Consolidation in Rad Onc Practices

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fiji128

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This is an interesting Astro podcast about consolidation of practices in rad onc with some APM stuff in there too. Worth a listen.



Link to the Red Journal paper:


And associated editorial:

 
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This is an interesting Astro podcast about consolidation of practices in rad onc with some APM stuff in there too. Worth a listen.


Should I take Prozac before listening
 
One-third of all the rad oncs in the U.S. are employed by just 90 practices????

Some have hinted at and shown this data.

6SayuEw.jpg

I hope they have jobs available this upcoming decade for the new grads. (By jobs I mean musical chairs.)
 
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Some interesting data from above. Rad Onc maybe the most highly consolidated specialty in medicine (not really surprising).

Number of practices in 2013 was 1679 and in 2017 was 1615.
Number of MDs in 2013 was 5000 and in 2017 was 5415. Yikes!
Number of practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 60 and in 2017 was 90.
Percentage of MDs working in practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 24% and in 2017 was 34%.

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate these numbers to 2021 and say there maybe close to 5800 rad oncs practicing now.
 
Some interesting data from above. Rad Onc maybe the most highly consolidated specialty in medicine (not really surprising).

Number of practices in 2013 was 1679 and in 2017 was 1615.
Number of MDs in 2013 was 5000 and in 2017 was 5415. Yikes!
Number of practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 60 and in 2017 was 90.
Percentage of MDs working in practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 24% and in 2017 was 34%.

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate these numbers to 2021 and say there maybe close to 5800 rad oncs practicing now.
5415 vs 4948 ROs in 2017 vs 2013.

Increasing at a rate of 117 a year.

So it would be exactly 6000 rad oncs in the U.S. by 2022 (3 months from now) at that rate.

Didn't someone exactly predict this.

pzZwg6O.png
 
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I've gotta get off the internet.

I sit in my office while the admins and partners parade in to talk to me about reimbursement cuts and APM.

I get on SDN...and it's SDN.

I go to the Red Journal and see this.

I get on Twitter and get excited about the cardiac stuff...just to watch "leaders" try their hardest to shut down any whiff of expanding indications for XRT.

In the meantime, I guess I'll keep writing Viagra scripts!
 
You forgot the red journal link?
 
5415 vs 4948 ROs in 2017 vs 2013.

Increasing at a rate of 117 a year.

So it would be exactly 6000 rad oncs in the U.S. by 2022 at that rate.

Didn't someone exactly predict this.

pzZwg6O.png

If we are net increasing rad oncs at about 117 per year then to keep the specialty stable in the 5 to 10 year time frame we need to cut about 117 of the 190 residency spots. Essentially the majority of programs need to shut down just to keep things stable so we can tread water. Not even factoring all the other things influencing demand for our services.

There is literally no hope for this specialty.
 
If we are net increasing rad oncs at about per 117 year then to keep the specialty stable in the 5 to 10 year time frame we need to cut about 117 of the 190 residency spots. Essentially the majority of programs need to shut down just to keep things stable so we can tread water. Not even factoring all the other things influencing demand for our services.

There is literally no hope for this specialty.

Will be joining the ranks of pathology very soon
 
If we are net increasing rad oncs at about per 117 year then to keep the specialty stable in the 5 to 10 year time frame we need to cut about 117 of the 190 residency spots. Essentially the majority of programs need to shut down just to keep things stable so we can tread water. Not even factoring all the other things influencing demand for our services.

There is literally no hope for this specialty.
I think the 117 a year is a mild lowball. Every time I check the numbers, they creep up a bit.

I like this ratio: 200 new ROs per year, and 70 per year are retiring... or....

I was in residency with one guy who practiced in the South for several years at a major academic satellite. I can not find him. I have no idea if he is working or not, but if he is, it must be non-permanent. I lost his contact info so can't contact directly. He's young!

Another female one year behind me practiced at one job out of residency in FL for a large group. She got unceremoniously canned for no reason (I think because low volume) but this was almost a year ago. I can not determine if she is working or not, nor can any of my friends, so we have to assume not working. Out of a sphere of about 6-7 residents nearby me in training age, 2 are not working!

