even if you say that each patient visits an average of 4 times, thats still about 35k patients a year. This is pretty good considering they have such a small class size with super nice facilities... Are they the best at clinical - no. Are they good at clinical - definitely.

On a side note, i would hope that NYU has lots of patients. With **** tons of students (like 400 per year including the international students) they NEED that many. I would go there, but they are still just too big for my tastes.

 

[doc toothache]

Haha, UConn has a strong didactic curriculum, that is not really debated much. However, the 139K patient visits is exactly that. Patient visits. However, even if you say that each patient visits an average of 4 times, thats still about 35k patients a year. This is pretty good considering they have such a small class size with super nice facilities... Are they the best at clinical - no. Are they good at clinical - definitely.

A patient would be pretty lucky if, by the 4th visit, he/she has had a prophy let alone other treatment.

 

[amalgamgrillz]

Great list! I would also throw in:

There is a reason I left these off...
There's a reason I included them:

1) What are the clinical requirements like? Almost every school/student will tell you something generic like: "they are reasonable" and/or "they will prepare you" or "most everyone graduates" or "You'll be ready for the boards".

I think the requirements question is just a bandwagon question everyone wants to ask. Assume the school will prepare you.

This isn't something you can just assume. Like, if you went to BU and did your one RC competency on a fake tooth..that's a little sketch compared to other schools who require 10 on real teeth. Or if you're required to do 20 extractions versus 65. What you're required to do differs from school to school; the level of "preparation" is something you should inquire about because the requirements could be overkill or underkill. I'd personally want to know what to expect.

2) How many patients does the clinic see per year?
Irrelevant; look at trends, if anything. Relative to the class size, if the school has post grad clinics, etc. But, if the school saw a record number of patients last year, that could be a good sign.

The # of patients the clinic sees/year is definitely something to consider (yes, of course look at the trends over the past few years). If they struggle provide patients to their students, that's going to be stressful for clinic. You wouldn't want to have to start paying people to be your patients so you can finish your requirements.

3) How are the outreach opportunities? (At these outreach places, you're doing much more work at a faster pace...really good learning experience, because you're thrown into the pit and aren't checked at each step) I agree with this one. You don't have to inquire in the clinics, though.

4) What's the faculty:student ratio in the clinic (ask the students if they have to wait long to get faculty to check their work)

Again, all schools will give a generic answer: "Oh, it's bad sometimes, but mostly it's not a problem" or "It's really annoying, but it makes you ask the international students or older students for help and connect". A school will never answer this negatively. A student might, but that is an isolated opinion.
Again, all schools will give a generic answer: "Oh, it's bad sometimes, but mostly it's not a problem" or "It's really annoying, but it makes you ask the international students or older students for help and connect". A school will never answer this negatively. A student might, but that is an isolated opinion.

All my suggestions were for asking the dental students (take whatever the faculty say with a grain of salt). My tour guides gave great, honest feedback so far. Every school is going to have their blips in clinic time, but I want to know if I'm gonna be waiting for 1.5 hours to get a rubber dam check, simply because it's a 1:12 ratio in clinic

Just my 2 cents.