Current status of turf war with psychologists?

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What is the current status of the turf war with psychologists?

I thought that they were only able to prescribe meds in a few states. Then today I came across an article saying that they had admitting privileges in quite a few states as well as on-call responsibilities.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan04/fight.html

What is the real deal? If this is true, it's certainly alarming.
 
The reason it hasn't been implemented is because it's not practical.

You can't have a "captain of the ship" that doesn't fully understand how to completely care for the patient, and make medical decisions. Psychologists are not trained to do this, since they have not attended medical school and have not completed a rigorous medical internship and residency, and have not demonstrated medical competence by passing the USMLE or COMLEX.

It would be too time consuming and certainly not cost effective to have a physician overlooking all the medical management decisions of a psychologist. Not to mention dangerousness to the patient and a risk-management problem to the hospital, since many aspects of patient care may be overlooked from a medical standpoint.

In this sense, it is just more feasible to have a psychiatrist direct care.
 
The last bit from the article:

His message: "If we can get attending authority in state hospitals, it will change the nature of psychological practice. It will really elevate psychologists to the position they've been trained to do but have been prevented from doing." And if they win in California, he adds, maybe other states will follow suit.

----

Wow, they want all that without going to med school (4 yrs), without residency (4+ yrs) all because they "deserve it"? Utter nonsense.

We need to find out who the government officials are in California, the people that may be making some important decisions in the near future and write to them.
 
Calm down! Since the original decision was handed down, the California Court has since held that the case MUST be "construed narrowly" to include "clinically trained psychiatrists"! The case that tested the Capp decision, "Ford v. Norton", was the result of a PsychOLOGIST releasing a patient early from a 72 forced hospital commital. The patient, upon release, attacked a relative; and, the relative sued the Psychologist for malpractice. The Psychologist--in an odd twist of fate--argued that the hospital ought to be held solely to blame, since he was not qualified to make the decision in a clinical setting (amazing that everyone wants the money and power; yet, no one wants the legal ramifications :laugh: ). Anyway, the court agreed and, therefore, Capp was, in essence, struck down.
 
Yes that did happen, but since then things have changed. I do not know all the particulars, but I personally have admitting privileges and treating privileges at St Josephs Hospital(s) in Ca. I believe there was a lawsuit last year, and the result was that all acute care facilities in Ca are now mandated to allow properly trained psychologists full privileges. I can see the potential problems with this very clearly, and I understand your concern. If you wish we can have a professional dialogue here regarding what I do and don't do etc... as a member of the medical staff at a large hospital??
 
BY KAREN KERSTING
Monitor Staff
Print version: page 54

Some of California's neediest mental health patients stand to benefit from a recent regulatory development in that state. Psychologists in California now can manage the care of patients with serious mental illnesses in acute-care hospitals, thanks to new state regulations that recognize psychologists' expertise in diagnosing and treating mental disorders.

The new regulations, issued by the state's Department of Health Services (DHS) in April, allow psychologists to direct patient care as medical staff members at acute-care hospitals in the state. For example, they can now independently make such decisions as when to admit, transfer and discharge patients. Previously, the regulations allowed only psychiatrists to do this work and to serve as attending clinicians, despite a 1978 state law that granted psychologists full clinical privileges.

"California psychologists working in hospital settings, and well within the scope of their licenses, will be able to fully serve their patients as attending clinicians," says Russ Newman, PhD, JD, APA's executive director for professional practice.

Fighting for enforcement

The rule change follows longstanding efforts by psychologists, including APA and the California Psychological Association (CPA), to enforce the 1978 law and a 1990 California Supreme Court affirmation of the law in a case filed by the California Association of Psychology Providers (CAPP), says psychologist Bill Safarjan, PhD, of Psychology Shield, a nonprofit organization of psychologists and other health-care advocates devoted to improving patient care in California's state-operated mental hospitals. The California Supreme Court ruled in the 1990 case, CAPP v. Rank, that psychologists have the legal authority to practice independently in both private and public health facilities. However, state regulations still prevented psychologists from directing patient care in California state mental hospitals.

