Cornell vs. Yale

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

Hi Everyone! I'm having a very difficult time choosing between these schools and would appreciate any advice. Let me know if I'm missing anything - thank you

A little bit about me:

- FGLI and URM, so finances and being at a diverse school/city are extremely important to me.
- Interested in pursing neurosurgery (significant personal/scientific experiences) and academic medicine.
- Interested in health equity research, underserved communities, and mentorship/advocacy for disadvantaged students interested in medicine
- Hobbies mostly consist of sports, nature/outdoor activities, and going out
- I'm from CA and would love to match and ultimately practice there.


Similarities between schools:
- opportunities to work with the underserved
- diverse communities/patient populations
- probably no difference in match outcomes? (NSGY included)


Cornell (3k loans/yr ~ total 12k debt )
Pros

• Cheapest option, although my loans/yr will probably increase due to a sibling graduating college this upcoming year. Unsure how much my loans will increase but total debt might be closer to 15-20k
• NYC - Incredibly diverse city with endless opportunities for sports/entertainment/social life and have a few distant friends living here
• NYP hospital system (strong clinical training?)
• Solid NSGY Department / MSKCC Brain Tumor Center (my main research focus)
• Easier to fly in and out of
• Really vibed with the students at second look (more social), but I'm not sure whether to put too much stock into this

Cons

• Graded Clerkships and AOA - my biggest con as I've read clerkship grading/AOA can be pretty subjective and I'm interested in a competitive specialty so could lead to a very stressful experience
• Might have too much fun being in nyc // finding balance
• Potentially slightly less prestigious than Yale - although I don't think this influences match outcomes, and I have no interest in pivoting from medicine in the future.
• If I take a research year and don't receive funding (competitive), I'd have to take out ~20k in loans to cover my living expenses.

Yale (10k loans/yr ~ total 40k debt)
Pros

• Total debt after 4 years will probably be closer to 25k (their budget for rent/food is out of touch lol ie I'm frugal)
• Research year would cost me 0-5k.
• Yale System - not having to worry about honoring all of my rotations + no AOA which is of course less stressful and could ultimately benefit me when it comes to matching. Incredible flexibility for getting involved with research/ECs.
• Better reputation in medicine than Cornell (?)
• College system might provide more support - although overall Yale seems pretty hands-off with its students
• Research year would cost me 0-5k.

Cons

• New Haven, although it was better than I expected. I'm not from a big city, but I do think I would enjoy NYC much more given its size and culture.
• Hospital System not great but I'm not sure this affects me too much as a medical student.
• Neurosurgery Department weaker than Cornell.
• A pain to travel out of by air (ie visiting CA)
• Nervous there may not be enough direction in the Yale System for me (falling through the cracks)
• Didn't vibe as well with admitted students - seemed less social and more academically focused - but I think I could find my pockets of people and this may be good for me career wise.

Summary: My dilemma in choosing between Cornell and Yale really comes down to Cornell's graded clerkships + AOA vs the Yale System, and NYC vs New Haven. I don't think I need to be in NYC to be happy for the next 4/5 years (especially since it might be a more stressful experience at Cornell), but I'm unsure if I'll thrive in the Yale System, find my people, and enjoy New Haven. As noted above, the finances are pretty similar, whether I take a research year or not, so I don't see it as the deciding factor but lmk if you think otherwise. Thanks again!

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[JukeBoxHeroo]

Congrats! But also, where are you getting that Yale has a better reputation than Cornell in medicine? They are equivalent. Both rank about T10. From what you are saying, Cornell seems like the winner. 0 debt, NYC, and strong NSGY department.

 

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

Congrats! But also, where are you getting that Yale has a better reputation than Cornell in medicine? They are equivalent. Both rank about T10. From what you are saying, Cornell seems like the winner. 0 debt, NYC, and strong NSGY department.

Thank you! That is mostly me being a naive pre-med reading past threads tbh so I appreciate your clarification and input!

 

[sparky21]

Agree about Cornell, you also said you value diversity and the patient population at Cornell and within NYC will be more diverse than New Haven. Plus it’s free!

