Competitive Specialties as a Class of 2024 D.O.

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I'm an incoming D.O. student about to start medical school this month at an osteopathic medical school. I always knew that being a DO would hinder me in terms of specializing, but I saw a phenomenal Step 1 score and AOA specialized programs (ortho for example) as a chance for me to keep doors open in case I like something competitive. There's a handful (2-5) of students that end up matching into each of ortho/derm/optho/plastics from my school every year according to the match list. I was always able to get into an MD, with a near perfect GPA and a phenomenal MCAT score. Why I ended up doing D.O. is a long story but it can be summed up into staying home was a priority. If you want to convince me as to why that was a bad decision don't waste your time. Also, I didn't know step 1 would be pass/fail and thought I could outscore my "DO-ness" lol.

My question is that now that AOA/ACGME has merged into one and Step 1 is P/F, what is my best bet to ensure that I can be capable for competitive residencies, starting ASAP. Literally about to start first year of med school in a few weeks. Are my chances even there? I know international graduates nowadays are in a really scary spot as they can do everything right and still get screwed out of the best specialties but is that the case for DO's too? I really do believe that the step 1 p/f and acgme/aoa merger hurt DO's and helped high-tier MD students a ton and it's kinda disappointing because a lot of us could have gotten into MD's but we chose the DO school due to a genuine interest in osteopathy and location as well as other factors. Living at home is so much smarter financially and better for a lot of us mentally as we have good support systems at home.

Regardless, the DO vs. MD conversation is for another day, but if anyone can chime in on how in the current climate us new D.O. students that now will apply to a merged residency system and not have a scored step 1 could do, that would be great. Some thoughts I had were that obviously Step 2 CK is going to be important, and I plan on killing that as standardized tests have always been my forte. Some research will obviously be necessary, but I'd prefer to do it in the field I'm applying to and I won't really know for a fact until rotations... any recommendations for someone to do research in first year? What else is vital to me being competitive?

Lastly, keep in mind that I also have EM/anesthesia in mind I know going into a DO school expecting to come out as an orthopedic surgeon is far-fetched; I'm a realist. My goal isn't to pick the most competitive/prestigous specialty, I just want to know that during rotations when I find the specialties I enjoy/love I can be competitive for them. I just know I won't do IM/FM because I really do prefer knowing everything about something rather than something about everything, so I really do prefer to specialize.

 

[Sardonix]

I get wanting to specialize, but what are your reasons for wanting to do a "competitive" specialty?

Cardio, ortho, IR, ENT are incredibly different specialties that are only united by having to work your ass off to get into and through them... and boat loads of money once you do.

There is no secret sauce to getting into any of these, only the obvious advice: do well in class, do well on your boards (Step2 being the priority now that Step1 is P/F), make network connections, and do quality research relevant to the specialty (which then leads into getting more connections). That's a mountain of tasks to do, but it's also nearly impossible to do for for all of them above.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Crush step 2. It’s your only chance now. If you can go MD, you should do that. It’s worth the extra year. As a DO going for some of the fields you mentioned, you’ll have to be twice as good for half the opportunity as an MD student. Doing research in any of the fields you mentioned will be entirely on you to find on your own from local MD programs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Take a year and go MD.

 

[Don21juan]

I disagree. Ur a beast for getting into a 7 year program and probably taking instate tuition I hope?. From what I’ve seen, U can do whatever specialty u want as a DO - even with the merger , there are still going to be de facto DO and MD programs. Which means there’s always a bunch of DO residency spots for the specialties. Albeit smaller programs- but a program nonetheless.

The catch is that it will not be mass general or any top tier hospital most likely. There will always be DO residency positions for every specialty. You can be wte u want to be as a DO given u have the scores the correspond to that specialty . But the main concern is going to be getting into a top tier training program. And if that’s more important to you than a year or two of doctor salary then I’d say go for it

It seems that u have what it takes to beat out a majority of md students even, and id say stick w DO and take don’t waste the opportunity cost of a year of applying and then the stress and all that goes w that

 

[Ho0v-man]

I disagree. Ur a beast for getting into a 7 year program and probably taking instate tuition I hope?. From what I’ve seen, U can do whatever specialty u want as a DO - even with the merger , there are still going to be de facto DO and MD programs. Which means there’s always a bunch of DO residency spots for the specialties. Albeit smaller programs- but a program nonetheless.

