Competition in Pre-reqs

[kate_g]

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Slightly off-topic vent since this thread took sort of a left turn anyway... I bet at least HorseyVet and Wishes, and probably a lot more of you, can relate to how much I *hated* the fact that everyone assumes all academically successful biology majors are pre-med. It got to the point that someone would ask (with only goodness in their heart, I'm sure) "so, you're going to be a doctor?" and I would say "I have *no* interest in medical school!" quite a bit more vehemently than they deserved.

FWIW I think you both made the right decision too... No way I want to spend all day around sick people, they're grumpy and obnoxious - at least I know I'm grumpy and obnoxious when I'm sick... 🙂

 

[wishes]

By and large, the crop of pre-med students are frightenly awful people. I remember sitting in a class one day and thinking "I cannot work with these people the rest of my life." I realize, like everything else, not all are bad, but the dynamics of who becomes a doctor has changed and there are a lot of people I know that will be doctors who I wouldn't even let babysit a goldfish.

I hate to generalize any particular group of people, but it is refreshing to hear that other people share my feeling that the pre-med students, as a whole, tend to be a very homogenous crowd. I also could not bear the thought of being one among a collection of people many of whom never outgrow their presumption of superiority.
Thankfully, this attitude appears to be much less prevalent within circles of veterinary medicine.

 

[Olddodger]

I hate to generalize any particular group of people, but it is refreshing to hear that other people share my feeling that the pre-med students, as a whole, tend to be a very homogenous crowd. I also could not bear the thought of being one among a collection of people many of whom never outgrow their presumption of superiority.
Thankfully, this attitude appears to be much less prevalent within circles of veterinary medicine.

I also have to agree. You hate to pigeonhole people, but this is, in my experience, fairly accurate.

My nephew is pre-med at Columbia, and as I'm doing my pre-recs, we chat often, and I've met some of his classmates.

I would characterize them all as being extremely good at "hoop jumping" and "working the system" as opposed to having any passion for the material. We're talking zero curiosity for basic science here...their sole motivation is checking off the boxes.

As the above poster said, I wouldn't trust any of them with a goldfish, even the 10 cent feeder variety (or even the cracker variety, for that matter ).

I've noticed the exact same thing in my pre-rec classes. Given that curiosity is one of the primary defining characteristics of a human being, it's odd that such a large group of people lacks it.

But hey, it makes it easy to stand out from the crowd. My professors are pretty happy to have me around, because now they have someone who will come and sit down and talk with them every once in a while about something other than pimping for another point on the exam (not that I'm above that 😉.

Oldie

 

[gregMD]

I also have to agree. You hate to pigeonhole people, but this is, in my experience, fairly accurate.

My nephew is pre-med at Columbia, and as I'm doing my pre-recs, we chat often, and I've met some of his classmates.

I would characterize them all as being extremely good at "hoop jumping" and "working the system" as opposed to having any passion for the material. We're talking zero curiosity for basic science here...their sole motivation is checking off the boxes.

As the above poster said, I wouldn't trust any of them with a goldfish, even the 10 cent feeder variety (or even the cracker variety, for that matter ).

I've noticed the exact same thing in my pre-rec classes. Given that curiosity is one of the primary defining characteristics of a human being, it's odd that such a large group of people lacks it.

But hey, it makes it easy to stand out from the crowd. My professors are pretty happy to have me around, because now they have someone who will come and sit down and talk with them every once in a while about something other than pimping for another point on the exam (not that I'm above that 😉.

Oldie

who the hell are you kidding? nobody likes those pre-req classes - they're boring, tedious and so bloody competitive... realistically all they are are hoops, and quite frankly, pre-vets are just as bad as pre-meds, pre-dents and the like.

get over yourself.

 

[JIKJen124]

Not to stir the pot, but... What is your connection to vet med? Your comments seem very... uncharacteristic of those who frequent this forum.

But back on topic - if you don't have a real interest in the basic science at somepoint (ok, maybe you hate orgo but some part of biochem or cell bio or micro has got to be fasicinating). If you aren't into the underlying of what makes animals sick, why are you bothering becoming a vet? If you are just in if for working with animals, there's gotta be an easier way (like becoming a tech for example).

who the hell are you kidding? nobody likes those pre-req classes - they're boring, tedious and so bloody competitive... realistically all they are are hoops, and quite frankly, pre-vets are just as bad as pre-meds, pre-dents and the like.

get over yourself.

 

[Olddodger]

who the hell are you kidding? nobody likes those pre-req classes - they're boring, tedious and so bloody competitive... realistically all they are are hoops, and quite frankly, pre-vets are just as bad as pre-meds, pre-dents and the like.

get over yourself.

Oh, yes, gosh, forgive me for having ANY kind of interest in the physical/biological world.

It must be that pesky engineer in me comming out again...I'll have to up my "anti curiosity" dosage or I might break out in a pocket protector.

Sheesh 🙄 ...

Back in the day, the motto was "cooperate graduate". I'm glad to see that modern academia has squeezed what little civility there was out of the process. Someone please tell me this isn't the case everywhere.

Oldie

 

[mokadet]

Pay no attention to GregMD. Like someone inferred earlier, he needs to stay on the MD forums especially if he cannot be civil.

I agree with everything everyone has said so far about attitude differences between pre-MD and pre-DVM students and I think that the interruption of GregMD just drives our point home.

 

[gregMD]

Not to stir the pot, but... What is your connection to vet med? Your comments seem very... uncharacteristic of those who frequent this forum.

