Concerns about how schools view undergrad grades

[Trematode]

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When I had my first rabbit as a teenager I had her live outside and she got fly strike and died. While I "learned" from the situation, it was a mistake and my rabbit suffered because of it. You can't put an optimist jingle on everything. Trying to learn from mistakes after they happen is not the same as saying you should never regret something.

Putting an optimist spin on that:
You may have saved 2... 3... 2700 rabbits from suffering the same fate or from other less-serious ailments that come from being housed outside. Your first rabbit could of died of heatstroke. You could have never realized the true cause (assumed it was "old age" or something you could not have helped), and stuck another rabbit outside to suffer a similar fate.

Sorry. I could not help myself.

 

[krue]

mistakes are a negative connotation to what an optimist calls a learning opportunity.

When I had my first rabbit as a teenager I had her live outside and she got fly strike and died. While I "learned" from the situation, it was a mistake and my rabbit suffered because of it. You can't put an optimist jingle on everything.

Wow, you sure taught her a lesson! Positive thinking is for jerks. 👍

 

[LetItSnow]

let me clarify. mistakes are a negative connotation to what an optimist calls a learning opportunity.

Some day when I kill some animal through a mistake (god forbid, but....), I can't wait to call the client and tell her "Ma'am, I'm very sorry to have to tell you this, but I had
a learning opportunity today and killed your animal."

Why so fearful to call a mistake a mistake? Doesn't mean you can't learn from it, but there's no reason to ignore the reality. Too much "positivity" is just as damaging as too much negativity.

 

[RagtimeWillie]

Some day when I kill some animal through a mistake (god forbid, but....), I can't wait to call the client and tell her "Ma'am, I'm very sorry to have to tell you this, but I had
a learning opportunity today and killed your animal."

Why so fearful to call a mistake a mistake? Doesn't mean you can't learn from it, but there's no reason to ignore the reality. Too much "positivity" is just as damaging as too much negativity.

As tragic as those mistakes are, there is always something good to gain out of it. What that is, only you can figure out when the time comes. We continually search for problems in our lives, focus on them, and use those as reasons why we are who we are. The alternative, however, is to search within ourselves and find ways to grow positively from a negative experience (ie: mistake). Please don't interpret my definition of a mistake out of context. Furthermore, this is purely existential thought, and therefore no right or wrong answer exists...unless anyone wants to turn this thread into another Michael Vick Owns a Dog outcome, I'd rather not get into it. Peace/love/harmony as always folks of America!😍

 

[LetItSnow]

As tragic as those mistakes are, there is always something good to gain out of it. What that is, only you can figure out when the time comes. We continually search for problems in our lives, focus on them, and use those as reasons why we are who we are. The alternative, however, is to search within ourselves and find ways to grow positively from a negative experience (ie: mistake). Please don't interpret my definition of a mistake out of context. Furthermore, this is purely existential thought, and therefore no right or wrong answer exists...unless anyone wants to turn this thread into another Michael Vick Owns a Dog outcome, I'd rather not get into it. Peace/love/harmony as always folks of America!😍

You previously said: "There are no mistakes and hopefully no regrets." I'm not sure it's even possible to take that out of context because you didn't put any bounds on it. So I think my point is justified.

There certainly are mistakes. And there certainly are things I've done that I regret. And if I didn't regret them, I'd consider myself broken. Regret is just another way of learning from something. I'd even argue that if you're unwilling to step up and say "I failed" you aren't really learning from the failure.

Absolute positivism is, I think, merely an unhealthy fear of failure, or an inability to confidently manage failure.

 

[abc22]

I don't think RagtimeWillie's comment was meant to spark such a dissection/debate. She/he was merely trying to offer some words of encouragement to everyone in a sucky situation, which I really appreciate. If you take the comment literally and rip it apart, then of course you can point out that there ARE such things as mistakes. I'm sure what she/he meant was that while there ARE mistakes/regrets, you shouldn't think of them as such, since the word 'mistake' has such a negative connotation.

I hope that I don't get ripped apart for this

 

[RagtimeWillie]

I'd even argue that if you're unwilling to step up and say "I failed" you aren't really learning from the failure.

Absolute positivism is, I think, merely an unhealthy fear of failure, or an inability to confidently manage failure.

