contrarian

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Obviously I'm not a "shrink" but my personal opinion is that many traits are adaptive in particular situations. For instance, having histrionic traits is adaptive in Hollywood. Or having antisocial traits is adaptive in business (joke, don't kill me 🙂 ).

And I also believe that narcissistic traits are particularly adaptive in helping professions, specially in those "selfless" folks who are prone to burnouts. Then again, mental health professionals, particularly psychiatrists, can have tremendous power and influence over someone's life (as do other medical professionals like surgeons) so throw in a spoon of narcissism and a pinch of emotionally vulnerable and suggestible patient in the mix, and voila, you're doing more harm than good.
 
You are talking about the trait and not the disorder right?

Because the trait is in many ways just self confidence.
 
Manicsleep said:
You are talking about the trait and not the disorder right?

Because the trait is in many ways just self confidence.
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Just the trait. How do separate the trait from the disorder? Seems like a gray area.

How about this: narcissism + will-power = leadership ?
 
Pretty much everytime I've seen the Grammy or MTV movie awards, the general atmosphere of the crowd appeared to tilt on the histrionic.

Come to think of it, when I graduate from fellowship in the next few days, I'm going to kiss the other guy in my program. Sandra Bullock's set a trend.

Getting more serious, I agree with the above. What is considered acceptable in some situations and cultures is not in others. Narcissism is not self-confidence. It's actually often someone's own lack of self confidence expressed in a defensive manner. For these reasons, I do not think it lends to good leadership in most situations.

I do, however think, that in several cultures, narcissism could assist someone provided the other right elements are there. E.g. popular mean girls. Their popularity is often the result of narcissistic behaviors. While it might not exactly be beneficial to the group, it is beneficial to the individual. They can get away with it too because at that age, people's opinions are largely influenced by appearance and other superficial characteristics. This type of situation leads to no one pointing to the Emperor having no clothes.
 
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whopper said:
Getting more serious, I agree with the above. What is considered acceptable in some situations and cultures is not in others. Narcissism is not self-confidence. It's actually often someone's own lack of self confidence expressed in a defensive manner. For these reasons, I do not think it lends to good leadership in most situations./QUOTE]

Thank you. While I have the attention of you fine people, I would like to pose another question. Do you think that behavior patterns become more and more dysfuctional above a certain level of income? Perhaps playing into narcissism? I read a book about this once, I think it was called "The Golden Ghetto." http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Ghetto...r_1_16?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277088772&sr=8-16
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whopper said:
Getting more serious, I agree with the above. What is considered acceptable in some situations and cultures is not in others. Narcissism is not self-confidence. It's actually often someone's own lack of self confidence expressed in a defensive manner. For these reasons, I do not think it lends to good leadership in most situations.

I do, however think, that in several cultures, narcissism could assist someone provided the other right elements are there. E.g. popular mean girls. Their popularity is often the result of narcissistic behaviors. While it might not exactly be beneficial to the group, it is beneficial to the individual. They can get away with it too because at that age, people's opinions are largely influenced by appearance and other superficial characteristics. This type of situation leads to no one pointing to the Emperor having no clothes.
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I think we are discussing narcissistic traits as being adaptive. I think they can be perceived as self confidence (its irrelevant if the person is defensive inside) in many instances. I think some of the greatest athletes are very likely narcissistic. Being a member of a season ticket holding family since a very young age and playing sports until college, i think that narcissistic traits help a lot. Similar traits are seen in CEOs (along with antisocial as well).

The athletes/ceo's of today are the generals and chiefs of yesteryear. I think definitely there is an adaptive trait to narcissism.
They want to prove they are better and when they are, the results are amazing. They also keep want to do it over and over again...until Jordan tries a comeback with the wizards.
 
Manicsleep said:
I think we are discussing narcissistic traits as being adaptive. I think they can be perceived as self confidence (its irrelevant if the person is defensive inside) in many instances.
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I think there is a difference between "realistic" self-confidence, one that is reflective of accomplishments, and a narcissistic one. To maintain reality-based self-confidence one does not require as many defenses. For these folks, not everything is about them. Their "selves" are in the background.

When it comes to narcissism, there is sometimes a distinction made between grandiose and vulnerable subtype. The ones you refer to are perhaps more likely to be grandiose. Vulnerable narcissists have more fragile egos and have great difficulty maintaining a grandiose self as their defenses easily break down, making them tremendously vulnerable to shame, anxiety, and depression. Some psychologists suggest that most narcissists vacillate between grandiose and vulnerable states, so this is not a black and white distinction. However, I think it's safe to assume that successful athletes, CEOs, etc, spend more time in the grandiose state, and have powerful defenses in place.

Of course this is just one way of looking at it, and I know that narcissism has been conceptualized in many different ways.
 
I think we've entered a grey zone with the narcissism.

I'm not interpreting self-confidence as narcissism. There's a difference. There's a difference between a guy claiming to be a great athlete when in fact he is not vs. an athlete who knows he is good, so be knows he can demand a heck of a lot of money on his contract.

Self-confidence can appear narcissistic. A guy saying he is the best IMHO is not narcissistic if in fact he is the best, and he brings up this information in an appropriate manner.

Do you think that behavior patterns become more and more dysfuctional above a certain level of income?
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Income can affect the level of harm caused, but it depends on the situation. E.g. if a guy has lots of money, he can use the money to either accommodate to his patterns or get help. (E.g. a guy with OCPD can afford a therapist. Or because he's in a position of financial power, he can higher a maid to make sure his place is extra clean). In other cases, because the person has more resources they can cause more harm. (E.g. What happened at ENRON.)
 
whopper said:
I think we've entered a grey zone with the narcissism.

