Competitiveness at Georgetown Med?

[mdskiier]

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I just got into Georgetown Med off of the waitlist and I liked what I saw when I was there for the interview, but I am concerned that the Georgetown students are particularly competitive/cut throat (which is an environment that I do not want to be in). I know that every school will have a few "gunners," but I am just looking for anyones thoughts on the competitiveness at georgetown as compared to other similarly ranked Medical schools. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated (and if you could please say whether you actually attended or just interviewed, or work there, or have a friend who goes there, etc. that would be great too). Thanks so much.

 

[Happy.9666]

I'm in a summer med program at Georgetown taking Histology. During the normal school year, grades in this class are determined by how the class does on the exams, so I'd say that for this class, it's probably pretty competitive. I'm just hoping this isn't the case for ALL the classes!

 

[BAM!]

I got that same vibe when I interviewed there. Then after talking with lots of students who currently go there, they assured me it wasnt as bad as i thought. 🙂

 

[njbmd]

I just got into Georgetown Med off of the waitlist and I liked what I saw when I was there for the interview, but I am concerned that the Georgetown students are particularly competitive/cut throat (which is an environment that I do not want to be in). I know that every school will have a few "gunners," but I am just looking for anyones thoughts on the competitiveness at georgetown as compared to other similarly ranked Medical schools. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated (and if you could please say whether you actually attended or just interviewed, or work there, or have a friend who goes there, etc. that would be great too). Thanks so much.

Hi there,
The competitive atmosphere at GT is fairly meaningless because you are actually only in competition with yourself. The ranking is pretty meaningless because it is your performance at GT that will determine your fate. GT could be ranked the #1 medical school in the country but if you do not do well, that ranking is not going to get you very far. No one is going to put a limit on your studying or keep something unavailable to you. What anyone else does in your medical school has very little to do with you. Worry less about atmosphere and more about how YOU are going to master the curriculum. The best way to deal with competition is to do well.

njbmd 🙂

 

[BAM!]

Hi there,
The competitive atmosphere at GT is fairly meaningless because you are actually only in competition with yourself. The ranking is pretty meaningless because it is your performance at GT that will determine your fate. GT could be ranked the #1 medical school in the country but if you do not do well, that ranking is not going to get you very far. No one is going to put a limit on your studying or keep something unavailable to you. What anyone else does in your medical school has very little to do with you. Worry less about atmosphere and more about how YOU are going to master the curriculum. The best way to deal with competition is to do well.

njbmd 🙂

That's not true at all! If the top 10% of the class gets HONORS and the rest get PASSES, then you're in direct competition with your classmates. If the school has competitive students, then it'll be harder to acheive HONORS than at a less competitive school.

However, I'm not sure he/she worries about other smart students at the school. Every school will have that. The OP doesn't want to deal with students backstabbing each other to get better marks. It happens. It's very real. I've seen it in undergrad.

On the bright side, from what I've heard talking with students at GT, it's not as bad as people make it out to be on SDN.

 

[1Path]

That's not true at all! If the top 10% of the class gets HONORS and the rest get PASSES, then you're in direct competition with your classmates. If the school has competitive students, then it'll be harder to acheive HONORS than at a less competitive school.

The professor on my summer course specifically said that we were lucky we don't have the "top 10% grading scale" used normally. He also commented that it makes things less competitive, so I have to agree with you here. And students I've met from other med schools agree that the top 10% grading scale sux and doesn't really promote students working together However, I can also see some aspects of the "you're only competitng with yourself" idea since if you bust your tail studying, you'll be rewarded with a good grade in the end anyway!

 

[njbmd]

That's not true at all! If the top 10% of the class gets HONORS and the rest get PASSES, then you're in direct competition with your classmates. If the school has competitive students, then it'll be harder to acheive HONORS than at a less competitive school.

However, I'm not sure he/she worries about other smart students at the school. Every school will have that. The OP doesn't want to deal with students backstabbing each other to get better marks. It happens. It's very real. I've seen it in undergrad.

