Cosmic Therapy?

[The Everglow]

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Alright, so I posted this in the psychology forum, but it only generated a few opinions, so I thought I'd ask you psychiatrists!

Over the last number of months, I've been watching a whole lot of nature documentaries, reading a lot about evolutionary biology and psychology, and I just watched the first two episodes in Carl Sagan's "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" series from 1980.

Anyway, fusing this with my interest in psych has generated a lot of thoughts about what we are as humans. It is undeniable how small we are in the scope of the universe. And indeed, we are a statistical probability in the face of such enormity. As a 'thinking animal' this at first seems very distressing. However, now I find it unbelievably comforting knowing that the elements and atoms that I am comprised of will ultimately be recycled; just like the stars, and indeed galaxies, we form, live, die, and are reborn.

I'm sort of a neurotic guy, but I've found myself way more 'chill' lately, and I truly believe that looking at my place in the cosmos has influenced this change.

Anyway! The crux of my question is this: are there any schools of therapy, or psychology that are based on this somewhat 'Vulcan' or highly logical, cosmic, and scientific notion of what we truly 'are' as homo sapiens? Would this be existential psychotherapy? Humanistic? Or something altogether different? Does this even exist? Surely as we learn more and more about what we are, and our place in the universe, this will influence our psychology, no?

I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Cheers!

 

[ShrunkenHeads]

Sounds like you're thinking more along the lines of philosophy, but I'd rather have one of our friends here clear that up.

I'd encourage you to read The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence by none other than Carl Sagan. It discusses how our brains have developed over several millions of years, pre-dating human life itself and offers compelling information on the origins of intelligence, including of course that of our own and how human brains simply add another "layer" of intelligence, in addition to earlier life.

Cosmos is a fantastic series btw. I never had a chance to finish it all, but thanks for the reminder.

 

[digitlnoize]

I kind of see where you're going and would like to know the answer as well. I suspect the answer is: "that doesn't exist"...but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful.

I, for one, am going to work on developing "Playlist Therapy," whereby the therapist attempts to motivate change by making the patient a "mix tape" of music chosen to inspire them to adopt a chosen mood. For example, if someone is very anxious, you could make them a "chill out" mix tape, with Sigur Ros, Classical Music, and Enya. I know music therapy is used a lot in certain circumstances, but most of what I've seen has been about simply using it has a "fun" activity, not as a vehicle to motivate a change in behavior, which it certainly is capable of.

I recently worked with a great doctor who plays piano, and used music as a tool to form a therapeutic alliance with certain patients. He recounted one particularly difficult patient who was non-compliant with treatment, and just generally difficult to work with for everyone on the inpatient unit...until the doctor played piano at his weekly music group and the patient sang along with the songs. From that point on, the patient and the doc bonded, and he was able to open that door enough to really start treatment.

If anyone knows more than I do (which is very, very little) about therapy along these lines, I'd love to hear it. To me, it's just something I've been wondering about since I'm a musician, and since that doctor brought it up a few weeks ago.

Love Cosmos though. Great book and series (which is available on Hulu, I think). Sagan was a genius. Medicine (and Psychiatry, in particular) could really use someone like him to spread awareness of our fields, like he did for space/science.

 

[loveoforganic]

I kind of see where you're going and would like to know the answer as well. I suspect the answer is: "that doesn't exist"...but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful.

I, for one, am going to work on developing "Playlist Therapy," whereby the therapist attempts to motivate change by making the patient a "mix tape" of music chosen to inspire them to adopt a chosen mood. For example, if someone is very anxious, you could make them a "chill out" mix tape, with Sigur Ros, Classical Music, and Enya. I know music therapy is used a lot in certain circumstances, but most of what I've seen has been about simply using it has a "fun" activity, not as a vehicle to motivate a change in behavior, which it certainly is capable of.

I recently worked with a great doctor who plays piano, and used music as a tool to form a therapeutic alliance with certain patients. He recounted one particularly difficult patient who was non-compliant with treatment, and just generally difficult to work with for everyone on the inpatient unit...until the doctor played piano at his weekly music group and the patient sang along with the songs. From that point on, the patient and the doc bonded, and he was able to open that door enough to really start treatment.

If anyone knows more than I do (which is very, very little) about therapy along these lines, I'd love to hear it. To me, it's just something I've been wondering about since I'm a musician, and since that doctor brought it up a few weeks ago.

Love Cosmos though. Great book and series (which is available on Hulu, I think). Sagan was a genius. Medicine (and Psychiatry, in particular) could really use someone like him to spread awareness of our fields, like he did for space/science.