So, in 1996, CPA pushed through the state legislature a bill requiring state-owned and state-operated health-care facilities to establish procedures enabling psychologists to apply for medical staff membership and clinical privileges. However, state hospitals resisted change. So in 1998, the state legislature passed even tougher CPA-backed legislation that mandated medical staff status for psychologists and prohibited discrimination against them. However, psychologists were still prevented from directing patient care in state hospitals.

Recent negotiations between DHS and Psychology Shield, supported by a number of organizations and individuals, including the APA Practice Organization, CPA and the psychologists' union (AFSCME Local 2620), brought about the new regulations, Safarjan says. Psychologists' new ability to direct patient care improves the outlook for people with serious mental illnesses, Safarjan says.

"In a lot of psychiatric hospitals, treatments are primarily medications that just suppress symptoms," Safarjan says. "But psychologists take a much different tack on this. Psychologists use methods that are better at improving quality of life and looking for recovery, including anger management techniques and social learning approaches."

There's also a budgetary argument for allowing psychologists to manage care for state hospital patients, says psychologist Charles Faltz, PhD, CPA director of professional affairs. Based on state salaries, psychiatrists cost taxpayers two or three times more than psychologists for the same mental health services.

"CPA has made progress by educating state legislators that more cost-effective care could be provided by psychologists," Faltz says. "And key state legislators, especially Judy Chu, a psychologist, were invaluable to our efforts."

Following suit

The California legislature and courts have been leaders in recognizing the important role that psychologists can and should play in mental hospitals, Newman says. Seventeen other states and the District of Columbia have enacted laws allowing psychologists hospital privileges, he adds.

California is setting an example for the rest of the country, Faltz says. Because the California law mandates that psychologists be placed on hospital staffs and used in the full scope of their practice, the law sets a strong example, he says.

"The fact that this is a law that has a mandate, instead of being permissive, means that if this law is upheld in California, it strengthens psychology laws throughout the country," says Faltz.

Despite the progress marked by the rule change, California psychologists can't let up their guard quite yet, says Alan Nessman, special counsel in the Practice Organization's Office of Legal and Regulatory Affairs. First, at press time, Psychology Shield was still negotiating with DHS regarding regulations that need to be changed for other types of facilities to give psychologists full privileges in accordance with the law (the current regulations only cover acute-care hospitals). Second, the Union of American Physicians and Dentists and the California Psychiatric Association filed a lawsuit against the state in May challenging the new regulations.
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This topic--or similar topics--have been "debated" ad nauseum on SDN, and to no avail; therefore, I refuse to be baited on the issue. My only point in my previous post was that, as soon as a lawsuit was brought, the Psychologist was all too happy to point the finger of blame at the hospital/psychiatrist. To me, it seems that the APA wants all the perks and none of the REAL responsibility! I say "Welcome to our world"! Perhaps if enough psychologists have to pitch-in to the malpractice insurance pools, then our premiums will go down?!(**rolls eyes skeptically**)
 
psisci said:
Yes that did happen, but since then things have changed. I do not know all the particulars, but I personally have admitting privileges and treating privileges at St Josephs Hospital(s) in Ca. I believe there was a lawsuit last year, and the result was that all acute care facilities in Ca are now mandated to allow properly trained psychologists full privileges. I can see the potential problems with this very clearly, and I understand your concern. If you wish we can have a professional dialogue here regarding what I do and don't do etc... as a member of the medical staff at a large hospital??

What precisely do you mean by treating privileges? Are you prescribing meds, or ECT? Ordering tests?
 
No, we can only practice within the confines of our license. I do alot of consulting with attendings, I do alot of assessing patients for mental health problems, helping get a clear Dx, providing behavioral health interventions in the hospital setting etc..
I have advanced training in med psych and pharmacology so I do med assessments, but the only orders I can write are for restraint and/or behavioral interventions (IE. take pt in wheelchair out into the sun for 30min/day).
For what it is worth I am not trying to bait. I am a MOD, and am just trying to clear up some misinformation that started this thread as well as engaging in some real conversation about this topic.

🙂
 
psisci said:
Yes that did happen, but since then things have changed. I do not know all the particulars, but I personally have admitting privileges and treating privileges at St Josephs Hospital(s) in Ca. I believe there was a lawsuit last year, and the result was that all acute care facilities in Ca are now mandated to allow properly trained psychologists full privileges. I can see the potential problems with this very clearly, and I understand your concern. If you wish we can have a professional dialogue here regarding what I do and don't do etc... as a member of the medical staff at a large hospital??

psisci-

Are you a physician?