On the bright side, from what I've heard talking with students at GT, it's not as bad as people make it out to be on SDN.

Hi there,
Your competition in medical school and other professional schools for that matter, is yourself. If the grades are high and you are not, there is something very, very wrong with your study skills and you have to ratchet it up a notch or two. Medical school is very different from undergraduate school. As a former and now current medical school professor, I promise you that we do not limit the number of "HONORS" grades that are handed out.

njbmd 🙂

 

[Bfriccia1]

Hi there,
Your competition in medical school and other professional schools for that matter, is yourself. If the grades are high and you are not, there is something very, very wrong with your study skills and you have to ratchet it up a notch or two. Medical school is very different from undergraduate school. As a former and now current medical school professor, I promise you that we do not limit the number of "HONORS" grades that are handed out.

njbmd 🙂

At my school they do limit the number of people that get honors and I feel that it does increase competition amongst classmates. Nobody is going to sabotage your studying or anything like that, but people definitely feel the pressure. When the average grade on a test is a 90, people complain, whereas if a set percentage cutoff was established, this would be good for everyone. I'm not sure what georgetown does but it will make some difference in the atmosphere.

 

[peaches09]

I just got into Georgetown Med off of the waitlist and I liked what I saw when I was there for the interview, but I am concerned that the Georgetown students are particularly competitive/cut throat (which is an environment that I do not want to be in). I know that every school will have a few "gunners," but I am just looking for anyones thoughts on the competitiveness at georgetown as compared to other similarly ranked Medical schools. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated (and if you could please say whether you actually attended or just interviewed, or work there, or have a friend who goes there, etc. that would be great too). Thanks so much.

I'm a second year at Georgetown. IMO, it's not bad. Like njbmd said, you're really competing against yourself. If you go through med school thinking you have to compete with your classmates, it'll drain you. The less that I worried how others were studying, etc., the more I was able to concentrate on what I was doing and thus felt less pressure.

What have you heard about the competitiveness at Georgetown? Wouldn't it be the same everywhere else? Everyone in med school wants to do well (whether they'll admit it or not) so I don't see why there would be any difference.

 

[BAM!]

Hi there,
Your competition in medical school and other professional schools for that matter, is yourself. If the grades are high and you are not, there is something very, very wrong with your study skills and you have to ratchet it up a notch or two. Medical school is very different from undergraduate school. As a former and now current medical school professor, I promise you that we do not limit the number of "HONORS" grades that are handed out.

njbmd 🙂

Sure, if everyone aces every test, everyone gets HONORS. And there's probably some flexibility. Maybe it's more like 5-20% get HONORS. However, if it would be harder to be in the top of the class if the rest of your classmates were very competitive. Plain and simple.

Your view is a very nice mentality that promotes good study habits. No offense, but it seems like it's written by either a person who always made good marks or someone who went through school a long time ago and is far removed from it.

 

[Callogician]

Ah...praise the mighty FSM for the great equalizer: the USMLE.

 

[Whitehaven]

I just finished 2nd year at Georgetown and have not found it "cut-throat" competitive at all. People are more than happy to share study guides they have spent hours compiling, for example. On the other hand the students are still a competitive bunch overall, but more in the sense of pushing themselves to do as well as possible and stressing out a lot.

 

[medguy47]

I just finished 2nd year at Georgetown and have not found it "cut-throat" competitive at all. People are more than happy to share study guides they have spent hours compiling, for example. On the other hand the students are still a competitive bunch overall, but more in the sense of pushing themselves to do as well as possible and stressing out a lot.

I disagree, i found gtown extremely competetive. not because of the students, but because of the curriculum. Honors, high pass, pass, low pass. Too many low passes leads to academic probation, so it pushes everyone. Plus 9-5pm in class lectures and groups 5 days a week, many of which u can't skip out on, and very high yield saturday review sessions leave less time for independent study. Thus expect extremely long preclinical hours.

