Competitiveness for fellowship

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Currently CA-1, scored 31 on recent ITE.

Considering pain vs. peds vs. PP

Thoughts on competitiveness? I'm at a mid-tier program. Thanks

That's a good ITE score for a CA-1. But, seriously, that's all you're giving us and expecting an answer?

I'm currently applying to fellowship, and I honestly don't know what they are looking for. Probably just like anything, well-rounded, no major holes in the CV. No major red flags.
 
That's a good ITE score for a CA-1. But, seriously, that's all you're giving us and expecting an answer?

I'm currently applying to fellowship, and I honestly don't know what they are looking for. Probably just like anything, well-rounded, no major holes in the CV. No major red flags.

What more info would you need for better assessment?

All I've heard from attendings left and right is this: "You've guaranteed that everyone will leave you alone, keep it up!"

I could provide more info by PM. Thanks
 
What more info would you need for better assessment?

All I've heard from attendings left and right is this: "You've guaranteed that everyone will leave you alone, keep it up!"

I could provide more info by PM. Thanks

Your application will include ite's, usmle's, letters of rec, statement of interest, maybe med school transcript. It's not a top ite gets the spot process though it surely helps.
 
To be competitive, you need good test scores (consistent with being able to pass the boards). You not passing the boards, and maybe not getting a job, will become our problem. It's a problem fellowships don't want.
You also need to have extra elective time in the specialty (showing significant interest).
Research is a big plus. Maybe not a requirement, but remember that most Fellowship programs are at places that place significant value on academic productivity and have some research requirement. A history of some academic interest will make you a better fit.
And most importantly, you need better than average letters of recommendation ideally from people in that specialty.
That will get you an interview.👍
Then you need to sell yourself hard and seem like a good fit for the department. If you're arrogant, odd, can't articulate you interest and career goals, etc. you're not getting a spot. You have to kill the interview.
I get the sense that things are getting more competitive across the board, if you want a competitive fellowship (desirable area, highly regarded program, etc) you need to plan ahead and bring your A game.
I'm not a big believer that fellowships are a requirement for the future, but if your skill set includes things that most CRNAs realistically won't want to/be able to do alone, your job is more secure. It's also certainly possible that in the future a gov't system might pay some more for additional required time in training. Who knows? Having said that, I don't believe that's it's worth the loss of a year of income for a fellowship unless you're passionate about that subspecialty.
Good luck.
 
Thanks.

My assumption is ITE/LORs/Personal statement mean much more than med school numbers, right? I assume licensing exams are required just to see if you passed all 4 exams (Steps I-III, clinical skills), right?

PMs being sent. Thanks again
 
To be competitive, you need good test scores (consistent with being able to pass the boards). You not passing the boards, and maybe not getting a job, will become our problem. It's a problem fellowships don't want.
You also need to have extra elective time in the specialty (showing significant interest).
Research is a big plus. Maybe not a requirement, but remember that most Fellowship programs are at places that place significant value on academic productivity and have some research requirement. A history of some academic interest will make you a better fit.
And most importantly, you need better than average letters of recommendation ideally from people in that specialty.
That will get you an interview.👍
Then you need to sell yourself hard and seem like a good fit for the department. If you're arrogant, odd, can't articulate you interest and career goals, etc. you're not getting a spot. You have to kill the interview.
I get the sense that things are getting more competitive across the board, if you want a competitive fellowship (desirable area, highly regarded program, etc) you need to plan ahead and bring your A game.
I'm not a big believer that fellowships are a requirement for the future, but if your skill set includes things that most CRNAs realistically won't want to/be able to do alone, your job is more secure. It's also certainly possible that in the future a gov't system might pay some more for additional required time in training. Who knows? Having said that, I don't believe that's it's worth the loss of a year of income for a fellowship unless you're passionate about that subspecialty.
Good luck.

Didn't see this post in time.

Thanks - so it appears to be another "game" so-to-speak as with med school and residency apps/interviews.

