Clinical research vs. research

[moto_za]

Hi guys!

I was wondering if med schools value clinical research (like a prospective study that includes patient contct) more than basic science research (like lab) work? Which is more important to do as an undegrad other than saying what you enjoy! And also, does this depend on the schools and could clinical research count as clinical experience as well? Sorry for all the questions, but any advice and opinions will be greatly appreciated!!

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[Depakote]

Hi guys!

I was wondering if med schools value clinical research (like a prospective study that includes patient contct) more than basic science research (like lab) work? Which is more important to do as an undegrad other than saying what you enjoy! And also, does this depend on the schools and could clinical research count as clinical experience as well? Sorry for all the questions, but any advice and opinions will be greatly appreciated!!

I was told by one medical school that they would prefer it if I did clinical research over "bench work". Then again, this is just one medical school...

 

[moto_za]

thanks! anyone else?

I was told by one medical school that they would prefer it if I did clinical research over "bench work". Then again, this is just one medical school...

 

[moto_za]

ANYONE!!?

thanks! anyone else?

 

[Lanced]

thanks! anyone else?

My thought is that clinical research kills "two birds" -- research and patient contact. On the other hand, there are many more SOMs that emphasize lab research -- i.e. they'll have 10 PhD programs relating to basic sciences, and only 1-2 relating to clinical research (epi or biostats for example).

I've NEVER had an interest in lab research and at first thought it meant I shouldn't go to med school. After working with some MDs and meeting more that have similar interests, I realize that is completely not the case.

Further ramble, I think in terms of efficiency, as a society we would be better served to divert some basic science research to clinical research. For example, many things are known that are not well disseminated to clinical practice -- a topic with growing interest (evidence based medicine, preventive, etc.). In fact Stanford has a whole department -- Translational Research in Medicine.

 

[johnny pollen]

Hmm. How about research that doesn't require much patient contact? In my case, I'm drowning in medical records and interview/field records, but never actually grope, prod, or chat with a patient.

Should I cut and run, and get myself to a clinical research gig? Or do you think this itself might be useful work for a CV?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I've done clinical research, I'm currently working on lit review "clinical research", and I'm tossing around several ideas for follow up clinical and related bench research projects. My advice is simply to do what you find most interesting. The ability to impart a love for your topic is going to mean FAR more to admissions officers than the "importance" of clinical vs. bench research.

 

[rcd]

How do you even find a clinical research job?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Personally I just came up with ideas and then sought out a doc who had similar interests and go "Want to help me out with this?"

As for a paid clinical research position? Those are few and far between for someone without at VERY least a bachelors, and often times they require a masters degree.

 

[moto_za]

Try emailing docs and asking about getting invloved.

Personally I just came up with ideas and then sought out a doc who had similar interests and go "Want to help me out with this?"

As for a paid clinical research position? Those are few and far between for someone without at VERY least a bachelors, and often times they require a masters degree.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hmm. How about research that doesn't require much patient contact?

Bear in mind that clinical research does not count as clinical experience no matter how much patient contact is involved (at least according to several adcoms). I know a few people who fell into this trap and learned (at interviews) that their patient intensive projects didn't satisfy clinical exposure expectations of certain schools. So you still have to do the latter (via volunteering, shadowing, healthcare employment, etc). Thus I wouldn't worry that you get no patient contact in your research -- you need to get it elsewhere anyhow.

Most schools consider research to be of value whether it is bench or clinical.

 

[Lanced]

I've done clinical research, I'm currently working on lit review "clinical research", and I'm tossing around several ideas for follow up clinical and related bench research projects. My advice is simply to do what you find most interesting. The ability to impart a love for your topic is going to mean FAR more to admissions officers than the "importance" of clinical vs. bench research.

Big ditto. I was an unpaid research assistant the past 18 months but I got to do a lot including co-author. I was an absolutely amazing experience, changed my career direction (still MD). When I began interviewing for paid positions I got the feedback that the way I was able to speak about my experience was very impressive -- I attribute that to my interest in what I was doing rather than "interviewing skills".

I live near Stanford, so there is a ton of research, particularly clinical, around here. I just googled and stumbled on the ad for an RA, hooked up like that. I ened up being one of the more mature applicants so I was able to become the coordinator and co-author, etc. I found my current job through the Stanford Jobs website, just submitting applications the old fashion way. I also received some interviews by looking up researchers by field of interest, and contacting them directly. What often works well is to ask for an informational interview, discuss your interests and ask if there's anyone they recommend you speak with -- often they will want to help you find a job since they can see your interest in a particular field.