The catch is that it will not be mass general or any top tier hospital most likely. There will always be DO residency positions for every specialty. You can be wte u want to be as a DO given u have the scores the correspond to that specialty . But the main concern is going to be getting into a top tier training program. And if that’s more important to you than a year or two of doctor salary then I’d say go for it

It seems that u have what it takes to beat out a majority of md students even, and id say stick w DO and take don’t waste the opportunity cost of a year of applying and then the stress and all that goes w that

This poster is a pre med. AnatomyGrey and I are 4th year DO students applying to moderately competitive specialties.

Choose to believe what you want.

 

[Chibucks15]

This poster is a pre med. AnatomyGrey and I are 4th year DO students applying to moderately competitive specialties.

Choose to believe what you want.

I can’t believe it’s been 4 years going back and forth on here with you guys haha time flies when you’re drinking from the firehose

 

[Don21juan]

This poster is a pre med. AnatomyGrey and I are 4th year DO students applying to moderately competitive specialties.

Choose to believe what you want.

In that case I stand very much corrected.

I do have some questions though. Would u say my evaluation is reallyyyy far off?
Like what is the process then for you guys now applying to competitive specialties. No offense but it kinda sounds hopeless from your perspective. Am I misreading ?

Thanks

 

[slowthai]

I disagree. Ur a beast for getting into a 7 year program and probably taking instate tuition I hope?. From what I’ve seen, U can do whatever specialty u want as a DO - even with the merger , there are still going to be de facto DO and MD programs. Which means there’s always a bunch of DO residency spots for the specialties. Albeit smaller programs- but a program nonetheless.

There aren't a bunch of spots for DOs. Even pre-merger the DO ortho match was extremely competitive, with a match rate in the 40-50s. I believe ENT was similar. About doing whatever specialty you want, Charting the Outcomes says otherwise. None matched integrated plastics or thoracic (I6) this year. Only one matched nsg. This doesn't even account for all the people that didn't even receive any interviews.

I agree with everyone else that your best bet is to go MD if you still can. You don't understand how much harder your life gets as a DO, in so many ways. You will be doing med school, which is already hard, on hard mode.

That said, if you go DO, you're gonna have to smash level 1 and step 2, kill your auditions, and have good research output. You should hop on the research train fast; no point in waiting until third year. Even if you change your mind by that time, you'll have the skills and experience to be able to immediately contribute and be productive in your specialty of choice. You'll hopefully have a pub on your CV as well.

 

[deleted898021]

There aren't a bunch of spots for DOs. Even pre-merger the DO ortho match was extremely competitive, with a match rate in the 40-50s. I believe ENT was similar. About doing whatever specialty you want, Charting the Outcomes says otherwise. None matched integrated plastics or thoracic (I6) this year. Only one matched nsg. This doesn't even account for all the people that didn't even receive any interviews.

I agree with everyone else that your best bet is to go MD if you still can. You don't understand how much harder your life gets as a DO, in so many ways. You will be doing med school, which is already hard, on hard mode.

That said, if you go DO, you're gonna have to smash level 1 and step 2, kill your auditions, and have good research output. You should hop on the research train fast; no point in waiting until third year. Even if you change your mind by that time, you'll have the skills and experience to be able to immediately contribute and be productive in your specialty of choice. You'll hopefully have a pub on your CV as well.

Just to correct some of your facts, 2 matched neurosurgery, pretty sure one matched I6 CT surgery, 1 DO grad matched integrated plastics, also the outcomes isn’t taking into account people who take a research year after graduation and then match, all those specialties had DO grads match after a year off, I think 6-7 DO grads matched ortho. going DO you will prbly need to take a research year after graduation or take an extra year or do intern year or something, DO’s have to do this to get pubs and to get an app competitive enough, if they do this and their scores are decent for the specialty then matching into those specialties gets much more doable, this info is coming straight from alumni from my school who matched into ENT and Derm at traditional MD programs. Both had to take an extra year by doing research fellowships or doing an intern year and getting pubs. Keep in mind that MD’s have to do this as well from time to time but as a DO it’s almost a requirement if you want traditional MD programs in the competitive specialties..

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You can be wte u want to be as a DO given u have the scores the correspond to that specialty .

The average COMLEX score for ortho is a 656. The ortho match rate for applicants in the 650-700 grouping is 75%. The average Step score for MD's to ortho is 248, the match rate in the 241-250 bin is 85%, and if you broke that down to the 245-250 grouping I would bet good money that jumps to 90%+.

Would u say my evaluation is reallyyyy far off?

