Cost of PsyD vs. benefit

[PsychStudies]

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Hi-

Currently I am first year student in a Masters counseling program. I was just accepted into a PsyD program at a professional psych school. When I received the offer letter I was ecstatic, however upon further thought, I became terrified of the repercussions of having almost $180k in student debt once the degree is finished. I am middle aged and went back to school because I could not find good employment after being out of the work force for so long--I stayed at home to raise my children for many years. Currently I am trying to weigh the benefit of having this advanced degree with the substantial debt vs having a counseling degree with LCPC licensure/substance abuse cert with less debt.
Can anyone offer me any input or advice? I am concerned about the possibility that I will never be able to fully re-pay this loan, or, pay back the loan at the rate prescribed by the Fed Loan Servicing people, which will be about $1800/month. I am thinking that this kind of debt will affect my credit report and ability to secure a loan for perhaps a house or new car down the road. However, this is an opportunity to get a substantial degree in a field that I love studying, it just comes at a huge cost.

 

[erg923]

Hi-

Currently I am first year student in a Masters counseling program. I was just accepted into a PsyD program at a professional psych school. When I received the offer letter I was ecstatic, however upon further thought, I became terrified of the repercussions of having almost $180k in student debt once the degree is finished. I am middle aged and went back to school because I could not find good employment after being out of the work force for so long--I stayed at home to raise my children for many years. Currently I am trying to weigh the benefit of having this advanced degree with the substantial debt vs having a counseling degree with LCPC licensure/substance abuse cert with less debt.
Can anyone offer me any input or advice? I am concerned about the possibility that I will never be able to fully re-pay this loan, or, pay back the loan at the rate prescribed by the Fed Loan Servicing people, which will be about $1800/month. I am thinking that this kind of debt will affect my credit report and ability to secure a loan for perhaps a house or new car down the road. However, this is an opportunity to get a substantial degree in a field that I love studying, it just comes at a huge cost.

Money issues such as these have been the focus of this board for months now Just look at the threads recently. Yes, you should be scared about the fact that you are taking out 180k-200k in loan for a career that will start you at 50k. It makes no economic sense and creates a state where one has to rely on the "gubment mans" programs (the tax payers, essentially) to make up the difference.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

A search will provide a plethora of answers to your question. Generally speaking, owing 6-figures of debt when your expected income is <$100k is highly untenable.

 

[kcm146]

don't think you're going to find a lot of support for the PsyD on SDN. As a prospective PsyD student, SDN has had some sway over my decision (no matter how much I might not want it to). At the end of the day, it's up to you. I suggest reading some of the other forums- if you're truly second guessing the PsyD, they might push you over the edge into LPC territory.

 

[docma]

Hi-

Currently I am first year student in a Masters counseling program. I was just accepted into a PsyD program at a professional psych school. When I received the offer letter I was ecstatic, however upon further thought, I became terrified of the repercussions of having almost $180k in student debt once the degree is finished. I am middle aged and went back to school because I could not find good employment after being out of the work force for so long--I stayed at home to raise my children for many years. Currently I am trying to weigh the benefit of having this advanced degree with the substantial debt vs having a counseling degree with LCPC licensure/substance abuse cert with less debt.
Can anyone offer me any input or advice? I am concerned about the possibility that I will never be able to fully re-pay this loan, or, pay back the loan at the rate prescribed by the Fed Loan Servicing people, which will be about $1800/month. I am thinking that this kind of debt will affect my credit report and ability to secure a loan for perhaps a house or new car down the road. However, this is an opportunity to get a substantial degree in a field that I love studying, it just comes at a huge cost.

While it is gratifying to be accepted, you are setting yourself up for high risk/low return to make that financial commitment at this life stage in the current economy. An LPC and a clinical specialization in substance use treatment will get you a job that can be gratifying and contribute to the common good without significant debt or stress. You can continue to learn and grow through Continuing Education. For career satisfaction and mental and financial health, I'd say decline the offer with gratitude and then set your course for a master's level career.

 

[JeyRo]

Hi-

Currently I am first year student in a Masters counseling program. I was just accepted into a PsyD program at a professional psych school. When I received the offer letter I was ecstatic, however upon further thought, I became terrified of the repercussions of having almost $180k in student debt once the degree is finished. I am middle aged and went back to school because I could not find good employment after being out of the work force for so long--I stayed at home to raise my children for many years. Currently I am trying to weigh the benefit of having this advanced degree with the substantial debt vs having a counseling degree with LCPC licensure/substance abuse cert with less debt.
Can anyone offer me any input or advice? I am concerned about the possibility that I will never be able to fully re-pay this loan, or, pay back the loan at the rate prescribed by the Fed Loan Servicing people, which will be about $1800/month. I am thinking that this kind of debt will affect my credit report and ability to secure a loan for perhaps a house or new car down the road. However, this is an opportunity to get a substantial degree in a field that I love studying, it just comes at a huge cost.