Nice twist with the failure bit! Hmm but are you also insinuating something here? Hey, that's cool. I'm picking up what you're putting down. As a non-traditional vet-school applicant with a life-long learning disability, I'd have to say the way I've learned most of my life is by failure. I can't wait to fail more in vet school, and oh my, even as a vet. If there is any problem I may have, that is an inability to confidently manage my checkbook!! I aim to live my life not as a "absolute positivist", as you have blatantly crowned me, but I think an optimist is more becoming. Then again, I really don't see the point of continuing this discourse any further.

Good night and good luck!😴

 

[LetItSnow]

Nice twist with the failure bit! Hmm but are you also insinuating something here? Hey, that's cool. I'm picking up what you're putting down. As a non-traditional vet-school applicant with a life-long learning disability, I'd have to say the way I've learned most of my life is by failure. I can't wait to fail more in vet school, and oh my, even as a vet. If there is any problem I may have, that is an inability to confidently manage my checkbook!! I aim to live my life not as a "absolute positivist", as you have blatantly crowned me, but I think an optimist is more becoming. Then again, I really don't see the point of continuing this discourse any further.

Good night and good luck!😴

Awwww... geee.... peace/love/harmony, bro! Or was that all bs, too? 🙄

Sounds to me like even you aren't buying what you're selling. Your positivism lasted for ... what ... 3 posts?

 

[RagtimeWillie]

Awwww... geee.... peace/love/harmony, bro! Or was that all bs, too? 🙄

Sounds to me like even you aren't buying what you're selling. Your positivism lasted for ... what ... 3 posts?

Dealing with you, I guess not enough posts. For everyone else, 2 posts too many!

How am I not buying what I'm selling simply because I find having a dialogue with you a complete bore and a considerable waste of my energy? Even the Dalai Llama would recognize the moment of futility. Regardless, don't you have studying to do, or something more important in vet school than trying to prove your point on SDN? Riddle me that!

Excuse me while I go pray to Jesus and ask him if vet school will be any worse than this thread.

 

[krue]

Too much "positivity" is just as damaging as too much negativity.

Awwww... geee.... peace/love/harmony, bro! Or was that all bs, too? 🙄

Sounds to me like even you aren't buying what you're selling. Your positivism lasted for ... what ... 3 posts?

Sounds familiar...
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Were you trying to converse with RagtimeWillie or drag her into the dark side?

 

[DVMDream]

You previously said: "There are no mistakes and hopefully no regrets." I'm not sure it's even possible to take that out of context because you didn't put any bounds on it. So I think my point is justified.

There certainly are mistakes. And there certainly are things I've done that I regret. And if I didn't regret them, I'd consider myself broken. Regret is just another way of learning from something. I'd even argue that if you're unwilling to step up and say "I failed" you aren't really learning from the failure.

Absolute positivism is, I think, merely an unhealthy fear of failure, or an inability to confidently manage failure.

I agree. You have to have regret to recognize something as a mistake and regret is what allows us to learn from mistakes. If we really never regretted anything that we did or mistakes that me made then we would never improve or learn from them. Regret is a part of human nature, it isn't a bad thing, it is what allows us to learn and to realize that we we did was wrong, without it we would be heartless and uncaring. Regret is good, embrace it.

 

[nyanko]

I agree. You have to have regret to recognize something as a mistake and regret is what allows us to learn from mistakes. If we really never regretted anything that we did or mistakes that me made then we would never improve or learn from them. Regret is a part of human nature, it isn't a bad thing, it is what allows us to learn and to realize that we we did was wrong, without it we would be heartless and uncaring. Regret is good, embrace it.

The problem with regret is when people hold on to it, IMO. I don't think anyone would ever call me too optimistic (loll) but I sure as hell don't waste time on regretting things once I've worked them out however I felt necessary. I prefer to direct my limited mental energy towards things that I can still change. Incorporate the lesson, let go of the regret. 😉

 

[DVMDream]

The problem with regret is when people hold on to it, IMO. I don't think anyone would ever call me too optimistic (loll) but I sure as hell don't waste time on regretting things once I've worked them out however I felt necessary. I prefer to direct my limited mental energy towards things that I can still change. Incorporate the lesson, let go of the regret. 😉

Nyanko.... optimistic... 😛

I agree with the above though. 🙂

 

[tropictuco]

The problem with regret is when people hold on to it, IMO. I don't think anyone would ever call me too optimistic (loll) but I sure as hell don't waste time on regretting things once I've worked them out however I felt necessary. I prefer to direct my limited mental energy towards things that I can still change. Incorporate the lesson, let go of the regret. 😉

Great way to put it...I was puzzling over how to say pretty much the same thing. I think mistakes absolutely exist. But I've heard people talk about the things they'd regret "on their deathbed" (like, I don't know, marrying the wrong person or something) and I don't believe in that. Life is a journey...it's not supposed to be smooth and happy all the time. Maybe I could "regret" my 17-year-old self doing something stupid, but at the end of the day I have to remember that when I was 17, I made that decision based on the information and emotions I had to work with at the time. And now I can make different (and hopefully better) decisions because I have better information and better-developed emotions.