I'm not interpreting self-confidence as narcissism. There's a difference. There's a difference between a guy claiming to be a great athlete when in fact he is not vs. an athlete who knows he is good, so be knows he can demand a heck of a lot of money on his contract.

Self-confidence can appear narcissistic. A guy saying he is the best IMHO is not narcissistic if in fact he is the best, and he brings up this information in an appropriate manner.

Income can affect the level of harm caused, but it depends on the situation. E.g. if a guy has lots of money, he can use the money to either accommodate to his patterns or get help. (E.g. a guy with OCPD can afford a therapist. Or because he's in a position of financial power, he can higher a maid to make sure his place is extra clean). In other cases, because the person has more resources they can cause more harm. (E.g. What happened at ENRON.)
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Lets consider a basketball player who is very good. He takes shot after shot but is criticized because his team cant beat another team that plays well together. He adapts to play together a little more while still being in control and is completely dominating. He thinks he is so good that he could try another sport but fails miserably very early however still keeps trying for 2 years. Then has to go back to his original sport to redeem himself but then retires early because all of his demands are not met.
He later tries a comeback when he is clearly too old, often criticizing younger, better players when his own play is poor. When enshrined in the Hall of Fame, he gives an outlandish speech where he admonishes his high school coach.

I think thats is the narcissistic trait both when it is so advantageous and when it can hurt us a little.
Remember we all have these traits. Every single one of them. We can all be schizotypal, paranoid, antisocial, histrionic or dependent but for most people it is not a disorder but simply a trait that we use when we need but can also bite us when we aren't careful.
In the case of narcissism, it is the same. You can call it a defense mechanism but defense mechanisms can often be advantageous.

I think part of the grey area is that we have begun to associate the traits with the disorder a bit too much.
 
The case of ENRON is more interesting.

I think people have actually studied this phenomenon, where CEOs in large companies give themselves bigger checks no matter what. Kind of to prove that they belong there. I think the data indicated that people bought into it.

I wonder if this is freakonomics data? Oh well. I don't have the time to research it all out right now but it is some very interesting stuff.
 
I think thats is the narcissistic trait both when it is so advantageous and when it can hurt us a little.
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Agree. One can be narcissistic and depending on the situation, it can be advantageous. But overall, in the end, there still is a difference between self-confidence and narcissism, though it may be hard to differentiate between the two. There may also be a zone where one can be both.
 
whopper said:
Agree. One can be narcissistic and depending on the situation, it can be advantageous. But overall, in the end, there still is a difference between self-confidence and narcissism, though it may be hard to differentiate between the two. There may also be a zone where one can be both.
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What would you call over confidence?
 
Manicsleep said:
What would you call over confidence?
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Taylor and Brown have famously linked "positive illusions" to mental health. So over-confidence may be part of "healthy" confidence. In other words, confidence that is most adaptive is not purely realistic appraisal but with a pinch of positive illusions. One can also consider cognitive errors and cognitive-behavioral theories before deciding that over-confidence really is narcissism.

The way I usually distinguish narcissism from confidence and related concepts is how much the "self" is seen as the center of every situation the person faces. Like a wound, it needs to be constantly guarded. Some may feel over-confident in particular situations for various reasons, but is that part of a pattern, a pervasive and rigid one? The narcissistic self is like a black hole, pulling in and devouring everything around it and yet never satiated. Okay, I'm mixing psychoanalytic views with mythical elements, and that means I need to stop. :laugh:
 
Someone believing they are capable of doing something they are not.
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Would you call over confidence a delusion?
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A false belief has to be fixed to be delusion. But overconfidence is not what whopper states it is. It is simply having more confidence than the situation warrants. For example "Im going to hit a hole in one right here!" I am not very good at golf but I COULD hit a hole in one. So I am CAPABLE of it but its just unlikely.

The way I usually distinguish narcissism from confidence and related concepts is how much the "self" is seen as the center of every situation the person faces. Like a wound, it needs to be constantly guarded. Some may feel over-confident in particular situations for various reasons, but is that part of a pattern, a pervasive and rigid one? The narcissistic self is like a black hole, pulling in and devouring everything around it and yet never satiated. Okay, I'm mixing psychoanalytic views with mythical elements, and that means I need to stop. :laugh:
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I understand the concept of narcissism.
I think there is a problem with the way many of us are taught personality disorders. The problem is that people try too hard to equate the trait associated with them with the disorder itself. As if it has to be a disabling thing where you can still function. It can be, but it doesnt HAVE to be.

These things work on a spectrum and the traits, when mild, can be quite positive and are actually necessary for us to be successful and socially interactive beings. This is true of confidence and narcissism.

I don't want to get into freudian residual narcisissm or healthy narcissism but I think it is pointless to say that self confidence is NOT based upon narcissistic traits. If you can say that with total confidence then show me the money.

I think really its how you frame it.
 
Yes, I mostly agree with you. In fact, many concepts can be seen as existing on a continuum. The same can apply to reality and delusion. They are not as black and white as we would like them to be. And concepts like confidence and NPD are usually defined in relation to function and adaptation. We are not talking about absolute or objective "truth" here. What may be seen as a confident attitude in one society/culture, may be perceived as cocky in another.
 
Would you call over confidence a delusion?
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A delusion is supposed to a belief that is not based on reality outside the cultural norm.

Overconfidence is common in society, and thus within the cultural norm.

delusion. But overconfidence is not what whopper states it is. It is simply having more confidence than the situation warrants. For example "Im going to hit a hole in one right here!" I am not very good at golf but I COULD hit a hole in one. So I am CAPABLE of it but its just unlikely.
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Agree and your explanation is better explained than mine.
 
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