D.O. (2006) needs app advice!

[Budd Chiari]

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If one applies to ACGME programs that are non-linked, and also AOA internships, then one would be effectively knocked out of matching to linked ACGME programs should they successfully match AOA.

Is that correct? Is there a way around this?

Another question. Do ACGME programs have a way to tell that you've applied to AOA programs? I ask because I've heard that linked ACGME programs may not want to consider you if you've applied AOA (and understandably so, since if you match AOA you are kicked out of the ACGME match).

Thanks for the help 🙂

 

[rad_one]

Your first statement is false. If you apply to PGY-2 ACGME spots and AOA internships, you can match in both matches as long as the start dates are different (i.e.- 2006 for the internship and 2007 residency). I did this myself, so this is not hearsay.

I don't know the answer to the 2nd question.

Rad

 

[Budd Chiari]

Your first statement is false. If you apply to PGY-2 ACGME spots and AOA internships, you can match in both matches as long as the start dates are different (i.e.- 2006 for the internship and 2007 residency). I did this myself, so this is not hearsay.

I don't know the answer to the 2nd question.

Rad

Sorry I said that wrong. What I'm meant is that if I apply linked (PGY-1 programs) as well as osteopathic internships, and I match to an internship, then I cannot start as a PGY-1 (the start dates are the same). But does this kick me totally out of the ACGME match or only out of PGY-1 positions?

This is confusing.

 

[DrMom]

It kicks you out of the NRMP for that year. You could re-enter it the next cycle for pgy-2 positions (or to start from scratch in an allo residency).

 

[Budd Chiari]

It kicks you out of the NRMP for that year. You could re-enter it the next cycle for pgy-2 positions (or to start from scratch in an allo residency).

That's what I was afraid of. This means I can't apply for both advanced positions and linked positions?

This can't be right, right?

 

[DrMom]

That's what I was afraid of. This means I can't apply for both advanced positions and linked positions?

This can't be right, right?

If you get a pgy-1 position in the osteo match, it pulls you out of the running for pgy-1 positions in the NRMP during that match cycle. As rad-one said, you can still stay in the NRMP for pgy-2 spots, though.

 

[Budd Chiari]

If you get a pgy-1 position in the osteo match, it pulls you out of the running for pgy-1 positions in the NRMP during that match cycle. As rad-one said, you can still stay in the NRMP for pgy-2 spots, though.

Ok dumb question. Let's say I apply only to allo and I match this year for a PGY2 position. Then how do I match to a preliminary year. Do I have two match lists (one for 06/07 and another for 07/08)?

Thanks for not flaming my ignorance 🙂

 

[DrMom]

If you only apply allo & match pgy2, I'm quite sure that there will be open osteo internship spots that you can scramble for (as they historically don't all fill). If you do it all at once with the 2 matches, I'm not sure about the particulars. Hopefully someone with more knowledge will come along. 🙂

 

[(nicedream)]

Ok dumb question. Let's say I apply only to allo and I match this year for a PGY2 position. Then how do I match to a preliminary year. Do I have two match lists (one for 06/07 and another for 07/08)?

Thanks for not flaming my ignorance 🙂

In the ACGME match, you do two separate rank lists - one for the PGY2 spot and one for the internship.

 

[Larry Renal]

Coming from an osteopathic student and therefore, NOT FLAMING...

Why won't the AOA just let us go about our business in mainstream medicine. they KNOW there aren't enough AOA spots for all DO grads. They know that the most competitive students are going to enter competitive allopathic spots. They know that it causes all sorts of anxiety and planning ahead and hedging bets to get through the match process. What do they have to gain by not making the matches joint? I just picture these old coot DO's in a mahogany office somewhere just trying to find ways to keep distinct from MD's.

I'm not a self hating DO by any stretch--i just hate these people who are making this match process more complicated when it dosent have to be.

phew,

lar

 

[Heeed!]

Coming from an osteopathic student and therefore, NOT FLAMING...