But back on topic - if you don't have a real interest in the basic science at somepoint (ok, maybe you hate orgo but some part of biochem or cell bio or micro has got to be fasicinating). If you aren't into the underlying of what makes animals sick, why are you bothering becoming a vet? If you are just in if for working with animals, there's gotta be an easier way (like becoming a tech for example).

my connection to the forum is irrelevant - i believe i can post where ever i please.

and pathology (the study of disease process) really has little to do with basic biochemistry (maybe on a molecular level it does)... but nobody looks at a patient and thinks back to their intro biochem class... why? because that was a hoop you had to jump through to get into med (or vet in your case) school.

 

[julieDVM]

who the hell are you kidding? nobody likes those pre-req classes - they're boring, tedious and so bloody competitive... realistically all they are are hoops, and quite frankly, pre-vets are just as bad as pre-meds, pre-dents and the like.

get over yourself.

i'm inclined to agree with this.

 

[chris03333]

my connection to the forum is irrelevant - i believe i can post where ever i please.

and pathology (the study of disease process) really has little to do with basic biochemistry (maybe on a molecular level it does)... but nobody looks at a patient and thinks back to their intro biochem class... why? because that was a hoop you had to jump through to get into med (or vet in your case) school.

Okay this may be true if you are dealing with ONE species but think in terms of pathology (or rather pathophysiology) of the gastrointestinal system. As a veterinarian I must know the biochemical reactions to understand why the pathology is different in each species and I must keep that in mind when I treat my patient whether it be an omnivorus monogastric animal (ie dog, pig) obligate carnivore monogastric(cat) cecotroph (rabbit) ruminant (cow, sheep..) hindgut fermenter(horse) ....
now I will get off my soapbox 🙂

 

[julieDVM]

Okay this may be true if you are dealing with ONE species but think in terms of pathology (or rather pathophysiology) of the gastrointestinal system. As a veterinarian I must know the biochemical reactions to understand why the pathology is different in each species and I must keep that in mind when I treat my patient whether it be an omnivorus monogastric animal (ie dog, pig) obligate carnivore monogastric(cat) cecotroph (rabbit) ruminant (cow, sheep..) hindgut fermenter(horse) ....
now I will get off my soapbox 🙂

you know, i have a real problem when vets think that their jobs are harder than our MD counterparts - just becuause we deal with multiple species, doesn't change the fact that when it comes down to it, we are all dealing with mammals - and when you get past the metabolism differences between all the species we deal with, the mammalian system is pretty universal. Do you not think human GI docs need to know the biochemical reactions to understand and Tx GIT pathology? Of course they do.


and for the record, you really didn't have to give examples of what monogastrics, cecotrophs and ruminants were - i'm sure he knew. That was a deliberate attempt at being demeaning.

 

[2Bsure]

This discussion is a good one, but it seems to be a little off topic under this thread. Deanna, I don’t know if you will read this, but is there anyway to move a chunk of posts from one thread to another?

My gut feeling regarding the jaded pre-med phenomenon is that pre-meds are not especially disinterested people. The classes they take (and the ones we take with them) are crowded and, by nature, impersonal. Setting yourself apart from the crowd in a course with 100+ students takes a lot of gumption. While I tend to participate in class and interact on at least basic level with professors and TAs, I do this mainly because I could not learn otherwise. Once students reach upper division elective biology and chemistry courses, my guess is med-student interest rises.

Anecdotally, my animal science classes are much smaller and, as a result, students engage with actual professors. Additionally, in those classes where pre-vets are little more than a number, they tend to take laissez-fair approach similar to the pre-meds’.

I’d like to see if there are any biochemistry or biology majors who take courses outside the strict pre-med/vet/dent tract have contradictory evidence or care to comment about this.

 

[chris03333]

you know, i have a real problem when vets think that their jobs are harder than our MD counterparts - just becuause we deal with multiple species, doesn't change the fact that when it comes down to it, we are all dealing with mammals - and when you get past the metabolism differences between all the species we deal with, the mammalian system is pretty universal. Do you not think human GI docs need to know the biochemical reactions to understand and Tx GIT pathology? Of course they do.


and for the record, you really didn't have to give examples of what monogastrics, cecotrophs and ruminants were - i'm sure he knew. That was a deliberate attempt at being demeaning.

Wooo now, calm down I am not trying to demean anyone and I apologise. I gave examples because I assumed he probably DID know, but to be honest I did not know what some of these terms were until I was in college and then only because I took animal nutrition. There are other people on this forum that are not even in college yet. Who knows maybe I was just slow or something.Yes I do know that human GI docs need to know the biochemical reactions to understand and tx GIT pathology. That would be part of my point if we were talking about an MD and needing to know basic biochemistry, but we were addressing veterinary medicine and I just wanted to show where his(or her?) argument was flawed. I do not think a vets job is harder than any other medical profession, just different. 😳

 

[2Bsure]

you know, i have a real problem when vets think that their jobs are harder than our MD counterparts

I think vets may hold this attitude to cope widespread belief among the general population that they are lite doctors who could not make the medical school admissions cut. Many also look them down upon them since they seem to think that vets treat dumb and simple animals and use uncomplicated techniques.

If there is one good thing about avian flu, it has improved the image veterinarians given more outward respectability to the profession.

 

[julieDVM]

I think vets may hold this attitude to cope widespread belief among the general population that they are lite doctors who could not make the medical school admissions cut. Many also look them down upon them since they seem to think that vets treat dumb and simple animals and use uncomplicated techniques.

If there is one good thing about avian flu, it has improved the image veterinarians given more outward respectability to the profession.

i completely agree... many vets hold inferiority complexes to human MDs and try to compensate by making our jobs seem more complicated... its one of my biggest pet peves

 

[wishes]

My gut feeling regarding the jaded pre-med phenomenon is that pre-meds are not especially disinterested people. The classes they take (and the ones we take with them) are crowded and, by nature, impersonal. Setting yourself apart from the crowd in a course with 100+ students takes a lot of gumption. While I tend to participate in class and interact on at least basic level with professors and TAs, I do this mainly because I could not learn otherwise. Once students reach upper division elective biology and chemistry courses, my guess is med-student interest rises.