I'm an enormous believer in the fact that people can start careers and reinvent themselves at virtually any age, so I think it's great you're thinking about all of this!

It looks like you're very clear-headedly thinking about the financial repercussions here- basically, 180K in debt with a degree that would likely net you only a 50K per year salary doesn't make sense. You don't want to be an 80 year old still trying to figure out how to pay 1800 dollars per month in student loan payments.

There will be some here who will say "pretend that unfunded doctoral programs don't exist" and then proceed accordingly, which is not bad advice. I'm a little more generous, I'd say use the rule that you don't take out more total debt than you would expect to make in your first year working post-graduation. 180K is far beyond.

Can you work on some of the traditional routes for making yourself competitive for funded doctoral programs? Like, study for the GREs, maybe get yourself an RA position somehow? There are others here who could give you great advice on that score.....

 

[PsychStudies]

I am wondering why anyone would want to do this then? It must be because of a "personal mission?"
I have a friend who works in this field with a doctoral degree who advised me that the debt is no big deal. However, I have come this far in life with little debt and to feel this added burden before the program even starts is scary.

 

[JeyRo]

I am wondering why anyone would want to do this then? It must be because of a "personal mission?"
I have a friend who works in this field with a doctoral degree who advised me that the debt is no big deal. However, I have come this far in life with little debt and to feel this added burden before the program even starts is scary.

Does this person have a mortgage? Children? Does this person save for retirement, kids' college funds, etc.? Just having the person shrug and say "It's no big deal" doesn't really impress me.

"Personal mission" maybe one way to look at it. I think the most balanced explanation of why people choose to attend professional programs with enormous sticker prices is that they are desperate to "start their lives" and overestimate their earning potential and underestimate the difficulties posed by such enormous student loan debt service. Or, they have a lot of financial support from wealthy relatives, or some other source of funding to get them through....

 

[PsychStudies]

Thanks, I appreciate your input..

 

[PsychStudies]

You an I are on the same page. However, the city I live in does not have many public universities(1-2), and take in like 12 people per year. Problematic when their are 650 applicants.

 

[PsychStudies]

No kids, no spouse, small mortgage. High paying job in the field. Good friend though.

 

[erg923]

No kids, no spouse, small mortgage. High paying job in the field. Good friend though.

Bingo. That represents a minority of people over the age of 30 (how old most people are when they finish the doctorate).

 

[PsychStudies]

don't think you're going to find a lot of support for the PsyD on SDN. As a prospective PsyD student, SDN has had some sway over my decision (no matter how much I might not want it to). At the end of the day, it's up to you. I suggest reading some of the other forums- if you're truly second guessing the PsyD, they might push you over the edge into LPC territory.

Are you still PsyD student or did you change your course?

 

[PsychStudies]

Bingo. That represents a minority of people over the age of 30 (how old most people are when they finish the doctorate).

Well. I am over 30, and a little surprised by the fact that there are not many over 30 in the doctoral program. I guess I chose to go a different route in life, so here I am.

 

[Rivi]

I am wondering why anyone would want to do this then? It must be because of a "personal mission?"
I have a friend who works in this field with a doctoral degree who advised me that the debt is no big deal. However, I have come this far in life with little debt and to feel this added burden before the program even starts is scary.

Honestly, most professional school students that I have known seemed pretty naive. I don't think they seemed to really understand the financial repercussions of the degree and thought "Doctorate = success for life" and just went for it. I am sure some of them made it work, but I know some (most?) that regretted their decision to go to a professional school to at least some degree. There is a blanket sense of trust in higher education, and businesses (which is what a professional school is, but I guess you can say that about all universities too) really capitalize on that.

Personally, I would never go to a professional school for psychology. There may be others in this thread who would. I can only give my perspective.

1. Student loan debt won't go away if you declare bankruptcy. Psychologists make 60-80k a year, on average. The general rules with student loans are not to take out an excess of what you would expect your starting salary to be (60k).

2. While getting accepted to a doctorate program is exciting, keep in mind the professional school acceptance rates tend to be pretty high (50% or higher? ). Thus, they are looked down upon by other programs.