Yes and no. Yes it is possible to be anything as a DO, but the climb is so much more difficult as a DO. You will NEVER be given the same opportunities as a DO regardless of how good your app is.

Like what is the process then for you guys now applying to competitive specialties. No offense but it kinda sounds hopeless from your perspective. Am I misreading ?

Crush boards, pump out research, audition like crazy (not this year, RIP), and hope you are in the ~70% that matches with your application. If your only option is a DO school then you take it and work your butt off, but if you have a choice then you should always go MD.

You don't understand how much harder your life gets as a DO, in so many ways.

This. It's really hard to get through to pre-meds into just what going DO means. So much is sacrificed that you don't even think about. I thought I was fully prepared and going eyes wide open, but even I didn't really understand it. It goes beyond just the match. At a fundamental level all DO schools will hinder you significantly compared to any MD school.

Everyone should be looking at this assuming they will be an average medical student, even people like OP. I have personally seen people with great incoming stats be VERY mediocre in med school. An average MD will have so many more doors open to them than an average DO. In every single specialty.

That said, if you go DO, you're gonna have to smash level 1 and step 2, kill your auditions, and have good research output. You should hop on the research train fast; no point in waiting until third year. Even if you change your mind by that time, you'll have the skills and experience to be able to immediately contribute and be productive in your specialty of choice. You'll hopefully have a pub on your CV as well.

This OP.

Keep in mind that MD’s have to do this as well from time to time but as a DO it’s almost a requirement if you want traditional MD programs in the competitive specialties..

That's kind of the point though, that as a DO even if you do all of this your chances are significantly lower than an MD's.

I stand by my statement. If OP really is as good of a medical school applicant as they say they are, they need to take a year and apply MD.

 

[Ho0v-man]

In that case I stand very much corrected.

I do have some questions though. Would u say my evaluation is reallyyyy far off?
Like what is the process then for you guys now applying to competitive specialties. No offense but it kinda sounds hopeless from your perspective. Am I misreading ?

Thanks

A lot of the inroads DOs have made in the past 10-15 years into competitive specialties have been secondary to having comparable or superior scores on step 1. Even still, we were at a disadvantage because where you go to school matters. That’s going away now and it’s going to be even harder. As far as traditionally DO only spots in competitive specialties, most are gone with the merger but still end up taking DOs bc MDs feel those spots are beneath them. But there’s hundreds more DOs entering the match every year which really hurts your chances to match these fields.

In general, you have to be better than an MD to achieve the same or less as a DO. That sounds reasonable as a premed. But once you get going in med school you start realizing what that really means. This is going to be worse now that we’ve lost step 1 as a way to prove ourselves. We still have step 2, but step 1 wasn’t just for residency apps. It also allowed people to self-select out of competitive fields earlier and was used for a screen in audition rotations. Now that it’s gone, where you go to school will be that much more important.

I think a great example of the difference in opportunity is a thread I saw the other day where a low tier usmd scores a 208 on step 1. People were still saying he/she had a chance at surgery and mid tier IM. Thats just not true as a DO.

People will absolutely still match competitive specialties from DO schools every year. But it’s going to get harder. It’s already harder than it was even 5 years ago. If you’ve got a chance at MD and aren’t interested in primary care, you should absolutely go for it.

 

[slowthai]

Just to correct some of your facts, 2 matched neurosurgery, pretty sure one matched I6 CT surgery, 1 DO grad matched integrated plastics, also the outcomes isn’t taking into account people who take a research year after graduation and then match, all those specialties had DO grads match after a year off, I think 6-7 DO grads matched ortho. going DO you will prbly need to take a research year after graduation or take an extra year or do intern year or something, DO’s have to do this to get pubs and to get an app competitive enough, if they do this and their scores are decent for the specialty then matching into those specialties gets much more doable, this info is coming straight from alumni from my school who matched into ENT and Derm at traditional MD programs. Both had to take an extra year by doing research fellowships or doing an intern year and getting pubs. Keep in mind that MD’s have to do this as well from time to time but as a DO it’s almost a requirement if you want traditional MD programs in the competitive specialties..

Yeah, I was specifically talking about DO seniors in the match, but I agree with the rest of your post for the most part.

Strangely enough, looks like they might have reported the numbers differently in a few of the tables. Like a different table I looked at showed 3 seniors matching neurosurg instead of 1. Weird. Regardless, the point is that matching these specialties is very rare and very hard to do as a DO.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Everyone should be looking at this assuming they will be an average medical student, even people like OP. I have personally seen people with great incoming stats be VERY mediocre in med school. An average MD will have so many more doors open to them than an average DO. In every single specialty.