From working as a restaurant server, I learned that the best way to deal with mistakes is to 1) own up to them as quickly as possible, 2) deal with fixing it, and 3) let go of it as soon as possible. I can't give my best service to table 22 on a busy night when I'm still kicking myself over messing up table 93.

 

[anotherbusybee]

All of my closest friends are pre-med and many are applying right now. I feel very close to them and empathize with their situation because, honestly, there is an incredible selection pressure that vet school applications can't even compare to. Try 7000 applicants for <100 medical school spots 😉 And here I am complaining about 1000 applicants for 100 spots!

So, when I came across this thread in the pre-med forum, I thought this was incredibly intriguing and it makes me really interested in the perceived differences pre-med vs pre-vet applicants have towards their undergrad institutions. It's some very interesting food for thought:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=945526&highlight=undergrad+rank

 

[wolfspeaker]

All of my closest friends are pre-med and many are applying right now. I feel very close to them and empathize with their situation because, honestly, there is an incredible selection pressure that vet school applications can't even compare to. Try 7000 applicants for <100 medical school spots 😉 And here I am complaining about 1000 applicants for 100 spots!

So, when I came across this thread in the pre-med forum, I thought this was incredibly intriguing and it makes me really interested in the perceived differences pre-med vs pre-vet applicants have towards their undergrad institutions. It's some very interesting food for thought:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=945526&highlight=undergrad+rank

BUT, there are MANY more Med schools than Vet schools. You have to consider that as well.

 

[equineconstant]

BUT, there are MANY more Med schools than Vet schools. You have to consider that as well.

Sure, but if they're still getting 7000 applicants for >100 spots that doesn't mean much in terms of how competitive the actual application is. I feel like med students just cast their nets wider because of that. Both of the pre-med students in my biochem lab applied to 17 schools each, whereas I get the impression that 10-12 schools is a pretty high number for vet school applications. Admittedly, small sample sizes, but eh.

 

[Foxhunter]

Sure, but if they're still getting 7000 applicants for >100 spots that doesn't mean much in terms of how competitive the actual application is. I feel like med students just cast their nets wider because of that. Both of the pre-med students in my biochem lab applied to 17 schools each, whereas I get the impression that 10-12 schools is a pretty high number for vet school applications. Admittedly, small sample sizes, but eh.

But percentage wise- if I apply to 7 schools I applied to 25% of the vet schools in the country. Applying to 17 med schools is much lower than 10% of the schools in the country.

My personal opinion is that getting into a tier one med school is harder than getting into vet school, but getting into a vet school is harder than getting into a med school

 

[kernel]

My personal opinion is that getting into a tier one med school is harder than getting into vet school, but getting into a vet school is harder than getting into a med school

👍

Top tier medical schools won't take anyone who isn't outstanding in all facets of their application. If all vet schools were like that, I wouldn't even bother applying. Luckily, an applicant who might not have the most stellar GPA can make themselves stand out by emphasizing unique experiences, etc. The same goes for some of the lesser-competitive medical schools.

I've also noticed that some people are admitted to med school with very little shadowing/med-related experience (I know of someone who did a LOT of community service, like homeless shelter work and transitioning youth outreach, but only shadowed one physician, and for about 100 hours). If that's often the case, part of me wants to say that pre-vet students work harder (AHEM those of you who are techs, shadow, do 4H, and volunteer every week!), but that's my ridiculously biased opinion. Nevertheless, I definitely think it makes pre-vet students more prepared and gives them a better idea of what the field is like.

 

[PetPony]

I do get to listen to pre-meds complain about having to get 50 hours of shadowing every once in a while.

(But it might be harder too because people don't want random students in their appointments etc. Our hospital for example is very strict about how often they can come to shadow. Something like once or twice a semester.)