3. Our field is more and more competitive, especially considering about 1/5 of students don't match for internship.

Grad school is stressful and a lot of work, much of which is unpaid. Also consider the opportunity cost of being out of the workforce, not saving for retirement, etc. for 5 years. Listen to as many people as possible, many of whom will disagree with me. Personally, I would not do it.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'm also over 30 although I do not (ahem) consider myself middle aged 😉. I ended up at an excessively funded PhD program, one that paid me so much that I could pay down the debt from my master's. However, I am strongly considering leaving. With a master's degree and a license, I look around me and I see years of 60+ hour weeks, no days off, doing endless free or underpaid therapy. I don't see the point. Actually, I *almost* wish I went to a PsyD program that had better prac sites with neuropsychology training. But this 5-6 years of doing the exact same thing I did in my master's degree? Torture. And I am FULLY FUNDED!! I really don't see the point to a doctorate for therapy practice at all.

 

[futurepsydoc]

My advice is consider the hardships of not earning money for at least five years while accumulating massive debt. Then look at your yearly expenses and see how comfortable/uncomfortable not having an income will be for you and your family over that time period. To note, this assumes you finish in five years. Next, consider how much you have to make in order to break even on expenses + loan repayment after graduating.

NOTE -- Please read about the internship imbalance and the programs you are considering. This information will be highly telling. It could take you much longer than five years and leave you with even worse job prospects depending upon what happens. This will inform your expenses, duration of study, and your ability to pay back loans.

After completing this exercise, do the same for the MA --> LPC --> LCADC route. Crunch the numbers and ask yourself, "Is this feasible or worthwhile?"

Finally, take a look at the job prospects in both fields right now. See what is available. Look at the trends for both professions.

 

[kcm146]

Are you still PsyD student or did you change your course?

I am still waiting to hear if I've been accepted off the alternate list at a partially-funded PhD program, and whether or not some of my MA classes will transfer into the PsyD. There are a lot of factors at work right now, so I'll know a lot more in the upcoming weeks. I am lucky in that I have a lot of resources financially, and I'm also single with no kids and in my 20's. Despite all of this, I am STILL wary about taking on that much debt. SDN has put the fear of god into me about my earning capability, which admittedly has me re-thinking whether to accept.

 

[erg923]

Well. I am over 30, and a little surprised by the fact that there are not many over 30 in the doctoral program. I guess I chose to go a different route in life, so here I am.

I meant that this is WHY he/she (your friend) finds it to be "no big deal." That's fantastic and all, but doesn't sound he/she lives in the reality that most of us do by the time we are working with our doctorates. Most of us have (or at least want to have) spouse, mortgage, kids. Financial planning (for most of us) is much more than planning for just ourselves.

 

[PsychStudies]

I meant that this is WHY he/she (your friend) finds it to be "no big deal." That's fantastic and all, but doesn't sound he/she lives in the reality that most of us do by the time we are working with our doctorates. Most of us have (or at least want to have) spouse, mortgage, kids. Financial planning (for most of us) is much more than planning for just ourselves.

Yes I agree, I had a hunch this was the case with my friend....I would be fearful of this kind of debt no matter what age, I do not have a rich relative that can help me fund this venture. My kids are in high school, and, I do not want to be strapped to a loan for the rest of my life and not be able to ever financially help them because of this.

 

[PsychStudies]

My advice is consider the hardships of not earning money for at least five years while accumulating massive debt. Then look at your yearly expenses and see how comfortable/uncomfortable not having an income will be for you and your family over that time period. To note, this assumes you finish in five years. Next, consider how much you have to make in order to break even on expenses + loan repayment after graduating.

NOTE -- Please read about the internship imbalance and the programs you are considering. This information will be highly telling. It could take you much longer than five years and leave you with even worse job prospects depending upon what happens. This will inform your expenses, duration of study, and your ability to pay back loans.

After completing this exercise, do the same for the MA --> LPC --> LCADC route. Crunch the numbers and ask yourself, "Is this feasible or worthwhile?"

Finally, take a look at the job prospects in both fields right now. See what is available. Look at the trends for both professions.

I live in a saturated city as far as psych schools (mostly private) and grads go. I have lined up a great clinical internship site next semester for my MA. At this point I am strongly swayed to not accept the PsyD offer, the outlandish cost makes no sense to me. The masters is expensive enough.

 

[PsychStudies]

I'm also over 30 although I do not (ahem) consider myself middle aged 😉. I ended up at an excessively funded PhD program, one that paid me so much that I could pay down the debt from my master's. However, I am strongly considering leaving. With a master's degree and a license, I look around me and I see years of 60+ hour weeks, no days off, doing endless free or underpaid therapy. I don't see the point. Actually, I *almost* wish I went to a PsyD program that had better prac sites with neuropsychology training. But this 5-6 years of doing the exact same thing I did in my master's degree? Torture. And I am FULLY FUNDED!! I really don't see the point to a doctorate for therapy practice at all.

That is really scary....so you are regretting the doctoral road? Employment you describe for masters level clinicians is alarming. It is odd this is not discussed at the school I go to.

