Curious About Pharmacy School

[BacktoSchoolBob]

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I'm curious about pharmacy school, and am hoping for a basic overview of what it's like to be pre-pharm. I know the prereqs are similar to or equal to medical school prereqs some of which I have and some of which I don't have, but will be taking. I don't have anything to equate what the average pre-pharm person, especially nontrads, are up against so here's where I'm hoping some of you might fill in for me. What are the average GPAs of pharm school matriculants, etc? My GPA finishing college was about 3.42, and then I'd still have to take o-chem and physics which I've talked about in the med boards before. I wouldn't say pharmacy is a fall back, but it is perhaps an interesting alternative particularly if I'll learn as much about the human system as I might in med school. Whatever you can throw at me I'll be glad to take. Thanks and good luck in your own pursuits!

 

[diastole]

The best place to start is with the stickies at the top. Your GPA seems to be acceptable. Each school has its own list of pre-reqs so you will need to check with the schools you are interested in and work on those. You will need to take the PCAT unless you apply to non-PCAT schools. A score of 80 or above is considered competitive. Like med school, a lot of schools want to see more than just grades and PCATs. Pharmacy experience is very helpful and even required in some schools. They also want to see leadership, compassion, ability to work in a team, etc.

 

[sungieality]

I'm curious about pharmacy school, and am hoping for a basic overview of what it's like to be pre-pharm. I know the prereqs are similar to or equal to medical school prereqs some of which I have and some of which I don't have, but will be taking. I don't have anything to equate what the average pre-pharm person, especially nontrads, are up against so here's where I'm hoping some of you might fill in for me. What are the average GPAs of pharm school matriculants, etc? My GPA finishing college was about 3.42, and then I'd still have to take o-chem and physics which I've talked about in the med boards before. I wouldn't say pharmacy is a fall back, but it is perhaps an interesting alternative particularly if I'll learn as much about the human system as I might in med school. Whatever you can throw at me I'll be glad to take. Thanks and good luck in your own pursuits!

If you go to http://www.pharmcas.org and click on School Information, it'll let you know the specific stats/requirements/etc for each individual pharmacy school. I think generally the average GPA is around 3.4-3.5 for many schools (but not all, of course), which is good since that's pretty much around where you stand.

 

[tahi193]

Some people above already mentioned some of the things below but I wrote this long post so here it is:

You're right that the pre-reqs are similar to medical school. Pharmacy has a few pre-reqs that are not normally required for medical like microbiology and often non-science things like public speaking and economics. There is a lot more variability among pharmacy schools about what is required. For example, most schools require chemistry through Organic II but some might require a semester or two of Biochem. It's really helpful to know which schools you might want to attend while you're doing your pre-reqs so you can plan accordingly.

The average GPA is also variable. The newer schools have averages of perhaps 3.3 to 3.5 while some of the more established/popular/higher ranked schools might have average GPAs in the 3.6-3.7 range.

I'm not in pharmacy school yet, but I would venture to say that for the first semester or two, pharmacy and medical school are similar and then it starts to branch off from there. Maybe some people in pharmacy school can tell you more about it, but I doubt that pharmacy school is as in depth on human anatomy and physiology as medical school.

Take a look around the forum and try using the seach function. Also you might want to take a look at the PharmCAS website. It has a lot of information about each school as well as about the general application process. Good luck!

PharmCAS school pages:
http://www.pharmcas.org/collegesschools/schoolpages.htm

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

Thanks for the replies. I've had a look now, and I see that one my ideal school required that I didn't take was botany. Fortunately I happen to know of a local community college that offers that via distance learning so that's doable. I already mentioned I lack o-chem and physics as well as calculus which I really didn't want to have to ever take speaking of cal there. 🙁 I've never had an opportunity or reason to work in a pharmacy although I've ran retail establishments, i.e. approving numbers, hiring/evaluating, setting policy, etc which I only mention since there are so many retail chains now with pharmacies. I'm currently in a government supervisory position now which I mention because someone asked for leadership. I've got a few years of healthcare experience running an ambulance as a paramedic, and as I mentioned once in a premed deal I was a volunteer fireman for seven years which is a little volunteerism. I really doubt that there'd be any volunteerism occurring in pharmacy although I suspect if it were necessary I may could pick up a part-time job working in a pharmacy or something. I really don't know what to say there. Maybe just some observation? Oh well we'll see how it works. I'll look into it more. Thanks again!

