CodeBlu/Class of 2016 School of Medicine Admissions and Curriculum

[CodeBlu]

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Now... since there have been an abundance of trolls in Pre-Allo lately, let's try to get some serious dialogue going. My fellow late night 2016ers have been discussing the frivolity of the current admissions process and what we'd like to see in a medical school curriculum.

WARNING: This is long... but should make it interesting for your preparation for interviews and applications. Should provide some insight into learning how to evaluate curriculum models and ask certain types of questions to your interviews.

We'd love to hear your comments, suggestions and ideas. Something you don't like? Something missing... just post and discuss.

The ideal admissions process...

-Keep AMCAS the same as it is now.
-Have the student complete pre-reqs in biology, chem, physics, organic I, cell biology/physiology, biochemistry and statistics.
-They will write the MCAT, but it will not be weighed heavily in the admissions decision. More of a low screen (7s in each section with a minimum composite of 25). We are keeping the MCAT since our school of Medicine will not be the only school the applicants apply to. Thus, we would like to use their MCAT scores for a preliminary screen
-People with GPAs less than 3.3 without a steep upward trend will be recommended to complete a post-bacc (informal or formal) to prove they can handle the curriculum.
-Will have an admissions tracker like UMich (Best thing ever!) Will be completely transparent with the process. No qualms about discussing an application (after all, you're paying us to apply to our school) while the application is in progress.
-After applicants submit their primary AMCAS... a knowledge/problem solving based test on the pre-reqs... but that is unlike the MCAT will be presented to them to complete at a prometric testing center. I will call it the CTBT. This will be our secondary application, thus the fee for a secondary is eliminated but replaced with the cost of this test.

CTBT = Critical Thinking Based Test
About the CTBT, and why it is better.

First... why it is better. The MCAT claims to test critical thinking ability. But in reality, with enough practice you can "beat" the test. Doesn't mean you're prepared for medical school necessarily. The goal of the CTBT is to see if you can think on your feet, and integrate the knowledge you have, with brand new facts. And to form an argument for and against the material presented.

-Will resemble the current biological sciences of the MCAT with a bit of a twist. 2 sections, one on psychological principles (AKA a personality test), other will be a biochem/physiology/cell bio mash up.
-Tests some factual based knowledge.
-Most of the emphasis however is on taking information and being able to present it back to the examiner.

Example. Passage dealing with cystic fibrosis, describes etiology, molecular and genetic basis, pathology, treatment, relevant basic anatomy. Then shows a research article challenging previously accepted principles on cystic fibrosis. The candidate would have to argue for and against the new research much like the MCAT WS asks you to formulate a thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Evidence-Based Medicine FTW!

-There will be 4 such passages that incorporate all aspects of the pre-med curriculum and the thinking required to succeed in medicine.
-There will be 20 discrete questions that determine your ability to memorize random info. But this will be clearly outlined in a syllabus.
-20 minutes for each passage, and 1 minute for each of the discretes...100 minutes total.
-Then a short 30 question psychological assessment to determine personality type. Can't have too many INTJs and no ENFJs in one class.

This test would cost the applicants whatever it costs the school to implement it and design the questions.

Applicants who meet the minimum academic criteria, and score above the 70-80th percentile on the CTBT will be given first preference for interviews after a closer examination of their file/LORs. Then interviews will go out as space is available.

-Final step in the admissions process is the interview which will consist of an MMI and a 30 minute 1-on-1 faculty member interview. MMI for 90 minutes. With an optional 30 minute tour. And a 30 minute intro. This gives our interview day a total of 3 hours without lunch.

 

[CodeBlu]

Our M1 Curriculum...

CodeBlu School of Medicine Curriculum Outline

M1 Basic Medical Sciences Curriculum

One class at a time. One exam at a time. Learn it. Learn it well. Apply it to the real world.

All classes are pass/fail. Exams are taken on a computer, to prepare for the USMLE type of questions. Detailed score reports will be given to students, allowing them to see where they made mistakes, how long they spent on a question (much like the current MCAT practice test interface operates).