 

[PsychStudies]

Honestly, most professional school students that I have known seemed pretty naive. I don't think they seemed to really understand the financial repercussions of the degree and thought "Doctorate = success for life" and just went for it. I am sure some of them made it work, but I know some (most?) that regretted their decision to go to a professional school to at least some degree. There is a blanket sense of trust in higher education, and businesses (which is what a professional school is, but I guess you can say that about all universities too) really capitalize on that.

Personally, I would never go to a professional school for psychology. There may be others in this thread who would. I can only give my perspective.

1. Student loan debt won't go away if you declare bankruptcy. Psychologists make 60-80k a year, on average. The general rules with student loans are not to take out an excess of what you would expect your starting salary to be (60k).

2. While getting accepted to a doctorate program is exciting, keep in mind the professional school acceptance rates tend to be pretty high (50% or higher? ). Thus, they are looked down upon by other programs.

3. Our field is more and more competitive, especially considering about 1/5 of students don't match for internship.

Grad school is stressful and a lot of work, much of which is unpaid. Also consider the opportunity cost of being out of the workforce, not saving for retirement, etc. for 5 years. Listen to as many people as possible, many of whom will disagree with me. Personally, I would not do it.

No I appreciate your input. your thoughts have crossed my mind at some point, I guess everything is now coming to a head. Most of the people I know in psych attend the same school I do, I am glad to hear other viewpoints.

 

[erg923]

That is really scary....so you are regretting the doctoral road? Employment you describe for masters level clinicians is alarming. It is odd this is not discussed at the school I go to.

I am a clinical ph.d and faculty in a university at the moment. I am, however, looking around in my city, as my school is private and the pay is not fantastic, even when fully tenured here. To give you an idea, let me share a redacted email I got this morning. It might giove you an idea about the state of funding for psych services. This is a large academic medical center/school (which is typically protected land for psychologists), so you may be able to imagine how we are valued out in the non academic world.

"Dear Dr. XXXX,

Thank you for the interest in working at XXXXX. While we definitely have need for a mental health professional providing palliative care at the Cancer Center, we currently have no funding for such a "luxury." (sarcasm, of course) I don't anticipate this to change in the near future, but I will keep your CV just in case.

thank you, as always, for thinking of us.

Best wishes,


XXXXX, MD
Director, University of XXXXX Medicine Fellowship Program
Associate Professor, University XXXX Department of Medicine
Medical Director, University XXXX Palliative Care Services

 

[PsychStudies]

WOW. This is why I entered the psych field. I felt it would be land of better opportunities.

I too was a faculty member recently at a community college, but because of the state of the economy, I could not find full time employment in academia or public school, so I left and entered MA program in psych.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

For what it's worth, I graduated from a fully funded PhD program and if I knew that I was going to work as a clinician, I would have gone the LPC or MSW route instead. (My career goals changed from academic to practitioner through the course of the program). A big thing for me was that I feel like I wasted what could have been really good years of my life (my grad school experience was brutal and quite unpleasant). I can't get those years back. I think you will have plenty of job opportunities with an LPC, particularly with a substance background. My vote is to skip the PsyD and enjoy your kids' high school years before you become an empty nester. 🙂

Good luck,
Dr. E

 

[PsychStudies]

For what it's worth, I graduated from a fully funded PhD program and if I knew that I was going to work as a clinician, I would have gone the LPC or MSW route instead. (My career goals changed from academic to practitioner through the course of the program). A big thing for me was that I feel like I wasted what could have been really good years of my life (my grad school experience was brutal and quite unpleasant). I can't get those years back. I think you will have plenty of job opportunities with an LPC, particularly with a substance background. My vote is to skip the PsyD and enjoy your kids' high school years before you become an empty nester. 🙂

Good luck,
Dr. E

Thanks, I appreciate your input. I do feel like at this point in my life every year has a substantial amount of value that I cannot get back. I completely relate to what you say!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

PsychStudies....

You should think about what you'd like to do as a career and work backwards. Are there areas of practice that require doctoral training? If so, how much will it cost? Any program that is not well funded should probably be avoided because your final debt can easily be $100k-$150k+. Cost seems to be the most commonly ignored area of concern, though it seems like you have a more realistic handle on the impact than many applicants.

As someone who attended a uni-based Psy.D. program (that didn't have good funding), debt is definitely worth worrying about up front. I hustled to get TA & RA positions, get on grant-funded research projects, etc....and I still ended up taking out loans for 3 of my 5 years of schooling. I had access to subsidized loans (gone now), at a lower interest rate (gone now), and lower tuition (many programs have raised their tuition 20%-50%+ in the past decade)...and I still ended up with $100k+ in loans after tuition, fees, compound interest, etc.