 

[xtsukiyox]

[...]Fortunately I happen to know of a local community college that offers that via distance learning so that's doable.
I already mentioned I lack o-chem and physics as well as calculus which I really didn't want to have to ever take speaking of cal there. 🙁
[...]I really doubt that there'd be any volunteerism occurring in pharmacy although I suspect if it were necessary I may could pick up a part-time job working in a pharmacy or something. I really don't know what to say there. Maybe just some observation? Oh well we'll see how it works. I'll look into it more. Thanks again!

I cut out the points I wanted to respond to. 🙂

First, contact your school and see if they will take internet / distance learning classes. Lots will, but some won't (Midwestern - GC, for example). Unfortunately, that puts me in evening classes just so my butt's in the seat, apparently. Ask if they can make an exception for your situation - working full time, volunteer firefighter (so can't guarantee you'll be available at class time if something goes up in smoke), etc. etc. Can't hurt to ask, right?

Check the prereqs for your school - they may only require Brief Calc versus Calc I & Calc II (I've seen at least one school where this was the case). Probably will be much more palletable, and, tbh, I really don't see Pharmacists manually crunching integrals and derivatives much (maybe working with a computer program that uses 'em, but...).

There are volunteer opportunities within pharmacy, especially at hospitals. However, I think your work experience and volunteer history is impressive! I think you're probably far ahead of a lot of people who apply in that respect - at least, you're far ahead of me. It seems that a good amount of pharmacy students have limited workforce experience (that is to say, they went straight from highschool to college and straight on to pharm school). You can make a good case that you know what it's about and are ready to take a leadership role... because you've had one, including the real nitty gritty of what it takes to be a manager.

I would highly suggest seeing if you can job shadow a pharmacist, so you can see what the profession is like. In fact, see if you can't shadow people in different environments (retail, hospital, etc.) to get a good feel for what's out there.

 

[wes011]

I'm curious about pharmacy school, and am hoping for a basic overview of what it's like to be pre-pharm. I know the prereqs are similar to or equal to medical school prereqs some of which I have and some of which I don't have, but will be taking. I don't have anything to equate what the average pre-pharm person, especially nontrads, are up against so here's where I'm hoping some of you might fill in for me. What are the average GPAs of pharm school matriculants, etc? My GPA finishing college was about 3.42, and then I'd still have to take o-chem and physics which I've talked about in the med boards before. I wouldn't say pharmacy is a fall back, but it is perhaps an interesting alternative particularly if I'll learn as much about the human system as I might in med school. Whatever you can throw at me I'll be glad to take. Thanks and good luck in your own pursuits!

Bob my best friend is an orthopedic resident in Louisville, KY. I am so glad I did not pursue medical school, as he hates his life now. He has had no control over his life since he graduated from medical school. You have to go through a matching program where you visit different programs that you want to specialize in and you rank your choices, likewise, they rank you against all the other interested candidates. My friend graduated top 10% in his medical school class and had outstanding board scores and still did not match. When you don't match, you have to scramble to find an open residency spot, so he went and did a year of general surgery and then the following year he matched back home in the orthopedic program. You figure you go to school for 4 years, hopefully match and do a residency for 3-8 depending on how specialized you want to become and you really have not much control over your life during the whole process.

I think a very attractive reality with Pharmacy is it is a job that is high in demand (depending where you live) so after you graduate, you might want to do a 1 year or 2 year residency (PGY1 and PGY2) if you want to be in a hospital setting and in a preceptor role where you help train future PharmD's and MD's or you go into the retail setting or something else. You have a lot more control over your life than you will as an MD. I am married with a small child so this is very attractive to me.

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

I cut out the points I wanted to respond to. 🙂

First, contact your school and see if they will take internet / distance learning classes. Lots will, but some won't (Midwestern - GC, for example). Unfortunately, that puts me in evening classes just so my butt's in the seat, apparently. Ask if they can make an exception for your situation - working full time, volunteer firefighter (so can't guarantee you'll be available at class time if something goes up in smoke), etc. etc. Can't hurt to ask, right?