In closing, I'd say patient contact is a nice plus, but not necessary. I depends on what you want out of the experience. Same with authorship, leadership, etc. If you're just looking for the "check mark" so you can apply to research oriented schools, then most experiences for 1+ years will do fine I THINK.

Hope that helps...

 

[moto_za]

Once you get a clinical research position, is it rude to ask if its possible to get published or carry on a project that you can eventually publish??

Big ditto. I was an unpaid research assistant the past 18 months but I got to do a lot including co-author. I was an absolutely amazing experience, changed my career direction (still MD). When I began interviewing for paid positions I got the feedback that the way I was able to speak about my experience was very impressive -- I attribute that to my interest in what I was doing rather than "interviewing skills".

I live near Stanford, so there is a ton of research, particularly clinical, around here. I just googled and stumbled on the ad for an RA, hooked up like that. I ened up being one of the more mature applicants so I was able to become the coordinator and co-author, etc. I found my current job through the Stanford Jobs website, just submitting applications the old fashion way. I also received some interviews by looking up researchers by field of interest, and contacting them directly. What often works well is to ask for an informational interview, discuss your interests and ask if there's anyone they recommend you speak with -- often they will want to help you find a job since they can see your interest in a particular field.

In closing, I'd say patient contact is a nice plus, but not necessary. I depends on what you want out of the experience. Same with authorship, leadership, etc. If you're just looking for the "check mark" so you can apply to research oriented schools, then most experiences for 1+ years will do fine I THINK.

Hope that helps...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

No, in fact I've openly stated on a couple of occassions that the options are:
1. I get publications as a result of my work.
2. I get paid something more than minimum wage
3. I don't work in that particular lab.

 

[ADeadLois]

From experience, getting clinical research positions where you're doing actual patient-contact research and not scut-work is diffuclt. Too often, these places are LOADED with residents eager to get publications, so it's difficult to get a gig if you're pre-med.

I know this from experience, as I've worked in a research lab for 8 summers but was relagated to scut work. I finally proposed a research study that was well-received by a few docs, but it got kicked under the table in favor of other projects.

I would definitely look at non-teaching hospitals for clinical research experience

 

[moto_za]

I contacted a doc who said he will give me a branch of his project, so that I can work on myself invovling patient contact. Can I eventually publish this or something? Any particular steps I have to take to get to the publication level?

From experience, getting clinical research positions where you're doing actual patient-contact research and not scut-work is diffuclt. Too often, these places are LOADED with residents eager to get publications, so it's difficult to get a gig if you're pre-med.

I know this from experience, as I've worked in a research lab for 8 summers but was relagated to scut work. I finally proposed a research study that was well-received by a few docs, but it got kicked under the table in favor of other projects.

I would definitely look at non-teaching hospitals for clinical research experience

 

[ADeadLois]

I contacted a doc who said he will give me a branch of his project, so that I can work on myself invovling patient contact. Can I eventually publish this or something? Any particular steps I have to take to get to the publication level?

If it's a branch of his current project, then you can be a co-author on his study. Whether or not you'll get an exclusive publication will depend on the breadth of the study.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

If you write the paper (or more than 50% of it) then you should get first author on the publication. If you hand over your data and they write the paper, then all bets are off. It's also just generally bad form to try to publish a paper without informing those who are your superiors in regards to the project.

 

[rgerwin]

If you want a clinical research position, go to Boston. Tons of them Also, for those who got scut work as a summer intern, duh. You're an intern.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Once you get a clinical research position, is it rude to ask if its possible to get published or carry on a project that you can eventually publish??

It depends on the context...like you don't want to look for a research position and have "being published" as part of your criteria. If you work long enough with a professor though, I'de say over a year, you'll start to figure out that every project in the lab is leading up to something that will eventually be published. That's what they do for a living. They really appreciate volunteer help and understand that we all want to be published, so you don't really have to ask..it should come naturally, especially if you work for the same professor long enough. It's not like it hurts them to throw your name on an article, you just have to work for it. In other words, you'll eventually know what projects your professor is planning to publish and then you can ask to be involved with those...but you probably won't have to.

 

[seabreeze811]

Hey Guys,

I was just wondering, was it hard for any of you to find paid clinical research positions? I'm currently applying to a LOT of positions, but so far I haven't had any luck....any comments? suggestions?

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Hey Guys,

I was just wondering, was it hard for any of you to find paid clinical research positions? I'm currently applying to a LOT of positions, but so far I haven't had any luck....any comments? suggestions?

Comments: Yes. Sugestions: Good luck. 😀

 

[ADeadLois]

Hey Guys,

I was just wondering, was it hard for any of you to find paid clinical research positions? I'm currently applying to a LOT of positions, but so far I haven't had any luck....any comments? suggestions?