Music therapy is actually it's own independent field - I'm sure there is a LOT of literature out there on various things

http://www.musictherapy.org/assets/1/7/MT_Mental_Health_2006.pdf

 

[michaelrack]

However, now I find it unbelievably comforting knowing that the elements and atoms that I am comprised of will ultimately be recycled; just like the stars, and indeed galaxies, we form, live, die, and are reborn.

I'm sort of a neurotic guy, but I've found myself way more 'chill' lately, and I truly believe that looking at my place in the cosmos has influenced this change.


I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Cheers!

Sounds like you are experiencing Freud's oceanic feeling

 

[digitlnoize]

Music therapy is actually it's own independent field - I'm sure there is a LOT of literature out there on various things

http://www.musictherapy.org/assets/1/7/MT_Mental_Health_2006.pdf

Yeah, I know...but what little I've seen of music therapy so far (and it's very little) has been largely unimpressive to me. Mostly, I've seen it used as a group activity, sitting as a group tapping on drums, and asking, "how do you feel when you hit the drum." I've also heard of music being used for relaxation, but it seems like it's the type of stuff you'd hear in a New Age store with waves, seagulls, and pan flute...not real music that real people would listen to and identify with. Not at all like what I have in mind.

I feel like I'm probably short-changing the field, which is why I was hoping someone here could fill me in on what I'm missing. It's certainly on my list of things I want to look into.

Finally, I know there are music therapists who do this, but I think physicians are really missing out by not using music more in their practices. Music remains one of the most ancient and basic methods of human communication, the true "universal language," and I think we are missing something by ignoring its power.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Yeah, I know...but what little I've seen of music therapy so far (and it's very little) has been largely unimpressive to me.

If I hear a bunch of inpatients singing "I Believe I Can Fly," I think I'm going to burst into tears laughing. The "I may have schizophrenia, but I can still sing songs written by pedophiles" is just a little too Cyanide and Happiness for me.

The one place where I've been REALLY impressed w/ music therapy is on the consult service at our children's hospital, mostly for kids with lots of pain. We have at least one therapist who can do quite a bit with a nylon string guitar and a rudimentary fingerstyle pattern.

 

[zenman]

I've had sessions with both these guys. First one in both individual therapy session and for 3 hours or more in a group where he would stand over one person at a time and drum with a big ***** drum. Pretty neat...

2nd guy took care of an issue I've had all my life just by having me to "crazy" stuff!

http://www.healingdrummer.com

http://shakingmedicine.com

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Identifying and encouraging healthy spirituality is always a good thing.

 

[ShrunkenHeads]

Nvm.

 

[digitlnoize]

Found this interesting article: http://www.boston.com/Boston/dailyd...performance/YGEJ1sRyoksuFmHK6EK8rO/index.html

Going to look up this place...

Edit: nevermind. Strange place...not even remotely what I'm looking for...

http://brainmusictreatment.com/

These people get it: http://www.collegenet.com/elect/app/app?service=external/Forum&sp=35132

 

[Ibid]

I feel like I'm probably short-changing the field, which is why I was hoping someone here could fill me in on what I'm missing. It's certainly on my list of things I want to look into.
.

Not exactly what you are after, but might be of interest.

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=432

http://www.bamt.org/

Sadly like art therapists most of them are likely to be a bit "flakey". Not always a bad thing. A case of caveat emptor I suppose.

EDIT: Arts Therapies Forensic Conference looks interesting. http://www.bamt.org/DB/events/arts-therapies-forensic-conference.html

Rampton seems to into this in a big way.

​

'Developing 'context specific' treatment.'. [FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]Group cognitive analytic music therapy ( g-camt): A mixed methods, controlled feasibility trail at Rampton high secure hospital.
..[FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]Stella Compton Dickinson ..[FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]is a UKCP registered, accredited Cognitive Analytic Therapist and a HPC registered Music Therapist with approved supervisor status. Clinical Research Lead in Arts Therapies at Rampton National High Secure Hospital, UK. ..
[FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]..
[FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]
..

 

[digitlnoize]

If I hear a bunch of inpatients singing "I Believe I Can Fly," I think I'm going to burst into tears laughing. The "I may have schizophrenia, but I can still sing songs written by pedophiles" is just a little too Cyanide and Happiness for me.

That was so funny I lol'd at work today and looked like a total goober.

Not exactly what you are after, but might be of interest.

Thanks for the links Ibid. This seems like the kind of stuff that's been more my experience (again, very limited) with music therapy.

I'm really looking for musical adjuncts that a psychiatrist could rx that the patient could do at home on their own as part of their therapy.

Someone feeling down with little motivation might actually benefit from a few rounds of "I Believe I Can Fly", lol...