Check the prereqs for your school - they may only require Brief Calc versus Calc I & Calc II (I've seen at least one school where this was the case). Probably will be much more palletable, and, tbh, I really don't see Pharmacists manually crunching integrals and derivatives much (maybe working with a computer program that uses 'em, but...).

There are volunteer opportunities within pharmacy, especially at hospitals. However, I think your work experience and volunteer history is impressive! I think you're probably far ahead of a lot of people who apply in that respect - at least, you're far ahead of me. It seems that a good amount of pharmacy students have limited workforce experience (that is to say, they went straight from highschool to college and straight on to pharm school). You can make a good case that you know what it's about and are ready to take a leadership role... because you've had one, including the real nitty gritty of what it takes to be a manager.

I would highly suggest seeing if you can job shadow a pharmacist, so you can see what the profession is like. In fact, see if you can't shadow people in different environments (retail, hospital, etc.) to get a good feel for what's out there.

Thank you for the information and positive remarks.

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

Bob my best friend is an orthopedic resident in Louisville, KY. I am so glad I did not pursue medical school, as he hates his life now. He has had no control over his life since he graduated from medical school. You have to go through a matching program where you visit different programs that you want to specialize in and you rank your choices, likewise, they rank you against all the other interested candidates. My friend graduated top 10% in his medical school class and had outstanding board scores and still did not match. When you don't match, you have to scramble to find an open residency spot, so he went and did a year of general surgery and then the following year he matched back home in the orthopedic program. You figure you go to school for 4 years, hopefully match and do a residency for 3-8 depending on how specialized you want to become and you really have not much control over your life during the whole process.

I think a very attractive reality with Pharmacy is it is a job that is high in demand (depending where you live) so after you graduate, you might want to do a 1 year or 2 year residency (PGY1 and PGY2) if you want to be in a hospital setting and in a preceptor role where you help train future PharmD's and MD's or you go into the retail setting or something else. You have a lot more control over your life than you will as an MD. I am married with a small child so this is very attractive to me.

This is largely why I'm second guessing medical school. Now to qualify that I don't think that I'd have any trouble learning what it takes to be a physician or doing the work. That said, I really can't imagine doing medicine outside of primary care, and although there will always be primary care physicians the growth of midlevel providers is a legitimate threat to the physician workforce. It's only good business sense. Midlevels can take care of the vast majority of minor problems that people go to their PCP with and be reimbursed at a lower cost. I too have, and still somewhat, entertain the thought of being a PA, but laregly (nothing against PAs) because I don't answer to a whole lot of people now I really don't want to start later, i.e. I have a lot of autonomy now and would like to keep that. That was certainly a blunt statement, but it's one thing that has made me happy with my current job - autonomy for me. Even with overlapping, stacked upon stack layers of bureacracy I'm largely independent provided I do things lawfully.

Pharmacy is interesting because it is one of the healthcare professions I am aware of. My experience with pharmacists has always been positive, and they have always been able to answer my questions with thoughtfulness. They possess a body of knowledge that I too would like to possess, and I would like to be in a position to do so in a helpful, positive manner, i.e. helping the sick get well. Even though I've never been a pharmacist (obviously) the concept of their work, particularly the hurdles over which one has to jump to become a pharmacist, are much more palatable for someone in my current position. There are certain drawbacks - classes I didn't expect to have to take and really don't care to take. That in and of itself would push back my ability to even apply to pharmacy school potentially a year later than I'd be able to apply to medical school. That puts me, assuming hypothetically that I'm accepted to both the first time I apply, either completing my intern year in medicine or graduating pharmacy school. At which point I'd have at least two years of residency left, or I'd be an acutal pharmacist ready to go to work. If I did a pharmacy residency it would nearly equalize things.