 

[bunnity]

But percentage wise- if I apply to 7 schools I applied to 25% of the vet schools in the country. Applying to 17 med schools is much lower than 10% of the schools in the country.

My personal opinion is that getting into a tier one med school is harder than getting into vet school, but getting into a vet school is harder than getting into a med school

It's not the percent of schools you apply to that affects your chances. It's the average percent chance of getting into a school multiplied by the number of schools you apply to.

 

[kernel]

I do get to listen to pre-meds complain about having to get 50 hours of shadowing every once in a while.

(But it might be harder too because people don't want random students in their appointments etc. Our hospital for example is very strict about how often they can come to shadow. Something like once or twice a semester.)

That's interesting, because it's true. Some people can get lucky though. Storytime!

Way back in the dark ages, I was actually pre-med (only for about 5 minutes, I swear! ).
I was INCREDIBLY lucky: my best friend's father is a neurosurgeon, and a really interesting, driven, "nobody gets in my way," off-the-wall guy (then again, don't you have to be, to do that kind of work?). Anyway, none of his children had ever taken an interest in his career, but when I asked him if I could shadow, he literally laid out the red carpet for me. Needless to say, he pulled quite a few strings for me. And while I *did* fill out the necessary paperwork and did the TB test required to shadow in the hospital, to this day I'm not sure how many rules he violated for me... I got to watch a brain surgery on my second day of shadowing him. The nurses were giving me hell when I first got into the OR, essentially telling me to shut up, sit in the corner, and not move. Well, in waltzed Dr. Awesome, all scrubbed up. He pointed directly at me, and paused for a moment while the PA, nurses and anesthesiologist all looked over at me. "YOU," he barked, "Do you want to be a doctor?"
"Yes," I squeaked.
"NEVER sit down. Get over here!!"
I want to say he plopped me in front of him, and did the surgery with his arms around me, because that's what it felt like. There was a human brain, like two feet from my face. Being 16 at the time, the whole experience completely blew my mind. He also introduced me to all of his colleagues, and gave me lessons about anatomy, study skills, bedside manners, and much more. No one, in any pre-healthy field, could ever dream of having a more enthusiastic mentor. What a guy.

My parents were actually a little bummed when I switched to pre-vet (read:woke up), not just because of the financial implications, but because I wouldn't be able to shadow this guy anymore.

Interestingly, I had to start from scratch when it came to getting experience with veterinarians. I knew only ONE veterinarian, and she had been retired for some time. We didn't have a family vet because, *gasp,* we didn't have any pets! Nevertheless, it was easy to connect with someone. Also of course, as you said, vet clinics have more flexibility and self-governance when it comes to safety and patient privacy protocols.

Wow, lengthy. You can tell that I'm procrastinating on something...

 

[Foxhunter]

It's not the percent of schools you apply to that affects your chances. It's the average percent chance of getting into a school multiplied by the number of schools you apply to.

I understand this. My point was about the number of vet vs medical schools.

 

[StartingoverVet]

It's not the percent of schools you apply to that affects your chances. It's the average percent chance of getting into a school multiplied by the number of schools you apply to.

I think you miss foxhunter's point... is it harder to get into med school or vet school debate (which is a stupid debate, but that is another issue).

If all med students and vet students applied to 17 schools.

And if the admittance rate were the same at both schools...let's pick a random number out of the air... and call it 5.8%.

Then EVERY vet student would get into a school... but since there are like 100x more medical schools (i have no idea... just saying).. only 1% of med students would get in.

Why?
Because vet students applied in my example to 100% of the schools, but med students only apply to 1% of the schools.

The exact numbers don't matter. I just used easy numbers to work with, but conceptually I think it is quite clear:

The point is. IF the admittance rates are similar, it would be harder to get into med school because NO ONE could apply to as high a % of med schools as vet schools.

 

[bunnity]

I think you miss foxhunter's point... is it harder to get into med school or vet school debate (which is a stupid debate, but that is another issue).

If all med students and vet students applied to 17 schools.

And if the admittance rate were the same at both schools...let's pick a random number out of the air... and call it 5.8%.

Then EVERY vet student would get into a school... but since there are like 100x more medical schools (i have no idea... just saying).. only 1% of med students would get in.

Why?
Because vet students applied in my example to 100% of the schools, but med students only apply to 1% of the schools.

The exact numbers don't matter. I just used easy numbers to work with, but conceptually I think it is quite clear:

The point is. IF the admittance rates are similar, it would be harder to get into med school because NO ONE could apply to as high a % of med schools as vet schools.