 

[Ibid]

I'm really looking for musical adjuncts that a psychiatrist could rx that the patient could do at home on their own as part of their therapy.

I think you are probably identifying a gap in services although I do know of some community music projects where people can pay a nominal sum just to spend the day playing with music "gear" and generally messing about with "stuff". You can trust any mental health service to turn something that is just fun into a grind. A sort of midas touch in reverse.

I do think you are touching on the problem with all of these so called therapies.

Art therapy is done by people who are artists first and like working with people who like art. Not people for whom nothing else is working or for whom it seems appropriate. The same is true with music therapy I expect. (in the main).

Cosmic therapy is going to suffer from the same problem. I'm not sure that physics lessons is going to be something that the average person is going to appreciate.😴

I wonder how those sessions would work out with your average creationist. Could be fun if nothing else.

 

[Atilla]

Alright, so I posted this in the psychology forum, but it only generated a few opinions, so I thought I'd ask you psychiatrists!

Over the last number of months, I've been watching a whole lot of nature documentaries, reading a lot about evolutionary biology and psychology, and I just watched the first two episodes in Carl Sagan's "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" series from 1980.

Anyway, fusing this with my interest in psych has generated a lot of thoughts about what we are as humans. It is undeniable how small we are in the scope of the universe. And indeed, we are a statistical probability in the face of such enormity. As a 'thinking animal' this at first seems very distressing. However, now I find it unbelievably comforting knowing that the elements and atoms that I am comprised of will ultimately be recycled; just like the stars, and indeed galaxies, we form, live, die, and are reborn.

I'm sort of a neurotic guy, but I've found myself way more 'chill' lately, and I truly believe that looking at my place in the cosmos has influenced this change.

Anyway! The crux of my question is this: are there any schools of therapy, or psychology that are based on this somewhat 'Vulcan' or highly logical, cosmic, and scientific notion of what we truly 'are' as homo sapiens? Would this be existential psychotherapy? Humanistic? Or something altogether different? Does this even exist? Surely as we learn more and more about what we are, and our place in the universe, this will influence our psychology, no?

I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Cheers!

Very interesting observation Everglow, I had a very similar experience as I read/learn about the universe and evolution.

I don't know much about it being used in therapy but I do use it on myself as a cognitive tool🙂.

It goes like this- If something is bothering me, I tell myself The Big bang happened 15 billion years ago, Earth was formed 5 billion years ago, first life evolved 3 billion years ago, first humans 200,000 years ago. The human civilization evolved maybe 10,000 years ago when humans settled down and started agriculture.

Average lifespan today is 80 years.

In the big scheme of things whats is bothering me today, would be of any significance in maybe 5, 10, 100 or 10000 years from now. If its not then its not worth stressing about.

Believe me it works every time for me

 

[Ibid]

It goes like this- If something is bothering me, I tell myself The Big bang happened 15 billion years ago, Earth was formed 5 billion years ago, first life evolved 3 billion years ago, first humans 200,000 years ago. The human civilization evolved maybe 10,000 years ago when humans settled down and started agriculture.

Average lifespan today is 80 years.

In the big scheme of things whats is bothering me today, would be of any significance in maybe 5, 10, 100 or 10000 years from now. If its not then its not worth stressing about.

Believe me it works every time for me

Yes. I can see that, I imagine you are quite healthy but what if you are feeling hopeless and worthless. Are you not just saying "thats nothing, look how really insignificant you are in the big scheme of things, really really small, more insignificant than you ever thought possible". Thats the fly in the ointment with this one imo.

I don’t want to poo poo the whole idea of these therapies. I run a very successful “Hubcap Therapy Group”.
I even a have a workbook. “Hubcap Therapy – How to find joy happiness and an inner peace by the side of the road”
Testimonials include

• I was sceptical at first but looking for hubcaps by the side of the road has changed my life. G. Bush
• Looking for hubcaps has changed the way I see the world. Pottering along looking for old hubcaps has given me a new perspective on life and given me an inner peace I never thought possible. R. Nixon
• Being out in the fresh air and focusing on the edge of road while avoiding getting knocked down by an 18 wheeler puts me in a zen like state and when I find something from an old dodge or even an old Chevy it’s like having an orgasm J. Carter

You just can’t argue with success like that.🙂

 

[digitlnoize]

I think you are probably identifying a gap in services although I do know of some community music projects where people can pay a nominal sum just to spend the day playing with music "gear" and generally messing about with "stuff". You can trust any mental health service to turn something that is just fun into a grind. A sort of midas touch in reverse.

I know places like this, and in fact, volunteer sometimes at a free one aimed at giving local kids something to do with their time, and keeping them off the streets and out of trouble.