Why won't the AOA just let us go about our business in mainstream medicine. they KNOW there aren't enough AOA spots for all DO grads. They know that the most competitive students are going to enter competitive allopathic spots. They know that it causes all sorts of anxiety and planning ahead and hedging bets to get through the match process. What do they have to gain by not making the matches joint? I just picture these old coot DO's in a mahogany office somewhere just trying to find ways to keep distinct from MD's.

I'm not a self hating DO by any stretch--i just hate these people who are making this match process more complicated when it dosent have to be.

phew,

lar

I sat next to George Thomas, AOA President, at the AMOPS conference and asked him about the joint match. The bottom line in his response was the AOA has to protect its residency spots and have "first dibs" on osteopathic graduates or the programs will lose certification and the spots will be lost. He also told me the only way to increase residency spots at this time was to either start new residencies is hospitals that haven't had them before, or increase the number of residents in rural, community hospitals.

No wonder we can't expand.

And yes, the powers-that-be definitely want to maintain our separate "identity," such as it is. I prefer homogeny myself, and when I'm elected AOA president, some things are going to change.

 

[medlaw06]

when I'm elected AOA president, some things are going to change.

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are others like me in this world!!!

 

[DrMom]

I encourage more of you to become involved in the AOA. There are positions available for students, interns, and residents. 🙂

 

[Budd Chiari]

In the ACGME match, you do two separate rank lists - one for the PGY2 spot and one for the internship.

Ah!!!!

Thank you!!!

 

[Budd Chiari]

Coming from an osteopathic student and therefore, NOT FLAMING...

Why won't the AOA just let us go about our business in mainstream medicine. they KNOW there aren't enough AOA spots for all DO grads. They know that the most competitive students are going to enter competitive allopathic spots. They know that it causes all sorts of anxiety and planning ahead and hedging bets to get through the match process. What do they have to gain by not making the matches joint? I just picture these old coot DO's in a mahogany office somewhere just trying to find ways to keep distinct from MD's.

I'm not a self hating DO by any stretch--i just hate these people who are making this match process more complicated when it dosent have to be.

phew,

lar

Amen brother! It's really too bad though. I know they're trying to retain DOs' distinctiveness, but they're actually having the opposite effect on me. Due to the complications, I'll probably just do ACGME and avoid AOA altogether. 😳

 

[residentx2]

Amen brother! It's really too bad though. I know they're trying to retain DOs' distinctiveness, but they're actually having the opposite effect on me. Due to the complications, I'll probably just do ACGME and avoid AOA altogether. 😳

I agree. Combine the matchs and see what happens. Med students will go where the training is best. I think it would force the DO programs to become more competitive to attract more residents or they would be forced to close. I also think that the AOA should reevaluate the GME structure regarding the number of positions in each specialty. There are many primary care DO spots unfilled each year that could be given to the saturated specialties ie ophtho, derm, path, ent, anes etc. That would keep more people in the osteopathic "family" and would not cost anything. Just my 2 cents.

 

[medlaw06]

You guys all read my mind....there was something interesting that I wanted to share with you guys....while I was doing my FP rotation, the preceptor that I was working under himself told me to stay the hell away from FP for residency...the reason why?....well, with the way current medicine is going, FP is on course to be taken over by RN and PAs...there are gonna be a whole lotta FP docs in the next decade looking for something else to do....

so, how does the AOA tie into all this....well, it is quite well known that the AOA (and the osteopathic family) pushes (sometimes a little TOO vehemently) students to go into FP...also, the most # of residency spots funded by the AOA is also in FP....

at the rate the AOA is going, THEY are falling behind with the times by NOT opening up more spots in other fields (such as the aforementioned derm, rads, etc.)...ultimately, they are shooting themselves in the foot...and worse yet, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY SCREWING OVER THEIR OWN FAMILY!

AOA needs to wake up and see medicine and how its changing....STOP funding more and more FP spots and shift that $$$ into more poductive things like 1) spots in other fields OR 2) spend that $ IMPROVING the residencies that we DO have so we don't end up going to allo programs....

i apologize if what I said upsets those who are in FP or want to enter FP, but the reality is reality....it's unfortunate that the way healthcare is going (procedures and/or specialties = $$$), it takes the FP out of the equation as the primary gate keeper....

and to DrMom....I SO wanted to get involved...I applied to 3 positions in the AOA last year...I have a JD in addition to the soon to be DO and applied to the positon of constitution and bylaws committtee and 2 others, but was rejected...probably for someone who knew someone who know someone who knew someone....