This math doesn't work(?)

 

[Foxhunter]

I think you miss foxhunter's point... is it harder to get into med school or vet school debate (which is a stupid debate, but that is another issue).

If all med students and vet students applied to 17 schools.

And if the admittance rate were the same at both schools...let's pick a random number out of the air... and call it 5.8%.

Then EVERY vet student would get into a school... but since there are like 100x more medical schools (i have no idea... just saying).. only 1% of med students would get in.

Why?
Because vet students applied in my example to 100% of the schools, but med students only apply to 1% of the schools.

The exact numbers don't matter. I just used easy numbers to work with, but conceptually I think it is quite clear:

The point is. IF the admittance rates are similar, it would be harder to get into med school because NO ONE could apply to as high a % of med schools as vet schools.

I see where you're going, but I think you're taking the wrong way.

My point is mainly that let's say there are factors limiting which schools you can apply to: money, location, significant others, views on non-trads, etc. There will be many more med schools that fit those criteria for a student than vet schools. Percentage wise- a student who is applying to 7 vet schools is in a lot of ways casting a wider net than the pre-med applying to 17 med schools.

 

[anotherbusybee]

Back on track...

Top tier medical schools won't take anyone who isn't outstanding in all facets of their application. If all vet schools were like that, I wouldn't even bother applying. Luckily, an applicant who might not have the most stellar GPA can make themselves stand out by emphasizing unique experiences, etc. The same goes for some of the lesser-competitive medical schools.

Yes, I think that's the impression I get, too. It was just interesting to me because one of those posters sits on an admissions committee and she said outright that undergrad institutions do matter. It made me think back to how things work with vet school apps, and I thought it was a cool foil to think about.

 

[Foxhunter]

Back on track...

Yes, I think that's the impression I get, too. It was just interesting to me because one of those posters sits on an admissions committee and she said outright that undergrad institutions do matter. It made me think back to how things work with vet school apps, and I thought it was a cool foil to think about.

I think it depends on the vet school whether or not your undergraduate institution/major matters. I think I was immediately cut from some schools because of a low (3.61) cumulative GPA, while others recognized that a 3.61 in Physics at a top 25 university might not necessarily speak poorly of my abilities (for the most part it was one B- in Advanced Applied Multivariable Mathematics that dropped my GPA below the 3.7 mark). On my interviews multiple interviewers told me that I had greatly benefited from the close review that was done of my application because I applied to the combined programs (they were only looking at 25-40 applications so they all got closely read).

I have a friend who went to a low ranked school but had a high GPA and average MCATs, he had a helluva time even getting med school interviews and ended up doing a PhD instead.

 

[StartingoverVet]

This math doesn't work(?)

Come over and I will explain it.😀

It is absolutely correct, although perhaps not well demonstrated (it assumes that schools will fill all their spots - which they do eventually... If EVERYONE applied to all vet schools, a small % would get in everywhere, and then there would be huge movement off wait lists... but ultimately it is the same thing. at a 5.8% rate with every school applied... there is a spot for everyone in my hypothetical example -definitely not happening in real life "yet")

 

[StartingoverVet]

I see where you're going, but I think you're taking the wrong way.

My point is mainly that let's say there are factors limiting which schools you can apply to: money, location, significant others, views on non-trads, etc. There will be many more med schools that fit those criteria for a student than vet schools. Percentage wise- a student who is applying to 7 vet schools is in a lot of ways casting a wider net than the pre-med applying to 17 med schools.

Agreed. That too.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I think it depends on the vet school whether or not your undergraduate institution/major matters. I think I was immediately cut from some schools because of a low (3.61) cumulative GPA, while others recognized that a 3.61 in Physics at a top 25 university might not necessarily speak poorly of my abilities (for the most part it was one B- in Advanced Applied Multivariable Mathematics that dropped my GPA below the 3.7 mark). On my interviews multiple interviewers told me that I had greatly benefited from the close review that was done of my application because I applied to the combined programs (they were only looking at 25-40 applications so they all got closely read).

I have a friend who went to a low ranked school but had a high GPA and average MCATs, he had a helluva time even getting med school interviews and ended up doing a PhD instead.

Hmmm. I am pretty skeptical of any school considering 3.61 LOW. It is about average, unless you are on a different grading system (out of 5?)

Certainly not low enough for ANY school to "cut" an applicant.

