Competitive specialities and Research

[7331poas]

Generally speaking, how early should a student decide definitively on a given specialty and start taking research projects to remain reasonably competitive for that field.

For instance, lets say you were looking to match Ortho or NSG (or any other specialty of that type), is it a detriment to wait until 3rd year/Step 1 score release to decide and start taking projects? If so, when should a student consider starting to take projects?

Thanks.

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[WedgeDawg]

you can always take a research year

 

[FindersFee5]

Summer after M1 year is going to be one of the most free times in your schedule throughout medical school. If you don't want to take a research year and know you're interested in a competitive specialty, this is a great time to start some research.

 

[7331poas]

you can always take a research year

Summer after M1 year is going to be one of the most free times in your schedule throughout medical school. If you don't want to take a research year and know you're interested in a competitive specialty, this is a great time to start some research.

I am an incoming M1. I am absolutely against taking a research year if possible. Id rather just revert to a different specialty if it came to that.

My school does things pretty accelerated, pre-clinical finishes in a year and 1 month or so. We then immediately start clerkships. Only around 1 or 2 weeks of summer vacation. However we have about 9 months of free time/research before September of M4. We are similar to Duke in that respect.

My main question is what should the game plan be for these kinds of specialties? Is it better to just start doing research during M1 just to be safe?

 

[Gorne]

I am an incoming M1. I am absolutely against taking a research year if possible. Id rather just revert to a different specialty if it came to that.

My school does things pretty accelerated, pre-clinical finishes in a year and 1 month or so. However we have about 9 months of free time/research before September of M4. We are similar to Duke in that respect.

My main question is what should the game plan be for these kinds of specialties? Is it better to just start doing research during M1 just to be safe?

Yes, if you're planning on pursuing a competitive specialty you don't have the luxury of taking the summer off between M1 & M2. It's not absolutely necessary to do research in the field of interest, but it helps. If you're set on plastics for example, plastics research is best, but research on how celiac disease causes skin issues is also good. Do you get meaning out of your research is more important. Residencies want to see you were able to maintain high grades while balancing research and are familiar with what it takes to take an idea and turn it into a poster/paper.

Waiting until M3 is absolutely not the right move if you're thinking a competitive specialty. Even if you do get research after M1, you're still not "safe".

 

[7331poas]

Yes, if you're planning on pursuing a competitive specialty you don't have the luxury of taking the summer off between M1 & M2. It's not absolutely necessary to do research in the field of interest, but it helps. If you're set on plastics for example, plastics research is best, but research on how celiac disease causes skin issues is also good. Do you get meaning out of your research is more important. Residencies want to see you were able to maintain high grades while balancing research and are familiar with what it takes to take an idea and turn it into a poster/paper.

Waiting until M3 is absolutely not the right move if you're thinking a competitive specialty. Even if you do get research after M1, you're still not "safe".

Do you advise starting a project during M1 and consistently do projects throughout M1 through M3?

 

[WedgeDawg]

I am an incoming M1. I am absolutely against taking a research year if possible. Id rather just revert to a different specialty if it came to that.

My school does things pretty accelerated, pre-clinical finishes in a year and 1 month or so. We then immediately start clerkships. Only around 1 or 2 weeks of summer vacation. However we have about 9 months of free time/research before September of M4. We are similar to Duke in that respect.

My main question is what should the game plan be for these kinds of specialties? Is it better to just start doing research during M1 just to be safe?

Then early research is better, and continue it whenever you have time

 

[Gorne]

Do you advise starting a project during M1 and consistently do projects throughout M1 through M3?

Yes. It’s not as easy as it sounds.

 

[7331poas]

Yes. It’s not as easy as it sounds.

Oh im sure.

 

[raiderette]

It is cynical, but my mentor always said that cancer covers almost every specialty. The summer between M1 and M2 should yield some research. Basic bench research can work for any specialty.

 

[7331poas]

It is cynical, but my mentor always said that cancer covers almost every specialty. The summer between M1 and M2 should yield some research. Basic bench research can work for any specialty.

I basically do not have an M1 summer.

 

[DNC127]

gotta gun. If you are pretty sure you want something you have to go huevos deep to get it. Just finished 2nd year with 10+ peer reviewed pubs most in the field I want. Sucks super hard.... but if you know what you want you gotta go take it. Cant sit back and let others steal your spot. If you don't know and you decide late you may need to get lucky 3rd year with the pubs/mentors you get or consider a research year.