 

[MercifulCamper]

I definitely feel like 40 K of debt is worth it for P/F Clerkships, no AOA, and such a chill learning environment. It may not seem like a drop in the bucket right now, but if you are gunning for NSGY, you will be able to pay that off quick when you are an attending. Plus you will literally be 7 years into PSLF by the time you finish residency if you are interested in that pathway. Both Cornell and Yale seem to match NSGY equivalently - I don't think either school will offer an edge over each other.

Lastly, New Haven is actually pretty diverse. There is a decently large Latino and Black population there. As a city, it is pretty representative of the diversity in the United States. Of course, NYC is the most diverse city in the world but what patients are you actually working with at Cornell? My understanding was Cornell's patient population was more affluent given its location in NYC than say, NYU or Columbia?

I wouldn't bother with Northwestern given the debt and it DEFINITELY does not see the patient population you want to see.

 

[deleted1065184]

Congrats OP, you definitely cannot lose either way. I'm typically a "follow the money" type of person, but $40k is truly nothing for what *any* physician will make in the future. You should view Cornell and Yale as peer institutions. Yale has an edge on quality of life for sure, and (as mentioned earlier), New Haven is actually far more diverse than most people realize. Also, it's just a train ride from NYC whenever you wanna visit. Very underrated city, imo. Cornell's actual medical school is a bit more diverse than Yale's, but jot by a lot. But I gotta say, as a student at a school with P/F clerkships, it is truly a gamechanger.

 

[Bizarre_Animation]

I just want to add on that personally I think Yale has better opportunities to do work with underserved populations. NYC is def more diverse, but I think the location of Cornell in the Upper East Side and being affiliated with very specialty oriented institutions makes it slightly less conducive. When researching these schools I felt harder pressed to find people that were doing similar work to what I wanted to do at Cornell compared to Yale. At the same time, it is NYC so you could go to a different institution to work with people on the things you want to do. If you want to do neurosurgery, I'm sure theres a lot of benefit from NYP and the Tri-I.

Congrats on the amazing options, and good luck!

 

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

Thank you @MercifulCamper @I'mInDer! @Bizarre_Animation for the clarification regarding the diversity of New Haven and the ability to work with the underserved in either location. I'll do some more research, but this seems to be a non-factor at this point given this info.

If I can realistically match NSGY just as well in either location, then it seems my last issue comes down to 40k debt (definitely worth it) for the benefits of P/F all 4 years + no AOA vs my assumption that I would enjoy NYC much more than New Haven. I don't think I can truly appreciate the former yet given my lack of exposure to speaking with med students, but it seems P/F all 4 year is a HUGE plus. Would anyone be willing to expand on why that is? I know it seems pretty obvious, but it would help me appreciate its value. Thank you all for your help!

 

[MercifulCamper]

Thank you @MercifulCamper @I'mInDer! @Bizarre_Animation for the clarification regarding the diversity of New Haven and the ability to work with the underserved in either location. I'll do some more research, but this seems to be a non-factor at this point given this info.

If I can realistically match NSGY just as well in either location, then it seems my last issue comes down to 40k debt (definitely worth it) for the benefits of P/F all 4 years + no AOA vs my assumption that I would enjoy NYC much more than New Haven. I don't think I can truly appreciate the former yet given my lack of exposure to speaking with med students, but it seems P/F all 4 year is a HUGE plus. Would anyone be willing to expand on why that is? I know it seems pretty obvious, but it would help me appreciate its value. Thank you all for your help!

Well Yale is even more unique than most P/F clerkship schools because it doesn't have shelf exams at the end of their clerkships. I have a friend at HMS that joked in jest that Yale is optional med school lol.

Well for starters clerkship grades are mostly a joke. They are super subjective. Removing that subjectivity arguably makes things more equitable for everyone.

I go to a P/F clerkship school (not Yale or HMS) and you basically avoid having to kiss your resident's and attending's behind to sweet talk your way into honors for rotations and you don't feel like you have to bring cookies everyday to get that oh so sweet "H". It becomes less of a popularity contest. It's a real "pick me" game to get honors at some places.

You also don't have to deal with the repercussions of looking lazy to the sweaty med students that decide to pre round on their and YOUR patients at 4:00 AM instead of 5 AM and stay until 8 PM even though you've been dismissed at 6 PM. You can do your expected hours and be done with it, go home and study, and have just a bit more of a life during the tough core clerkship year. Even if you have a sweaty med student on your team you can just put in the normal effort because at the end of the day there is no honors - you just get a pass.