-First class is Molecular and Cellular Physiology. You can't teach someone medicine in today's modern world unless they understand genetics, receptor physiology, drug-receptor interactions. Most medical schools start from the macroscopic (gross anatomy) and then move microscopically. Here we lose the whole approach to treating our patient entirely, cura personalis if I may. Moving from the microscopic to the macroscopic, and keeping both in mind as we zoom out. Instead of zooming in and putting on the blinders, if you know what I mean.

-Histology/Embryology fundamentals next. On normal looking tissues, now that we fully understand the cell biology/physiology behind it all.

-Once you know embryology... Anatomy becomes a piece of cake. That's when we start a gross anatomy lab. This would be at the end of 1st semester, and carry through to second semester.

-Then Biochemistry would be taught, with a clinical application. Describing uses of clinical chemistry, aka what kind of machines we use, what we look for in diagnostic tests. Clearly there will be a week spent on reviewing the basics of transcription,translation etc.

-Now that we have anatomy, biochem, and histology. These are the building blocks of physiology. We can start doing Physiology for the rest of the year. Cover all the major systems and special senses like eyes and ear, with relationships drawn back to previously learned concepts.

-Finally, to end M1 we finish with a Food and Nutrition course. A few lectures on exercise physiology and diabetes (an emerging epidemic), and hypertension. Med students will spend 2 weeks learning how to cook healthy, and to instruct their patients on healthy lifestyle habits.

Clinical Curriculum of M1

-Fundamentals of patient interviewing from the 1st week of school. Have students talk to standardized patients and to learn the schema of physical diagnosis using inspection, palpation, percussion, auscultation (IPPA)

-Focus on all the NORMAL stuff first. How you gonna tell what's abnormal if you don't know what normal is?

-Have an OSCE (Observed Structured Clinical Exam) at the end of first year, pass/fail. Be able to take a history, and perform basic exams like a cranial nerve exam, abdominal exam, and a MSK screening exam.

-All the while, using the patient centered approach. Remembering the microscopic, but also keeping in mind the macroscopic. Why is that lab value the way it is? Environmental stresses, triggers, genetic factors considered as well. (House MD styles).

And that's M1 in a LONG nutshell.

 

[glikegrandpa]

And that's M1 in a LONG nutshell.

wouldn't it be a "large" nutshell?

 

[medicalmuscle]

-Finally, to end M1 we finish with a Food and Nutrition course. A few lectures on exercise physiology and diabetes (an emerging epidemic), and hypertension. Med students will spend 2 weeks learning how to cook healthy, and to instruct their patients on healthy lifestyle habits.

1.

what about doing human performance, bariatrics, diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia?

2.

why cooking healthy?

healthy lifestyle changes, imo.



good job, though.

seriously.

 

[Chemdude]

They will write the MCAT...

We now know CodeBlu's origins. He's either Canadian, British and/or South Asian.

 

[FlowRate]

wouldn't it be a "large" nutshell?

CodeBlu measures his nuts in length, not volume.


I feel like most of what he wrote is what is already done, for the most part. 😕 The MCAT really does include a lot of critical thinking and they're moving toward an even more critical-thinking side. Which I think is funny, because I hear med school's first two years are about memorizing a bunch of crap.

 

[paul411]

CodeBlu measures his nuts in length, not volume.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

We now know CodeBlu's origins. He's either Canadian, British and/or South Asian.

All three

 

[RookTookIt]

Too many tests. It's unreasonable to ask applicants to take multiple admissions tests. No need for CTBT.

CTBT = Critical Thinking Based Test
About the CTBT, and why it is better.

First... why it is better. The MCAT claims to test critical thinking ability. But in reality, with enough practice you can "beat" the test. Doesn't mean you're prepared for medical school necessarily.

The MCAT does test critical thinking. With enough practice you don't "beat the test" you become a better critical thinker.

 

[DrShazam]

I actually don't think AMCAS should remain the same. I feel like the transcript verification process and the actual application should be two separate entities. Most people have their transcripts in to AMCAS way before they actually hit the submit button, but because courses must be verified, applications get held up for 3-5 weeks from the submit date.

Imagine having your transcripts in early May, with courses getting verified in the normal three to four weeks, and and then whenever you submit you app, you are complete instantly and start receiving secondaries shortly thereafter.