Anecdotally, my animal science classes are much smaller and, as a result, students engage with actual professors. Additionally, in those classes where pre-vets are little more than a number, they tend to take laissez-fair approach similar to the pre-meds’.

I’d like to see if there are any biochemistry or biology majors who take courses outside the strict pre-med/vet/dent tract have contradictory evidence or care to comment about this.

Personally, I was a chemistry major/biology minor, but I went to a small, liberal arts college where I took a large amount of classes in the humanities and social sciences, in addition to my science requirements.
I can honestly say that, although not without some frustrations, I thoroughly enjoyed many of the introductory science classes because I found them interesting and challenging, so it is difficult for me to understand how anyone could regard them with complete disinterest.
I do apologize for the earlier generalizations that I made about the pre-med students as they were largely based on my experiences at only one university, but I still stand by my earlier impression that most students of the pre-med bent seemed to be somewhat arrogant and typically chose not to associate with students outside their pre-med clique. In fact, I found it curious that the group of them often took even their non-science classes together and behaved much the same way there. Perhaps this is not the case at other schools.
I will also say that there was not a large concentration of pre-vet students at my university, so I suppose it is possible that pre-vet students could act in a similar manner. Certainly I concede that the formation of exclusive cliques occurs everywhere among groups of people with similar interests, and is probably especially prevalent within college-aged populations.

 

[chickenboo]

I think the competitive element has more to do with the size of the classes than being pre-vet vs. pre-med. I think larger class size=people don't get to know each other on a personal level, and it is easier to be competitive with them. For example, at my school (UC Davis), we had very large (about 300 students) intro. to animal science classes; by the time you got to upper division classes, the class size was down to about 100. There were more than a few competitive pre-vets, let me tell you. A TA from Cal Poly noted this to one of our lab sections--how much more competitive we were than the pre-vets at Cal Poly, because they have a much smaller program--everyone knows each other and cooperates. Not that everyone is always at each other's throats or anything at Davis...but there is absolutely a competitive element to the animal science program, which is chock-full of pre-vets. A competitive element that was equal to the competition I saw between pre-meds/pre-PhDs in my genetics classes once I switched majors...although granted, there were not as many pre-meds as in the Neuro/Physio major, but I think there was still a good sampling of them.

 

[2Bsure]

In those large classes, I've occasionally formed study groups that have included pre-med students. The ones I've spent the most time around tended to be pretty grounded people. Maybe this is because I go to a large university and the pre-meds belong to more than one clique.

Regarding the big classes, many (but by no means all) of the professors who teach them tend to be pretty aloof. This only furthers the student alienation.

 

[PAThbrd]

This discussion is a good one, but it seems to be a little off topic under this thread. Deanna, I don’t know if you will read this, but is

Yes, I can and I will as soon as I have a spare moment, probably sometime later tonight or tomorrow.

We have a good debate/discussion going here but please, as a friendly reminder, please remember to stay civil and on topic, respect opinions from all aspects of the medical field, and refrain from any personal attacks. 🙂

 

[wishes]

I think it has more to do with the size of the classes than anything. I think larger class size=people don't get to know each other on a personal level, and it is easier to be competitive with them.

While this does make sense to me, I did come from a small university and I definitely observed alot of competition there, especially among certain groups. There certainly may be more competition at larger schools, but perhaps it is just more apparent at a small school when most class sizes are between 15-45 students.

 

[PAThbrd]

Hey guys, in case you haven't noticed, this is the discussion from the "Vet Residency" thread. I split the thread into two to maintain the two distinct discussions that were occuring there.

 

[rhinoceros]

hmm. See when you have three hundred student classes learning material at eighty miles an hour with a median population of fifty to sixty percent premeds, it's sometimes easy to lose your mind to the details. Consider that a good number of premeds are not just taking biochem, but biochem, physics, orgo, labs, one or two prerequisite humanities courses and engaging in independant research at the same time. Between getting six hours of sleep tonight and reading up on something you don't have to know for the exam in two days, the choice might be easy. I don't think it's quite fair to blame pre-meds for their apparent lack of curiosity given the environment they work in, especially for folks who've already had a glimpse of the big picture and are now coming back to learn how the colors go together. Because of my school's nature I really don't know any other pre-vets but I think you'd get a similar result by throwing a high concentration of them into the same academic situation. Anything's interesting if you have the time and energy to study it fully.

Also I also think schools should start cooling it with all the darn requirements.

 

[youthman]

By the very fact that you go into veterinary medicine knowing that the compensation may not match the qualifications, you are more likely to be in it because you have compassion for animals. Part of your reward is in helping and making a difference. This may change as you have worked for many years, and at some point the compassion may be replaced with some other negative feelings, or you may go into a specialty that doesn't require any compassion, but that's a separate discussion.

On the other hand, SEVERAL people go into human medicine believing that it will give them higher social status and financial success. SEVERAL people go into human medicine because that's what their parents pushed them to become all their lives. To many that are driven by competition itself, it's about going for "gold." I'm not saying this explains all of it or that all pre-meds are like that, but this surely accounts for a portion of the different attitudes.

As far as the pre-req classes, maybe it's just me, but I actually find science, math and biology INTERESTING.

 

[HorseyVet]

yikes. I went away for a few days and came back to a million posts relative to the general eb and flow. A few odds and ends comments:

Some said they got 6 hours of sleep. What is that like? lol =P

About persepctives on the profession...I think it's kind of funny what the general public even knows. I can't even count how many times I've had a client be totally surprised to find out that vet school require 4 years of additional schooling, just like human doctors. Some don't even seem to think that you even need more than 2 years of undergrad. Anyone else experienced this?