The fact is I'm not sure where to go at this point. Botany would probably be easier than physics II, but calculus would be a serious pain in the butt. I've had micro, numerous psychs, A&P, zoology, gen. chem. umpteen business courses with econ, acct, stats, and all that other fun stuff. Years ago in college I wasn't all that great at math first failing college algebra in summer session 1 and taking it again in summer session 2 with an A. Frankly, a difference in instructors was all it took, and I wish I hadn't been to stubborn to drop the class. To pursue that much advanced work (calculus) I almost feel as if I'd have to take algebra all over again just to refamiliarize myself with it and then I suppose trigonometry.
🙁 Perhaps the hurdles of pharmacy school may be a taller than I imagined. 😕

 

[wes011]

Bob - I am 30 years old and looking to start Pharmacy School at the age of 31. I graduated with a degree in chemistry back in 2001 but needed to mature before I started this. Now I am married with a kid but am completely stoked about doing this and I will do it.

I am not trying to persuade you one way or the other, just giving you some unbiased information that I have in this brain of mine and pass on additional information of my friend's experience. My best friend told me the other day that if he had to do it over again, he's be a PA or a "pill pushing pharmacist". You have to remember even though you like the autonomy your ass is on the line and it isn't if you get named in a suit, it is when when you are an MD.

This is largely why I'm second guessing medical school. Now to qualify that I don't think that I'd have any trouble learning what it takes to be a physician or doing the work. That said, I really can't imagine doing medicine outside of primary care, and although there will always be primary care physicians the growth of midlevel providers is a legitimate threat to the physician workforce. It's only good business sense. Midlevels can take care of the vast majority of minor problems that people go to their PCP with and be reimbursed at a lower cost. I too have, and still somewhat, entertain the thought of being a PA, but laregly (nothing against PAs) because I don't answer to a whole lot of people now I really don't want to start later, i.e. I have a lot of autonomy now and would like to keep that. That was certainly a blunt statement, but it's one thing that has made me happy with my current job - autonomy for me. Even with overlapping, stacked upon stack layers of bureacracy I'm largely independent provided I do things lawfully.

Pharmacy is interesting because it is one of the healthcare professions I am aware of. My experience with pharmacists has always been positive, and they have always been able to answer my questions with thoughtfulness. They possess a body of knowledge that I too would like to possess, and I would like to be in a position to do so in a helpful, positive manner, i.e. helping the sick get well. Even though I've never been a pharmacist (obviously) the concept of their work, particularly the hurdles over which one has to jump to become a pharmacist, are much more palatable for someone in my current position. There are certain drawbacks - classes I didn't expect to have to take and really don't care to take. That in and of itself would push back my ability to even apply to pharmacy school potentially a year later than I'd be able to apply to medical school. That puts me, assuming hypothetically that I'm accepted to both the first time I apply, either completing my intern year in medicine or graduating pharmacy school. At which point I'd have at least two years of residency left, or I'd be an acutal pharmacist ready to go to work. If I did a pharmacy residency it would nearly equalize things.

The fact is I'm not sure where to go at this point. Botany would probably be easier than physics II, but calculus would be a serious pain in the butt. I've had micro, numerous psychs, A&P, zoology, gen. chem. umpteen business courses with econ, acct, stats, and all that other fun stuff. Years ago in college I wasn't all that great at math first failing college algebra in summer session 1 and taking it again in summer session 2 with an A. Frankly, a difference in instructors was all it took, and I wish I hadn't been to stubborn to drop the class. To pursue that much advanced work (calculus) I almost feel as if I'd have to take algebra all over again just to refamiliarize myself with it and then I suppose trigonometry.
🙁 Perhaps the hurdles of pharmacy school may be a taller than I imagined. 😕

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

Wes011, I do appreciate your feedback. Don't think I don't. Thank you, and you and I are in the same age group. It's real world insight that is important rather than these fantasy questions that I sometimes see on these board like "Will I get to wear a long white coat, or will I have to wear a short white coat as a _______ (insert profession)?"

Physician
1. taking the 4 remaining prereqs I need to apply to med school - ones that I would never take otherwise
2. convincing some random person or group that I am what they see as "worthy" of being a doctor and I really don't like being subjected to someone else's whims like that
3. ceasing to have an income, i.e. no ability to act as a free person
4. incurring debt
5. choosing and getting matched to a choice residency - not top tier but one I'd like to be at
6. finding a worthwhile job, i.e. having to job search again and find a place comfortable for me
7. being able to be a primary care guy - will it still be doable then with enough patient volume to quickly pay off that debt and quickly resume living where I left off with insurance and midlevels

Pharmacist
1. same as above but more of them
2. same as above
3. same as above
4. same as above
5. working pharmacology formulas all the time if they really have to do that
6. same as above

 

[Passion4Sci]

Don't forget to add in your MD section:

Do really long rotations where you are at the mercy of whomever decides to send you wherever.