It's very, very difficult to get if you don't have some sort of advanced degree. Residents like to try to get publications so they'll scoop up any opportunities at clinical research.

 

[moto_za]

seabreeze: I hear what you are going through! Don't give up, as I had to e-mail tons of docs to finally find something clinical. My recommendation to you is: if you find a doc that you are interested in working with and considering money is not a big issue, I would ask to work for research credit. Some docs don't get too much funding and it is much easier to get involved that way and eventually you could possible apply to other research grant programs through your school if you really need some money. But then again, i am just talking from my experiences. let me know if you have any more q's

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Hey Guys,

I was just wondering, was it hard for any of you to find paid clinical research positions? I'm currently applying to a LOT of positions, but so far I haven't had any luck....any comments? suggestions?

The only pay I MIGHT receive for my work is for the next project and that is only if I get the funding we applied for, which would include a small stipend. But then again I can clear at least $50K a year as an RT, so why should I be concerned with wanting to find a paid research position that will probably pay just above minimum wage?

 

[g3pro]

I always thought that doing research in laboratories and coming up with your own project had more worth and used more intellectual capability for an undergraduate biology major than tagging along with an MD doing clinical trials where you don't have the clinical training to be effective. That's just my opinion though.

 

[ADeadLois]

I always thought that doing research in laboratories and coming up with your own project had more worth and used more intellectual capability for an undergraduate biology major than tagging along with an MD doing clinical trials where you don't have the clinical training to be effective. That's just my opinion though.

I'm inclined to agree. First, it would be next to impossible to find an opportunity wherer a pre-med would get the chance to be a lead author on a clinical research trial. Those sort of trials bring in big bucks for hospitals, and there are a lot of factors, medical or otherwise, that would be difficult to entrust in a pre-med. It just doesn't happen. Of course, it's definitely possible to get authorship, but it'll likely be scut work.

Retrospective/database studies would be a more likely possibility, but still very difficult.

A project on a topic that interests you, medical, laboratory or otherwise, where you get creative control of its direction is a more likely opportunity, and one that shows more research-prowess than scut work on a clinical trial. That's just my opinion.

 

[moto_za]

I am not sure, but I was thinking it depends on the school or program you are applying too (Md/Phd) or primary school.

I personally don't enjoy bench work, but love clinical related work so that it one main reason I went after clinical research and thought having experience with patients involving research will kinda be like "killing two birds with one stone" if thats how the saying goes. Kinda like clinical + research, but I am not trrying to say that premeds who do clinical research don't need any other type of medically related experience(volunteer, shadow, etc)

I'm inclined to agree. First, it would be next to impossible to find an opportunity wherer a pre-med would get the chance to be a lead author on a clinical research trial. Those sort of trials bring in big bucks for hospitals, and there are a lot of factors, medical or otherwise, that would be difficult to entrust in a pre-med. It just doesn't happen. Of course, it's definitely possible to get authorship, but it'll likely be scut work.

Retrospective/database studies would be a more likely possibility, but still very difficult.

A project on a topic that interests you, medical, laboratory or otherwise, where you get creative control of its direction is a more likely opportunity, and one that shows more research-prowess than scut work on a clinical trial. That's just my opinion.

 

[ADeadLois]

I am not sure, but I was thinking it depends on the school or program you are applying too (Md/Phd) or primary school.

I personally don't enjoy bench work, but love clinical related work so that it one main reason I went after clinical research and thought having experience with patients involving research will kinda be like "killing two birds with one stone" if thats how the saying goes. Kinda like clinical + research, but I am not trrying to say that premeds who do clinical research don't need any other type of medically related experience(volunteer, shadow, etc)

My point is that it would be very, very difficult if not impossible to get a clinical research gig as a pre-med where you're doing little more than scut work, let alone a chance at lead authorship. Clinical research projects typically take years and have a lot of money and business interests behind them.

If you're really interested in clinical research, though, there's no reason you can't get involved with a doc, although it will probably have to be low on the totem-pole for the time being (data entering, database management, etc.). Scope things out, and maybe you'll see a project that you could potentially work while in med school or residency where you'll have the resources and credentials to follow through with it. Getting to know people now will put you at a tremendous advantage later on.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

For a typical 20 or 21 year old premed, yes, I would be inclined to agree that they have a snowball's chance in Hell of getting anything approaching real responsibility for clinical research. Now that is not to say that a few of us don't have the capability and determination to get ourselves into such a position, but most of you all are jolly well f--king deluding yourself if you think you scant undergraduate education is going to in any way qualify you to lead a meaningful research project of any significance.