This. I’ve seen people with perfect apps who would’ve been shoe-ins for top 40 MD schools pick DO just to be near family and get crushed by med school. Having the stats to get in really just means you can probably pass. I don’t think we have reliable metrics to prove if someone will do well.

 

[deleted898021]

A lot of the inroads DOs have made in the past 10-15 years into competitive specialties have been secondary to having comparable or superior scores on step 1. Even still, we were at a disadvantage because where you go to school matters. That’s going away now and it’s going to be even harder. As far as traditionally DO only spots in competitive specialties, most are gone with the merger but still end up taking DOs bc MDs feel those spots are beneath them. But there’s hundreds more DOs entering the match every year which really hurts your chances to match these fields.

In general, you have to be better than an MD to achieve the same or less as a DO. That sounds reasonable as a premed. But once you get going in med school you start realizing what that really means. This is going to be worse now that we’ve lost step 1 as a way to prove ourselves. We still have step 2, but step 1 wasn’t just for residency apps. It also allowed people to self-select out of competitive fields earlier and was used for a screen in audition rotations. Now that it’s gone, where you go to school will be that much more important.

I think a great example of the difference in opportunity is a thread I saw the other day where a low tier usmd scores a 208 on step 1. People were still saying he/she had a chance at surgery and mid tier IM. Thats just not true as a DO.

People will absolutely still match competitive specialties from DO schools every year. But it’s going to get harder. It’s already harder than it was even 5 years ago. If you’ve got a got a chance at MD and aren’t interested in primary care, you should absolutely go for it.

About the 208 USMD tho, for what it’s worth I have seen DO’s match general surgery and mid tier or lower mid tier IM with just comlex, those specialties just aren’t that competitive so I don’t think that means much but yea that 208 USMD Isn’t matching ortho, derm or CT surgery per say...

 

[MrTaco92]

Even before step 1 was pass fail, the only realistically do-able specialties for a DO that you mentioned are pain and cardiology. Those would still be realistic options for you even now though. PM&R is generally an easy match, anesthesia is more competitive but still achievable for a semi-competitive applicant. Both can lead to fellowship in pain. IM is definitely do-able.

 

[Ho0v-man]

About the 208 USMD tho, for what it’s worth I have seen DO’s match general surgery and mid tier or lower mid tier IM with just comlex, those specialties just aren’t that competitive so I don’t think that means much but yea that 208 USMD Isn’t matching ortho, derm or CT surgery per say...

I’ve seen low tier university IM with just comlex. I agree it’s not as competitive as people think.

I’ve seen gen surgery with comlex-only at former DO programs.

Mid tier IM isn’t happening unless someone is playing very fast and loose with the definition of “mid-tier”.

 

[deleted898021]

Even before step 1 was pass fail, the only realistically do-able specialties for a DO that you mentioned are pain and cardiology. Those would still be realistic options for you even now though. PM&R is generally an easy match, anesthesia is more competitive but still achievable for a semi-competitive applicant. Both can lead to fellowship in pain. IM is definitely do-able.

Tell that to the 118 DO’s and DO grads that matched into ortho last year, at least do some homework and research before you give such blanket statements, the overall DO match rate across all usmle and comlex for ortho was a 65.1% soo it’s doable especially at the former aoa programs you will have to work hard and get great scores etc..

 

[deleted898021]

I’ve seen low tier university IM with just comlex. I agree it’s not as competitive as people think.

I’ve seen gen surgery with comlex-only at former DO programs.

Mid tier IM isn’t happening unless someone is playing very fast and loose with the definition of “mid-tier”.

I’ve seen mid tier too, they rotated there and their comlex was decent but if def happens , also seen it with general surgery at the state MD schools gen surgery program.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

for what it’s worth I have seen DO’s match general surgery and mid tier or lower mid tier IM with just comlex, those specialties just aren’t that competitive

GS is moderately competitive. A DO without Step applying MD general surgery is pretty much SOL. Just because it might happen once in a blue moon doesn't mean people should consider it a valid option.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I’ve seen mid tier too, they rotated there and their comlex was decent but if def happens , also seen it with general surgery at the state MD schools gen surgery program.

I’ll call BS in the IM claim and it likely isn’t “mid tier”. I’ve seen 250+/>10 + pub applicants cap out at mid tier IM.