Knowing what I know now, I cannot recommend ANY program (Ph.D., Ed.D. or Psy.D.) that isn't well funded. The average salary is just not worth it. Even if you earn in the top 10%-20% of the profession (which I do), it is still far from an easy recommendation.

If the offer for admission doesn't come w. a tuition waiver, stipend, and clear RA/TA options....run the other way.

Best of luck.

ps. The field isn't all doom & gloom, but the best jobs usually require the best of the best AND flexibility to relocate.

 

[PsychStudies]

PsychStudies....

You should think about what you'd like to do as a career and work backwards. Are there areas of practice that require doctoral training? If so, how much will it cost? Any program that is not well funded should probably be avoided because your final debt can easily be $100k-$150k+. Cost seems to be the most commonly ignored area of concern, though it seems like you have a more realistic handle on the impact than many applicants.

As someone who attended a uni-based Psy.D. program (that didn't have good funding), debt is definitely worth worrying about up front. I hustled to get TA & RA positions, get on grant-funded research projects, etc....and I still ended up taking out loans for 3 of my 5 years of schooling. I had access to subsidized loans (gone now), at a lower interest rate (gone now), and lower tuition (many programs have raised their tuition 20%-50%+ in the past decade)...and I still ended up with $100k+ in loans after tuition, fees, compound interest, etc.

Knowing what I know now, I cannot recommend ANY program (Ph.D., Ed.D. or Psy.D.) that isn't well funded. The average salary is just not worth it. Even if you earn in the top 10%-20% of the profession (which I do), it is still far from an easy recommendation.

If the offer for admission doesn't come w. a tuition waiver, stipend, and clear RA/TA options....run the other way.

Best of luck.

ps. The field isn't all doom & gloom, but the best jobs usually require the best of the best AND flexibility to relocate.

Yes I hear you, my situation does not include a stipend or TA, which my last degree did, which is why I have no college debt. Being missing in action from the workforce for many years is my problem. I have always loved Psychology but never took action to become educated in the field for possible employment later--I was swayed towards different direction by well-meaning parents. Honestly what I ultimately want to do is counsel people, help them through life's hardships, make a difference in their lives. If having doctoral level training will help me in the salary area, increase the perceived level of serious to employers in the profession, then I would be more than willing to do this. If not, then I have no problem walking away. Most of my friends in the school that I attend say "do it" but they are not thinking about substantial debt and what it means. The kind of debt you mention is scary. You sound like you had a good handle/good thinking pertaining to your attaining a somewhat funded PhD early on in your career. Even though you have some debt left, you're very lucky!

 

[LETSGONYR]

Yes I hear you, my situation does not include a stipend or TA, which my last degree did, which is why I have no college debt. Being missing in action from the workforce for many years is my problem. I have always loved Psychology but never took action to become educated in the field for possible employment later--I was swayed towards different direction by well-meaning parents. Honestly what I ultimately want to do is counsel people, help them through life's hardships, make a difference in their lives. If having doctoral level training will help me in the salary area, increase the perceived level of serious to employers in the profession, then I would be more than willing to do this. If not, then I have no problem walking away. Most of my friends in the school that I attend say "do it" but they are not thinking about substantial debt and what it means. The kind of debt you mention is scary. You sound like you had a good handle/good thinking pertaining to your attaining a somewhat funded PhD early on in your career. Even though you have some debt left, you're very lucky!

As someone still in school, I would say that you could do what you want with your masters.

Keep in mind that while doctoral level salaries will be higher, you will have ~5 years of no income, in addition to the large amount of loans. So, really, you will actually be making LESS money if you go for your doctorate, especially since you are a non-traditional student and won't be graduating at age 29 or so.

Also, all doctoral programs in clinical psychology require a full-time, year-long clinical internship. There is currently a large imbalance between the number of applicants and number of positions available. If you are able to secure a position, which 1,100 people do not do every year (and which will be significantly harder coming from a Psy.D. professional school), it may not be in your area and will require you to relocate. If you have kids, you may be unable to relocate, which means that you might not be able to graduate anyway.

Honestly, if I were in your position, I'd look for a job and get licensed as an LPC. You can still counsel people and make a difference in their lives. You can always take additional trainings to gain more expertise in a specific area or type of therapy... but a doctorate is unnecessary and I'd say not worth it.

 

[PsychStudies]

As someone still in school, I would say that you could do what you want with your masters.

Keep in mind that while doctoral level salaries will be higher, you will have ~5 years of no income, in addition to the large amount of loans. So, really, you will actually be making LESS money if you go for your doctorate, especially since you are a non-traditional student and won't be graduating at age 29 or so.

