Correcting masters level providers

[GradStudent2020]

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There can be overlap. Do predoctoral internship applications still count assessment and intervention hours accrued in master's training? If not, they used to. The problem isn't that the training is impossible at the master's level, but rather that there is no consistent standard for master's training. By contrast, all APA-accredited programs provide coursework and supervised experience in psychological assessment. A program cannot be accredited without these features, since assessment is a core competency. We can debate what constitutes "adequate," and some contend that APA's requirements are too lax/minimal, but we know that accredited doctoral programs provide a certain minimum standard of training in assessment.

What you described, i.e.,



...sounds unusual and is probably not the norm. But what do I know? It's difficult to know because master's programs in psychology are not held to any set of consistent standards of clinical training. Even if they were, it doesn't stop a given program from going above and beyond the minimum requirements. That doesn't equate to a higher level of training for licensure purposes, however. To use an imperfect analogy, a physician assistant might acquire a very high level of skill and proficiency in a particular area, but their skill in x area cannot be the basis for an unrestricted medical license. Unlike certification, licensure is fundamentally permissive, and that's why the least restrictive licenses are given to those with the highest and broadest level of training.

My point is that we have some idea of what kinds of minimum competencies go along with an accredited doctoral program, whereas master's level training has not been subject to the same kind of standardization, which makes licensure and scope of practice issues difficult to sort out. APA has decided to get into the business of accrediting master's level psychology programs only very recently, so we will likely see some changes down the road.

You can your Master’s level info into your APPIC application.

 

[jtpesek]

There can be overlap. Do predoctoral internship applications still count assessment and intervention hours accrued in master's training? If not, they used to. The problem isn't that the training is impossible at the master's level, but rather that there is no consistent standard for master's training. By contrast, all APA-accredited programs provide coursework and supervised experience in psychological assessment. A program cannot be accredited without these features, since assessment is a core competency. We can debate what constitutes "adequate," and some contend that APA's requirements are too lax/minimal, but we know that accredited doctoral programs provide a certain minimum standard of training in assessment.

What you described, i.e.,



...sounds unusual and is probably not the norm. But what do I know? It's difficult to know because master's programs in psychology are not held to any set of consistent standards of clinical training. Even if they were, it doesn't stop a given program from going above and beyond the minimum requirements. That doesn't equate to a higher level of training for licensure purposes, however. To use an imperfect analogy, a physician assistant might acquire a very high level of skill and proficiency in a particular area, but their skill in x area cannot be the basis for an unrestricted medical license. Unlike certification, licensure is fundamentally permissive, and that's why the least restrictive licenses are given to those with the highest and broadest level of training.

My point is that we have some idea of what kinds of minimum competencies go along with an accredited doctoral program, whereas master's level training has not been subject to the same kind of standardization, which makes licensure and scope of practice issues difficult to sort out. APA has decided to get into the business of accrediting master's level psychology programs only very recently, so we will likely see some changes down the road.

That makes perfect sense- I like your analogy


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[jtpesek]

I don’t disagree with any of this. Thanks for sharing your thought process. My experience has been that state boards have minimum training standards for the licensure that allows for assessment, those training standards are not consistently present within Master’s level programs.

Agreed on my end also


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[jtpesek]

This has been my favorite thread to interact with on the forum so far - I also am always pleased to be among professionals who are able to discuss things - shared ideas or not - without the thread unraveling into a circus side-show.

You all have made my week!!




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[counselor2b]

FWIW....That is not the "typical" training in a counseling program, at least based on my experience previously lecturing in such a program and reviewing training guidelines for one of the state legislatures and their licensing board.

That was my experience as well in my master’s program. We learned enough to be able to understand the report and communicate the information to a lay person with some authority, but in no way learned how to choose which assessment(s)or battery would be most appropriate for said issue or how to interpret the information based on raw data for the advanced assessments/tests. At the masters level, we generally only take one class dedicated to psychometrics and assessment, which in my program was really more to just inform us of the different categories of tests and assessments that exist, how to digest them, understanding the importance of validity and reliability and to remember that they are only one of many tools to use. This exposure was in no way adequate to become competent, beyond basic screeners. I think it comes down to not knowing what you don’t know and having just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I recognize that this is just my experience but this seems to be fairly consistent with my colleagues over the years, whether they are LPC’s, LCSW’s or LMFT’s.

