College --> MD/PhD?

[Genore]

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I'm currently a high school senior interested in pursuing a career as a physician scientist. I need to choose between the University of Pennsylvania and a good regional Catholic college (heavy focus on pre-Med & biology). The biggest issue is the money. The Catholic college has given me a scholarship that covers about 2/3 of tuition, where as UPenn kindly offered no financial aid. There are definitely research opportunities for me at either school.

I really would love the challenge of an Ivy League institution, but I'm not sure if the huge debt is worth it. Both schools have scholarships that I could apply for to cover full tuition Jr & Sr years, but neither are guaranteed. (Even with the last two years covered, UPenn would put me >$80k in debt...)

I know that MSTP provides full funding for MD/PhD training so I don't have to worry about paying for Med school, but my parents are nervous about selling part of their retirement when I could need more, should I change my mind (or die before I could pay them back).

I am confident in my path toward the MD/PhD program (have worked in two internships in genetics so far), and am not worried about getting into a program. My ultimate goal is to teach, research, and do clinical work at the Mayo Clinic (institution subject to change).

However, starting out grad school with that much money owed is a bit intimidating. Additionally, I would hopefully be borrowing from my parents, who will be retiring soon and may need the money back while I'm still only a fellow.

Do you have any advice? What would you have chosen? How have you paid back your debts?

Thanks.

 

[tortuga87]

For MD/Phd, the undergrad you go to matters much less than your GPA, MCAT and research experiences unless you go to Harvard or MIT.

For med school (MD only), undergrad doesn't matter as much like MD/PhD.

For grad school, the undergrad you go to matters a lot. Are you sure you don't want to do PhD only?

If you want to see hard evidence of the above yourself, just take a look at mdapplicants or browse through the pre-med forums. You can also check out grad cafe forums for grad school stats.

If you are set to do an MD/PhD (how you are set so early aside), I think the best strategy would be to go somewhere where you can get a high GPA, have a lot of time to study for the MCAT, and get research experiences. I'm not sure UPenn has grade inflation like Brown and Stanford. You will have to seek out research more if you go to the catholic school than UPenn, but the GPA and MCAT can be in your favor, if you work hard. Also, keep in mind that there will be less peer pressure to study hard at the catholic school than UPenn (which is full of smarter ppl)

Summary: If you don't need hand-holding to succeed and are sure of MD/PhD, I would go to the Catholic school over UPenn

 

[jc235693]

That's a tough decision, I wish you look. I think its always prudent to take the money, you're going to get a good education no matter where you go (as long as you put effort and dedication into your studies you'll do well and learn a lot anywhere). That being said I am sure going to the Ivy League school is still really tempting. Many may say when you apply to grad school it wont matter where you did your undergrad, I might disagree with that though. I went to a small liberal arts college and can't help but think I might have done better this application cycle if I had been coming out of a more well known school (I could just have an inflated ego though). However, I still got multiple interviews and multiple acceptances to funded MD/PhD programs and will be starting at a great MSTP program this summer, so going to a small school definitely wont stop you from getting into programs. I think it's probably better to be safe and take the money, you never know what will happen in the next four years. You may decide you want to just do medicine or just do research, or you may even change fields entirely (I know it seems unlikely now but it does happen). Sorry for the long post, hopefully some other people can weigh in.

 

[MiniPanda]

IMO, that much financial pressure would be too stressful. And, as set as you are right now, you MIGHT want change majors and/or career paths during college. In which case you'd hate to be stuck in a corner where you need to be making a lot of money (or at least not needing more from your parents) right out of the gate. I say take the money from the smaller school... and keep your options open. I went to a small (but reputable) college and was happy with how my application season turned out, and the only things that might have kept it from being better were not my school's fault.

 

[solitude]

I disagree with all of the posters. Go to the best school you can. Never, ever scrimp on your education. It's only money, and you only live once.

On a more practical level, it will help you get into grad/med school if that is what you one day decide to do (note that many, many people change their minds about pre-med in college). This isn't to say that you couldn't do the exact same thing if you go to the other school, because many people do, but in my opinion it is much more difficult.

 

[random cell]

If it was Harvard vs Random U + full tuition where would you go? Obviously you should choose UPenn. On my MSTP interviews at the top 10 shcools the majority of people were from top 10 schools (Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Yale, etc) with 1 or 2 people from smaller/lesser known universities. Not sure if that means anything, but going to Penn will not hurt you and can possibly help you. If you are super strapped for cash, there are places that give need-based aid and I'm sure you can work something out.

 

[Neuronix]

If it was Harvard vs Random U + full tuition where would you go? Obviously you should choose UPenn. On my MSTP interviews at the top 10 shcools the majority of people were from top 10 schools (Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Yale, etc) with 1 or 2 people from smaller/lesser known universities.