As far as gen surg, I’ll defer the likelihood of that to AnatomyGrey12 as I have little interest in surgical fields. Edit: he beat me to it.

I think this conversation distracts from the original point of the thread. Had that same thread been made by a DO student, there would have been a lot of pessimism. That ignores that the OP of that thread was also trying to match these fields in nyc.

 

[deleted898021]

GS is moderately competitive. A DO without Step applying MD general surgery is pretty much SOL. Just because it might happen once in a blue moon doesn't mean people should consider it a valid option.

Yea I get the trend overall but it’s not impossible in DO friendly states per say..

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yea I get the trend overall but it’s not impossible in DO friendly states per say..

Hey I know me and Anat seem like we’re ganging up on you, but keep in mind these questions were asked by premeds who still think they’ll easily match at the ceiling of DO potential. Have to keep it real for them.

 

[deleted898021]

I’ll call BS in the IM claim and it likely isn’t “mid tier”. I’ve seen 250+/>10 + pub applicants cap out at mid tier IM.

As far as gen surg, I’ll defer the likelihood of that to AnatomyGrey12 as I have little interest in surgical fields. Edit: he beat me to it.

I think this conversation distracts from the original point of the thread. Had that same thread been made by a DO student, there would have been a lot of pessimism. That ignores that the OP of that thread was also trying to match these fields in nyc.

Yea idk maybe they were hyping up the program as being “mid tier” I do know it was the main IM prorgam of a big university in a decently big city, doesn’t mean it’s “mid tier” but I would say it’s lower mid tier though at the least.

 

[deleted898021]

Hey I know me and Anat seem like we’re ganging up on you, but keep in mind these questions were asked by premeds who still think they’ll easily match at the ceiling of DO potential. Have to keep it real for them.

I get it, USMD>DO but I am just saying what I’ve seen done from alumni and people I know, also location matters, mid tier in nyc is very different then mid tier in the do friendly mid west, premeds need to understand that going DO hinders them no doubt but if prestige was big deal for DO students then they wouldn’t be in DO school, but you can still match into virtually any specialty due to former aoa programs you will have to work very hard for it, but you will have to work very hard for it as an MD as well, it will be easier as an MD no doubt but one shouldn’t give up their dream just cause their in a DO school..

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yea I get the trend overall but it’s not impossible in DO friendly states per say..

It's pretty close. Again, just because it happens from time to time doesn't make it a valid option.

but keep in mind these questions were asked by premeds who still think they’ll easily match at the ceiling of DO potential. Have to keep it real for them.

This.
I know someone who matched plastics with a 230s Step and 1 pub. No connections. I still wouldn't tell someone that if they build the same app they have a chance for plastics.

I get it, USMD>DO but I am just saying what I’ve seen done from alumni and people I know, also location matters, mid tier in nyc is very different then mid tier in the do friendly mid west, premeds need to understand that going DO hinders them no doubt but if prestige was big deal for DO students then they wouldn’t be in DO school, but you can still match into virtually any specialty due to former aoa programs you will have to work very hard for it, but you will have to work very hard for it as an MD as well, it will be easier as an MD no doubt but one shouldn’t give up their dream just cause their in a DO school..

I agree, but OP has the choice.

 

[Neopolymath]

We are entering a steep decline in meritocracy in medical education. Underclassmen DO students and pre-meds should take note of this. "Working harder" sounds like some sort of conceptual golden arrow at that stage of the process to most of the naive students but it doesn't actually mean anything starting in a couple years. No amount of hard work can help you if you are not in an environment with the tools to accomplish what you need to do in order to match competitive fields. DO schools do not provide that environment at all. Your school's reputation and opportunities mean everything now. Take the extra year to fix your deficiencies as a student and do not go to DO school at all costs. I'm speaking as someone who in all likelihood this cycle will be classified as a "winner" in the DO gamble based on my experience like Hoov and Grey. I would gladly take the opportunity costs of another year or two and should have listened to my gut initially.

To OP: You done goofed and I'm quite sure you will figure that out very, very soon! If you think you are going to be a baller then you better get to work right now. Most people will say that you don't actually know if you have the potential to achieve your bold predictions of being a top student. Largely, they are right because most of these claims come from 22 year old dorks with no perspective and we get to see it play out here over the years when the honest ones come back to post. I had legit reasons to believe that I was going to excel in school before day 1 too so I'm not saying it's impossible but you better have some evidence for yourself so you don't put the cart before the horse worrying about surgical subs and all that while barely passing anatomy lol.