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

Don't forget to add in your MD section:

Do really long rotations where you are at the mercy of whomever decides to send you wherever.

I've already accepted that one. I kind of throw that in with the whole getting in and getting thru it thing. I consider the school years to be the easy part though.

 

[AStudentDoctor]

In response to your calclulus troubles:

Some PharmD programs allow you to pre-req a with College Algebra + Elementary Calculus instead of just Calculus I.
I would be surprised if most schools don't offer this option.

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

In response to your calclulus troubles:

Some PharmD programs allow you to pre-req a with College Algebra + Elementary Calculus instead of just Calculus I.
I would be surprised if most schools don't offer this option.

This would be all too helpful if they did. My luck is never that good. Thanks for the thoughts. I'll look into it.

 

[diastole]

I'm not sure when you completed your previous pre-reqs but keep in mind that they expire in some schools after five to seven years. If yours are old, make sure that you contact the schools you are interested in so you aren't hit with any nasty surprises when you get ready to apply.

 

[tahi193]

Don't let Calc hold you back. I had trouble with it, but I had a foreign professor who wasn't helpful. I retook it with another professor and did just fine. The key is to just find a really good professor who speaks clear English and is patient. You can do it.

 

[xtsukiyox]

The fact is I'm not sure where to go at this point. Botany would probably be easier than physics II, but calculus would be a serious pain in the butt. I've had micro, numerous psychs, A&P, zoology, gen. chem. umpteen business courses with econ, acct, stats, and all that other fun stuff. Years ago in college I wasn't all that great at math first failing college algebra in summer session 1 and taking it again in summer session 2 with an A. Frankly, a difference in instructors was all it took, and I wish I hadn't been to stubborn to drop the class. To pursue that much advanced work (calculus) I almost feel as if I'd have to take algebra all over again just to refamiliarize myself with it and then I suppose trigonometry.
🙁 Perhaps the hurdles of pharmacy school may be a taller than I imagined. 😕

I really think you'd be OK without taking algebra all over again. Do you still have your book from the class? If not, head down to the library / Amazon / ebay and pick up an older version of what the class is using now. Try to work through some problems on your own, see if it's all Greek 😉 or whether you can work it out (maybe using the book's explanations).

I would suggest taking Trig before a Calc I & Calc II sequence, if you haven't, but I would suggest trying to review it on your own through a similar method. It's not entirely important to have a grasp of all the specific concepts presented, more how to work with algebraic equations and trig functions for derivations and such. However, it's not even necessary as a prereq for Brief Calc at the school I'm going to (a CC).

Brief Calc is, essentially, how to work with derivatives and integrals and what their applications are, without the rigorous derivations and such that are applicable to a math (or possibly engineering) major. I asked an econ major I knew who had tried to take Calc I & II but couldn't hack it (C / D). In essence, she said the Brief Calc professor understood he wasn't teaching to math majors and most people were there just to fulfill a requirement; the Calc I & II professors generally treat everyone in the classroom like a math major - find one with a good sense of humor. 🙂

If you still think you should retake College Algebra and Trig again before going on to Calc of whatever flavor, talk to one of the instructors who teaches Calc at your local college and see what s/he thinks. They may also have a placement test you can take to see what math you should be in, but I wouldn't recommend this route, as it can put up unnecessary road blocks should you decide to take Calc but score poorly on the test. (Which is not necessarily the best indicator anyway.)