I have a couple "challenging cases" reports that I am submitting to ASA. Not "research" per say but it is something. I typically do well with interviews. Reputation of being a hard worker who is constantly refining approaches in technical skills, clinical judgement; fund of knowledge never questioned by any staff.

I had always been a "slow" academic starter (middle of the road GPA and licensing exam scores with sharp upwards trend in everything as I progressed through med school), but I worked hard to try to not fall into the same trap with the CA-1 ITE. Goal is to keep it up.

At this time, I'm sort of at a cross-roads. I have 2 types of attendings at my program: the fellowship pushers and those who say "don't do it you don't need it" - the folks who went academia later in their careers after spending a lot of time in PP are the latter

Everyone keeps saying pain is gonna self-destruct. Everyone says Peds is the one worth targeting. CV is good for echo board certification.

It's just so confusing, and time is sort of flying.
 
Didn't see this post in time.

Thanks - so it appears to be another "game" so-to-speak as with med school and residency apps/interviews.

I have a couple "challenging cases" reports that I am submitting to ASA. Not "research" per say but it is something. I typically do well with interviews. Reputation of being a hard worker who is constantly refining approaches in technical skills, clinical judgement; fund of knowledge never questioned by any staff.

I had always been a "slow" academic starter (middle of the road GPA and licensing exam scores with sharp upwards trend in everything as I progressed through med school), but I worked hard to try to not fall into the same trap with the CA-1 ITE. Goal is to keep it up.

At this time, I'm sort of at a cross-roads. I have 2 types of attendings at my program: the fellowship pushers and those who say "don't do it you don't need it" - the folks who went academia later in their careers after spending a lot of time in PP are the latter

Everyone keeps saying pain is gonna self-destruct. Everyone says Peds is the one worth targeting. CV is good for echo board certification.

It's just so confusing, and time is sort of flying.

Unlike the others on SDN I firmly believe a Fellowship is important for your future job prospects (both private practice and academia).

Do you need a Fellowship to land that AMC gig paying $325K? No. But, why limit yourself to a suboptimal gig working long hours for $325? That one extra year gives you more options and job insurance down the road.

If I was a CA-3 graduating this summer I would think really hard about doing a fellowship and then think about it again. The job market going forward looks bleak and I would strongly recommend a fellowship. Those who have followed my advice on SDN over the years are likely to agree with me.

If you can't or won't do a fellowship then study hard and pass the Advanced TEE exam. The Advanced Exam will give you street cred in many of the larger groups doing Cardiac anesthesia.

Why earn $325K when $400K is out there for fellowship graduates?
 
Unlike the others on SDN I firmly believe a Fellowship is important for your future job prospects (both private practice and academia).

Do you need a Fellowship to land that AMC gig paying $325K? No. But, why limit yourself to a suboptimal gig working long hours for $325? That one extra year gives you more options and job insurance down the road.

If I was a CA-3 graduating this summer I would think really hard about doing a fellowship and then think about it again. The job market going forward looks bleak and I would strongly recommend a fellowship. Those who have followed my advice on SDN over the years are likely to agree with me.

If you can't or won't do a fellowship then study hard and pass the Advanced TEE exam. The Advanced Exam will give you street cred in many of the larger groups doing Cardiac anesthesia.

Why earn $325K when $400K is out there for fellowship graduates?

Thanks for your reply, Blade. A prolific poster here and I'm glad to have received your input.

Would a general anesthesiologist HAVE to take an AMC job paying 325K? Probably not. Sure, it's getting more common as PP groups sell out, but as you have mentioned in other threads, there are still good gigs out there but you have to be creative and look broadly. I do understand your point; however, in that a fellowship would make the job search EASIER for similar or possibly better pay and better job security.

I just don't have a clue what I want to do in terms of a subspecialty. Sure, I've got it down to 2, but I can't decide. I know I have a little time but it's going by quickly it feels.