I'm really thinking less about PLAYING music, and more about LISTENING to it. Music is capable of creating very visceral emotional reactions (of all varieties) in people, and I think physicians are missing something important by not tapping into that power.

Remember when you were in high school, and you made a mix tape for a girl (or guy) that you liked? Why did you do that? You did it because you thought those songs would convey an emotion, or change their thoughts about you.

It's the same reason people make "work out mixes" of songs that get them "fired up" to exercise. Certain songs have the "power" to get your blood pumping, to inspire activity, and these types of songs could, potentially, be very beneficial to an avolitional person. I think.

Yes, I'm literally talking about "Playlist Therapy," but I can't find anything on it. I found topics in the Music Therapy literature on "Individualized Music Therapy" but they were really just about customizing the standard music therapy treatments (playing an instrument or music with or for a sick person) to a particular person's interests ("I want to hear the guitar mommy!"), not about using specific combinations of songs to inspire a change in thought.

I feel very hampered in my discussion of this right now because I'm just a 4th year, and have pretty much zero therapy training. Maybe some trained therapy folks can help me out...

I agree with your comments about art therapy. I'm a bit biased based obviously, but I don't think these other similar modalities have the same potential across the board. The appreciation of music is pretty much universal in human society, on a personal level not really seen with visual arts, sciences or even religions (how many people do you know who mostly go to church for the music? In fact, most of western music was created by the church, and but I digress...) I don't doubt that cognitive-type therapy with Cosmos, Quantum Mechanics, or Painting could be valuable for some, I'm not sure if it could have the universality of music...again, might just be my own bias here.

Incidentally, I kind of do my own CBT with quantum mechanics. If something sucks, and if the multi-verse predicted by quantum mechanics actually exists (as the most recent research seems to suggest), then somewhere out there, there exists a version of me who is not experiencing that suck. That's a comforting thought...to me at least. Anyways...

 

[Ibid]

I'm really thinking less about PLAYING music, and more about LISTENING to it. Music is capable of creating very visceral emotional reactions (of all varieties) in people, and I think physicians are missing something important by not tapping into that power.

Yes, I'm literally talking about "Playlist Therapy," but I can't find anything on it. I found topics in the Music Therapy literature on "Individualized Music Therapy" but they were really just about customizing the standard music therapy treatments (playing an instrument or music with or for a sick person) to a particular person's interests ("I want to hear the guitar mommy!"), not about using specific combinations of songs to inspire a change in thought.


Incidentally, I kind of do my own CBT with quantum mechanics. If something sucks, and if the multi-verse predicted by quantum mechanics actually exists (as the most recent research seems to suggest), then somewhere out there, there exists a version of me who is not experiencing that suck. That's a comforting thought...to me at least. Anyways...

Well my helping out ability is probably limited what I can tell you is that I have used this with groups to make playlists.
http://widgets.grooveshark.com/
Why? Ive no idea other than what you have stated above. People enjoyed it (I mean really really popular) and got something out of it, thats all I can tell you. ( Patients but outside my job btw.)

As to the second point I suppose a lot of dnoise people may be having an even worse time....or is that just too unlikely, even in all the multiverses...

 

[digitlnoize]

As to the second point I suppose a lot of dnoise people may be having an even worse time....or is that just too unlikely, even in all the multiverses...

Ha! Yes, that too. Playing with multiverses can really mess with your mind. You realize that somewhere, there is a multiverse where everything that every schizophrenic says they see and hear...they actually DO see and hear. Wow.

I once read a theory that said that no one ever actually dies...as experienced by them. The idea being that your own brain/body/soul/whatever will self-select for the multiverse in which you survive. From someone's point of view, their grandfather might die, but from grandfather's POV, everyone else dies and he just keeps on going, no matter what. I'm not going to run out and test it though...but nice to think about for those who've lost patients due to suicide: they only died in your multiverse, not in their own. To them, they might still be alive and kicking.

My final multiverse thought, just because I'm bored and want to derail the thread even more apparently, is that the existence of the multiverse also means that every religion ever conceived (and many not conceived of) is true. If every possible universe exists, then it stands to reason that there is one in which there is a God, another with an Allah, another with a Flying Spaghetti Monster, another with Xenu, and on and on and on. Of course, if one universe exists in which there is an omnipotent, all-powerful God, then by definition He could exist in all universes...wait, did I just prove the existence of God? Or not? 😕😀

 

[michaelrack]

\
I once read a theory that said that no one ever actually dies...as experienced by them. The idea being that your own brain/body/soul/whatever will self-select for the multiverse in which you survive. From someone's point of view, their grandfather might die, but from grandfather's POV, everyone else dies and he just keeps on going, no matter what. I'm not going to run out and test it though..? 😕😀

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_suicide_and_immortality

" Max Tegmark made some brief comments: He acknowledged the argument that "everyone will be immortal" should follow if a survivor outcome is possible for all life-threatening events. The flaw in that argument, he suggests, is that dying is rarely a binary event; it is a progressive process"

 

[spaceboy]

Sort of under the same idea, what do you think about binaural beats?