About pre-vets being not as "bad" as pre-meds....There are a lot of people that really play the game hard and who personally I don't have a lot of respect for. I know several people that make sure to carry a super light load while doing their pre-reqs and then wait until after they apply to take anything hard (usually the upper level bio courses to finish their bio degree). To me it's a little pitiful.

I remember talking to this girl last year who was early admitted somewhere....I told her what I was taking (neurobiology, parasitology, micro, animal phys, biochem, latin, etc.) and her response was "wow those classes are hard, why would you do that?" and then she admitted that she didn't take any hard classes aside from pre-reqs to keep her GPA high...which it was. I remember thinking..."if those classes are 'too hard' wtf does this person think vet school is going to be like?"

There was another person who I discovered rather recently that had already been accepted this year, which really shocked me b/c I'd taken like every single remotely useful bio or med ethics course and never met this person. B/c pretty much everyone knows w/in 3 seconds of talking to me that I'm trying to be a vet I really couldn't believe that there was another person at my school doing the same that I didn't know about. Turns out the person is of the sit in the back of the class-come to class late-talk about getting drunk that weekend in class variety. From what I can gather this person is anything but passionate about the profession, but has clearly played the game a lot better than I have. It honestly made me a little sick.

There are also a lot of pre-vet people I have met that seem to be utterly clueless about what it takes to be competitive for vet school admissions. I haven't been able to tell if they're not doing the leg-work or if they're just getting bad advice. At any rate, I can see where if the pre-med people ran across enough of the I-love-puppies types they'd think we're not on par with human med.

Most of the pre-meds I know generally are simply happy that I'm not directly competing w/ them in some way. Often some seem a little less antagonistic to me then they are with the other pre-meds. Like I don't matter so its ok to talk to me. Who knows.

Everyone has a pre-req that annoys them. Personally I don't think ochem is very useful the way it was taught for me. All those reactions in isolation are pretty disconnected to how you need to understand certain principles for medicine. If you look into, half of the reactions don't even really happen the way they are taught...meaning you're product is like 1% or something even if you constrain the conditions...All the biology though, I think is really really useful and interesting. I know a few ppl go by the "they will teach me all I need in vet/med school and therefore undergrad classes are useless" but I think that's just a pseudo-naive attempt to rationale not taking them or not doing well in them after the fact.

sorry for the long post.

Horsey

 

[rdc]

About pre-vets being not as "bad" as pre-meds....There are a lot of people that really play the game hard and who personally I don't have a lot of respect for. I know several people that make sure to carry a super light load while doing their pre-reqs and then wait until after they apply to take anything hard (usually the upper level bio courses to finish their bio degree). To me it's a little pitiful.

I remember talking to this girl last year who was early admitted somewhere....I told her what I was taking (neurobiology, parasitology, micro, animal phys, biochem, latin, etc.) and her response was "wow those classes are hard, why would you do that?" and then she admitted that she didn't take any hard classes aside from pre-reqs to keep her GPA high...which it was. I remember thinking..."if those classes are 'too hard' wtf does this person think vet school is going to be like?"
Horsey

vet school admissions is nothing but a game - you pity these people, but look - they're accepted... and quite frankly, i dont think they give a damn about whether you respect them or not.

there's no point in being a martyr and taking a whole bunch of hard classes just so you can say you've challenged yourself and prepared yourself for vet school. Thats just ******ed.

 

[keppsu1]

my connection to the forum is irrelevant - i believe i can post where ever i please.

and pathology (the study of disease process) really has little to do with basic biochemistry (maybe on a molecular level it does)... but nobody looks at a patient and thinks back to their intro biochem class... why? because that was a hoop you had to jump through to get into med (or vet in your case) school.[

It really makes me sad when I read all of this "hoop" jumping talk, because those classes are the basis for your knowledge as a doctor/vet. Sorry gregMD, but you don't seem to understand how practicing medicine really works. Biochemistry is indeed one of the keys to pathology, especially clinical pathology. See, there is this place in all hospitals (vet and human) called a LABORATORY. The members of this laboratory, overseen by pathologists, are medical technologists (my Mom has been one for over 35 years). In the laboratory, you submit all of your specimens, from blood to urine to poop to placentas. They run, among many other tests, your CBCs and serum chemistries for you, which give you a biochemical picture of how the body (of a patient) is functioning. Sorry, but I can only hope that my biochemistry background doesn't fail me when I get to clin path class (hint: clotting cascade, etc). The connection between biochemistry and pathology is also why every path department (I work/study in one at a vet school) requires resident PhD students to take biochemistry....future boarded pathologists.

 

[gregMD]

my connection to the forum is irrelevant - i believe i can post where ever i please.

and pathology (the study of disease process) really has little to do with basic biochemistry (maybe on a molecular level it does)... but nobody looks at a patient and thinks back to their intro biochem class... why? because that was a hoop you had to jump through to get into med (or vet in your case) school.[

It really makes me sad when I read all of this "hoop" jumping talk, because those classes are the basis for your knowledge as a doctor/vet. Sorry gregMD, but you don't seem to understand how practicing medicine really works. Biochemistry is indeed one of the keys to pathology, especially clinical pathology. See, there is this place in all hospitals (vet and human) called a LABORATORY. The members of this laboratory, overseen by pathologists, are medical technologists (my Mom has been one for over 35 years). In the laboratory, you submit all of your specimens, from blood to urine to poop to placentas. They run, among many other tests, your CBCs and serum chemistries for you, which give you a biochemical picture of how the body (of a patient) is functioning. Sorry, but I can only hope that my biochemistry background doesn't fail me when I get to clin path class (hint: clotting cascade, etc). The connection between biochemistry and pathology is also why every path department (I work/study in one at a vet school) requires resident PhD students to take biochemistry....future boarded pathologists.

maybe once you actually get into vet./med school, you'll realize that they re-teach you all the biochemistry you'll have to know (maybe not all schools do this). That's why i said that the pre-req biochemistry class was a hoop. And further to this, there's absolutely no point in talking to you about assessing a patients condition because you've got no concept of clinical medicine (if you're sitting there thinking about the patients electron transport system, or how they're replicating their DNA than you're wasting your, and the patients time). The biochemistry you learn in vet or med school is far more complex than basic biochemistry, and if you read what i wrote, i said that BASIC biochemistry has nothing to do with pathology.

by the way, yay for your mom...