That said, the difficulty builds a tremendous sense of comradery. There really aren't a noticeable group of gunners as much because there is a sense taht everyone is in the same boat

 

[kohalagirl79]

I disagree, i found gtown extremely competetive. not because of the students, but because of the curriculum.

Just out of curiosity, how long ago did you attend GT? Or are you still a student?

 

[ukkat1]

I also just finished my second year at georgetown and have not found it to be very competitive. I actually chose to attend here over other schools where I heard the backstabbing attitude was prevalent. I have found that georgetown students all strive to do well (as do students at all medical schools of course), but are always supportive of each other. Before all exams students always send out their study sheets to the entire class and are always willing to help a student out if he/she is struggling with a particular topic. Honors and high pass are based on percentages, but I have found that students are more competitive with themselves than with each other. It is much more productive to strive to perform to the best of your own ability than to worry about competing with others. And besides, if I know I'm doing the best that i can do, regardless of what that grade turns out to be, I would like to see my classmates do their best as well. Some students will put in much more time than others, and those are the students who deserve to be recognized with honors.

In response to the above poster, the days at the beginning of first year are long, with anatomy labs in the afternoons and some (optional) saturday review sessions. However, the rest of first year and second year have much shorter class days. Often we were out of lecture by 12 or 2, giving you much more time to study.

 

[Hoya11]

Hi,

New Ms3 at gtown.

Years 1/2 Definitely more competitive than average. I found myself hoping some people dont do well so the curve works out in my favor.

IMO this is why the environment is like this at GTown:

1. Out-dated, stubborn mentality of the faculty/administrators. (iron your coat or be yelled at, literaly told to shut our mouths and not complain)

2. Sweeping Low passes for the bottom 10% regardless of exam score (eg getting a 76 on an exam = lp since someone HAS to get it always, even in 1 month courses like nutrition)

3. The Physio program: it allows premeds to infect Ms1/2s with stress. In many ways you still feel like you are proving yourself to someone, and worry about curves and scores etc...

That being said, If you stay near the mean for most exams, by the last exam you have to do TERRIBLE (50) to get a LP. This is for the serious courses with 3-4 tests. For courses with one test it is totally random. I have also found the faculty to be totally unapproachable unless you are kissing their arse or agreeing with them, which oh so many annoying students love to do here.

One advantage to gtown is that they leave you totally alone to study on your own if you wish, very very little required time at school for year 1/2 aside from anatomy lab at the beginning. This is good cuz it lets you make your own schedule, but has lectures if you need it fed to you.

 

[thesauce]

At my school, HONORS = Average +1.1*standard deviation. Simply put, they've limited the # of honors. About 10% will get it. So you have to be cutthroat competitive.

 

[1Path]

2. Sweeping Low passes for the bottom 10% regardless of exam score (eg getting a 76 on an exam = lp since someone HAS to get it always, even in 1 month courses like nutrition).

To support what you've pointed out, I was recently told by an administrator at the school that getting an 83 can be a low pass for certain course(s) at G'town because of the 10% grading rule and the idea of being in a situation like THIS is sickening!

3. The Physio program: it allows premeds to infect Ms1/2s with stress. In many ways you still feel like you are proving yourself to someone, and worry about curves and scores etc... .

I definitely see what you mean by this too!

Grades above 80% should be pass no matter what the dam curve is! 😡

 

[peaches09]

To support what you've pointed out, I was recently told by an administrator at the school that getting an 83 can be a low pass for certain course(s) at G'town because of the 10% grading rule and the idea of being in a situation like THIS is sickening!


I definitely see what you mean by this too!

Grades above 80% should be pass no matter what the dam curve is! 😡

I have never encountered anyone low passing with an 80% or higher. Low passes are usually in the range of 50's-60's. This, IMO, is generous, considering almost half of the exam was incorrectly answered and it's still considered "passing".

 

[Straight Child]

I just saw this thread, and feel the need to address Georgetown's reputation as being competitive. First let me say that I'm a Georgetown grad and have since moved on elsewhere to do residency.