Also, all doctoral programs in clinical psychology require a full-time, year-long clinical internship. There is currently a large imbalance between the number of applicants and number of positions available. If you are able to secure a position, which 1,100 people do not do every year (and which will be significantly harder coming from a Psy.D. professional school), it may not be in your area and will require you to relocate. If you have kids, you may be unable to relocate, which means that you might not be able to graduate anyway.

Honestly, if I were in your position, I'd look for a job and get licensed as an LPC. You can still counsel people and make a difference in their lives. You can always take additional trainings to gain more expertise in a specific area or type of therapy... but a doctorate is unnecessary and I'd say not worth it.

Thanks I appreciate your input greatly.

 

[erg923]

I'm also over 30 although I do not (ahem) consider myself middle aged 😉. I ended up at an excessively funded PhD program, one that paid me so much that I could pay down the debt from my master's. However, I am strongly considering leaving. With a master's degree and a license, I look around me and I see years of 60+ hour weeks, no days off, doing endless free or underpaid therapy. I don't see the point. Actually, I *almost* wish I went to a PsyD program that had better prac sites with neuropsychology training. But this 5-6 years of doing the exact same thing I did in my master's degree? Torture. And I am FULLY FUNDED!! I really don't see the point to a doctorate for therapy practice at all.

You are in a counseling psych program though, right? I assume they tend to be more focused on counseling/psychotherapy? I hope the focus is on EBTs and well rounded training and application, not just the 50 minute outpatient therapy hour? That would be quite the waste. Do they not have an assessment requirement within their clinical training/placements?

 

[Psychadelic2012]

That is really scary....so you are regretting the doctoral road? Employment you describe for masters level clinicians is alarming. It is odd this is not discussed at the school I go to.

If you're talking about when I said this...

With a master's degree and a license, I look around me and I see years of 60+ hour weeks, no days off, doing endless free or underpaid therapy. I don't see the point.

...I meant that this is what my doctoral program entails, with a salary at least half of what I'd make out in the world working at a position with my master's degree at a 40-hr/week job. I'm taking all of the same classes as in my master's program and working extra on top of it with assignments, assistantship, clinical work (unpaid) and research.

I regret going to the PhD program I go to. They all lie to us to get us to enroll, even the funded ones. They want you to "buy" into the dream. Don't fall for wanting to be called "doctor." I'm considering going straight experimental (i.e., research and no clinical training) so I can be done quicker, not have to jump through the hoops, and still find a faculty/research position.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

You are in a counseling psych program though, right? I assume they tend to be more focused on counseling/psychotherapy?

Yes and yes. 👎

I hope the focus is on EBTs and well rounded training and application, not just the 50 minute outpatient therapy hour? That would be quite the waste.

Not sure what you mean by the difference between those two. Focus on EBTs? Meh--they say they do, but the reality is that it isn't and it's more theory-focused based on what students *want* to do or find fun.

Do they not have an assessment requirement within their clinical training/placements?

No. None.

 

[erg923]

Yes and yes. 👎



Not sure what you mean by the difference between those two. Focus on EBTs? Meh--they say they do, but the reality is that it isn't and it's more theory-focused based on what students *want* to do or find fun.



No. None.

I meant, I hope they train you in EBTs AND I hope they train you (via practicum... and in class too) on how to function as a psychologist and do therapeutic work in primary care settings, hospital settings, consultation roles, and interdisciplinary teams. Psychotherapy aint just a 50 minute office hour once per week...🙂

 

[Sanman]

Also, all doctoral programs in clinical psychology require a full-time, year-long clinical internship. There is currently a large imbalance between the number of applicants and number of positions available. If you are able to secure a position, which 1,100 people do not do every year (and which will be significantly harder coming from a Psy.D. professional school), it may not be in your area and will require you to relocate. If you have kids, you may be unable to relocate, which means that you might not be able to graduate anyway.

That was going to be my point. Getting an APA accredited internship is not getting any easier. You may well have to relocate or choose a non-accredited internship limit career opportunities for a lifetime to son of the better paying positions. Even if you relocate for internship many people stay on for post-doc as it is easier than searching for a position. So, that may mean 1-2 yrs of relocation.

I am a bit a rare bird. I planned to be a clinician and do some academic work/teaching (ideally VA or AMC). I attended a full-funded PsyD straight out of college in an area with a reasonable cost of living. I still had to take out loans to pay for my living expenses. I got an APA accredited internship (on my first try and in my home city) and as I finish up my post-doc year have better than average job options. However, it took a lot of panning and a bit of luck. I also refused to attend a non-funded program as I just could not see the economics working.

 

[graduatingsoon]

You mentioned that you are over 30 and have kids. If you cannot re-locate for internship/post-doc or your first job, you may have a really tough time finding a position in this field--or even at all--unless you are a superstar. As others mentioned, this field is incredibly competitive, I would not recommend getting a PsyD or a doctoral degree if you are also geographically restricted. I also don't recommend going into debt in such an uncertain and unstable field. This is not a field that is friendly to folks with families or spouses in this regard.