 

[keppsu1]

maybe once you actually get into vet./med school, you'll realize that they re-teach you all the biochemistry you'll have to know (maybe not all schools do this). That's why i said that the pre-req biochemistry class was a hoop. And further to this, there's absolutely no point in talking to you about assessing a patients condition because you've got no concept of clinical medicine (if you're sitting there thinking about the patients electron transport system, or how they're replicating their DNA than you're wasting your, and the patients time). The biochemistry you learn in vet or med school is far more complex than basic biochemistry, and if you read what i wrote, i said that BASIC biochemistry has nothing to do with pathology.

by the way, yay for your mom...

Maybe I'll take a poll of the pathologists in my department and ask them if BASIC biochemistry has anything to do with pathology. Hah! That would be a waste of my time. Out of curiosity, where did you do your undergraduate studies?

 

[gregMD]

Maybe I'll take a poll of the pathologists in my department and ask them if BASIC biochemistry has anything to do with pathology. Hah! That would be a waste of my time. Out of curiosity, where did you do your undergraduate studies?

I did both my undergrad and my MD at harvard. I'm in my 2nd year of residency in cardio-thoracic surgery.

 

[keppsu1]

I did both my undergrad and my MD at harvard. I'm in my 2nd year of residency in cardio-thoracic surgery.

Would you have preferred to just skip the undergrad thing and go straight from HS to Med School? I gather from what you have said that repetition of the basics is not your cup of tea (necessary for you). I myself have become a fan of relearning topics (for example, biochem in undergrad, then in grad, then in vet school). I just think that it is important to teach BASICS like DNA replication more than once, because most people do not remember complex processes without some repetition. I agree with you in that the biochemistry learned in med/vet school (in its relation to pathology) is not the basic biochem from undergrad. In my experience working in diagnostic pathology, the repetition and experience is how everyone really learns. When the residents are studying for boards, their exposure and repetition is what gets them ready. Don't you think though, that understanding something like DNA replication basics is something that you should just at least appreciate having learned when you are treating complicated viruses? For example, Johnny has hepatitis. I'm going to give him interferon. Don't you think having that basic understanding of DNA viral replication is necessary to understand the more advanced process of the proteins produced and the immune response that leads to my giving Johnny interferon is important? I would rather have been exposed to that basic biochem before vet school, so that adding on the more complicated aspects becomes less difficult. I will agree to disagree with you though.

 

[2Bsure]

further to this, there's absolutely no point in talking to you about assessing a patients condition because you've got no concept of clinical medicine (if you're sitting there thinking about the patients electron transport system, or how they're replicating their DNA than you're wasting your, and the patients time).

Greg, if what you are saying is true, should clinicians receive training as doctors at all? Your statement seems to suggest that all clinicians need to do is interpret symptoms and test results without understanding any of the underlying causes or mechanisms of disease. Why not go one step further and completely replace clinicians with a computer program? Symptoms could be checked off, scans and blood work could be loaded, and the computer could make the diagnosis and write a treatment based on programmed algorithms.

Only their critical thinking, rooted in a deep knowledge of physiology (dependant on biochemistry) enables doctors to perform their duties better than a lesser trained individual.

 

[gregMD]

Greg, if what you are saying is true, should clinicians receive training as doctors at all? Your statement seems to suggest that all clinicians need to do is interpret symptoms and test results without understanding any of the underlying causes or mechanisms of disease. Why not go one step further and completely replace clinicians with a computer program? Symptoms could be checked off, scans and blood work could be loaded, and the computer could make the diagnosis and write a treatment based on programmed algorithms.

Only their critical thinking, rooted in a deep knowledge of physiology (dependant on biochemistry) enables doctors to perform their duties better than a lesser trained individual.

Quite obviously you need an understanding of clinical biochemistry when understanding disease processes. You, however, should receive this training IN medical school, and typically this training supercedes (quite profoundly) the introductory biochemistry course you took as a pre-req. All i'm saying is that intro biochem course you took to get into med/vet school was a hoop - not all that interesting, and quite frankly, is a "weeder" class. If you didn't have to take biochem to get into vet school, i doubt many people would take it - and i definitely think it's redundant having to take biochem as a pre-req, and then again in med/vet school.

And i hate to break it to you, but 90% of the time, all clinicians do is interpret symptoms and treat accordingly. University provides an unrealistic situation where your profs are grilling you on different pathological mechanisms etc. But when you're out in the real world, and you're seeing patients in between surgeries, you don't have time to sit there and think back to med school about all the little biochemical events that are occurring in a disease process... you skip that part and jump straight to the treatment of the disease - obviously there are exceptions, but this is usually the way it happens.

I'm just telling you how it is in the real world.

 

[CoffeeCrazy]

OK - although I can see both sides of this, I'd like to take the unpopular view. 🙂

my vet school didn't require the 2nd semester of organic chemistry, so I didn't take it. Nevermind the fact that I hate orgo! I also took an overly simplified biochem course... doubt I could tell you anything about it.