 

[Foxhunter]

Hmmm. I am pretty skeptical of any school considering 3.61 LOW. It is about average, unless you are on a different grading system (out of 5?)

Certainly not low enough for ANY school to "cut" an applicant.

Lowest accepted OOS GPA at NCSU last cycle... Makes me proud...I don't think I would have gotten in here without networking I had done the year before I applied. I think the fact that the head of the committee could put a face to my name and a personality to my application helped me a ton. He told me that generally NCSU ends up setting the OOS cut-off mark between 3.6 and 3.65 depending on the number of applicants, average GPA, etc. Thus, I think to some extent it's low for an out of state applicant. When you have hundreds of applicants for 25 spots I don't blame schools for saying let's just look at the 3.8s and above or the top 50th percentile or something.

 

[dyachei]

Lowest accepted OOS GPA at NCSU last cycle... Makes me proud...I don't think I would have gotten in here without networking I had done the year before I applied. I think the fact that the head of the committee could put a face to my name and a personality to my application helped me a ton. He told me that generally NCSU ends up setting the OOS cut-off mark between 3.6 and 3.65 depending on the number of applicants, average GPA, etc. Thus, I think to some extent it's low for an out of state applicant. When you have hundreds of applicants for 25 spots I don't blame schools for saying let's just look at the 3.8s and above or the top 50th percentile or something.

I do. Grades are very subjective and not at all a good indicator of how good a vet you will be. I know that employers certainly have an aversion to someone who puts their high GPA on their resume (veterinary) as they often find that those people are harder to work with....

 

[Foxhunter]

I do. Grades are very subjective and not at all a good indicator of how good a vet you will be. I know that employers certainly have an aversion to someone who puts their high GPA on their resume (veterinary) as they often find that those people are harder to work with....

I'm not saying it's the best way. Just I don't really fault them for doing it. You have to narrow down the applicant pool somehow.

 

[dyachei]

I'm not saying it's the best way. Just I don't really fault them for doing it. You have to narrow down the applicant pool somehow.

Oh, I agree. But I would rather they look at anything other than grades. And saying to someone with a 3.6 "you're not good enough" is really not going to give them the best class. I'd rather have them start with personal statements and go through there. You get a much better feel on communication style, professionalism, and thought processes.

 

[cdndvm]

I do. Grades are very subjective and not at all a good indicator of how good a vet you will be. I know that employers certainly have an aversion to someone who puts their high GPA on their resume (veterinary) as they often find that those people are harder to work with....

Although grades may not be a perfect indicator of clinical performance, when we are comparing students for internships, the ones who typically stand out with superior clinical skills and knowledge base are those (usually) in the top 25% of their class. So from my perspective there definitely appears to be a correlation between how you perform in vet school, and how you perform on the clinic floor.

 

[Foxhunter]

Oh, I agree. But I would rather they look at anything other than grades. And saying to someone with a 3.6 "you're not good enough" is really not going to give them the best class. I'd rather have them start with personal statements and go through there. You get a much better feel on communication style, professionalism, and thought processes.

For sure. Much more time consuming though; there's also the ever-present worry that someone else wrote the Personal Statement for them. I don't think there's a perfect way to do it. I wish all (most) aspects were weighted equally (GRE, GPA, quality and depth of experience, personal statement, and interview (if they do that)). PetPony's comment about interviews was really interesting though, she said that UGA found that those who interviewed best did worse in vet school (I'm assuming here "interview best" refers to people who wouldn't have been offered a spot without a stellar interview).

 

[cdndvm]

For sure. Much more time consuming though; there's also the ever-present worry that someone else wrote the Personal Statement for them..

Definitely. The other issue comes down to fairness... the ideal admission system would objectively rank candidates on every admission criteria. Numbers and math are the only way to do that... I think this is why the first cut is typically based on a numerical ranking of candidates based on their GPA and GRE scores. Then the subjective, intangible qualities are assessed by real people. Having just had to review greater then 400 applications for ~100 spots, it is brutally difficult to chose who is a better candidate based on LORs (which are typically always good), and personal statements (which are almost always well written, and exceeding similar from applicant to applicant).

 

[bunnity]

I do. Grades are very subjective and not at all a good indicator of how good a vet you will be. I know that employers certainly have an aversion to someone who puts their high GPA on their resume (veterinary) as they often find that those people are harder to work with....