You could accurately argue that they don't capture the holistic experience of music and are actually a whole different subject, but I think it could add value to this discussion and would be cool to study this in more detail!

Wahbeh H, Calabrese C, Zwickey H, Zajdel J (2007). "Binaural Beat Technology in Humans: A Pilot Study to Assess Neuropsychologic, Physiologic, And Electroencephalographic Effects". Journal of alternative and complementary medicine 13 (2): 199–206

 

[digitlnoize]

Sort of under the same idea, what do you think about binaural beats?

You could accurately argue that they don't capture the holistic experience of music and are actually a whole different subject, but I think it could add value to this discussion and would be cool to study this in more detail!

Wahbeh H, Calabrese C, Zwickey H, Zajdel J (2007). "Binaural Beat Technology in Humans: A Pilot Study to Assess Neuropsychologic, Physiologic, And Electroencephalographic Effects". Journal of alternative and complementary medicine 13 (2): 199–206

I think Pearl Jam's Binaural is a great album!

Seriously, we need more research. There've been some interesting small papers, but I'd like to see something on a larger scale.

I did think this was interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17309374

Results: There was a decrease in trait anxiety (p = 0.004), an increase in quality of life (p = 0.03), and a decrease in insulin-like growth factor-1 (p = 0.01) and dopamine (p = 0.02) observed between pre- and postintervention measurements.

8 patients does not a study make really, but some followup would be nice. If techniques like this can have a measurable physiologic effect and produce improved outcomes for patients, then I'd be open to it...need the evidence though.

My guess is that you'd see similar effects with pretty much any form of meditation, but that's just me.

The creation of Binaural Music (not the "beats") though is very interesting to me. When done well, the effect can be very impressive, but must be listened to on headphones to be appreciated, which is one major limitation of the form.

 

[kugel]

Anyway, fusing this with my interest in psych has generated a lot of thoughts about what we are as humans. It is undeniable how small we are in the scope of the universe. And indeed, we are a statistical probability in the face of such enormity. As a 'thinking animal' this at first seems very distressing. However, now I find it unbelievably comforting knowing that the elements and atoms that I am comprised of will ultimately be recycled; just like the stars, and indeed galaxies, we form, live, die, and are reborn.

I was out in the desert last night and could not stop looking at the Milky Way. I'm always fascinated that we see it because we are part of a silly little solar system in a stupid little backwater of a completely ordinary galaxy. And I get caught up in the possibility that maybe another being circling another star is able to "see" the same thing at the same time.

"My God. It's full of stars."

 

[ShrunkenHeads]

http://www.thestar.com/living/artic...o-lead-the-way-in-music-and-medicine-research

It has been called a window to the soul, the "brandy of the damned" and, most famously, the food of love.
Now scientists believe music may also be an important form of medicine. And next year, Toronto could be at the forefront of this emerging field with the launch of a new centre on music and health research.
The proposed centre, based at University of Toronto, would bring together experts on the cutting edge of using music to improve such medical conditions as strokes, Alzheimer's, chronic pain and Parkinson's. While music has long been recognized as an effective form of therapy, the notion of harnessing song, sound frequencies and rhythm as another tool in treating physical ailments is a much newer domain.
A draft proposal released last week said the new Music and Health Research Collaboratory would connect experts in music, neuroscience, medicine and psychology from universities across southern Ontario and at least half a dozen GTA hospitals.
.
"I'm pretty excited about this," says Don McLean, dean of U of T's faculty of music. "In the last month, all the pennies have started to drop."
He said the project will bring existing "pockets of excellence" around the province under one umbrella and create a movement "that has the potential to move quickly to international prominence."
The prospect of unleashing music as medicine is critical at a time of rising health care costs, an aging population and growing need for palliative care, he notes.
The healing power of music has drawn attention recently, thanks to ABC 20/20's footage of U.S. congresswoman's Gabrielle Giffords' rehabilitation after being shot in the head last January. The incident left her unable to speak or move her right side.
Music therapists used songs as simple as "Yankoo Doodle" to help Giffords retrieve words from the many other areas of the brain that are activated by music. Songs also motivated her to move her right arm.