But I don't think I'm lacking in understanding underlying pathogeneses of diseases... I did just fine in general pathology and am doing fine in clinical pathology right now. While biochem might help your critical thinking SKILLS and ability to understand how things work - I don't think it contributes to your clinical knowledge. You do need to know some - but not all - of what you learn in undergrad to apply it to medicine.

My take on it - undergrad prepares you for graduate school by giving you critical thinking skills - the ability to deduce answers to problems rather than regurgitating knowledge. (Of course, there are those people that didn't learn that very well but got As in orgo.) I also think undergrad gives you a chance to mature! I couldn't have said definitively that I wanted to be a dr. when I was 18.

I have been participating in discussions that are ongoing to revamp our entire curriculum. Part of the problem is that they want to make classes more clinically based... and that means taking out a lot of the mechanistic details that will not be relevant to people heading in to practice. For researchers, that's another story... but you usually go on to more training if that's your cup of tea.

So I have to agree with my vet school (and the people we've been interviewing for department heads) that we need a little less mechanism and a little more clinical relevance to produce good doctors. Medicine has become so specialized that it's impossible for someone to be a good doctor in all specialties. That's why we have pharmacists, surgeons, opthomologists, dentists, dermatologists, etc. in veterinary medicine! You can't possibly know it all... that's why you have pathologists to tell you when you what the heck is going on.

Obviously I'm not trying to discourage you from learning all you can... but don't try to learn every detail down to every molecule, or you will drive yourself crazy.

 

[youthman]

About pre-vets being not as "bad" as pre-meds....There are a lot of people that really play the game hard and who personally I don't have a lot of respect for. I know several people that make sure to carry a super light load while doing their pre-reqs and then wait until after they apply to take anything hard (usually the upper level bio courses to finish their bio degree). To me it's a little pitiful.

Wouldn't the vet schools see that this person carried a super light load then? I would think they must have scored a high GPA with a respectable course load in order for it to have credibility.

 

[2Bsure]

GregMD, I’m slightly confused about your opinion regarding biochemistry. I can recognize why you might consider undergraduate biochemistry, at best, a waste of time. While the material helped me in a few other courses, I hated my poorly taught undergraduate course and would rather not have taken it. However in older postings, you seem to take issue not just with biochemistry as a prerequisite, but biochemistry as a graduate requirement.

And i hate to break it to you, but 90% of the time, all clinicians do is interpret symptoms and treat accordingly.

I do not doubt this point. Since the number of cases requiring physician exclusive care is not that high, the amount of care provided by non-MD professionals has been rising for years. However, one receives the special training and biochemistry for the 10% of cases that need it. In any a specialized field, a professional only rarely uses their specific training. That fact does not mean their training is unimportant.

 

[wishes]

By the very fact that you go into veterinary medicine knowing that the compensation may not match the qualifications, you are more likely to be in it because you have compassion for animals. Part of your reward is in helping and making a difference...on the other hand, SEVERAL people go into human medicine believing that it will give them higher social status and financial success...I'm not saying this explains all of it or that all pre-meds are like that, but this surely accounts for a portion of the different attitudes.

All i'm saying is that intro biochem course you took to get into med/vet school was a hoop - not all that interesting, and quite frankly, is a "weeder" class. If you didn't have to take biochem to get into vet school, i doubt many people would take it

I regard youthman's quote above as a good explaination of the personality differences sometimes perceived between pre-med and pre-vet students.

As gregMD says, I am willing to concede that introductory science classes are "weed-out" classes and I will agree with other posters that suggested these classes are designed to teach you critical thinking skills and make sure you can handle the intensity that goes along with a career as a physician or veterinarian.

I still maintain that I found many of my undergraduate classes interesting and I am quite convinced that I would have taken biochemistry regardless of whether or not it was required for veterinary school.

As an aside, I was a chemistry major and seriously considered pursuing a Ph.D. in Chemistry as an alternative to medical or veterinary school. Please remember that there are people out there taking the same classes as the pre-med and pre-vet students who are truly in it for the love of the science.

 

[HorseyVet]

vet school admissions is nothing but a game - you pity these people, but look - they're accepted... and quite frankly, i dont think they give a damn about whether you respect them or not.

there's no point in being a martyr and taking a whole bunch of hard classes just so you can say you've challenged yourself and prepared yourself for vet school. Thats just ******ed.

I never said I was a martyr. I encounter a severious illness at the end of my freshman year of undergrad, which was misdiagnosed/treated and continued to worsen for the next year. In order to continue to recieve treatment I needed to remain on health care through my parents that required me to be a full time student. So I took classes, despite not even being able to attend them half the time, and my GPA suffered greatly. When I was better, I thought that the best way to redem myself was in part to show that not only could I get good grades but that I could do so in difficult courses under a very heavy load. I thought that, for example getting A's in biochem and advanced cell phys would over shadow not-so-great grades in 1st year chem and bio, however b/c cum gpa is valued above all, irregardless to large degree of the content of the courses, doing this did not help. It would have been better to take a full load of easy classes and get a 4.0, than in hard classes and get a 3.7.

Not going out of one's way to take difficult classes is one thing. Purposely taking easy classes, especially in the pre-reqs like micro and biochem where often an easier for-nurses version is available, does indicate something about an individuals character. Ultimately what matters is what kind of doctor these individuals become. Personally, I think that a person who strives to know more and who maximizes their education will do bettere academically in school and be a better doctor in practice. Maybe some individuals make a radical change after acceptance, but I have great doubts.

 

[HorseyVet]

Wouldn't the vet schools see that this person carried a super light load then? I would think they must have scored a high GPA with a respectable course load in order for it to have credibility.