If you are not: How can you tell yourself you are a part of the medical (MEDICAL) staff when you are in fact NOT? Have you undergone specific medical training (medical school or nurse program)?

Anything can happen to patients on the psych ward, the patient can have a severe reaction to an injection, infection at the injection site, and others that psychiatrists as physicians have been trained to respond too. How are psychologists trained to respond to emergency psych problems? Do you take a weekend course or something to appease your new laws?

And a personal question: Do you not feel any apprehension at all for the responsibility you are taking on? You are not a doctor but you want to act like one, doesn't that scare you? I am on my last rotation as an MSIV and if they threw me into surgery where I was first surgeon you bet your ass I would not be comfortable, since I am about a 5 year residency away from being a surgeon.

Are psychologists required to take any medical exams before setting foot in a hospital with a giant attending badge on their chest?
 
Hello...I am a psychologist who usually keeps to the Clinical Psychology forum but I check in over here to see what I can learn. To be upfront, I wholly value the role of the psychiatrist and I don't pretend to have any sort of true understanding of the medical field even as it applies to psychiatry/psychology. I completely disagree with psychologists obtaining prescription privileges, though many of my peers think it's great. I have seen turf wars in action and won't deny that I feel territorial at times, even though I think turf wars realy just do a disservice to the patient. However, going back to the original post, I am confused about the current debate on this thread. I currently work in a state where doctoral-level psychologists have psychiatric admitting privileges, on-call privileges, and can ultimately authorize involuntary commitments. I have also worked in a state where this was not the case, and never really understood the argument as to why the psychiatrist should be the sole authority in every case. On the other hand, my state is also doing a pilot study aimed at ultimately allowing LCSWs the authority to conduct involuntary commitment evals and authorize hospitalization as a result -- and I feel irritated by this because I believe their training is so often sub-par. Is it just that we all feel that our particular training is superior? Is it a lack of understanding or appreciation about the nature of other disciplines?

I would never want to operate in isolation without the ongoing contribution of and consultation with a psychiatrist -- and ideally a social worker. I would never want anyone to assume that because I had admitting privileges that I was in any way qualified to even ask the correct questions around medical issues. But there are things I would never want a psychiatrist or social worker to assume that they can do better than I can. A multi-disciplinary team is the best option by far because everybody offers a unique perspective. I don't mean to sound like we should all join hands and sign kum-ba-yah, but I've actually seen it work well.

So, based on the experience and opinions of those in this forum, what is this turf war all about?
 
solideliquid, I think your point was primarily meant as a put down, but I will answer as though it was not. I have taken all basic sciences course and medical provider has taken at about the PA/NP level, and have 1 year of clinical medicine. That is not really my point, as psychologists without this training can serve on medical staffs, and provide services without the scope of their license. I am trying to give information on how things are, as that was the point of the OP, now how we think things should be. I am a member of medical staffs because I have gone through credentialling for each hospital, and been given privileges as either acting or consulting member (depending), based on the hospital's current medical staff bylaws. This really only gives me access to practice psychology in the hospital, not to play MD. I would only ever admit one of my patients if it were a psych related issue that needed acute care, and even then I would be paired with an MD to provide Tx; me behavioral heath tx, them Rx. It is really not that big of a deal, but there is room for a psychologist to make bad decisions with this level of care, but it would not be medical errors as we do not Rx or order labs/do procedures.

🙂
 
psisci,

What's the status of RxP for psychologists in California?
 
psisci,

My post was not at all meant to be a put down, I didn't mean to offend you in anyway. I'm trying to understand your mentality in this situation we find ourselves in.

When you are in the hospital, do you find that most of the MDs you are working with are cooperative with you in a friendly manner? Or do you encounter resistance?

P.S. If any shots were fired, you fired first with your initial post.