Btw, professional programs (like argosy, alliant) have a significantly higher percentage of students defaulting on their loans compared to traditional universities. I saw one figure that was over 15% default rate for their MA and doctoral programs when the average for many universities is like 1-2%.

One risk of entering a professional program is that you may never get the degree, but be saddled with over 100K in loans since attrition tends to be high in these programs.

 

[graduatingsoon]

WOW. This is why I entered the psych field. I felt it would be land of better opportunities.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Mental health is the first thing to be cut from any state/federal/local budget even though funding for mental health was limited anyhow pre-recession. Mental health services are not valued in this country. Psychologists are not valued either as pretty much every clinical job listing asks for a PhD/PsyD/MFT/LCSW as if they are all interchangeable.

I say get that MA degree and move on with your life. This is my 7th year in training as a clinical psychologist and i'm still not done. I have one more year for postdoc before getting licensed. It's very demoralizing to be "in training" for nearly a decade of your life.

 

[cara susanna]

Psychologists are not valued either as pretty much every clinical job listing asks for a PhD/PsyD/MFT/LCSW as if they are all interchangeable.

Someone recently quoted a job ad that lumped us in together with people who have high school degrees. Hurray!

 

[futureapppsy2]

Someone recently quoted a job ad that lumped us in together with people who have high school degrees. Hurray!

Wow. That's really not a good sign.

 

[Lyra33]

I'm currently at the end of my third year in a PsyD program, and if I could go back and make the decision again, I probably would decide to attend the MSW program I had been accepted to. I like my program and feel I'm getting excellent training at my practicum sites, but the prospect of graduating with so much debt is terrifying. I have much less debt than my peers because I've held down a part-time job my entire time in school, but it's extremely difficult to balance the two, and I'm only able to because I don't really have any other responsibilities outside of school and work. I would definitely echo the suggestions of everyone else and suggest doing a master's program.

 

[JeyRo]

I'm currently at the end of my third year in a PsyD program, and if I could go back and make the decision again, I probably would decide to attend the MSW program I had been accepted to. I like my program and feel I'm getting excellent training at my practicum sites, but the prospect of graduating with so much debt is terrifying. I have much less debt than my peers because I've held down a part-time job my entire time in school, but it's extremely difficult to balance the two, and I'm only able to because I don't really have any other responsibilities outside of school and work. I would definitely echo the suggestions of everyone else and suggest doing a master's program.

I'm in a similar boat, although several years removed from your situation. I graduated in 2004 from an unfunded doctoral program.

If I had to do it again I would have worked RA positions longer, worked on my GRE scores, and gotten a couple of pubs under my belt and done a funded program. Or maybe I would have gotten that MPH degree my psychobio prof recommended me in undergrad.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

I'm currently at the end of my third year in a PsyD program, and if I could go back and make the decision again, I probably would decide to attend the MSW program I had been accepted to. I like my program and feel I'm getting excellent training at my practicum sites, but the prospect of graduating with so much debt is terrifying. I have much less debt than my peers because I've held down a part-time job my entire time in school, but it's extremely difficult to balance the two, and I'm only able to because I don't really have any other responsibilities outside of school and work. I would definitely echo the suggestions of everyone else and suggest doing a master's program.

I have a somewhat differing perspective. I went back to school after completing my Masters and obtaining the Masters level license to practice in my state, because it was clear to me that in working with certain clients (SMI, comorbidities including substance abuse, some trauma...) that I needed more training. Having completed some excellent practica and applied course work in EBT interventions, I think I truly needed the focused clinical training.

However, I'm not convinced that my choice to attend a Psy.D. (university based, where I RA for a small stipend and no tuition remission) was the right one. I'll be coming out with over 100K of debt, and thankfully will be able to make it with my spouse's salary etc. but it seems like unnecessary stress. I am starting to see my school as greedy for taking on the class sizes they do (20's), nickel and diming the students, and with faculty spread too thin because they have so many to advise.

I would recommend that if you are able to get a funded position, pursue that option first. If you have reasons that full funding isn't as likely (no pubs, modest grades at some point) then before considering a school, see if you can speak to alumni from that school about it before choosing to attend. I got NO honest answers from current students (drinking the Kool-Aid, maybe? denial?), but during the past few years have found some alum to be forthcoming about what they were displeased about throughout the process.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

...see if you can speak to alumni from that school about it before choosing to attend. I got NO honest answers from current students (drinking the Kool-Aid, maybe? denial?), but during the past few years have found some alum to be forthcoming about what they were displeased about throughout the process.