 

[7331poas]

gotta gun. If you are pretty sure you want something you have to go huevos deep to get it. Just finished 2nd year with 10+ peer reviewed pubs most in the field I want. Sucks super hard.... but if you know what you want you gotta go take it. Cant sit back and let others steal your spot. If you don't know and you decide late you may need to get lucky 3rd year with the pubs/mentors you get or consider a research year.

Okay sounds good.

I am super interested in ortho or nsg, primarily because I find the pathology fascinating (of which admittedly I know little). The problem is that I don't have a home nsg program. But I think I may still be able to snag research from attendings regardless.

Thanks for the input, I will probably start putting out feelers well within M1.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

gotta gun. If you are pretty sure you want something you have to go huevos deep to get it. Just finished 2nd year with 10+ peer reviewed pubs most in the field I want. Sucks super hard.... but if you know what you want you gotta go take it. Cant sit back and let others steal your spot. If you don't know and you decide late you may need to get lucky 3rd year with the pubs/mentors you get or consider a research year.

Wow 10+?? What's your secret? Did you get lucky with a productive lab? Move around doing different projects? Multiple projects at the same time?

 

[7331poas]

I wouldn't recommend bench research though. I worked 2 years full time in bench work and got 1 2nd author basic science paper and 1 conference poster. I worked very hard, often 6 days a week.

In med school, I worked maybe 3 weekends on a clinical research project and got 2 major national conference poster presentations and a manuscript. I plan on going back to basic science research in residency and beyond, but now is the time to focus on doing what you need to do to match

Is it true that NSG prefers basic research? If yes, would you recommend sticking to clinical research regardless?

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Is it true that NSG prefers basic research? If yes, would you recommend sticking to clinical research regardless?

Based on the two nsg residents with AMAs on sdn, basic research does carry more weight, but there's a much larger risk that you won't be productive, which is far more important. So I guess it's another pick your poison?

 

[WedgeDawg]

Is it true that NSG prefers basic research? If yes, would you recommend sticking to clinical research regardless?

Stick to clinical unless you have a specific reason or motivation to do basic research.

 

[mw18]

Do clinical spine research. Cover both bases and try to get yourself in on creating a database for clinical research. Then just milk that database for a million publications.

 

[7331poas]

Do clinical spine research. Cover both bases and try to get yourself in on creating a database for clinical research. Then just milk that database for a million publications.

Thanks for the suggestion. I almost feel safer going that route because I have a home ortho program, but not nsg.

 

[mw18]

Thanks for the suggestion. I almost feel safer going that route because I have a home ortho program, but not nsg.

Yeah, easier with a home program. But they both do spine.

 

[RockMcat520]

What if I do General surgery research then I change my mind after M2 and would like to pursue ortho?? Lets say I have General surgery and ortho in mind, which research do I pursue? Thanks

 

[Dox4lyfe]

What if I do General surgery research then I change my mind after M2 and would like to pursue ortho?? Lets say I have General surgery and ortho in mind, which research do I pursue? Thanks

General consensus is to do research in the more competitive specialty. Also, especially for ortho, you should have speciality specific research to be as competitive as possible.

 

[RockMcat520]

General consensus is to do research in the more competitive specialty. Also, especially for ortho, you should have speciality specific research to be as competitive as possible.

Ive realized after speaking with so many physicians that its very hard to get published in ortho. Does anyone know what is the average papers published in ortho?

 

[DNC127]

Wow 10+?? What's your secret? Did you get lucky with a productive lab? Move around doing different projects? Multiple projects at the same time?

lucky to have a productive group, but also just put in the extra work. First year I probably averaged 4hrs a day on research, second year probably 1-2. I have also just gotten good at knowing what journals will want in my writing, I have had multiple manuscripts accepted without revisions so this speeds the process up quite a bit. Hoping to have 25+ on my app when I apply.

 

[DrJaySomeday]

Ive realized after speaking with so many physicians that its very hard to get published in ortho. Does anyone know what is the average papers published in ortho?

Use Charting Outcomes for the Match to find data on "average" stats and the like. Ortho was at 8.2 publications, presentations and abstracts last this document came out for matched applicants. No one can say how many items of those 8.2 were full manuscript papers, but I'd reckon it'd be at least 2-3 considering you could use those 2-3 manuscripts to reach the average 8 with associated presentations and abstracts of the intermittent data.