Jon Snow-

If you have a PhD then you are entitiled to DR. in front of your name, but don't forget to add the PhD at the end. You are not a physician and that's what I meant as I am sure you know.
 
psisci said:
No, we can only practice within the confines of our license. I do alot of consulting with attendings, I do alot of assessing patients for mental health problems, helping get a clear Dx, providing behavioral health interventions in the hospital setting etc..
I have advanced training in med psych and pharmacology so I do med assessments, but the only orders I can write are for restraint and/or behavioral interventions (IE. take pt in wheelchair out into the sun for 30min/day).
For what it is worth I am not trying to bait. I am a MOD, and am just trying to clear up some misinformation that started this thread as well as engaging in some real conversation about this topic.

🙂
I am curious Psisci- can you make a dx of Axis III in the chart officially or you have to go by what the primary MD says? What happens when you make a dx of ... due to ...GMC in Axis I? Do you leave it for the psychiatrist or the primary?
What does your contract w/ the hospital says about this?
 
Most MD's are more than happy to work with me, with the rare exception...usually psychiatrists. Axis III Dx?? Good question. It is not an issue for me as I work in general acute facilities, not psychiatric facilities. I provide behavioral health care in a general medical hospital, so the Axis 3 is already given 99% of the time, but all people really care about is Axis 1 to dictate proper Tx, and that I can do well.
No harm done solideliquid, I did fire first although I did not see it that way when I did. I was only offering info.
I can't believe Anasazi has stayed out of this 😉
 
mdblue said:
I am curious Psisci- can you make a dx of Axis III in the chart officially or you have to go by what the primary MD says? What happens when you make a dx of ... due to ...GMC in Axis I? Do you leave it for the psychiatrist or the primary?
What does your contract w/ the hospital says about this?


This statement is essentially what I was trying to get at. There's no doubt a psychologist can competently assess a psychiatric patient, and even make an informed decision on whether to admit a patient. This isn't a big issue for me.

But know that there is a large piece of medical information (a background program, if you will) that physicians have been trained to have running at all times during their assessments, interviews and treatments.

When I made the comment about the practicality of having psychologists admitting. I meant just that. Admitting, discharging, and transferring are not big deals. Restraint and seclusion is. We nearly had a patient die two weekends ago while in restraints...luckily, stridor was picked up by the MD who re-evaluated the patient; the pt was intubated and sent to the ICU. I am sure that if it was a psychologist making this same assessment, they would have died.

This and the fact the myriad medical problems are often present in psychiatric patients assumes competent medical care. To have a psychologist skirt this entire issue while admitting a patient is impractical and dangerous.
 
psisci said:
I can't believe Anasazi has stayed out of this 😉

I was actually conducting therapy late tonight in our outpatient clinic. Yes, we do this on occasion (therapy) unbeknownst to many a psychologist.

How else would we pay for our Porsches, beach houses, and 17-foot boats?

😉
 
Anasazi23 said:
I was actually conducting therapy late tonight in our outpatient clinic. Yes, we do this on occasion (therapy) unbeknownst to many a psychologist.

How else would we pay for our Porsches, beach houses, and 17-foot boats?

😉

Interesting. What kind of therapy?
 
psisci said:
Most MD's are more than happy to work with me, with the rare exception...usually psychiatrists. Axis III Dx?? Good question. It is not an issue for me as I work in general acute facilities, not psychiatric facilities. I provide behavioral health care in a general medical hospital, so the Axis 3 is already given 99% of the time, but all people really care about is Axis 1 to dictate proper Tx, and that I can do well.
No harm done solideliquid, I did fire first although I did not see it that way when I did. I was only offering info.
I can't believe Anasazi has stayed out of this 😉
So what about Axis I secondary to GMC? Don't you even consider it in your differential? W/O even considering it, how can you possibly come up w/ a tx plan and "dictate proper treatment"?
As Anasazi has pointed out there are too many medical variables in a psych pt. The cartesian dualism unfortunately does not exist and the pts don't read DSM. 😉
 
Solideliquid said:
psisci-

Are you a physician?

If you are not: How can you tell yourself you are a part of the medical (MEDICAL) staff when you are in fact NOT? Have you undergone specific medical training (medical school or nurse program)?

Anything can happen to patients on the psych ward, the patient can have a severe reaction to an injection, infection at the injection site, and others that psychiatrists as physicians have been trained to respond too. How are psychologists trained to respond to emergency psych problems? Do you take a weekend course or something to appease your new laws?