I'm totally sympathetic to your point but I think it sucks to think that "grades don't matter" and then discriminate against people with high grades too. Not saying that YOU discriminate against them but I think if grades don't matter, grades don't matter.

And SOV... maybe once all the birds, lizards, derm, and neuro have left my brain!

 

[dyachei]

I'm totally sympathetic to your point but I think it sucks to think that "grades don't matter" and then discriminate against people with high grades too. Not saying that YOU discriminate against them but I think if grades don't matter, grades don't matter.

And SOV... maybe once all the birds, lizards, derm, and neuro have left my brain!

Oh, I agree. It sucks to discriminate based on anything. I mean, they have to discriminate to choose their best candidates for admission. A 3.6 does seem pretty high to rule out all other candidates.

 

[bunnity]

Oh, I agree. It sucks to discriminate based on anything. I mean, they have to discriminate to choose their best candidates for admission. A 3.6 does seem pretty high to rule out all other candidates.

Definitely. I hope that didn't really happen.

 

[orcagirl]

Oh, I agree. It sucks to discriminate based on anything. I mean, they have to discriminate to choose their best candidates for admission. A 3.6 does seem pretty high to rule out all other candidates.

It does. However, in this case only ~4% of the out of state applicants were accepted. Only 20 of the 100 seats were for OOS. So I suppose when you have amazing students they think that is the best way to go. I'm not saying it's the best, but without putting even more man-hours into the process, is there a better way to make initial cuts?

 

[grumpycat]

Comparing the opinions of admissions committee members for medical and veterinary schools will bring you to absolutely no conclusions. Medical and veterinary school admissions are two entirely different animals (ha!)

I may get hate for the following comments, but..... medical schools, as well as most of their students, are [generally] all about the glory and prestige. Medical schools usually care about school prestige while [most] veterinary schools do not. Veterinary schools are filled with people who love what they do and have proven it in their applications through their experiences. There is likely little to no financial angle that matriculating veterinary students are trying to conquer, which is in sharp contrast to the medical field. Veterinary applicants will get hours in fields that they love, take courses that they are interested in, etc.

Medical applicants will try to get the best grades at the best schools while filling their applications with experiences that look best on paper, all the while consuming numerous poop hot dogs, because this is what is necessary. That is the application game that they must play. Since veterinary schools care more about a high GPA at pretty much any type of institution accompanied by great experiences, applicants should cater their apps to THAT game.

It sucks that some of us might not have known this, but oh well. Your past grades are in the past, regardless of where they were acquired. Focus on the future 👍 I went to a great Tier-1 school and got mediocre grades, but I'm not going to dwell on it. I'm also not going to expect admissions to be awed by the rigor of my undergrad courses, since I obviously didn't get fantastic marks in them. Just be happy that you get to brag that you went to so-and-so undergrad, since that is obviously important to some of you 🙄

 

[cdndvm]

I may get hate for the following comments, but..... medical schools, as well as most of their students, are [generally] all about the glory and prestige. Medical schools usually care about school prestige while [most] veterinary schools do not. Veterinary schools are filled with people who love what they do and have proven it in their applications through their experiences. There is likely little to no financial angle that matriculating veterinary students are trying to conquer, which is in sharp contrast to the medical field. Veterinary applicants will get hours in fields that they love, take courses that they are interested in, etc.

This is a completely ridiculous comment.

 

[anotherbusybee]

Ugh. I don't want to respond because of all the fallacies in that statement, but I have to. Members of my family are applying to medical school, and virtually all of my closest friends are pre-med. Suffice it to say that you have an incredibly sad view of people who devote their entire undergraduate career to studying hard and earning high grades and who devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to their education (often in the form of monstrous debt) and who slave away for 7-8 years post-college all to improve the lives of people like you and me. There is no glory nor prestige in that entire process aside from the humility of knowing that one is working to improve the lives of other people. And you must not be aware of the healthcare system reforms that are challenging new MD/DO graduates' abilities to find a suitable, stable, well-paying careers.

Besides, it's a completely moot argument. The fundamental question of this thread was asking: Do veterinary schools consider ALL grades as indicative of the same levels of achievement? All other questions of rigor or rank or judgment or whatever are based off of this question, IMO.

I brought up the thread from the pre-med thread to show that, in other similar processes (i.e. other schools of medicine), admissions committees clearly state that they do consider one's undergraduate institution as a factor in academic assessments. And my guess is that some vet schools do the same, i.e. Cornell's formula allows for 5% of consideration for "Quality of Academic Program".