They do but typically the way they account for it isn't enough to make it bad to take said approach. GPA is typically around 20-50% of your application score. Academic content and trend (grades going up or down) may account for 0-10% of the qualitative evaluation, usually placed within the score/percentage that the interview counts. So there really isn't any way to account for individual tht had a bad year, but then excelled for 3 in harder courses. Those individuals will never be comparable to someone that performed adequately for all 4.

Because a fair enough number of applicants have "non-traditional" academic trends, or are outwrightly non-traditional students, there is a concern at some schools to find a new way to evaluate these individuals by using a slightly different set of criteria. Doing this is by far not completely adapated or developed at most schools (if any), but at least the concern and recognition of the problem is happening.

 

[gregMD]

I never said I was a martyr. I encounter a severious illness at the end of my freshman year of undergrad, which was misdiagnosed/treated and continued to worsen for the next year. In order to continue to recieve treatment I needed to remain on health care through my parents that required me to be a full time student. So I took classes, despite not even being able to attend them half the time, and my GPA suffered greatly. When I was better, I thought that the best way to redem myself was in part to show that not only could I get good grades but that I could do so in difficult courses under a very heavy load. I thought that, for example getting A's in biochem and advanced cell phys would over shadow not-so-great grades in 1st year chem and bio, however b/c cum gpa is valued above all, irregardless to large degree of the content of the courses, doing this did not help. It would have been better to take a full load of easy classes and get a 4.0, than in hard classes and get a 3.7.

Not going out of one's way to take difficult classes is one thing. Purposely taking easy classes, especially in the pre-reqs like micro and biochem where often an easier for-nurses version is available, does indicate something about an individuals character. Ultimately what matters is what kind of doctor these individuals become. Personally, I think that a person who strives to know more and who maximizes their education will do bettere academically in school and be a better doctor in practice. Maybe some individuals make a radical change after acceptance, but I have great doubts.

thats a noble way to think about admissions... unfortunately, admissions to med/vet school is anything but noble.

its a numbers game - you get the grades, you get the points on the gre, and BAM your in. Its not about how hard your course load was... Take you for example... 3.7 is fantastic - and good for you... but compared to a 4.0 student, your 3.7 doesn't cut it. It may not be right, but its the way it is.

That leaves you with two options: one, you take the moral high road and challenge yourself, and although your knowledge base may be better off for it, you disadvantage yourself academically; or, two - you play the game, take easy courses whith a high potential for success and ace everything. Guess who is gettin in? Thats right - the person who knows how to play the game.

Students often ask me about what they should take... my advice: take something you KNOW you will excel at, and make sure you get as high as grades as possible. An A in basket-weaving will bet an A- is advanced protein biochemistry any day.

You gotta be able to know how to work the system to your advantage.

ps. Your undergraduate knowledge base (although it wont hurt) will in all probability, have little to no bearing on your proficiency as a clinician. Thats what med/vet school is for. The UK and Australia dont have undergrad for their students - they go from high school to med/vet - and they produce some of the best clinicians in the world.

 

[miltonmcdougall]

This discussion is a good one, but it seems to be a little off topic under this thread. Deanna, I don’t know if you will read this, but is there anyway to move a chunk of posts from one thread to another?

My gut feeling regarding the jaded pre-med phenomenon is that pre-meds are not especially disinterested people. The classes they take (and the ones we take with them) are crowded and, by nature, impersonal. Setting yourself apart from the crowd in a course with 100+ students takes a lot of gumption. While I tend to participate in class and interact on at least basic level with professors and TAs, I do this mainly because I could not learn otherwise. Once students reach upper division elective biology and chemistry courses, my guess is med-student interest rises.

Anecdotally, my animal science classes are much smaller and, as a result, students engage with actual professors. Additionally, in those classes where pre-vets are little more than a number, they tend to take laissez-fair approach similar to the pre-meds’.

I’d like to see if there are any biochemistry or biology majors who take courses outside the strict pre-med/vet/dent tract have contradictory evidence or care to comment about this.

Ok, this is fun. I'll play. My undergraduate majors were English Literature and Psychology. I took my science classes as a post bacc. In my experience, any larger survey course, whether it's Psych 101, English Comp., Intro. Biology or Chemistry, tends to generate less curiosity from the class as a whole. They're part of the process, something to endure. I will say this: The English majors, for whatever reason, seemed to be much more "into" their studies particularly later on, in the upper level classes. In general though, I think that there are pre-meds, pre-vets, and pre-dents alike that are disinterested, but by the same token, there are many who are truly passionate. Personally, I think that a lack of interest in Orgo is completely understandable. It's often presented without any context, and that really make anything absolute drudgery, I think. It's only later on that you really see the full breadth of its application, and that, for me at least, was the point at which the pieces began to fall in place, and I developed more interest than I had previously had. Anyway, that's a little off topic. In response to the question, yeah, I think that early disinterest is pretty universal, whatever the field.

 

[Olddodger]

Hi all,

Not to add to an already hot discussion, but I was doing a lab the other day (bacterial cultures) and a point was made by the TA to lable the dishes on the bottom.

So I'm like 😕 ? Whats up with that? He told me that is to avoid anyone "messing" with your experiement.

I though he was kidding me. "You mean there are people that will intentionally **** with your experiment?" I ask. He looks at me like I just got off the bus from Iowa and says "oh yea, especially in grad school".

I though he was yanking my chain until the prof looks at me and tells me the same thing.

I can't believe ANYONE would do that or would intentially sabotage another's work or effort. Man, that's low rent, and if the system encourages this, then something is seriously messed up.

IMHO...

Best,
Oldie

 

[2Bsure]

Personally, I think that a lack of interest in Orgo is completely understandable. It's often presented without any context, and that really make anything absolute drudgery, I think. It's only later on that you really see the full breadth of its application, and that, for me at least, was the point at which the pieces began to fall in place, and I developed more interest than I had previously had.