 

[Buttermellow]

I actually don't think AMCAS should remain the same. I feel like the transcript verification process and the actual application should be two separate entities. Most people have their transcripts in to AMCAS way before they actually hit the submit button, but because courses must be verified, applications get held up for 3-5 weeks from the submit date.

Imagine having your transcripts in early May, with courses getting verified in the normal three to four weeks, and and then whenever you submit you app, you are complete instantly and start receiving secondaries shortly thereafter.

Very true. There's no reason to wait to verify the transcripts.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

CTBT = Critical Thinking Based Test
About the CTBT, and why it is better.

First... why it is better. The MCAT claims to test critical thinking ability. But in reality, with enough practice you can "beat" the test. Doesn't mean you're prepared for medical school necessarily. The goal of the CTBT is to see if you can think on your feet, and integrate the knowledge you have, with brand new facts. And to form an argument for and against the material presented.

-Will resemble the current biological sciences of the MCAT with a bit of a twist. 2 sections, one on psychological principles (AKA a personality test), other will be a biochem/physiology/cell bio mash up.
-Tests some factual based knowledge.
-Most of the emphasis however is on taking information and being able to present it back to the examiner.

Example. Passage dealing with cystic fibrosis, describes etiology, molecular and genetic basis, pathology, treatment, relevant basic anatomy. Then shows a research article challenging previously accepted principles on cystic fibrosis. The candidate would have to argue for and against the new research much like the MCAT WS asks you to formulate a thesis, antithesis, synthesis. Evidence-Based Medicine FTW!

-There will be 4 such passages that incorporate all aspects of the pre-med curriculum and the thinking required to succeed in medicine.
-There will be 20 discrete questions that determine your ability to memorize random info. But this will be clearly outlined in a syllabus.
-20 minutes for each passage, and 1 minute for each of the discretes...100 minutes total.
-Then a short 30 question psychological assessment to determine personality type. Can't have too many INTJs and no ENFJs in one class.

This test would cost the applicants whatever it costs the school to implement it and design the questions.

this whole idea is daft. and a personality test? really jesus christ man get a grip.

your efforts at curriculum creation is also pretty hard to take seriously - it'd be like me designing an airplane. neither flies. and both are merely poor imitations of what we've already seen.

 

[trypanosomiasis]

What about the secondary essays? If AMCAS stays the same (activities + 3 meaningful, but short, elaborations, and the PS), that's a small amount of space to try and cover your devotion to medicine. Would you extend the PS space, or the amount of space for activities? Add an additional essay to the primary, like on TMDSAS?

Plus there are some "intangibles" that can't be fully addressed without providing an extra space to elaborate. Some experiences just need more space.

The CTBT intrigues me, but I worry for folks in the humanities/arts who are applying, and probably wouldn't take a class like biochem or A&P until senior year. And would the CTBT be standardized for all schools? Or a different test for each school? That could get old fast... :-/

 

[CodeBlu]

What about the secondary essays? If AMCAS stays the same (activities + 3 meaningful, but short, elaborations, and the PS), that's a small amount of space to try and cover your devotion to medicine. Would you extend the PS space, or the amount of space for activities? Add an additional essay to the primary, like on TMDSAS?

Plus there are some "intangibles" that can't be fully addressed without providing an extra space to elaborate. Some experiences just need more space.

The CTBT intrigues me, but I worry for folks in the humanities/arts who are applying, and probably wouldn't take a class like biochem or A&P until senior year. And would the CTBT be standardized for all schools? Or a different test for each school? That could get old fast... :-/

I hate to sound trite... but most of our secondary essays are just confluent BS.... yeah some of it good. But most of it is fluff.

Our PS answers why medicine, and our activities show dedication to the field.

CTBT isn't standardized for all schools, just the one school. It's supposed to be a newer age thing.

Now... as far as not having A&P... it's a PRE-REQ... so it goes without saying that you should finish the pre-reqs first.

The humanities people will like the CTBT better IMO... the 4 passages I described are essentially 4 short essays. Ask any physician you shadow if he/she fills in bubbles on a patient note to make a diagnosis/treatment plan. They don't do this... they write it out. That's where I was trying to go with this.

 

[Narmerguy]

Code...you bored bro?

 

[CodeBlu]

Code...you bored bro?

Bro... so bored.