 

[tymont12]

Use Charting Outcomes for the Match to find data on "average" stats and the like. Ortho was at 8.2 publications, presentations and abstracts last this document came out for matched applicants. No one can say how many items of those 8.2 were full manuscript papers, but I'd reckon it'd be at least 2-3 considering you could use those 2-3 manuscripts to reach the average 8 with associated presentations and abstracts of the intermittent data.

There was a publication recently where they Pubmed searched all of the new PGY-1 residents listed on ortho program websites. I don't remember the exact details, but they found something like the average person had 0.8 publications and within the top 25 programs, it was like 1.8.

Definitely lower than I initially thought.

 

[7331poas]

Use Charting Outcomes for the Match to find data on "average" stats and the like. Ortho was at 8.2 publications, presentations and abstracts last this document came out for matched applicants. No one can say how many items of those 8.2 were full manuscript papers, but I'd reckon it'd be at least 2-3 considering you could use those 2-3 manuscripts to reach the average 8 with associated presentations and abstracts of the intermittent data.

Those average stats are misleading. A presentation is very different from a publication

 

[DrJaySomeday]

Those average stats are misleading. A presentation is very different from a publication

I thought that the significant difference in workload was implied when I said no can say how many are full manuscript publications. If that wasn't clear, then yes, I agree. I can and have thrown together multiple presentations in an afternoon whereas I've had full manuscripts that start to finish were a two year process with revisions and resubmissions. That's why my advice to pre-clinical students reading this would be to start early.

 

[DrJaySomeday]

There was a publication recently where they Pubmed searched all of the new PGY-1 residents listed on ortho program websites. I don't remember the exact details, but they found something like the average person had 0.8 publications and within the top 25 programs, it was like 1.8.

Definitely lower than I initially thought.

That's really cool. I hadn't heard about that, thanks for the tip could be an interesting read! I had a feeling those numbers could also possibly be inflated due to people reporting papers/presentations that are 'accepted' but not yet published or the conference for the presentation hasn't happened yet. Would really decrease the stress of the process if there was some more transparency on numbers like that.

 

[tymont12]

That's really cool. I hadn't heard about that, thanks for the tip could be an interesting read! I had a feeling those numbers could also possibly be inflated due to people reporting papers/presentations that are 'accepted' but not yet published or the conference for the presentation hasn't happened yet. Would really decrease the stress of the process if there was some more transparency on numbers like that.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting as well. I tried to find the study but I can't locate it.

 

[RockMcat520]

Do you guys recommend starting research fall of MS1?

 

[Gurby]

Do you guys recommend starting research fall of MS1?

I would highly recommend trying to get involved asap, assuming you can put in time consistently while still passing classes.

Your classmates are all going to wait until M1->M2 summer. If you can set aside 4 hours/week for research early on, there will be less med student competition and you will have many more options WRT who you work with and what projects you can claim for yourself. If you're lucky and your PI likes you, you may very well just be handed a bunch of papers on a silver platter because you're there and willing to do the grunt work that nobody else is around to do. Also the sooner you start building relationships and getting your face known around your home department the better, probably.

 

[Dr. Scribe]

Do you guys think that someone with a 24x Step 1 score, 2 manuscripts in Basic science research (1 second and 1 third author, cancer related), and average preclinical/clinical grades would have a good chance at matching a competitive specialty (think surgical subspecialty)?

Also assume no red flags and decent interview skills....applicant is US MD

 

[LoGo]

gotta gun. If you are pretty sure you want something you have to go huevos deep to get it. Just finished 2nd year with 10+ peer reviewed pubs most in the field I want. Sucks super hard.... but if you know what you want you gotta go take it. Cant sit back and let others steal your spot. If you don't know and you decide late you may need to get lucky 3rd year with the pubs/mentors you get or consider a research year.

I agree. For competitive things, there's not much time to waste. Efforts must be doubled.

Okay sounds good.

I am super interested in ortho or nsg, primarily because I find the pathology fascinating (of which admittedly I know little). The problem is that I don't have a home nsg program. But I think I may still be able to snag research from attendings regardless.

Thanks for the input, I will probably start putting out feelers well within M1.

TBH, I never understood the dual interest in ortho/nsg, aside from being a wealthy yet busy AF surgeon. All the nsg people usually hate bones or find them boring and the ortho people often dislike the spine the most out of all bones. But I guess every now and then there's someone who just loves spines or has some connection to spinal diseases. Pathology-wise though, the two fields are very, very different: Ortho is 95% macro-mechanical (i.e. man fall, bone broke), whereas nsg is far more physiology based, and also more microscopic processes. Surgically, ortho is all about restoring "normal" anatomy whereas nsg is usually more about removing or correcting abnormal processes. Outside of spines, I think you need to decide whether you have more interest in the skull/brain vs the peripheral skeleton and why, and really what sort of pathology you like. At the same time, I would investigate PMR as that might have a bit of both worlds.