Whenever we talk about grades or "numbers" as indicators of a person's ability, there are always extra factors and considerations. But the fundamental question of this thread, imo, was asking if admissions committees at veterinary schools view ALL grades (regardless of institution) as indicative of the same levels of achievement. And I thought that the pre-med thread would help give some insight as to how other professions deal with this very difficult and, in many ways, unanswerable question.

 

[grumpycat]

Ugh. I don't want to respond because of all the fallacies in that statement, but I have to. Members of my family are applying to medical school, and virtually all of my closest friends are pre-med. Suffice it to say that you have an incredibly sad view of people who devote their entire undergraduate career to studying hard and earning high grades and who devote hundreds of thousands of dollars to their education (often in the form of monstrous debt) and who slave away for 7-8 years post-college all to improve the lives of people like you and me. There is no glory nor prestige in that entire process aside from the humility of knowing that one is working to improve the lives of other people. And you must not be aware of the healthcare system reforms that are challenging new MD/DO graduates' abilities to find a suitable, stable, well-paying careers.

Besides, it's a completely moot argument. The fundamental question of this thread was asking: Do veterinary schools consider ALL grades as indicative of the same levels of achievement? All other questions of rigor or rank or judgment or whatever are based off of this question, IMO.

I brought up the thread from the pre-med thread to show that, in other similar processes (i.e. other schools of medicine), admissions committees clearly state that they do consider one's undergraduate institution as a factor in academic assessments. And my guess is that some vet schools do the same, i.e. Cornell's formula allows for 5% of consideration for "Quality of Academic Program".

Whenever we talk about grades or "numbers" as indicators of a person's ability, there are always extra factors and considerations. But the fundamental question of this thread, imo, was asking if admissions committees at veterinary schools view ALL grades (regardless of institution) as indicative of the same levels of achievement. And I thought that the pre-med thread would help give some insight as to how other professions deal with this very difficult and, in many ways, unanswerable question.

Oh wow, geez. I just reread my post and I sound like such an ignorant ass! That is what I get for multi-tasking while typing out my reply. I should have definitely explained my comment more and disclosed that (gasp) I was formerly pre-med up until my senior year. I gave up right after my first round of rejections (and silent rejections........................) because I realized that I am willing to pay for my own veterinary schooling and I really don't want to be a part of that field. My heart was never in it and I was actually also blinded by the hopes of attaining that fat paycheck and the 'M.D.' after my name.

The prestige and glory that I was referring to was in terms of medical students' mindsets on reputations and how they placements for residencies, internships, fellowships and the like. I thought that I had written this in there, but I guess not. The statement really is ridiculous if I just read it as is. There are plenty of bad seeds who enter medicine for the money (like myself), which really can't be denied. Both the medical and veterinary fields are filled with people who want to make a difference and are pursuing their dreams, but you can't say that medicine isn't filled with some students who are forgoing the fields that they would love to enter in order to make big bucks. Of course there are hard workers who will go on to be great doctors who really care about their patients! On the other hand, a lot of medical students are driven by their dreams of their future paychecks... Veterinary students pick their fields based on what they are interested in, but it is a sad fact that many medical students will strive for neuro, surgical, ortho or derm residencies for the glory and the money. Even attaining shadowing spots under doctors in these fields is cutthroat. You don't often find students fighting to become primary care providers, which are fulfilling jobs with loads of patient contact, because they are 'last resort' positions that are scoffed at by snotty med students. If you are female and say that you want to enter peds, you get an eye roll and a smirk. When prestige and desire come into play, the stakes are raised and the playing field changes dramatically, thus why the medical school application process is insane.

The majority of my friends are still applying to, or are currently attending, medical school and I have great respect for [most of] them. However, there really are some terrible people in that field who are focused on dollar signs and how many designations they can list on the plaques outside of their offices. You won't likely see a veterinary applicant volunteering in a free clinic because it "looks good on apps", only to later laugh about the patients' body odors or complain about how a homeless person dared to touch his or her arm. While getting my vet experience, I always felt good about what I was doing and I noticed that all of my peers did as well, which I can't say for my human patient/clinical experiences. There is less of 'this better be worth it' and more 'this is so worth it'. I am actually taking classes that I love to learn more about the field that I want to enter because I want to. This is completely different from when I suffered through Spanish and Health Systems courses because 'med schools like seeing them'.

Wow I really went off on a tangent, didn't I. Lol