As one of the minority who went to a smaller/lesser known university and finished a top-10 MSTP, I strongly disagree. I would take the money.

 

[Maebea]

In the years 2008 & 2009, 289 individuals enrolled in MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" medical schools, as defined by the current US News rankings. (Actually, there are 2 schools tied for 10th) The med schools are Harvard, Penn, Hopkins WashU, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, Yale, Washington, Columbia & Michigan. The most frequently represented undergrad institutions were:

Harvard, 29
Yale, 19
MIT, 13
Hopkins, 12
Wash U, 12
Columbia, 9
Duke, 9
Penn, 9
Stanford, 9
UCLA, 8

These schools accounted for 45% of those admitted to MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" med schools. Where did the rest come from?

Elite Private Universities (Chicago, Brown, Princeton, etc.), 24
Other Private Universities (Georgetown, Fordham, Northwestern, etc.), 27

Elite Colleges (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc.) 12
Other Colleges (Beloit, Kenyon, Colorado College, etc.), 27

Elite State (Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, etc.), 27
Other State (UNLV, Arizona, Penn St., etc.) 35

Yes, the elite undergrad schools are heavily represented among the Top 10 MSTPs, but there are also indviduals from CalState-Fullerton, CUNY-Brooklyn, Grove City College, LSU, Clarkson, Loyola-NO, etc. You can get from a non-Top 10 undergrad to a Top 10 MSTP. Neuronix is not an outlier. (Well, at least in terms of his educational background.)

Don't put yourself in serious debt just to go to Penn, Harvard, etc., thinking that it is the only way to get into an MSTP. A mountain of debt, whether from undergrad or grad school, can limit your career choices down the road.

 

[jc235693]

Since this seems to be moving towards a Top School v. Small School discussion I wanted to throw my 2 cents in. I think as an applicant you will have to work harder to get interviews while coming from a small school (you are going to have to work harder to impress that adcom if no-name school is on your app than if Harvard or Penn is on it, that is just a fact). However, I think going to a small school gives you a much better chance for individual success. Going in with better credentials than most of the rest of your class will help your GPA and performing well in classes will help professors get to know you and take an interest in your development. You may have an easier time getting into a lab/being allowed the freedom to design your own research projects. At my small liberal arts school I have been able to form multiple relationships with professors that have really been great mentors to me and have helped me develop as a scientist. I am not sure if I would have gotten this type of attention at a top school where class sizes were much bigger and I was just an average student as opposed to a top student.

 

[obscurehero]

OP (original poster). First of all, you're a smart enough senior to be looking for advice in what I think is A right place (not necessarily THE right place). Cultivating an appetite for advice/mentorship/criticism should be a lifetime pursuit and you've got a head start. Congrats!

First, I went to a small school and was admitted to a fully funded MSTP program this cycle. Many of us on these boards did as well. It can be done, and it has been done. This isn't a small vs. large school debate, personally, this is a debate about finances (among other things). I think Neuronix hit the nail on the head. Take the money. Especially because we're in a bad economic climate, especially because you're still in HS and can't possibly predict where you'll be four years from now let alone 12, 16, or 20 years from now (when you're done with residency, fellowship, and/or post-doc). Having undergrad debt is foolish, if you can avoid it by going to a reasonable school with a good education. Also, don't drain your parents retirement on the off-chance it might position you for a better chance at an MD/PhD program. You don't know where you're going to be in four years, and that's a gamble I wouldn't want to make my parents take...regardless of how willing they are to take it.

Second, if you want to be sure you'll be ok at the smaller school, look at how many of their undergrads do research either at institutional or extra-institutional programs. A school that cultivates an environment for research is where you want to be. Trust me on that one. You need to have a strong background in research if you want to pursue an MD/PhD. That hardly means a publication, but it does mean that the adcom knows you've seen how a lab operates and what research looks like in your field of interest. They want to know that you've gotten your feet wet, and you like how it feels. This depends of course, but there are plenty of other resources to help you determine how much research experience you need.

On that note, whatever school you decide to attend, try to get some experience doing research this summer...if you can. Most summer positions for students are filled, but some are still open. I've worked in a lab where we had a high school student (entering freshman) help on projects...yes, she did a lot of lab chores, but she started to get a feel for the research environment.

Also, keep an open mind. The kind of student who becomes an MD/PhD candidate is unique. You might very well fit perfectly, but you will change dramatically in the next four years. Your interests and life direction might change. You can still do research as an MD, for example. You might find computer science more fascinating, or decide you want to get a PhD in astronomy.

 

[Neuronix]

Neuronix is not an outlier. (Well, at least in terms of his educational background.)

Well I did drop out of HS you know 😉

Good to have you back!