But back to numbers. I feel like the data is telling me that we are adding 130/year. We really need to turn off all residencies for 5 years. That would be hugely helpful to every RO in America. Believe me or not, Leaders.
 
Listened to entire podcast, thanks for posting it OP.

Short version: Due to increased regulations and costs in RO there is a trend towards practice consolidation in the field. But don’t worry, more physicians means more peer review and more patients means better outcomes. The data is mixed on proving those things, but it makes sense right?

Nothing can really stop consolidation except maybe federal anti-trust action. APM will accelerate consolidation. Dermatology is an example where consolidation happened through private equity. In order to maximize profit they limit the number of physicians hired and use APCs to max their profitability.

Zeitman’s awesome take on all this: Despite all this I remain optimistic that consolidation will reduce costs, improve quality, and give ROs more job security.

1632839846437.jpeg
 
Listened to entire podcast, thanks for posting it OP.

Short version: Due to increased regulations and costs in RO there is a trend towards practice consolidation in the field. But don’t worry, more physicians means more peer review and more patients means better outcomes. The data is mixed on proving those things, but it makes sense right?

Nothing can really stop consolidation except maybe federal anti-trust action. APM will accelerate consolidation. Dermatology is an example where consolidation happened through private equity. In order to maximize profit they limit the number of physicians hired and use APCs to max their profitability.

Zeitman’s awesome take on all this: Despite all this I remain optimistic that consolidation will reduce costs, improve quality, and give ROs more job security.

View attachment 343906
It's moving into delusion or intentional gaslighting. Either way, not the people I want in the bridge of the ship. Jean-Luc Picard would never have delusions or gaslight you.
 
Zeitman’s awesome take on all this: Despite all this I remain optimistic that consolidation will reduce costs, improve quality, and give ROs more job security.

I was in the audience at ASTRO years ago when he said that decline in interest from medical students would be "the canary in the coal mine" that the job market is dying.

Ok, the canary has died. What are you doing about it?

The answer: Nothing. It will come back to life by continuing on our present course.

Isn't he worried that the mine is going to explode soon? No, just like the rest of this specialty's "leadership", he's sitting comfortably on the sidelines with so much accumulated gold that when the mine explodes he'll just retire comfortably.

I still remember at ASTRO that the room was so packed with concerned residents like myself that people had to sit on the floor all around. He compared us to kindergarteners. I asked a question at the end that was deflected and essentially ignored with admin speak. That's all we are: children. Enjoy your chicken nuggets and be quiet while the adults destroy the field.


PS: The "adults" (i.e. the leadership) all think rad oncs make too much money. Some say it publicly (like Ralph W. or D. Hallahan), others keep it behind closed doors. How do you think that they're going to "reduce costs" ? Reduce salaries and benefits of course! When they over-expand residencies and consolidate everyone into a shrinking number of health systems you will have no negotiating power. This is by design.
 
Listened to entire podcast, thanks for posting it OP.

Short version: Due to increased regulations and costs in RO there is a trend towards practice consolidation in the field. But don’t worry, more physicians means more peer review and more patients means better outcomes. The data is mixed on proving those things, but it makes sense right?

Nothing can really stop consolidation except maybe federal anti-trust action. APM will accelerate consolidation. Dermatology is an example where consolidation happened through private equity. In order to maximize profit they limit the number of physicians hired and use APCs to max their profitability.

Zeitman’s awesome take on all this: Despite all this I remain optimistic that consolidation will reduce costs, improve quality, and give ROs more job security.

View attachment 343906

States can also work to ensure practices don't establish monopolies at the local level. We've had to work with the state attorney general before to make sure we weren't growing too much and becoming too monopolistic.

Just once I would like someone with decent standing in academia to acknowledge the reality all around us. Not holding my breath.
 
Anthony “the invisible hand” Zeitman.

I was in the audience at ASTRO years ago when he said that decline in interest from medical students would be "the canary in the coal mine" that the job market is dying.

Ok, the canary has died. What are you doing about it?
It's hot in the coal mine! Gotta go shirtless.