I would second the recommendation to attempt to seek out alumni to get their take on the program(s). Students, unfortunately, are going to be under pressure (internal and possibly external) to provide an overall positive view. I'm not saying you won't get a list of a programs' shortcomings from current students, but alumni are going to be in a position to much more freely offer this type of input. Additionally, alumni have had likely the chance of training/working in sites not directly affiliated with the program, and may have a better idea of how their alma mater "stacks up" relative to others in the field.

 

[PHD12]

I live in California--the state that houses the highest # of unfunded PsyD programs.

Many graduates of these programs have such depressing outcomes, particularly the ones that don't complete accredited internships. They would be better off without a college degree in my opinion. I've supervised people from these programs and belong to several networking groups out here so I routinely meet recent graduates of PsyD professional programs and know something about their employment paths in CA (professional school grads make up the majority of psychologists out here). One path is taking on unpaid postdoc fellowship (yes, they are working unpaid in a full-time role; UCSF, san mateo etc. have plenty of positions). Another very common path is taking a psychological assistant job in a private/group practice. Sound good? Except in CA you are not allowed to advertise or recruit patients yourself without a licensure (or take insurance). I spoke extensively to folks who are doing psych assistantships because I considered this route thinking it may be lucrative. However, I found out that they were earning 10k-25k (first few months nothing) because the supervising psychologist was taking 60-70% of their earnings and they were only getting about 5-10 hours per week in face to face hours. Many of them were stuck as psych assistants for 3-4 years earning incomes that were below the poverty line due to a combo of failing the licensure exam and also not getting enough hours for licensure (plus not having funds to pay for the test). The PGSP PsyD graduates seem to do much better out here though--a large # are at Kaiser Post-doc fellowships (pay of 40K).

 

[Rivi]

I live in California--the state that houses the highest # of unfunded PsyD programs.

Many graduates of these programs have such depressing outcomes, particularly the ones that don't complete accredited internships. They would be better off without a college degree in my opinion. I've supervised people from these programs and belong to several networking groups out here so I routinely meet recent graduates of PsyD professional programs and know something about their employment paths in CA (professional school grads make up the majority of psychologists out here). One path is taking on unpaid postdoc fellowship (yes, they are working unpaid in a full-time role; UCSF, san mateo etc. have plenty of positions). Another very common path is taking a psychological assistant job in a private/group practice. Sound good? Except in CA you are not allowed to advertise or recruit patients yourself without a licensure (or take insurance). I spoke extensively to folks who are doing psych assistantships because I considered this route thinking it may be lucrative. However, I found out that they were earning 10k-25k (first few months nothing) because the supervising psychologist was taking 60-70% of their earnings and they were only getting about 5-10 hours per week in face to face hours. Many of them were stuck as psych assistants for 3-4 years earning incomes that were below the poverty line due to a combo of failing the licensure exam and also not getting enough hours for licensure (plus not having funds to pay for the test). The PGSP PsyD graduates seem to do much better out here though--a large # are at Kaiser Post-doc fellowships (pay of 40K).

Were these APA accredited programs and people that went to accredited internships?

 

[JeyRo]

I would second the recommendation to attempt to seek out alumni to get their take on the program(s). Students, unfortunately, are going to be under pressure (internal and possibly external) to provide an overall positive view. I'm not saying you won't get a list of a programs' shortcomings from current students, but alumni are going to be in a position to much more freely offer this type of input. Additionally, alumni have had likely the chance of training/working in sites not directly affiliated with the program, and may have a better idea of how their alma mater "stacks up" relative to others in the field.

Absolutely.

Re. the issue of internal pressure to give inflated positive feedback about the quality of unfunded programs, I think this fits with cognitive dissonance theory. I personally think you're going to get a much more accurate view of a doctoral program's quality from current students in funded programs vs. unfunded ones. It's analogous to what Festinger found - when only getting paid a dollar, students are much more likely to hallucinate a tedious, boring task as interesting, while students paid for their time a reasonable wage are much more able to say exactly what's going on.

Festinger, L., & Carlsmith, J.M. (1959). Cognitive consequences of forced compliance. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 58(2), 203–210. ​

Am I wrong here?

I think for my part, I am in a much better position to give accurate advice about attending unfunded programs as a graduate approximately 10 years out (a relatively successful one at that, I think) vs. when I was a student. I think I felt a lot of emotional pressure to justify to myself what I was doing.

 

[PHD12]

Were these APA accredited programs and people that went to accredited internships?

From doing my research about the PP unlicensed path, I spoke to people from APA Accredited programs who DID NOT complete APA internships (most of the programs were CSPP, Wright Institute). However, the majority of students from these programs in CA do not complete APA internships. The exception is PGSP-PsyD and Pepperdine.