And a personal question: Do you not feel any apprehension at all for the responsibility you are taking on? You are not a doctor but you want to act like one, doesn't that scare you? I am on my last rotation as an MSIV and if they threw me into surgery where I was first surgeon you bet your ass I would not be comfortable, since I am about a 5 year residency away from being a surgeon.

Are psychologists required to take any medical exams before setting foot in a hospital with a giant attending badge on their chest?


At my hospital, there are two optometrists and several dentists who are considered part of the medical staff with fairly liberal, if not full, clinical privileges. Sorry, but an optometrist is nothing more than a glorified technician -- a sophisticated well-educated optician -- not a physician, yet they have RxPs in most states and hospital privis in some. I think dentists are well trained, but non OMFS dentists having attending status? If these practitioners, and others like NPs and DPMs can have attending status, why not competent PhD/PsyD psychologists?

I'm a psychiatrist, but I am not against working side-by-side with psychologists in hospitals. I worry about their training, but my guess is, most ethical and competent psychologists would never undertake any tx for which he/she feels he/she is not qualified.

My two cents...
Zack
 
PublicHealth said:
Interesting. What kind of therapy?

Of course, it depends on the patient. Tonight's patient is only semi "psychologically-minded." She seems to respond better to light cognitive behavioral, and supportive psychotherapy.

Werman's book helped me in establishing a good beginning supportive psychotherapy understanding.
 
ProZackMI said:
I think dentists are well trained, but non OMFS dentists having attending status? If these practitioners, and others like NPs and DPMs can have attending status, why not competent PhD/PsyD psychologists?

I'm a psychiatrist, but I am not against working side-by-side with psychologists in hospitals. I worry about their training, but my guess is, most ethical and competent psychologists would never undertake any tx for which he/she feels he/she is not qualified.

My two cents...
Zack

I, too, am not against working with psychologists at the hospital. We also have dentists, psychologists, and other practitioners working with us....and they may even be called "attendings" (although this is not generally the standard practice in a hospital. "Attending" is reserved for MD/DO physicians.) As such, residents don't take orders from them, and they don't have final words in treatment of the patients, unless they're specifically their "own." i.e. patient admitted to the podiatry service per se. The assumption here is that if a patient is admitted to the podiatry service, the podiatrists take care of just about everything that has to do with the patient...meds, surgery, everything.

With psychology, this wouldn't be the case. They'd still need a psychiatrist to check everything, and prescribe and medically assess the patient when necessary.

In the way in which it's been discussed, a podiatrist, for example, would be an 'attending podiatrist'...not a "regular" medical attending - which includes psychiatrists.

In lighter news, the Yanks are up 6-0 in the 5th.
Go Yanks!
 
Somehow, with my incompetent training I am still the preferred clinician at the hospital...as measured by medical staff f/u survey which includes the (only 2) psychiatrists within a 100 mile radius. I gave a talk on psychpharm today for a local hospital's medical staff..the only psychiatrist on staff refused because he believes in herbals above medical tx. There is trend here. I enjoy working with psychiatrists, and have learned alot from them, but not all is as you want it to be in the real world these days, and the need is being filled by those who are willing.
 
Unfortunately, I'm very much in the 'real world.' What I see there is why I got out of psychology as a profession...I saw it being destroyed by itself. I'm afraid that as more and more psychologists bill themselves as mini-psychiatrists, that the severe problems they have with their own profession (unchecked overgrowth, low reimbursement, overwhelming feminization of the profession, and many others) will leach into psychiatry. That's something we can't afford.
 
Yes you are, and you have some good points. A guy has to make a living though, and this is what I am successful at.......
 
Unchecked overgrowth, low reimbursement, overwhelming feminization of the profession -- all absolutely true. Don't forget the crappy graduate schools turning out incompetent psychologists at an alarming rate. Psychiatry as a field has overall done an excellent job at gatekeeping and protecting the profession from the encroachment of other fields. And I don't blame you for being territorial about Rx privileges for psychologists -- that shouldn't be allowed to happen (too bad it already is -- perhaps that's the real turf tthat should be protected). Psychology has done an utterly lousy job to protect itself -- we have done nothing to carve out a unique niche for ourselves or assert and protect what we do well. Can't disagree with any of that.