I like Tony. But we need serious people right now doing serious things and the incessant circle-jerking is getting us nowhere.

gr3_lrg.jpg
 
Zeitman did absolutely nothing while every single piece of data said bad things were coming. Excuse me if I think whatever take he has now that the bad things are here is completely worthless....like his tenure at ASTRO.

Hid behind anti trust crap which was at best a weak kneed response...but at worst could have been a fabricated excuse.

I'm encouraged by leaders like Yom, Spratt, Simul, Shah et al. The zeitman era is dead to me.
 
Is this consolidation any more than the known massive expansion of academic radonc with takeover of smaller hospital systems and practices? Is there any meaningful contribution by true private practice consolidation?

I mean the known shift to academic employment over the same time period completely parallels thinking of this independently in terms of size of practice.
 
Some interesting data from above. Rad Onc maybe the most highly consolidated specialty in medicine (not really surprising).

Number of practices in 2013 was 1679 and in 2017 was 1615.
Number of MDs in 2013 was 5000 and in 2017 was 5415. Yikes!
Number of practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 60 and in 2017 was 90.
Percentage of MDs working in practices with >11 MDs in 2013 was 24% and in 2017 was 34%.

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate these numbers to 2021 and say there maybe close to 5800 rad oncs practicing now.
The following was the writing on the wall 8 years ago. Mergers and acquisitions will continue to slow as the "big ones" have already occurred. Rad Onc WIlL see a 5-8% practice reduction rate due to the FFS to VBC shift. this is unavoidable and part of the correction. As a hospital administrator I have a very unique understanding of how RO was positioned. Build a center and it would make money. the revenue met a need and more importantly was a $$$$ offset to the service lines losing money. this was more prevalent in Not for Profits obviously. Move the time forward. Many of these centers were created in more rural areas. Now those areas have even greater difficulty in recruiting MOs, ENTs and others. The cost of equipment (because there has been no accountability) has risen out of control. Payer mix shift has become more Medicare and self-pay in rural area. This is not sustainable for a high cost service line. Typically these centers have less disease diverse mix. Breast and Prostate. Hypfrac. hurts them even more. Pro fees alone wont keep a rad onc. Facilities writing $16-25K per month to supplement the RO, does not make long term sense either. Factor in centers treating 5-8 patients per day.
this is my career and :I methodically understand it from both sides. This is not new or surprising just part of the correction. The same players set it up for this vendors, admins, and professional society. I always say follow the money trail. This is not complicated. What is complicated is getting real data about our profession. Exactly how many centers are treating 10 or few patients per day? Where are they located? This is where I can easily do the rest. Been doing this since 2014. I took a rural center treating 12 patients that now treats 30 per day. It can be done!
 
Are you a hospital admin, clinician, or super hero?
Gotta pick one!

maybe a tape salesman!
 
The following was the writing on the wall 8 years ago. Mergers and acquisitions will continue to slow as the "big ones" have already occurred. Rad Onc WIlL see a 5-8% practice reduction rate due to the FFS to VBC shift. this is unavoidable and part of the correction. As a hospital administrator I have a very unique understanding of how RO was positioned. Build a center and it would make money. the revenue met a need and more importantly was a $$$$ offset to the service lines losing money. this was more prevalent in Not for Profits obviously. Move the time forward. Many of these centers were created in more rural areas. Now those areas have even greater difficulty in recruiting MOs, ENTs and others. The cost of equipment (because there has been no accountability) has risen out of control. Payer mix shift has become more Medicare and self-pay in rural area. This is not sustainable for a high cost service line. Typically these centers have less disease diverse mix. Breast and Prostate. Hypfrac. hurts them even more. Pro fees alone wont keep a rad onc. Facilities writing $16-25K per month to supplement the RO, does not make long term sense either. Factor in centers treating 5-8 patients per day.
this is my career and :I methodically understand it from both sides. This is not new or surprising just part of the correction. The same players set it up for this vendors, admins, and professional society. I always say follow the money trail. This is not complicated. What is complicated is getting real data about our profession. Exactly how many centers are treating 10 or few patients per day? Where are they located? This is where I can easily do the rest. Been doing this since 2014. I took a rural center treating 12 patients that now treats 30 per day. It can be done!

You took the center to those numbers, or the physician?

Was probably a team effort.
 