In regards to AOA, that honor society is also a joke. It is super inequitable as well and a lot of places that have it see super high racial disparities in who gets inducted into it. They value certain activities (research mostly) over community service/underserved outreach work to get AOA - although this is changing at certain places. I go to a school where there is no AOA and its really nice not to have people potentially putting other people down so they can be more likely to get AOA.

Ultimately going to a school with AOA and H/HP/P/F clerkships is going to promote a more competitive, less enjoyable environment than those without. This is why I vote you go to Yale. Just remember that most schools are actually not P/F all 4 years. Your Sub-I's will be graded and you can stand out and honor on your NSGY/Surgery sub Is.

Some will counter me, and say well OP wants to do NSGY and they need to be gunning for AOA and honors in everything if they really want an edge in such a competitive specialty. But I will say it doesn't seem to matter for Yale, HMS, Duke, UCSF, Stanford, Hopkins students because they seem to be matching these specialties just fine. If anything going to Yale will free up more time to do things like research or community work that you are interested in that may make your application stand out even more. You've earned the luxury of going to a P/F clerkship school with minimal debt. I would take up Yale's offer.

 

[deleted1065184]

Thank you @MercifulCamper @I'mInDer! @Bizarre_Animation for the clarification regarding the diversity of New Haven and the ability to work with the underserved in either location. I'll do some more research, but this seems to be a non-factor at this point given this info.

If I can realistically match NSGY just as well in either location, then it seems my last issue comes down to 40k debt (definitely worth it) for the benefits of P/F all 4 years + no AOA vs my assumption that I would enjoy NYC much more than New Haven. I don't think I can truly appreciate the former yet given my lack of exposure to speaking with med students, but it seems P/F all 4 year is a HUGE plus. Would anyone be willing to expand on why that is? I know it seems pretty obvious, but it would help me appreciate its value. Thank you all for your help!

It's exactly what you think it is. Unless you're just inherently a highly neurotic student, so much of the stress disappears. I went through all my clerkships with very low stress, truly just doing my best to learn as much as I could. For me, personally, clerkship year was actually easier than my pre-clerkship coursework lol. Never even thought about what other students were doing because I knew it didn't matter. Went home whenever residents dismissed me early...without a second thought.

And I really cannot stress enough how much harder it is to fail than it is to get honors. If you show up where you're supposed to when you're supposed to, give good effort, and pass your shelf exam (which isn't a thing at Yale lol), you will pass your clerkships.

There is tremendous subjectivity associated with clerkship grading, so you won't ever have to worry about going above and beyond just to get an above average grade. Also, it makes your class more calm and collaborative, which translated to a better social experience too.

 

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

Bumping this as I'm still trying to make this decision and would love to hear more thoughts. Thank you everyone!

 

[Egg-Benedict]

People on SDN usually tell pre-meds to highly value P/F, but I'll give a different perspective:

In talking to my friends at top schools with graded clerkships, pretty much all of them have reported that they like the opportunity to distinguish themselves and didn't seem to think the grading introduced all that much stress. Obviously, if you do really well you would love it and if you do really poorly you would hate it, but it seems like everyone I've spoken to likes the grading system that they have.

Another thing to consider is that, with P/F, residencies are going to place more weight on your research, LOR, etc. That could be good or bad, depending on your strengths and how good you are at making connections.

Also, I know one of the deans of a top med school, and I recently spoke with them about the graded clinicals. They said that residency directors pretty universally are wanting grades, and that a lot of other top schools are going to change back to graded in the next two years. That surprised me, but I suppose it makes sense.

So, when I was applying, I thought P/F was a huge plus, but knowing what I know now, I would say I'm pretty neutral on it and I definitely wouldn't pay more for it.

 

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

People on SDN usually tell pre-meds to highly value P/F, but I'll give a different perspective:

In talking to my friends at top schools with graded clerkships, pretty much all of them have reported that they like the opportunity to distinguish themselves and didn't seem to think the grading introduced all that much stress. Obviously, if you do really well you would love it and if you do really poorly you would hate it, but it seems like everyone I've spoken to likes the grading system that they have.