Ive realized after speaking with so many physicians that its very hard to get published in ortho. Does anyone know what is the average papers published in ortho?

No that's not entirely correct (it's probably middle of the road in terms of what specialties are hard to publish in). Ortho journal reviewers are a hassle though.

 

[FindersFee5]

TBH, I never understood the dual interest in ortho/nsg, aside from being a wealthy yet busy AF surgeon. All the nsg people usually hate bones or find them boring and the ortho people often dislike the spine the most out of all bones. But I guess every now and then there's someone who just loves spines or has some connection to spinal diseases. Pathology-wise though, the two fields are very, very different: Ortho is 95% macro-mechanical (i.e. man fall, bone broke), whereas nsg is far more physiology based, and also more microscopic processes. Surgically, ortho is all about restoring "normal" anatomy whereas nsg is usually more about removing or correcting abnormal processes. Outside of spines, I think you need to decide whether you have more interest in the skull/brain vs the peripheral skeleton and why, and really what sort of pathology you like. At the same time, I would investigate PMR as that might have a bit of both worlds.

I think something that connects ortho and NSG are people who really like their toys. Both specialties have some of the coolest surgical tools available.

 

[LoGo]

I don't think that fully explains it. Most surgical specialties, except maybe plastics, have numerous toys. Heck even procedural specialties like IR, derm and cardiology can have fancy equipment - there is innovation happening everywhere. From a tech perspective, the two are far apart as NSG toys are refined image-guiding systems, endovascular, and some cool experimental stuff - and it speaks to the type of surgery they do, which is far more delicate than ortho. Comparatively, ortho toys are really just hardware and expensive versions of things found at the local Home Depot, again speaking to the large-scale type of surgery they do. In my class, the people who chose their specialty based on fancy equipment were more into ophtho, radiology (IR), urology.

I think the more likely explanation for most cases of ortho/NSG dual interest is the fact they are the 2 most competitive surgical specialties with the highest income for those who don't like/don't want plastics, and it just so happens that they share the spine sometimes so can work to hedge your residency bet early on in med school. A bit like if you were torn between derm and plastics - there's some overlap between the specialties, allowing flexibility in gunning early on, but the day to day is usually very different between the two. US Residency Competitiveness, Future Salary, and Burnout in Primary Care vs Specialty Fields

 

[FindersFee5]

I don't think that fully explains it. Most surgical specialties, except maybe plastics, have numerous toys. Heck even procedural specialties like IR, derm and cardiology can have fancy equipment - there is innovation happening everywhere. From a tech perspective, the two are far apart as NSG toys are refined image-guiding systems, endovascular, and some cool experimental stuff - and it speaks to the type of surgery they do, which is far more delicate than ortho. Comparatively, ortho toys are really just hardware and expensive versions of things found at the local Home Depot, again speaking to the large-scale type of surgery they do. In my class, the people who chose their specialty based on fancy equipment were more into ophtho, radiology (IR), urology.

I think the more likely explanation for most cases of ortho/NSG dual interest is the fact they are the 2 most competitive surgical specialties with the highest income for those who don't like/don't want plastics, and it just so happens that they share the spine sometimes so can work to hedge your residency bet early on in med school. A bit like if you were torn between derm and plastics - there's some overlap between the specialties, allowing flexibility in gunning early on, but the day to day is usually very different between the two. US Residency Competitiveness, Future Salary, and Burnout in Primary Care vs Specialty Fields

That's fair. I've definitely seen that type of student before. Still not sure why ENT doesn't get thrown in with the other two as frequently. Not hardcore enough?

And as somebody gunning for plastics: I'm pretty happy I don't need to contend as much with the pathologic gunners who do things just because they're difficult.

 

[hungryhippos]

gotta gun. If you are pretty sure you want something you have to go huevos deep to get it. Just finished 2nd year with 10+ peer reviewed pubs most in the field I want. Sucks super hard.... but if you know what you want you gotta go take it. Cant sit back and let others steal your spot. If you don't know and you decide late you may need to get lucky 3rd year with the pubs/mentors you get or consider a research year.

how were you able to get 10+ pubs in 2 years? were you first or second author for these pubs