Do NOT wait to start research. Start getting on projects after your first block of exams goes well. If you wait, you will be in a terrible situation for your lofty goals. Productive research is far more important than pertinent research, or potentially no research, by falling into the trap of waiting until you figure out what you want to do. I don't know anyone that hasn't regret that decision. Doubly so for DO students.

I wish you the best, but I guess you are probably a troll. No one going for competitive specialties has a "genuine interest in osteopathy" aside from when they say it 3 times during their interview.

 

[Goro]

GS is moderately competitive. A DO without Step applying MD general surgery is pretty much SOL. Just because it might happen once in a blue moon doesn't mean people should consider it a valid option.

To clarify, what grey is talking about are historic ACGME Gen Surg residencies, former AOA ones.

Every incoming DO students needs to be fully aware that they are most likely going to end up in Primary Care or one of the DO-friendly friendly specialties.
This does not mean that one is forever barred from, say Ortho or Derm, but it's going to be harder, and some doors will be closed no matter what.

On the positive side, DO grads are kicking open more doors, but you still have to work for it, and so follow the path(s) that Grey has mentioned above.

 

[OneSummerPhoton]

Every time I come into these threads and read.... my soul dies a little.

 

[Neopolymath]

Every time I come into these threads and read.... my soul dies a little.

Just crack your soul back into life by exploiting the thin layer adherence principle of hvla. *vomits in mouth*

 

[slowthai]

The entertainment value of Neo's posts is just too high, man. Never fails to elicit my laugh reflex

 

[Neopolymath]

What about top/mid tier programs or desirable locations for less competitive or at least DO-friendly specialties?

Such as neuro, psych, EM, PM&R, gas, or even Rads.

Is matching into strong ACGME programs in these specialties reasonably achievable for a DO? Or is it as much of a long shot as getting into a plastics/IR/Derm/ENT type speciality ANYWHERE?

First thing is to note that every single specialty's top programs are competitive. That's a fact. I don't care if it's peds or whatever. Second, competitive aspects of fields like FM and psych include board scores but may emphasize something else so the top programs will always be tough. They just might not be tough specifically because you are a DO (matters less but not absent).

Desirable locations aren't tough for DOs because they are DOs necessarily. It's just the nature of lots of people wanting to go there.

Strong program is a loaded phrase. It has a somewhat consensus meaning but that varies for each field and the goals of the individual. That said, you can absolutely match those programs as a DO in the fields you listed. It's only going to get harder without boards to force program's hands so to speak because you can only go on so many auditions but you can do it.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

To clarify, what grey is talking about are historic ACGME Gen Surg residencies, former AOA ones.

Yes. I should add that there are former AOA programs that expect their applicants to have Step, or at least are strongly encouraging it. The match rate for COMLEX only applicants to GS this cycle was less than 50%.

What about top/mid tier programs or desirable locations for less competitive or at least DO-friendly specialties?

Top tier anything is going to require an elite app. Period. Some top programs in something like peds will not take a DO, I.e. CHOP.

Is matching into strong ACGME programs in these specialties reasonably achievable for a DO? Or is it as much of a long shot as getting into a plastics/IR/Derm/ENT type speciality ANYWHERE?

Yeah it's definitely reasonable to match a "strong program", but that will depend on what you mean by "strong program." If you are talking a top program or highly competitive program in a highly desirable location you will need an elite application. Not plastics long shot, but it's probably DO Ortho level difficult.

 

[Kardio]

What about top/mid tier programs or desirable locations for less competitive or at least DO-friendly specialties?

Such as neuro, psych, EM, PM&R, gas, or even Rads.

Is matching into strong ACGME programs in these specialties reasonably achievable for a DO? Or is it as much of a long shot as getting into a plastics/IR/Derm/ENT type speciality ANYWHERE?

Of the fields you’ve listed, the only one where I can easily find DOs training at ‘top’ programs is PM&R.

 

[zNoodlez]

Great, right when I just got my depression in check, now this thread......

 

[Kardio]

Great, right when I just got my depression in check, now this thread......

My man, everything’s going to be fine. We already knew that odds of IM @ MGH et. al. were near-zero. Nothing new has changed in the past couple months (except for a pretty stellar Charting Outcomes 2020).

 

[OneSummerPhoton]

Great, right when I just got my depression in check, now this thread......

-the feels-
MD or DO, there are never guarantees. Sure it may be "easier" for one over the other, but who knows exactly what the future holds. Just do your best wherever you are, the rest of the puzzles will fall into place.