What does all this have to do with the initial topic of this thread? Does all this really just boil down to protecting the turf? Is it concern about the incompetence of psychology training? If so, that is too sweeping of a generalization. Yes, I have worked with terribly-trained psychologists and psychiatrists who have no common sense. You can't weed them out just by saying you'll disregard an entire profession just because some of them suck.
 
All this blather about who can't possibily do what and how only people with X degree can possibily do this, yet there are masses of people out there whose mental health problems are going untreated by ANYBODY.
 
psych101 said:
Unchecked overgrowth, low reimbursement, overwhelming feminization of the profession -- all absolutely true. Don't forget the crappy graduate schools turning out incompetent psychologists at an alarming rate. Psychiatry as a field has overall done an excellent job at gatekeeping and protecting the profession from the encroachment of other fields. And I don't blame you for being territorial about Rx privileges for psychologists -- that shouldn't be allowed to happen (too bad it already is -- perhaps that's the real turf tthat should be protected). Psychology has done an utterly lousy job to protect itself -- we have done nothing to carve out a unique niche for ourselves or assert and protect what we do well. Can't disagree with any of that.

What does all this have to do with the initial topic of this thread? Does all this really just boil down to protecting the turf? Is it concern about the incompetence of psychology training? If so, that is too sweeping of a generalization. Yes, I have worked with terribly-trained psychologists and psychiatrists who have no common sense. You can't weed them out just by saying you'll disregard an entire profession just because some of them suck.

Great points. To sum it up, I'm just afraid for a couple reasons...
1. The slippery slope argument. Once rights are given, they're never taken away. If RxP turns out to be a dangerous disaster....we'll all (including patients) have to live with it forever.
On a financial note, why should I have any confidence that psychology will regulate itself by not putting out too many prescribing psychologists, destroying the market value and devaluing the profession as a whole, when they haven't been able to regulate even themselves?

2. Confusing patients by having multiple similar yet very different practitioners is bad for patient care. These are, as a group, people with less defenses than others. A psychologist billing themselves as an rxp psychologist, not being completely honest with patients, missing important medical diagnoses makes the mental health profession look bad as a whole. Something neither of us can afford.
 
psisci said:
Somehow, with my incompetent training I am still the preferred clinician at the hospital...as measured by medical staff f/u survey which includes the (only 2) psychiatrists within a 100 mile radius. I gave a talk on psychpharm today for a local hospital's medical staff..the only psychiatrist on staff refused because he believes in herbals above medical tx. There is trend here. I enjoy working with psychiatrists, and have learned alot from them, but not all is as you want it to be in the real world these days, and the need is being filled by those who are willing.
Asking the same Q Psisci- 😉
What about Axis I secondary to GMC? Don't you even consider it in your differential?
And w/o ruling in/out these dx how can you formulate a tx plan?
 
Um..like I said I have some medical training...read please. I am at least as competent as a NP/PA is this regard, but much more willing to defer to MDs.

🙂
 
Jon Snow said:
Not that I run around introducing myself as "Dr. Jon Snow," but I can just imagine MDs introducing themselves to patients, "Hi, I'm Dr. Bradford Pitzker III, M.D."

LOL


Well I supposed we have that privilege. And I didn't know PA's, Nurses, and nurses assistance's can prescribe meds.
 
psisci said:
You didn't know PA's prescribe??

Is there an echo in here? lol

I have never worked with a PA that can sign a script here in Georgia, they all need the attending to sign scripts and charts.
 
Jon Snow said:
To be stupid?


What took you so long Mr. Insult?

On the PA issue, I did a google search, turns out PAs can prescribe in 47 states and Wash. DC, you learn something new everyday.

In light of the above post by Dr. Snow, I am not here to insult anyone or put anyone down. I'm very loyal to my new profession and since I am just getting into it I suppose I am being a little territorial. Especially toward people I perceive to be encroaching on my field who did not go through the same training programs.
 