Yes, the grades are straight up curves. So yes, some people will get LP's, no matter the average grade, and some people will get Honors not matter the average. However, the LP's are internal, and they do not show up on transcripts mailed out to other institutions. They only serve to let you know exactly where you stand in the class. And if you are consistently getting grades in the bottom 5% of the class, I think we would all agree there is something off about your study habits or time management.

Other schools tell you that they are strictly pass-fail, and that they don't have a ranking of the students. Surprise! The last paragraph in your dean's letter will have something to the effect of we "highly recommend" or "strongly recommend" or "recommend" or something like that. And attached to the letter will be a breakdown of how many students in your class got each of the above comments. So if you are fazed by the thought of being compared to your peers in medical school, get used to it, it happens everywhere. It's just that some schools aren't as blunt about it.

Also, residency application is one huge ranking of ALL medical students. It starts with the USMLE, and let me assure you, I have never seen medical students from other schools offer tips and pointers to other schools.

No one at Georgetown will steal books or back stab. As someone else above said, there are tons of helpful people, and tons of study groups. But due to the strict curve, there's always pressure to perform to the level of your peers. This could be a good thing, as it drives and motivates. I see it a little bit like capitalsim versus socialsim. If there is no incentive to do well (i.e. everyone gets passes), then why put in the extra hours in anatomy lab, or staying behind to look at pathology slides? Everyone gets passes, right?

As you can tell, I think competition is unavoidable ---> High school to college (SAT), college to med school (MCAT), med school to residency (USMLE), residency to fellowship (in training exams), fellowship to job...etc. Anytime you want something somebody else wants, it's a competition. If you didn't want this competitiveness, then why not apply for something that nobody else wants?

This system is not for everyone. I worked way harder than my college friends who went to different schools all across the country. However, I believe the track record of residency placement speaks for itself. My residency program director told me that he always takes Georgetown students because of our reputation as hard working and dependable. At the end of the day, isn't that what every attending wants? Someone who they can trust their patients with?

I think Georgetown is a great education for someone who can stand the heat for 4 years --- work your butt off, suffer some abuse (but get tougher from it), find out you CAN take a shelf exam after being awake for 40 hours, and learn how to take care of patients. The reward is learning your medicine well and earning a good reputation that will precede you.

 

[DrQuinn]

I am an attending at the new Georgetown/Washington Hospital Center EM residency, and I can tell you that I think the Georgetown students I've worked with are stronger than many of the other med students I've worked with over time (during residency). The GT students seem to be a bit more well rounded, can form a decent differential early on, are gung-ho in regards to procedures, and, well, just seem to be a bit better from the other students I've worked with. Although, it is July and the students this month are the ones that want to go into EM and are probably a bit more energetic, but it is an observation that I've made...

Q

 

[tennisnr]

When I went to interview at Georgetown there was not only a "Competitive vibe" but the MS1's were all ticked off because of the first test they had taken. The mean turned out to be an 80 or something so many students who scored a 78 or so ended up with a Low Pass. When talking to these first years, they told me that they definetely felt that their friends at other schools did not have such a competitive atmosphere where no matter what, a certain percentage of the class gets Honor, HP, P, and LP.

I think the Georgetown system like Emory's is outdated but I think Emory is fixing this system. Georgetown def seems behind when it comes to the fact that no matter what, there will be a certain percentage of the class getting a LP, and I think this will inevitably contrbute to competitiveness. Perhaps not stealing books etc but a system like this def contributes to competitiveness in other forms (ie hyper studying to memorize every minute detail b/c you know other ppl will do the same so they don't fall into the LP category)

And it is not true that all P/F systems rank students internally. My school for instance has no internal rankings what so ever, and if everyone does above a certain percentage on the test they get a Pass. In such a system you are ONLY competing with the test and not your peers which I feel like is the ideal system at this stage in our lives.