 

[deleted898021]

Yes. I should add that there are former AOA programs that expect their applicants to have Step, or at least are strongly encouraging it. The match rate for COMLEX only applicants to GS this cycle was less than 50%.


Top tier anything is going to require an elite app. Period. Some top programs in something like peds will not take a DO, I.e. CHOP.


Yeah it's definitely reasonable to match a "strong program", but that will depend on what you mean by "strong program." If you are talking a top program or highly competitive program in a highly desirable location you will need an elite application. Not plastics long shot, but it's probably DO Ortho level difficult.

Idk about CHOP but kid from PCOM philly matched at children’s national in DC last year, believe it’s a top Peds program, also the first DO they have ever taken..

 

[Ho0v-man]

Great, right when I just got my depression in check, now this thread......

-the feels-
MD or DO, there are never guarantees. Sure it may be "easier" for one over the other, but who knows exactly what the future holds. Just do your best wherever you are, the rest of the puzzles will fall into place.

By strong program, I just mean great clinical training and mentors, with good lifestyle and in a good location. Ostensibly it would be nice to land at a university program, but I understand that doesn't mean everything.

Definitely not talking about prestigious or research powerhouse type of programs, or an "elite" coastal city like NYC or LA.

It's just that I've heard of a lot of malignant or miserable residencies and wanted to know if DOs can still have it good.

As in, can an average DO student at an average DO school still expect to land a good match in a decent mid-sized city for stuff like psych, neuro, EM, gas, rads, etc. Just trying to gauge how hard that would be.

Also just wanna say thanks to all of you DO big bros. Your guidance is truly indispensable.

Keep in mind guys, we all descended upon this thread when OP was talking about matching the upper echelons of specialties. As it stands now, outside of surgical fields and derm, a DO can match any field if they aren’t picky about geography. But you will have less opportunities than the exact same app with different initials after your name.

As far as “strong programs,” I get the feeling on sdn that everyone seems to think that only 20% of programs in any field will train you well and that’s just not the case. The majority of programs in any field will train you well. There’s malignancy at “top” programs too, guys.

As long as you don’t go to “Bubba Gump’s Shrimp Shack and Internal Medicine Emporium” for residency, you’ll be a good doctor if you want to be a good doctor.

 

[Neopolymath]

By strong program, I just mean great clinical training and mentors, with good lifestyle and in a good location. Ostensibly it would be nice to land at a university program, but I understand that doesn't mean everything.

Definitely not talking about prestigious or research powerhouse type of programs, or an "elite" coastal city like NYC or LA.

It's just that I've heard of a lot of malignant or miserable residencies and wanted to know if DOs can still have it good.

As in, can an average DO student at an average DO school still expect to land a good match in a decent mid-sized city for stuff like psych, neuro, EM, gas, rads, etc. Just trying to gauge how hard that would be.

Also just wanna say thanks to all of you DO big bros. Your guidance is truly indispensable.

Average student at average DO school isn't going to match into the scenario you described usually. You just asked if a mid rank DO who got a 228 on step 1 and no research is going to match a strong program in what I'm assuming you mean to be a non-rural location. That's generally not true now and it will be less so in the future.

 

[Neopolymath]

Keep in mind guys, we all descended upon this thread when OP was talking about matching the upper echelons of specialties. As it stands now, outside of surgical fields and derm, a DO can match any field if they aren’t picky about geography. But you will have less opportunities than the exact same app with different initials after your name.

As far as “strong programs,” I get the feeling on sdn that everyone seems to think that only 20% of programs in any field will train you well and that’s just not the case. The majority of programs in any field will train you well. There’s malignancy at “top” programs too, guys.

As long as you don’t go to “Bubba Gump’s Shrimp Shack and Internal Medicine Emporium” for residency, you’ll be a good doctor if you want to be a good doctor.

I heard they (tr)eat the whole shrimp there on rounds. Very holistic.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I heard they (tr)eat the whole shrimp there on rounds. Very holistic.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

By strong program, I just mean great clinical training and mentors, with good lifestyle and in a good location. Ostensibly it would be nice to land at a university program, but I understand that doesn't mean everything.

It's just that I've heard of a lot of malignant or miserable residencies and wanted to know if DOs can still have it good.

As in, can an average DO student at an average DO school still expect to land a good match in a decent mid-sized city for stuff like psych, neuro, EM, gas, rads, etc. Just trying to gauge how hard that would be.