Jon Snow said:
I think psychologists are generally trained to look out for behavioral disturbances secondary to medical conditions. At least, I know for sure that health psychologists and neuropsychologists are trained to do so. To throw my answer into the ring, I, and every psychologist that I have ever worked with, ALWAYS consider medical conditions when evaluating behavioral states.
The reason I asked the Q was apparently Psisci was acting as a indep consultant to the med/surg attdg (at least that was the impression I got). You have to know more than the referring doc that's why you are being consulted ergo you can not defer the Axis I sec to GMC dx to them. That's my concern because med/surg docs don't care about psych issues in general and pt safety can be severely compromised in these cases and can be a fertile ground for malpractice.
As for your earlier post, please ck out the new breed of psychiatrists who are radically different than people trained in 70s and 80s(some of them are in this forum 😉 . They are fully competent in med/neuro issues and it's fast becoming a std of training. Psychiatrists are "real docs'-maybe the reason you have not seen them in action becase often free-standing psych hospitals are not licensed to tx medically compromised pts. The place where I work is not even licensed to run IV-so these are more of systems issue, rather than indv competency.
🙂
 
Solideliquid said:
Is there an echo in here? lol

I have never worked with a PA that can sign a script here in Georgia, they all need the attending to sign scripts and charts.

Amazing. I have attached a link to help you with your education.

WHO NEEDS DOCTORS

Your future physician might not be an MD –
And you may be better off.

http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/news/2005jan/31_us_news.html
 
If I did not know more than they did about Dx and Rx for psych then they would not consult me. Once again I work in a general hospital, not psych, and its related clinics. There is no psychiatrist on staff. Prior to this I worked 5 years inpatient directly with psychiatrists.
 
Jon Snow said:
The "real docs" comment was in jest. I like psychiatry. I think it's a good field. I've seen psychiatrists working at full capacity (my employment thus far has been at university based hospitals).

Just because new psychiatrists have expanded their expertise doesn't mean I need to pack up and go home. Also, being "fully competent in med/neuro issues" is fairly much impossible. That's why there are specialty clinics in neuromuscular diseases, autism, epilepsy, and so on. I do understand though that neuropsychiatry is becoming a more popular specialty, though it is not wide spread. The focus/expertise is still different across psychiatry, neurology, neuropsychiatry, health psychology, and neuropsychology.
I am glad that we are on the same page about psychiatrists 🙂
Full competency in IM/Neuro means that they are fully trained in identifying neuro and IM issues and do emergency mgt followed by appropriate referral. This is in sharp contrast w/ the psychs from 60s/70s when they wouldn't even touch a pt.
Superspecialty is becoming the norm, and that applies to IM/Neuro. Even psychiatry is being superspecialized e.g. I wouldn't consider myself educated enough to manage a ED pt long-term though I know the principles of tx and probably can mge the emergency issues. That's why the concept of medical psychologists sounds paradoxical(going backwards) and politically motivated to me.
You don't need to pack up and go home just because there are better MDs around. There is a great need of trained neuropsychologists and even good clinical psychologists and I appreciate the importance of having them in my team. But everyone has a place and a certain role to play in the tx team-overstepping the limits doesnot foster good for pt-care and interspecialty camaraderie.
 
psisci said:
If I did not know more than they did about Dx and Rx for psych then they would not consult me. Once again I work in a general hospital, not psych, and its related clinics. There is no psychiatrist on staff. Prior to this I worked 5 years inpatient directly with psychiatrists.
I appreciate your reply Psisci. 🙂
Lack of psych knowledge among med/surg MDs is almost laughable. A lot of it has to do w/ stigma in general. It shouldn't have any corelation w/ your level of competency.
I am curious about medicare billing of your pts by the hospital-is it thru the primary MDs or they acknowledge your service( acting as a consultant)?
 
http://www.abpn.com/

What kind of board-like exams do psychologists (MS, PhD, PsyD level) have to take in order to have attending privileges and prescription privileges?
 
They bill directly for my services; I have my own UPIN #. Psychology itself is a specialty so our board certs are not manditory like in Medicine. To be on a medical staff we have to pass credentialling byt the hospital cred cmte, of which I have served on for 2 years in the past. It is no simpler or difficult for a psychologist to get privileged than it is for an MD/DO.
Dr. Snow...good to have you back!