 

[tacrum43]

When I went to interview at Georgetown there was not only a "Competitive vibe" but the MS1's were all ticked off because of the first test they had taken. The mean turned out to be an 80 or something so many students who scored a 78 or so ended up with a Low Pass. When talking to these first years, they told me that they definetely felt that their friends at other schools did not have such a competitive atmosphere where no matter what, a certain percentage of the class gets Honor, HP, P, and LP.

Well, it's not exactly true that a set percentage get a LP/fail. It's based on standard deviations. The pass/fail cutoff is usually a little more than 2 SDs below the average. Usually the bottom 10% or so get a LP/fail, but it is NOT the case that 10% MUST get a LP/fail. And a 78 certainly wouldn't be a LP if the average is 80. Maybe 70.

 

[Hoya11]

Well, it's not exactly true that a set percentage get a LP/fail. It's based on standard deviations. The pass/fail cutoff is usually a little more than 2 SDs below the average. Usually the bottom 10% or so get a LP/fail, but it is NOT the case that 10% MUST get a LP/fail. And a 78 certainly wouldn't be a LP if the average is 80. Maybe 70.

I dont know where your info is coming from, but there IS a bottom 10% LP.
While it may not be advertised to incoming students this way, it is true.
They will set a number after the exam that, below that number, is an LP. ANd guess what number they choose? The number that gives about 10% of students getting LP, sometimes 12%, sometimes 8%, but around there.

You are right that the pass/fail cutoff is less than 2SD for the serious classes. But, also keep in mind that enough LPs will have the same academic consequence as failing.

 

[gostudy]

A couple of things to note here.

I think the Georgetown system like Emory's is outdated but I think Emory is fixing this system.

Although Emory operates on an A/B/C scale, there are no curves on tests. This is to say if a 90% = A and everyone in the class gets 90%, then everyone gets an A. This is much different than Georgetown's system where there is forced distrubition.

And if you are consistently getting grades in the bottom 5% of the class, I think we would all agree there is something off about your study habits or time management.

Well doesn't someone always have to be in the bottom 5%? In systems as these it doesn't matter how well you do in general, it matters how well you do relative to your class. In my opinion this sucks.

 

[1Path]

This is much different than Georgetown's system where there is forced distrubition..

Not sure WHY this is so hard for folks to believe but when an medical school admisistrator gives you info, I tend to believe it especially when it's back up by a med school professor!

Well doesn't someone always have to be in the bottom 5%? In systems as these it doesn't matter how well you do in general, it matters how well you do relative to your class. In my opinion this sucks.

Word!
What I'm trying to figure out is why there has to be a "bottom" 5% in the first place. I mean, med students are some of the smartest, most capable poeple in the owrld, so why the need (beyond "rankings") to say that we "only" give out for example, 5 A's in an Anatomy class? 😕

 

[daeojkim]

The competitiveness will be based on your goals and expectations. If you are shooting for honors then it will be competitive because you will have that mind set and competing with rest of the gunners. But if you are satisfied with a pass or high pass, then you will not feel much pressure.

Just like any medical school there will be a group of gunners, semi-gunners, and happy-goers. So if you don't do well with competition just make sure to mix with the right crowd.

Some may complain about the GUSOM grading system, but I see it as a way to make you push yourself a little harder. Sure there may be benefits in P/F system but my guess is that it may cause too many students to just study enough to pass and be satisfied with it.

In reality the range of students that get honors is anywhere between top 10% to 15%, especially in big classes such as physiology or neuroscience. The cut off for these classes were below 90 for honors.

Take for instance George Washington U, which has P/F and you get honors if you get over 90% regardless of your rank. I think this harder than getting honors at GUSOM where honor cut off are often 90 or below for major classes.

It is hard in practice but the happiest people are those who stop comparing themselves with others. It is also time to stop studying for grades like pre-meds do as undergrad, but making the learning the priority. It is a very difficult transition to make as most premeds have been so focuses on grades rather than actual learning. In fact some people never get out of that habit. Ever heard of a doc who was depressed and it was later found that his depression was caused because he was not receiving grades after med school? His entire success and happiness was measured by his report card. How sad is that?