Summer heat wave... boss tells me to take the day off.

SDN gone wild. Just ran out of ice cream tho. Eff.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

SDN is better during the Fall/Spring. Too many high schools trolls on during the summer.

 

[Kangaroo Paw]

Code, I've actually developed quite the respect for you: you contribute a healthy, balanced diet of humorous, witty, sardonic, and encouraging posts on here, and they don't get old 🙂 However, I'm not sure that even your kick-arse House/Avatar avatar (see what I did there 😉) makes me really understand the point of this thread, lol. I don't mean to be horrible (I totally get the sentiments behind your "school of medicine"), but isn't a lot of what you posted already on the way to being incorporated into a lot of med school curricula? I also don't know if testing pre-meds on their knowledge of psychology/mastering the personality test is any better than testing them on their "verbal reasoning". Food for thought?

Slightly irrelevant thread or not, you're still a cool dude. Rock on👍

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I wouldn't be applying to your school - i know that.

I tend to bomb online tests if I can't do some prep work for them (I have a habit of bombing the first test of every semester too - here's hoping that changes for med school ). The idea of more tests for each application... just ughhhh. DO or Carib here i come!
Additionally, I don't learn well when everything is compressed (learning one subject at a time). I would just memorize everything i needed to know and then forget it a few weeks later. I guess your school and me wouldn't be a good fit. But I'm sure some people would like it...

also - why can't the CTBT just be incorporated into the MCAT? I don't see anything particularly special about it and why each school needs a unique test. I liked secondaries. it's weird BS to help them figure out if you are going to match with their school. Plus - it's silly to keep out students based on below 3.3 GPA and below 70% CTBT scores. Also, Personality test? HA! Bunch of bull. Those things always label me an introvert and yet, I consider myself a hyperactive people loving socialite (well - not really. But people joke that I know everyone because I love making friends)

 

[trypanosomiasis]

Ah, that explains CTBT better.

But isn't it true that as things stand, you can take your pre-reqs during your senior year, so you won't have finished these classes by secondary app and interview time? So would this be changed?

Like, for example, an English major may have gone through the Bio/G Chem/OChem/Physics necessary to complete the MCAT, so he/she could focus on his/her major concentration... but when applying to an individual school, he/she realizes, "Oh, I need to take BioChem and A&P!" he or she would then would add those courses for senior year classes. As things stand now, you're free to do that, because AMCAS lets you list future coursework, and your acceptance to a school is conditional, partially based on completion of that coursework (if it's a pre-req, then it's pretty much fully conditional).

 

[hiyaman]

Why would every class be one at a time? Isn't it better to be taking multiple classes that are related?

 

[gravitywave]

your M1 curriculum looks a lot like ours, and a lot like what's already being done at a lot of places.

you are right about embryo making gross much much easier. so few people seem to appreciate this 👍

 

[CodeBlu]

your M1 curriculum looks a lot like ours, and a lot like what's already being done at a lot of places.

you are right about embryo making gross much much easier. so few people seem to appreciate this 👍

What school???

 

[CodeBlu]

Why would every class be one at a time? Isn't it better to be taking multiple classes that are related?

This is the way the Univ of Michigan structures their curriculum. It seems to work for them. I've heard great things.

Plus, having anatomy and histo exams back to back sounds like torture.

 

[Whatyousay]

Whatever. I will jump through the hoops I need to jump through if that gets me to where I want to go.

 

[CodeBlu]

Whatever. I will jump through the hoops I need to jump through if that gets me to where I want to go.

Zoidberg thing to say.

 

[LizzyM]

Why reinvent the wheel? Evidence shows that the MCAT correlates with the Step 1 and Step 2-CK exams (almost linear) with the Step 1 showing a steeper curve (meaning a stronger relationship).

The relationship between the MCAT total score and the pass rates for the Step 1 are linear between 15-17 and 26-29 and then flatten out. Likewise, the relationship between MCAT total score and 4- year graduation rates are positively associated up to about 27-29 where they flatten out before dipping slightly at MCATs of 33 and higher (most likely reflecting students who take a year off for research). The 5-year graduation rate is high and flat for MCATS between 24 and 45.