😉
 
Jon Snow said:
Isn't the expansion of psychiatry into neurology similar to the expansion of psychology into prescription drugs (I assume that's what you mean by medical psychologists)? Neurologists are better at neurology than psychiatrists, yet psychiatrists now insist they are competent in that area.

As in the link provided, psychiatrists have been required to establish clinical competence in neurology for years, when board certified. Hence the American Board of Psychiatry and NEUROLOGY.

A large portion of our boards are neurology. We do a minimum of two months neurology in residency.

We're not "expanding" into neurology. We've been there for a long, long time, as they have with us.
 
psisci said:
They bill directly for my services; I have my own UPIN #. Psychology itself is a specialty so our board certs are not manditory like in Medicine. To be on a medical staff we have to pass credentialling byt the hospital cred cmte, of which I have served on for 2 years in the past. It is no simpler or difficult for a psychologist to get privileged than it is for an MD/DO.
Dr. Snow...good to have you back!

😉
Oh..I was confused 😕 .
I thought when you are working as a mental health consultant w/ your training in psychopharm, you are essentially acting as a psych MD recommending primary MDs about bio-psycho-social tx of the concerned pt.
Thanks for the clarification. 🙂
 
Anasazi23 said:
As in the link provided, psychiatrists have been required to establish clinical competence in neurology for years, when board certified. Hence the American Board of Psychiatry and NEUROLOGY.

A large portion of our boards are neurology. We do a minimum of two months neurology in residency.

We're not "expanding" into neurology. We've been there for a long, long time, as they have with us.
Moderator..ignorance is bliss. 😉
 
Psychiatric News August 6, 2004
Volume 39 Number 15
© 2004 American Psychiatric Association
p. 39


One-Trick Training?
Alex Braiman, M.D.
Farmington, N.M.
After I received my 50-year distinguished fellow award at APA's 2004 annual meeting in May, there was time for thought on the flight back to New Mexico and my practice. APA has become a polarized organization, perhaps a reflection of the larger society, but it has tilted too far toward the advocacy of unsupported "biologic" diagnostic and treatment practices that corrode its efficacy and leadership.
We have trained a generation of psychiatrists who are "one-trick ponies," with no arrows in their quiver after pharmacy and "rational polypharmacy" fail their patients. Perhaps that is why we are so threatened now that New Mexico and Louisiana have granted prescription privileges to psychologists.
It is ironic that we are witnessing serious challenges to the scientific integrity of studies supporting the FDA approval of the SSRI class of antidepressants at a time when an unsilent majority of us go along with the pretense that this is evidence-based psychiatry. The editors of Lancet wrote in the April 4 issue that "selective reporting of favourable research should be unimaginable."
It is too easy to fault the drug companies. There are too many of us whose integrity has been compromised by grant support or honoraria for the rest of us to be able to trust their advice. The late George Engel, M.D., whom many of us consider the primary advocate of the biopsychosocial approach, would consider current statements about neuro-bio-chemical-genetic causality of mental disorders regressive.
I consider myself fortunate to be able to continue to practice psychiatry now that I am retired from teaching and lucky that I received my award before the name of APA changes, perhaps to the American Bipolar Association.
 
There will always be some misinformed people who will see chiropracters for back pain, podiatrists for a broken foot, nurse practitioners for gyn exams, psychologists for meds, naturopedists for cancer, etc. But the vast majority of patients know that medical doctors are the experts in their field. Medical doctors will continue to preferably refer to medical doctors. I don't think that there will be much of a "turf war", because most patients would prefer a doctor's expertise.
 
duce444 said:
There will always be some misinformed people who will see chiropracters for back pain, podiatrists for a broken foot, nurse practitioners for gyn exams, psychologists for meds, naturopedists for cancer, etc. But the vast majority of patients know that medical doctors are the experts in their field. Medical doctors will continue to preferably refer to medical doctors. I don't think that there will be much of a "turf war", because most patients would prefer a doctor's expertise.


I completely agree with you, and in fact I have thought the same way for a long time. Which is probably why when the psychologists try to act in an MD capacity they have to explain to patients all day long the difference between them and a physician.

Watch as the non-MDs come back with a witty comment like: "People DO go to chiropractors for back pain!! What were you doing during all those years of medical school?????"
 
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