 

[GradStudent2020]

That was my experience as well in my master’s program. We learned enough to be able to understand the report and communicate the information to a lay person with some authority, but in no way learned how to choose which assessment(s)or battery would be most appropriate for said issue or how to interpret the information based on raw data for the advanced assessments/tests. At the masters level, we generally only take one class dedicated to psychometrics and assessment, which in my program was really more to just inform us of the different categories of tests and assessments that exist, how to digest them, understanding the importance of validity and reliability and to remember that they are only one of many tools to use. This exposure was in no way adequate to become competent, beyond basic screeners. I think it comes down to not knowing what you don’t know and having just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I recognize that this is just my experience but this seems to be fairly consistent with my colleagues over the years, whether they are LPC’s, LCSW’s or LMFT’s.

Honestly, what you are describing is less assessment exposure any of my colleagues have ever reported. Granted I haven’t talked to all of them about their education/training so I will take your word for it. Most of my colleagues have been LPA’s, LSSP’s, or LPC’s. I’ve also worked in settings that focus primarily on assessment (versus primarily on therapy), or in departments that housed assessment and therapy. It makes sense that individuals with a stronger assessment background would be in these settings.

Thanks for sharing your experience. There’s clearly a lot of variability!

ETA: I take that back. My LPC supervisor post-graduation has no assessment training.

 

[AbnormalPsych]

I’m curious what you believe occurs (assessment training wise) at the doctoral level that can’t also occur at the Master’s level?

For me, I would think time and depth. For example, I I still feel incompetent at times even after multiple years in assessment coursework (I tihnk like 6 formal courses over 3 years?), 3 years of assessment practicums and supervision, and assessment heavy predoc internship and postdocs. I couldn't imagine only doing 2 years of this and practicing. But, that being said I do know several masters level providers (school psychs) working in assessment heavy roles and doing great.

In my original post, the masters level providers I mentioned have zero formal assessment training. They focused on therapy. They are also not conducting any assessments themselves, but hearing assessment results presented at team meetings/case conferences or reading the postdoc reports in charts and then making their own interpretations and decisions, as if the impressions and recs sections were not even there.

 

[GradStudent2020]

For me, I would think time and depth. For example, I I still feel incompetent at times even after multiple years in assessment coursework (I tihnk like 6 formal courses over 3 years?), 3 years of assessment practicums and supervision, and assessment heavy predoc internship and postdocs. I couldn't imagine only doing 2 years of this and practicing. But, that being said I do know several masters level providers (school psychs) working in assessment heavy roles and doing great.

In my original post, the masters level providers I mentioned have zero formal assessment training. They focused on therapy. They are also not conducting any assessments themselves, but hearing assessment results presented at team meetings/case conferences or reading the postdoc reports in charts and then making their own interpretations and decisions, as if the impressions and recs sections were not even there.

That seems very in line with what my friends/colleagues with or working towards board certification in Neuropsych receive.

I firmly believe you cannot ever learn it all in this field, I’m definitely still learning after 2 (almost 3) degrees and over a decade of education, supervised experience, and hundreds of integrated reports (thousands?!). I don’t think I felt incompetent after 3 years but I still consult and ask for supervision frequently, especially when working with new populations.

Individuals with no (or limited) formal assessment training should not be interpreting test data.

 

[cara susanna]

Honestly, I have a PhD in clinical psychology with all of the requisite assessment and statistics coursework, completed an assessment-only practicum, TAed our doctoral assessment courses, and had two rotations with assessment components on internship. I STILL often feel underqualified and seek out consultation when I'm interpreting tests. I can't even imagine doing it with less training than I have.

 

[jtpesek]

That seems very in line with what my friends/colleagues with or working towards board certification in Neuropsych receive.

I firmly believe you cannot ever learn it all in this field, I’m definitely still learning after 2 (almost 3) degrees and over a decade of education, supervised experience, and hundreds of integrated reports (thousands?!). I don’t think I felt incompetent after 3 years but I still consult and ask for supervision frequently, especially when working with new populations.

Individuals with no (or limited) formal assessment training should not be interpreting test data.

At the end of the day - my question, to a treating clinician of any kind acting outside their scope OR knowing there is a better person than themselves to provide that service - is “how is this providing best care to the patient?” And the answer is that it is NOT. We (my office) cannot afford to allow egos and such to expose those seeking our help to incorrect information, shoddy care and misappropriation of their trust. Which also exposes US as owners to the repercussions of those actions: sanctions, shut downs, audits, etc.

Thank you all who have and continue to pursue excellence to your craft and know there are those of us who depend on folks like you for referrals and would and do support you!

If we can just get that course... “STAY IN YOUR OWN LANE: The need to know what you do not know: the art of proper referrals”

Has a nice ring, yeah?


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