It's definitely possible, but you'll probably need to be above average honestly. Like Neo mentioned above, if you truly are a dead average DO (mid rank, 230, no pubs, etc) then you probably aren't matching the scenario you're describing. It happens, but it's not typically the rule.

This is a good example of the DO/MD difference. An MD that is mid rank/230/no pubs/etc will match mid tier programs in most specialties. Hell, I've seen MD's with nothing but a shiny 220 on their app get interviews at university IM places that will only interview DO's that have 240+/research/Great LOR's

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

View attachment 315250

Can't ignore Shrimp Vascular. I hear they make bank. Lots of dorsal vein stenting in the prawn patient population.

 

[Osminog]

If you're a pre-med who's interested in "ortho, CT surgery, interventional pain management (anesthesiologist), trauma surg. & cardiology," the first thing you should do is ask yourself why. Why are you interested in this laundry list of disparate specialties, with different lifestyles, responsibilities, required skills, etc.? Be honest with yourself. Are you just interested in them because you heard that they're competitive and you want the prestige and impressive salary? Once you're doing rotations in medical school, you'll realize that strangers saying "wow!" at cocktail parties when you tell them what your job is, isn't going to be enough to keep you from burning out of a specialty that you hate.

Anyway, here is the definitive answer to the question of whether someone should go DO or MD: With enough time, many DO matriculants could improve their applications enough to become competitive for MD admissions—but there's an opportunity cost: every year you delay matriculating into medical school is a lost year of being a physician and making a physician salary. How much of an opportunity cost are you willing to pay in order to open the doors that are only/primarily open to MDs? How many years of working as a doctor and how much money are you willing to potentially lose in order to gain a bigger shot at becoming, say, a trauma surgeon? This is a value judgment, so nobody on SDN can tell you the correct answer. You will need to reflect on your own priorities and goals. Good luck.

 

[BTR41]

Honestly even going to a low tier (90th or below) MD school will rule out a lot of the super competitive specialities like IR/Vascular/ENT/Plastics. You would still need to be a stellar applicant. At all of the low tier medical schools I attended interviews for, I looked at their match lists and it was heavily primary care oriented and only a few outliers in competitive specialities. If you are seriously gunning for something competitive you probably need to get into a mid tier MD school. Which might be difficult considering you only had DO acceptances this time around.
But on the bright side you don’t need to do IR or be a plastic surgeon to be a good doctor.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Honestly even going to a low tier (90th or below) MD school will rule out a lot of the super competitive specialities like IR/Vascular/ENT/Plastics.

People like to pretend this is true but it isn't unless you are comparing whatever school you're talking about to the elite schools. Brand new MD school's pump out match lists that are better than every DO list combined (minus CNU).

 

[slowthai]

Honestly even going to a low tier (90th or below) MD school will rule out a lot of the super competitive specialities like IR/Vascular/ENT/Plastics. You would still need to be a stellar applicant. At all of the low tier medical schools I attended interviews for, I looked at their match lists and it was heavily primary care oriented and only a few outliers in competitive specialities. If you are seriously gunning for something competitive you probably need to get into a mid tier MD school. Which might be difficult considering you only had DO acceptances this time around.

This is just not true. People match into the ultra competitive fields from these new/low tier MD schools out in the middle of nowhere all the time. The difference is that they don't have to face an aggressive bias that handicaps them before they even start. There's no "low tier/new MD" filter on ERAS. There is a DO one.

 

[Frogger27]

This is just not true. People match into the ultra competitive fields from these new/low tier MD schools out in the middle of nowhere all the time. The difference is that they don't have to face an aggressive bias that handicaps them before they even start. There's no "low tier/new MD" filter on ERAS. There is a DO one.

Yeah the main disadvantage of a low tier MD would be if you did not have a home program for the competitive specialty... the lack of mentors and research opps can easily be overcome with a research year, which unfortunately wouldn’t change the letters behind a DOs name

 

[deleted898021]

Yeah the main disadvantage of a low tier MD would be if you did not have a home program for the competitive specialty... the lack of mentors and research opps can easily be overcome with a research year, which unfortunately wouldn’t change the letters behind a DOs name

Another potential disadvantage would be at the very low tier and new MD is that the MD will prbly keep them out of most of the former AOA programs in derm, ortho etc, if they don’t get any luck from the MD side of things.. a DO student would have that and can audition at those places. But again this is only in the scenario that low tier md gets no interviews from traditional md programs in the competitive specialties