The following was the writing on the wall 8 years ago. Mergers and acquisitions will continue to slow as the "big ones" have already occurred. Rad Onc WIlL see a 5-8% practice reduction rate due to the FFS to VBC shift. this is unavoidable and part of the correction. As a hospital administrator I have a very unique understanding of how RO was positioned. Build a center and it would make money. the revenue met a need and more importantly was a $$$$ offset to the service lines losing money. this was more prevalent in Not for Profits obviously. Move the time forward. Many of these centers were created in more rural areas. Now those areas have even greater difficulty in recruiting MOs, ENTs and others. The cost of equipment (because there has been no accountability) has risen out of control. Payer mix shift has become more Medicare and self-pay in rural area. This is not sustainable for a high cost service line. Typically these centers have less disease diverse mix. Breast and Prostate. Hypfrac. hurts them even more. Pro fees alone wont keep a rad onc. Facilities writing $16-25K per month to supplement the RO, does not make long term sense either. Factor in centers treating 5-8 patients per day.
this is my career and :I methodically understand it from both sides. This is not new or surprising just part of the correction. The same players set it up for this vendors, admins, and professional society. I always say follow the money trail. This is not complicated. What is complicated is getting real data about our profession. Exactly how many centers are treating 10 or few patients per day? Where are they located? This is where I can easily do the rest. Been doing this since 2014. I took a rural center treating 12 patients that now treats 30 per day. It can be done!

"As a hospital administrator I have a very unique understanding of how RO was positioned." - Do you really think the information you subsequently wrote in that paragraph wasn't known by the vast majority of this board?
 
Zeitman did absolutely nothing while every single piece of data said bad things were coming. Excuse me if I think whatever take he has now that the bad things are here is completely worthless....like his tenure at ASTRO.

Hid behind anti trust crap which was at best a weak kneed response...but at worst could have been a fabricated excuse.

I'm encouraged by leaders like Yom, Spratt, Simul, Shah et al. The zeitman era is dead to me.
I like that you refer to me by my first name. Everyone seems to do that. My daughter, too, which I love.

Carry on, fantastic thread!
 
I like that you refer to me by my first name. Everyone seems to do that. My daughter, too, which I love.

Carry on, fantastic thread!

I certainly mean no disrespect. I think I just see the screen name and think that's just the name. You're like a one name icon like Sting, Bono, or Cher.
 
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I like that you refer to me by my first name. Everyone seems to do that. My daughter, too, which I love.

Carry on, fantastic thread!
Tough part is that if one just say Parikh people might wonder if you're talking about say Parag Parikh who is at least somewhat "rad onc famous".

Yom, Spratt, they're the only ones with those last names. I'm sure there's more Shahs in Rad Onc than just Chirag but none I can think of off the top of my head that are "rad onc famous"
 
Tough part is that if one just say Parikh people might wonder if you're talking about say Parag Parikh who is at least somewhat "rad onc famous".

Yom, Spratt, they're the only ones with those last names. I'm sure there's more Shahs in Rad Onc than just Chirag but none I can think of off the top of my head that are "rad onc famous"

Oh, totally. It just makes me smile that there is that comfort, funny to get a DM that says Dr Parikh
 
I'm going through the above cited Red Journal paper on this, DEFINE_ME and the separate paper published in PRO on the same topic, DEFINE_ME.

Both papers cite widely different statics regarding the number of practicing rad oncs.

From the Red Journal paper 4,948 MDs in 2013 and 5,415 MDs in 2017 (increase of 9.4%).
From the PRO paper paper 4,300 MDs in 2012 and 4,679 MDs in 2020 (increase of 9.0%).

Why are these figures so different and why is this such a hard thing to nail down?