A composite of 25 would be a bit too low, IMHO, to assure me that we are selecting applicants who have what it takes to successfully complete med school. I'd go with nothing less than a 7 in verbal, at least 8 in bio & physical and a total of not less than 27 as a first cut.

 

[CodeBlu]

Why reinvent the wheel? Evidence shows that the MCAT correlates with the Step 1 and Step 2-CK exams (almost linear) with the Step 1 showing a steeper curve (meaning a stronger relationship).

The relationship between the MCAT total score and the pass rates for the Step 1 are linear between 15-17 and 26-29 and then flatten out. Likewise, the relationship between MCAT total score and 4- year graduation rates are positively associated up to about 27-29 where they flatten out before dipping slightly at MCATs of 33 and higher (most likely reflecting students who take a year off for research). The 5-year graduation rate is high and flat for MCATS between 24 and 45.

A composite of 25 would be a bit too low, IMHO, to assure me that we are selecting applicants who have what it takes to successfully complete med school. I'd go with nothing less than a 7 in verbal, at least 8 in bio & physical and a total of not less than 27 as a first cut.

I see you're being lenient with verbal. Do you have a reason for doing so? Seems that most schools want at least an 8-9 in verbal.

 

[FattySlug]

Why reinvent the wheel? Evidence shows that the MCAT correlates with the Step 1 and Step 2-CK exams (almost linear) with the Step 1 showing a steeper curve (meaning a stronger relationship).

I have heard that they are planning to change the current MCAT format/contents to make it better correlate with Step 1 success. Might I ask where you have gotten your info? I am very interested in reading it. Thank you.

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

Heh, with all this talk of there being a correlation between a good mcat score and doing well on the Step 1, 2, etc. I really hope that most medical schools agree.

Easier to do better on the mcat than it is to improve a c/sGPA. So hopefully you guys are not lying.

 

[LizzyM]

I see you're being lenient with verbal. Do you have a reason for doing so? Seems that most schools want at least an 8-9 in verbal.

To avoid weeding out non-native speakers (readers) of English who often bring a valuable point of view/language skills/experience to the classroom & clinic.

I have heard that they are planning to change the current MCAT format/contents to make it better correlate with Step 1 success. Might I ask where you have gotten your info? I am very interested in reading it. Thank you.

I got the information from an AMCAS Communication. Using MCAT Data in 2010 Student Selection, October 2009. It is a leaflet... I couldn't find a copy online but I did find a larger document which is very interesting
http://www.cossa.org/diversity/reports/Integrating_Holistic_Review_Practices.pdf

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Okay, CB, being that it's no longer 4am I think I can respond. 😀

1. With enough practice, you can "beat" any standardized test, including IQ tests, which are above all designed to test innate intelligence. I would keep the MCAT in the admissions process, but maybe improve it to reflect better problem-solving skills. Also, I would not include MBTI on any admissions test. I can see this creating a bias for certain personality types, or a reverse bias where rarer personality types are more prized even when those personalities wouldn't necessarily do better in medicine.

2. I agree that it would be helpful to be more open about the admissions process. After all, reviewers do write notes about each application they read. It would take five minutes to write a brief summary on why an individual applicant was rejected--maybe it could be made available after interview season is over? However, I can see this being cumbersome for schools with 10,000+ applications. Also, there are SO MANY random reasons to reject an applicant. A lot of the feedback might not be helpful. Usually applicants know when part of their application is weak: low GPA, unbalanced MCAT, no research. Or, it might just be, "You had a great application, but this other guy had green eyes and I'm kind of partial."

3. I like secondary applications, because every school I'm applying to I would love to attend. I want med schools to give me a chance to say, "Hey, I think you guys are amazing and I really want to be a student here." I want to be able to show that I've taken the time to learn about each school and articulate why they are on my application list.

Not going to say anything about the M1 curriculum because, to be honest, I have no experience or knowledge to eloquently discuss it.

I actually don't think AMCAS should remain the same. I feel like the transcript verification process and the actual application should be two separate entities. Most people have their transcripts in to AMCAS way before they actually hit the submit button, but because courses must be verified, applications get held up for 3-5 weeks from the submit date.

Imagine having your transcripts in early May, with courses getting verified in the normal three to four weeks, and and then whenever you submit you app, you are complete instantly and start receiving secondaries shortly thereafter.