My organic II class was actually one of the more interesting classes I have taken, but only because the lecturer was good. He would fill his lectures with amusing anecdotes and discuss the "real world" applications of the chemistry. I'm not big into illicit drugs, but talking about the last step in MDMA sythesis made imine reductions a little more interesting.

 

[HorseyVet]

So I'm like 😕 ? Whats up with that? He told me that is to avoid anyone "messing" with your experiement.

I though he was kidding me. "You mean there are people that will intentionally **** with your experiment?" I ask. He looks at me like I just got off the bus from Iowa and says "oh yea, especially in grad school".

I though he was yanking my chain until the prof looks at me and tells me the same thing.

I can't believe ANYONE would do that or would intentially sabotage another's work or effort. Man, that's low rent, and if the system encourages this, then something is seriously messed up.

My highschool was that competitive. People would tear the pages out of reserve books so that no one else could complete the assignment. I've seen it first hand in undergrad too....once my physcis class found out I was the one of the people throwing the curve they tried to tell my wrong answers to questions and dates of review sessions etc. It was pretty frustrating.

btw...you label the bottom of the plates b/c if you label the tops, and you've marked specific quadrants/colonies, then if the lid slides around you won't loose what you marked. It's just a good habit to get into.

 

[Olddodger]

My highschool was that competitive. People would tear the pages out of reserve books so that no one else could complete the assignment. I've seen it first hand in undergrad too....once my physcis class found out I was the one of the people throwing the curve they tried to tell my wrong answers to questions and dates of review sessions etc. It was pretty frustrating.

Not cool. Not cool at all. People like that need to get a life and figure out its a journey, not a destination.

But kids arn't stupid. If you set up the rules, you can bet they'll figure out a way to "game" the system, and that is the result.

btw...you label the bottom of the plates b/c if you label the tops, and you've marked specific quardrants/colonies, then if the lid slides around you won't loose what you marked. It's just a good habit to get into.

Heh, I knew there was more to it that that..thanks for the tip!

Best,
Oldie

 

[verbal_kint]

You also don't label the tops of the plates because not only can the lid slide around, but you can lose the lid or mix it up with other lids. Plus, I don't really see how labeling the lid would prevent someone from "messing with it." Properly stored plates are stored with the lid down and the agar on the top. This prevents condensation from building up and water dripping onto your plates, which obviously wouldn't be ideal if you're plating for single colonies.

I really don't buy the idea that labeling the tops will prevent terrorist acts. It really wouldn't be hard to go "these are mine plates; I will screw up the other ones."

 

[dara678]

agreed. the whole reason you label the bottom plate and not the cover is because the covers are removable and you can get them mixed up -- and if you do, your experiment is completely trashed.

i don't know to what extent the posters on this forum have been exposed to medicine ... but in my experience, learning undergrad science classes have very little to do with understanding pathological processes. they are prerequirements to getting into med/vet school, but they aren't required to be an md/vet. that's why those courses are taught (in a much more condensed and clinically relevant manner) in grad school.

i tend to agree with gregmd ... and just because you have very little interest in basic science doesn't mean that you aren't interested in pathological processes and treating them.

 

[medtechv79]

By the very fact that you go into veterinary medicine knowing that the compensation may not match the qualifications, you are more likely to be in it because you have compassion for animals. Part of your reward is in helping and making a difference. This may change as you have worked for many years, and at some point the compassion may be replaced with some other negative feelings, or you may go into a specialty that doesn't require any compassion, but that's a separate discussion.

On the other hand, SEVERAL people go into human medicine believing that it will give them higher social status and financial success. SEVERAL people go into human medicine because that's what their parents pushed them to become all their lives. To many that are driven by competition itself, it's about going for "gold." I'm not saying this explains all of it or that all pre-meds are like that, but this surely accounts for a portion of the different attitudes.

As far as the pre-req classes, maybe it's just me, but I actually find science, math and biology INTERESTING.

HAHA! I have to wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph there. I know a friend who went to med school b/c of the social status/financial success. She's completing her internship right now. Is she happy? no. I think she wants to end up working for the government. hahaha.

I know alot of vets and even some human doctors are disillusioned with their professions....I think that's the nature of the jobs. No job is without pros and cons. I think ultimately you decide if the choice u made is the right one for you.

Which is what I'm still in the process of doing..... 😕

 

[medtechv79]

maybe once you actually get into vet./med school, you'll realize that they re-teach you all the biochemistry you'll have to know (maybe not all schools do this). That's why i said that the pre-req biochemistry class was a hoop. And further to this, there's absolutely no point in talking to you about assessing a patients condition because you've got no concept of clinical medicine (if you're sitting there thinking about the patients electron transport system, or how they're replicating their DNA than you're wasting your, and the patients time). The biochemistry you learn in vet or med school is far more complex than basic biochemistry, and if you read what i wrote, i said that BASIC biochemistry has nothing to do with pathology.

by the way, yay for your mom...

oy vey....you are very condescending....and what's with this holier than thou attitude? You need to take a chill pill dude.

No offense, I think your lack of sleep on your residency training, might be making you a little cranky.....

 

[mochavet]

He looks at me like I just got off the bus from Iowa and says "oh yea, especially in grad school".

Best,
Oldie

Hey, I grew up in Iowa, I resent that statement!

 

[Olddodger]

Hey, I grew up in Iowa, I resent that statement!

What's to resent? That Iowa is filled with nice, polite, cooperative people? As opposed the to ratio of a'holes in Florida, which is rapidly approaching 1:1.

Besides, I used to live in SoDak, and Iowa was a metropolitan ceter in comparason.

Oldie