From Red Journal paper's Methods section: "We utilized the Medicare Provider Enrollment, Chain, and Ownership System and Physician Compare databases to identify practices with radiation oncologists in 2013 and again in 2017. Individual practices were identified via unique individual or group practice tax identification numbers (TINs). Using this database, we were also able to obtain information on the location of each practice, as well as a listing of the National Provider Identifier (NPI) numbers of all radiation oncologists providing physician services within the practice. With these NPI numbers, we were able to link individual radiation oncologists at each practice to their billing records in the 2013 and 2017 Medicare Claims Carrier Files, which enumerates all physician service charges among a random subset of 20% of all Medicare beneficiaries. We further used NPI numbers to link to the Medicare Data on Provider Practice and Specialty database to obtain each radiation oncologist’s basic demographic information. We aggregated each practice’s zip code into specific Hospital Referral Regions (HRRs) as defined by the Dartmouth Atlas and extracted pertinent community characteristics as generated by the U.S. Census Bureau between the years 2011 and 2015.20 Table E1 provides further information on the specific datasets used and the linkages between each."

From the PRO paper's Methods section: "All data were obtained from the Physician Compare (PC) database. Given that this data set is publicly available and does not include patient-specific information, the study did not require institutional review board (IRB) approval. The PC database was created by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) in 2010 and is based on Medicare’s Provider Enrollment, Chain, and Ownership System (PECOS), a more comprehensive data set.22 The PC database contains information for health care providers who have either (1) newly registered in the PECOS system in the past 6 months, or (2) billed Medicare for at least 1 feefor-service reimbursement in the past 12 months; thus, all providers analyzed in our study meet these criteria. CMS uses billing claims to ensure that practice addresses are correct. The PC database is updated twice a month.23 In our study, we used data from the PC archive for 201224 (posted in September 2014) and April 2020.25 To identify RO physicians, the National Provider Identifier (NPI) was used. Those whose primary specialty was listed as RO were selected. The total number of individual practicing radiation oncologists and unique practices employing radiation oncologists were calculated for 2012 and 2020. A physician selection flowchart is provided in Fig. 1. Individual radiation oncologists were then categorized into bins based on their respective practice size (sizes 1-2, 3-9, 10-24, 25-49, 50-99, 100-499, and ≥500) using the same groupings as previous studies examining practice size consolidation.8,11 The number of individual radiation oncologists in each practice size category was determined for 2012 and 2020 using NPI (physician-level analysis). The number of unique practices in each practice size category for 2012 and 2020 was performed using a group’s Taxpayer Identification Number, or (TIN) (practice-level analysis). A Cochran-Armitage test for linear trend was used to determine whether the proportion of individual radiation oncologists or unique practices in each size category increased significantly between 2012 and 2020 for this test and tests in all subcategories. Nationwide data were divided into 4 US geographic census regions (Northeast, Midwest, South, and West), and the previously mentioned analysis was repeated for each. ....."
 
ASTRO is so good at what they do, they don't even know within 15% how many practicing potential members there are in this country.

Maybe start there ASTRO.
It really calls into question the quality of the research when something that should be knowable, at least within a few percent, like that is so far off from each other.

Also, these are figures that Astro should tract and have available each year. Isn't this like one of the most basic things for a professional society to understand and keep tract of?
 
Can someone give me a 5th grade version of what happened to rad onc? Like how’d it go from hero to zero so fast?
 
Doubling residency positions in a decade based on flawed projections of a future shortage.
Wow imagine all those top USMD and DO grads like 5-6+ years ago who gunned for this specialty only to have it go to complete ****
Kind of like how IR is right now
 
I remember that like a decade ago smug PD’s at high power places would even pass up on even high scoring USMD and DO to get MD PhD’s cause they were the creame or the crop. Now they will soap anyone with a pulse 🤣🤣
 
Thought IR was ok?
Yea IR Is ok, no doubt, I was just saying how IR suddenly became the most popular field among Med students, like how rad onc was years ago. But IR seems to take anyone who has the scores/research/commitment to field. There isn’t this attitude among IR PD’s that their field is too good for anyone and they only wanted MD PhD’s. This was the case for rad onc and it’s funny now that they are soaping every spot..
 
. There isn’t this attitude among IR PD’s that their field is too good for anyone and they only wanted MD PhD’s. This was the case for rad onc and it’s funny now that they are soaping every spot..
Yup.... The worst part is that this focus on research/PhDs got to a point where they were willing to water down training aka the "Holman pathway" where it wasn't clear they'd have enough experience to function in practice after residency. Last i checked rad onc was still a clinical specialty. You never hear about where many of these Holman graduates ended up....
 
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