I totally agree with this.

 

[Catalystik]

The ideal admissions process...

Final step in the admissions process is the interview which will consist of an MMI and a 30 minute 1-on-1 faculty member interview. MMI for 90 minutes.

You failed to address this component in detail. Would you not want the interview questions to be known ahead of time for the sake of thorough preparation?

What are ideal questions to be asked by adcomm members?

 

[The Beav]

OP is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

 

[CodeBlu]

OP is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

 

[CodeBlu]

You failed to address this component in detail. Would you not want the interview questions to be known ahead of time for the sake of thorough preparation?

What are ideal questions to be asked by adcomm members?

MMI Questions.

Placebo (Ethical Decision Making)
Dr Smith recommends homeopathic medicines to his patients. There is no scientific evidence or widely accepted theory to suggest that homeopathic medicines work, and Dr Smith doesn't believe them to. He recommends homeopathic medicine to people with mild and non-specific symptoms such as fatigue, headaches and muscle aches, because he believes that it will do no harm, but will give them reassurance.
Consider the ethical problems that Dr Smith’s behaviour might pose. Discuss these issues with the interviewer.

Aspartame (Critical Thinking)
A message that recently appeared on the Web warned readers of the dangers of aspartame (artificial sweetener – Nutrasweet, Equal) as a cause of an epidemic of multiple sclerosis (a progressive chronic disease of the nervous system) and systemic lupus (a multisystem auto-immune disease). The biological explanation provided was that, at body temperature, aspartame releases wood alcohol (methanol), which turns into formic acid, which 'is in the same class of drugs as cyanide and arsenic.' Formic acid, they argued, causes metabolic acidosis. Clinically, aspartame poisoning was argued to be a cause of joint pain, numbness, cramps, vertigo, headaches, depression, anxiety, slurred speech and blurred vision. The authors claimed that aspartame remains on the market because the food and drug industries have powerful lobbies in Congress. They quoted Dr Rhonda Blaylock, who said, 'The ingredients stimulate the neurons of the brain to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees.'
Critique this message, in terms of the strength of the arguments presented and their logical consistency. Your critique might include an indication of the issues that you would like to delve into further before assessing the validity of these claims.

Air Travel (Communication Skills)
Your company needs both you and a co-worker (Sara, a colleague from another branch of the company) to attend a critical business meeting in San Diego. You have just arrived to drive Sara to the airport.
Sara (played by an actor) is in the room.

Class Size (Critical Thinking)
Universities are commonly faced with the complicated task of balancing the educational needs of their students and the cost required to provide learning resources to a large number of individuals. As a result of this tension, there has been much debate regarding the optimal size of classes. One side argues that smaller classes provide a more educationally effective setting for students, while others argue that it makes no difference, so larger classes should be used to minimise the number of instructors required.
Discuss your opinion on this issue with the examiner.

Parking Garage (Communication Skills)
The parking garage at your place of work has assigned parking spots. On leaving your spot, you are observed by the garage attendant as you back into a neighbouring car, knocking out its left front headlight and denting the left front fender. The garage attendant gives you the name and office number of the owner of the neighbouring car, telling you that she is calling ahead to the car owner, Tim. The garage attendant tells you that Tim is expecting your visit.
Enter Tim's office. Tim will be played by an actor.

Preferential Admission (Societal Health Issues in the USA)
Due to the shortage of primary care physicians in both rural and urban communities, it has been suggested that medical schools preferentially admit students who are willing to commit to a primary care specialty.
Consider the broad implications of this policy for health and health care costs. For example, do you think the approach will be effective? At what expense? Discuss this issue with the interviewer.

 

[The Beav]

Funny you should "cool story bro" me, making up fantasy tests, admissions policies and curricula is about as "cool story bro" worthy as it gets.

 

[osprey099]

you've got way too much time dude

 

[SanAntonian]

OP is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever read on the internet.

At least give CB some points for creativity

 

[Forca Barca]

If I had your time I'd be Einstein .. eff

 

[The Beav]

At least give CB some points for creativity

Ok I actually feel bad now. OP is thinking about something important to him and coming up with ways he would improve it. Something I would never do but whatever, I should lay off.