 

[StIGMA]

It is worthwhile to point out that at non-elite schools, MD/PhD programs are not emphasized to the same extent as they are at elite schools. There are less people around you going for them, there may be less faculty support for them (especially at schools not affiliated with medical schools), so many applicants who may have applied MD/PhD are often discouraged from doing so or are simply not supported or forced to think about it enough. The statistics are skewed because many people from non-elite schools simply do not apply to MD/PhD programs. At my undergrad, we put out over 300 people each year to medical schools (and that is just the accepted number)- and the majority of these people have extensive research experiences. Around 2-3 of those people apply to MD/PhD programs every year. I bet the ratio is far greater at elite schools.

If you know from early on that you want to enroll in an MD/PhD program, where you go to school does not matter. The fact that you know about them and are dedicated already sets you into your own category.

In the years 2008 & 2009, 289 individuals enrolled in MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" medical schools, as defined by the current US News rankings. (Actually, there are 2 schools tied for 10th) The med schools are Harvard, Penn, Hopkins WashU, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, Yale, Washington, Columbia & Michigan. The most frequently represented undergrad institutions were:

Harvard, 29
Yale, 19
MIT, 13
Hopkins, 12
Wash U, 12
Columbia, 9
Duke, 9
Penn, 9
Stanford, 9
UCLA, 8

These schools accounted for 45% of those admitted to MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" med schools. Where did the rest come from?

Elite Private Universities (Chicago, Brown, Princeton, etc.), 24
Other Private Universities (Georgetown, Fordham, Northwestern, etc.), 27

Elite Colleges (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc.) 12
Other Colleges (Beloit, Kenyon, Colorado College, etc.), 27

Elite State (Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, etc.), 27
Other State (UNLV, Arizona, Penn St., etc.) 35

Yes, the elite undergrad schools are heavily represented among the Top 10 MSTPs, but there are also indviduals from CalState-Fullerton, CUNY-Brooklyn, Grove City College, LSU, Clarkson, Loyola-NO, etc. You can get from a non-Top 10 undergrad to a Top 10 MSTP. Neuronix is not an outlier. (Well, at least in terms of his educational background.)

Don't put yourself in serious debt just to go to Penn, Harvard, etc., thinking that it is the only way to get into an MSTP. A mountain of debt, whether from undergrad or grad school, can limit your career choices down the road.

 

[MiniPanda]

In the years 2008 & 2009, 289 individuals enrolled in MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" medical schools, as defined by the current US News rankings. (Actually, there are 2 schools tied for 10th) The med schools are Harvard, Penn, Hopkins WashU, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, Yale, Washington, Columbia & Michigan. The most frequently represented undergrad institutions were:

Harvard, 29
Yale, 19
MIT, 13
Hopkins, 12
Wash U, 12
Columbia, 9
Duke, 9
Penn, 9
Stanford, 9
UCLA, 8

These schools accounted for 45% of those admitted to MD-PhD programs at "Top 10" med schools. Where did the rest come from?

Elite Private Universities (Chicago, Brown, Princeton, etc.), 24
Other Private Universities (Georgetown, Fordham, Northwestern, etc.), 27

Elite Colleges (Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, etc.) 12
Other Colleges (Beloit, Kenyon, Colorado College, etc.), 27

Elite State (Michigan, Wisconsin, Berkeley, etc.), 27
Other State (UNLV, Arizona, Penn St., etc.) 35

Yes, the elite undergrad schools are heavily represented among the Top 10 MSTPs, but there are also indviduals from CalState-Fullerton, CUNY-Brooklyn, Grove City College, LSU, Clarkson, Loyola-NO, etc. You can get from a non-Top 10 undergrad to a Top 10 MSTP. Neuronix is not an outlier. (Well, at least in terms of his educational background.)

Don't put yourself in serious debt just to go to Penn, Harvard, etc., thinking that it is the only way to get into an MSTP. A mountain of debt, whether from undergrad or grad school, can limit your career choices down the road.

This info is great-- it definitely shows the wide range of schools people come from. I'd like to add on with a little perspective on what's been said:

My college graduates ~180 seniors each year. Historically about 3 a year go MD/PhD-- last year they went to UCSF, Johns Hopkins, and Mt. Sinai. 3/180 = 1.6% of the class. (And we have a 100% acceptance rate into at least one program). UPenn, on the other hand, graduates ~2,600 seniors each year, and according to that list 9 of them went to top institutions. 9/2600= 0.35%.

1.6>0.35.
Even if you quibble and say that the girl who went to Mt.Sinai doesn't count because it's not top ten, it's still:
1.1>0.35

A previous poster was right-- there are just fewer numbers applying from smaller schools. But proportionately, it would appear that going to my undergrad in no way made me a dark horse.

PS- A small school does not necessarily mean a no-name school, as one poster implied : )