Another thing to consider is that, with P/F, residencies are going to place more weight on your research, LOR, etc. That could be good or bad, depending on your strengths and how good you are at making connections.

Also, I know one of the deans of a top med school, and I recently spoke with them about the graded clinicals. They said that residency directors pretty universally are wanting grades, and that a lot of other top schools are going to change back to graded in the next two years. That surprised me, but I suppose it makes sense.

So, when I was applying, I thought P/F was a huge plus, but knowing what I know now, I would say I'm pretty neutral on it and I definitely wouldn't pay more for it.

Thank you for providing another perspective on clerkship grading!

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

Yale M3 here!

I think everyone's already said some pretty valuable things so I won't repeat anything. Just here to address some things you've said about Yale:

- Social students: I think you probably just met a certain pocket of students at second look. There's a wide range of people here and most are very social (the classes below me even more so than mine). Also - general rule: second look vibes are not perfect to go by in general because no one is acting like themselves. I make sure to say this to people who both loved and hated Yale second look "because of the people".

- "Bad" hospital system: I also had this misconception when I was deciding. The hospital is huge, we see everything - some people come here from Boston and NYC to see certain services. The patient diversity is immense. Presby is more prestigious, but Yale is more than enough for medical school and I would have zero reservations about doing fellowship or residency here too if my family wasn't in the Midwest/South. Should not be a final decider.

- Clerkship grading: You do not want clerkship grading. This is a strong opinion I have on this matter. Happy to expand but I would basically say what people said above - it's incredibly unfair unless it's more about shelf exams and then in that case it is incredibly stressful (studying after a 14 hour day in the hospital).

I have some friends at Cornell and they love the city but they do feel pretty distracted (n=3, take with grain of salt, talk to real Cornell students and try to get ones that will be honest/help you realize if going to school in NYC will be a good personality fit for YOU). I turned down a NYC option because I was afraid of the same thing. I like how New Haven has access to bigger cities and feels "big enough" - I'm not bored when I'm here but I love the option to go elsewhere easily. I went to a smaller school in a big city on the west coast and it was great for undergrad but I think a big city for med school would actually not be amazing for me. I like New Haven's size and it seems to work for a big variety of people. I also felt, and this might resonate with you, that I wasn't going to be able to enjoy NYC much as a med student so I would just be stressed out and over-stimulated for no reason when I could easily access it when I wanted from a chiller city. But this is just my thought process for me - not a rule for everyone.

Last comments, Yale matches supremely well to California. Excellent relationships with UCSF, Stanford, UCLA, UCSD and also regularly send people to USC/Cedars. Good for you! Also, Yale Med is co-located with everything else Yale - all the graduate programs, undergrad stuff etc so we get a lot of resources and cool opportunities. Big advantage in my book.

All that being said, if you want to be in NYC, I don't think Cornell would be a bad choice. Congratulations on having great options.

 

[HouseMusicAllLifeLong]

@hydroflaskhomie this was immensely helpful, thank you! Good to hear that the social and hospital factors are not really an issue, and especially that New Haven is "big enough" for the day to day experience. If you're willing, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whether clinical grades/AOA play a significant role in the match process and whether YMS students feel they need to take a fifth year to be competitive w/o grades? I'm sure the former is a much more difficult topic to discuss so please feel free to focus only on the latter issue if you have the time Thank you again!

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

I think if clinical grades/AOA played a big role in the match process you’d see a bigger difference in match lists between Yale/Harvard/UCSF etc and the schools that are on the same playing field. In my opinion, the match lists are indistinguishable except for quirks like a lot of Yale students going to California or Penn keeping its own students etc etc. Of course I’m biased but I’m grateful to be able to distinguish myself through avenues like research and community advocacy.

And nope. I’m going to be applying with no research year into a competitive specialty and have no concerns and felt no pressure to take one. You will see nationwide a trend towards people taking 5th years in specialties like ortho, derm, neurosurg, plastics. Most people at Yale who want these things will take a fifth year but I think that’s understandable given nationwide trends and how easy it is to be fully funded here. It’s not a necessity, just a function of how we’re supported to do whatever we want to do here.