I'm not sure which colleges you're interested in attending, but here are some of the ones I'm looking at:

University of Arizona only requires 1 semester of Calculus, which can be chosen from MATH 113 (Elements of Calculus, which looks to be similar to Brief Calc / what AStudentDoctor is calling "Elementary Calculus") or MATH 124 & MATH 125 - Calc I & II.
http://www.pharmacy.arizona.edu/programs/prePharm/requirements.php
http://garnet.ccit.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/schedule/schedule.cgi?MATHzz094zOpen

University of Washington only requires 1 semester of Calculus (3-4 semester credits), which I'd imagine would include Brief Calc / Elementary Calculus although I'd contact them to confirm.
http://depts.washington.edu/pha/students/prerequisites.html

Midwestern University Glendale also only requires 1 semester of Calculus (3 semester credits).
http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission/AZ_Pharmacy/AdmissionApply.html#prerequisites

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

I'm not sure when you completed your previous pre-reqs but keep in mind that they expire in some schools after five to seven years. If yours are old, make sure that you contact the schools you are interested in so you aren't hit with any nasty surprises when you get ready to apply.

Hmmm yeah it's been over eight years since I had college algebra and nearly that long since I had zoology and chemistry. Well, I'm sure not retaking them so I hope they're acceptable. If not Bob will be leaving the boards, lol.

 

[BacktoSchoolBob]

I really think you'd be OK without taking algebra all over again. Do you still have your book from the class? If not, head down to the library / Amazon / ebay and pick up an older version of what the class is using now. Try to work through some problems on your own, see if it's all Greek 😉 or whether you can work it out (maybe using the book's explanations).

I would suggest taking Trig before a Calc I & Calc II sequence, if you haven't, but I would suggest trying to review it on your own through a similar method. It's not entirely important to have a grasp of all the specific concepts presented, more how to work with algebraic equations and trig functions for derivations and such. However, it's not even necessary as a prereq for Brief Calc at the school I'm going to (a CC).

Brief Calc is, essentially, how to work with derivatives and integrals and what their applications are, without the rigorous derivations and such that are applicable to a math (or possibly engineering) major. I asked an econ major I knew who had tried to take Calc I & II but couldn't hack it (C / D). In essence, she said the Brief Calc professor understood he wasn't teaching to math majors and most people were there just to fulfill a requirement; the Calc I & II professors generally treat everyone in the classroom like a math major - find one with a good sense of humor. 🙂

If you still think you should retake College Algebra and Trig again before going on to Calc of whatever flavor, talk to one of the instructors who teaches Calc at your local college and see what s/he thinks. They may also have a placement test you can take to see what math you should be in, but I wouldn't recommend this route, as it can put up unnecessary road blocks should you decide to take Calc but score poorly on the test. (Which is not necessarily the best indicator anyway.)

I'm not sure which colleges you're interested in attending, but here are some of the ones I'm looking at:

University of Arizona only requires 1 semester of Calculus, which can be chosen from MATH 113 (Elements of Calculus, which looks to be similar to Brief Calc / what AStudentDoctor is calling "Elementary Calculus") or MATH 124 & MATH 125 - Calc I & II.
http://www.pharmacy.arizona.edu/programs/prePharm/requirements.php
http://garnet.ccit.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/schedule/schedule.cgi?MATHzz094zOpen

University of Washington only requires 1 semester of Calculus (3-4 semester credits), which I'd imagine would include Brief Calc / Elementary Calculus although I'd contact them to confirm.
http://depts.washington.edu/pha/students/prerequisites.html

Midwestern University Glendale also only requires 1 semester of Calculus (3 semester credits).
http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission/AZ_Pharmacy/AdmissionApply.html#prerequisites

Thank you. That was very kind of you to post the links and such too. 🙂

Btw, my quantitative analysis aka "business statistics" class was talk by a Chinese guy. I didn't have a clue what he was saying half the time, but he was funny when I did. It was also the easiest math I've ever had.

 

[koercive]

Good luck to you Bob. I have a friend who quit his day job after receiving a promotion to also go back to school to either do pre-med/pre-pharm. He was an econ major, so he has to start all his bio classes from scratch.

After doing well on your remaining pre-reqs, your GPA will be fairly competitive at most schools. But what will help you get into schools, in my opinion, is your maturity and extensive experiences that you listed.

You can always apply to both medical and pharmacy schools (some members here have done that) and go from there. Also remember that not all schools require the PCAT, so you can actually just take the MCAT and apply for pharmacy schools that don't require PCAT (ex: California schools, Purdue)