This is the first I've read/heard about the advanced TEE exam. Any book can do or is there some resource that is "the" resource for this particular exam? Cost of exam? When to take? Worth taking if you have no plans on being the hearts guy?

Thanks
 
Last edited:
This is the first I've read/heard about the advanced TEE exam. Any book can do or is there some resource that is "the" resource for this particular exam? Cost of exam? When to take? Worth taking if you have no plans on being the hearts guy?

Thanks

Anyone graduating after 2009 cannot take the advance exam without a cardiac or icu fellowship as far as I know.
 
Thanks for your reply, Blade. A prolific poster here and I'm glad to have received your input.

Would a general anesthesiologist HAVE to take an AMC job paying 325K? Probably not. Sure, it's getting more common as PP groups sell out, but as you have mentioned in other threads, there are still good gigs out there but you have to be creative and look broadly. I do understand your point; however, in that a fellowship would make the job search EASIER for similar or possibly better pay and better job security.

I just don't have a clue what I want to do in terms of a subspecialty. Sure, I've got it down to 2, but I can't decide. I know I have a little time but it's going by quickly it feels.

This is the first I've read/heard about the advanced TEE exam. Any book can do or is there some resource that is "the" resource for this particular exam? Cost of exam? When to take? Worth taking if you have no plans on being the hearts guy?

Thanks

I understand the urge to get out and earn money. I wasn't just broke after my CA-3 year but actually negative $5,000. I really do understand. Still, that CA-4 year would help secure a better job or the same job in a better location. Many CA-3's do get it and that's why 40% are doing fellowships. I happen to agree with those 40%.

Pain is a great choice if you like the field. Ditto for Peds and Cardiac. ICU/CCM is more academic based but good jobs are out there (ask Seinfeld on SDN). Stay focused and remember the big picture.
 
I understand the urge to get out and earn money. I wasn't just broke after my CA-3 year but actually negative $5,000. I really do understand. Still, that CA-4 year would help secure a better job or the same job in a better location. Many CA-3's do get it and that's why 40% are doing fellowships. I happen to agree with those 40%.

Pain is a great choice if you like the field. Ditto for Peds and Cardiac. ICU/CCM is more academic based but good jobs are out there (ask Seinfeld on SDN). Stay focused and remember the big picture.

Fortunately for me, I have pain, peds, and cardiac months as a CA-2 all within the first 6 months, so I'll get a second look into peds, and exposure to both pain and cardiac before December. Thus, it should help in the decision-making.

I may lean more towards pain over peds, as the office/procedural lifestyle seems to be more appealing when I think long-term. Goal is to hit a 40 on the ITE as a CA-2. If I come close I'll be happy as well.
 
Anyone graduating after 2009 cannot take the advance exam without a cardiac or icu fellowship as far as I know.


I was considering cc vs cardiac , then did a bunch Of icu this year and really liked it. I really like the idea of tee certified and didnt realize that cc trained makes you eligible. That's awesome to hear. Do you know if cc people out there can be certified in bronchoscopy?

I feel like the Ability to perform tee and bronch would be great additional skills to take care of sick patients in the icu.

Probably good for revenue as well...anybody know approx reimbursement rate for performing but not reading the tee is? How about bronch for something simple like removing plugs?
 
I don't think it pays that well whether you drop the probe or read the exam. But I think the money is in reading the TEE. Others with more experience can comment in that. I'm taking the adult advanced perioperative exam this July. It was 995 to register, closes in February before the exam. It's true I will be a testamur, but I hope to get some street cred like blade said.
 
I don't think it pays that well whether you drop the probe or read the exam. But I think the money is in reading the TEE. Others with more experience can comment in that. I'm taking the adult advanced perioperative exam this July. It was 995 to register, closes in February before the exam. It's true I will be a testamur, but I hope to get some street cred like blade said.

No money in TEE from Medicare. $60-$70 for placing the probe and doing a full exam. Good luck with that.
 
Top