 

[DrMom]

keep trying, medlaw. Once you get your foot in the door, it isn't too tough to stay around, but sometimes it is tricky to get started.

 

[skypilot]

You guys all read my mind....there was something interesting that I wanted to share with you guys....while I was doing my FP rotation, the preceptor that I was working under himself told me to stay the hell away from FP for residency...the reason why?....well, with the way current medicine is going, FP is on course to be taken over by RN and PAs...there are gonna be a whole lotta FP docs in the next decade looking for something else to do....

so, how does the AOA tie into all this....well, it is quite well known that the AOA (and the osteopathic family) pushes (sometimes a little TOO vehemently) students to go into FP...also, the most # of residency spots funded by the AOA is also in FP....

at the rate the AOA is going, THEY are falling behind with the times by NOT opening up more spots in other fields (such as the aforementioned derm, rads, etc.)...ultimately, they are shooting themselves in the foot...and worse yet, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY SCREWING OVER THEIR OWN FAMILY!

AOA needs to wake up and see medicine and how its changing....STOP funding more and more FP spots and shift that $$$ into more poductive things like 1) spots in other fields OR 2) spend that $ IMPROVING the residencies that we DO have so we don't end up going to allo programs....

i apologize if what I said upsets those who are in FP or want to enter FP, but the reality is reality....it's unfortunate that the way healthcare is going (procedures and/or specialties = $$$), it takes the FP out of the equation as the primary gate keeper....

This may be true but when I looked on a physician recruiting site the other day there were almost 3000 jobs for FP and almost 3000 for internal medicine. None of the other specialties even came close. So the predictions of the demise of FP may be a bit premature.

 

[allendo]

This may be true but when I looked on a physician recruiting site the other day there were almost 3000 jobs for FP and almost 3000 for internal medicine. None of the other specialties even came close. So the predictions of the demise of FP may be a bit premature.

I think effective lobbying by the AOA and AMA would put a halt to the progressive nature of PA's and NP's. Seriously, they can only treat bread and butter cases, not severe or chronically sick individuals.

 

[(nicedream)]

You guys all read my mind....there was something interesting that I wanted to share with you guys....while I was doing my FP rotation, the preceptor that I was working under himself told me to stay the hell away from FP for residency...the reason why?....well, with the way current medicine is going, FP is on course to be taken over by RN and PAs...there are gonna be a whole lotta FP docs in the next decade looking for something else to do....

so, how does the AOA tie into all this....well, it is quite well known that the AOA (and the osteopathic family) pushes (sometimes a little TOO vehemently) students to go into FP...also, the most # of residency spots funded by the AOA is also in FP....

at the rate the AOA is going, THEY are falling behind with the times by NOT opening up more spots in other fields (such as the aforementioned derm, rads, etc.)...ultimately, they are shooting themselves in the foot...and worse yet, THEY ARE ULTIMATELY SCREWING OVER THEIR OWN FAMILY!

AOA needs to wake up and see medicine and how its changing....STOP funding more and more FP spots and shift that $$$ into more poductive things like 1) spots in other fields OR 2) spend that $ IMPROVING the residencies that we DO have so we don't end up going to allo programs....

i apologize if what I said upsets those who are in FP or want to enter FP, but the reality is reality....it's unfortunate that the way healthcare is going (procedures and/or specialties = $$$), it takes the FP out of the equation as the primary gate keeper....

Actually, what is happening is the ACGME programs are poaching osteopathic students away from the AOA programs. Everyone knows it's fairly easy to match into ACGME programs in primary care, and most prefer them to the AOA ones because they have better reputations. In addition, less and less MD students want to go into primary care, leaving those ACGME programs with slots to fill (and DO students are eager to do so). Thus you see the increasing number of ACGME primary care programs offering an AOA accredited internship year to attract DO students.
As a result, more and more AOA primary care programs are going unfilled - which leads to their closing due to funding protocol. In the meantime, the AOA programs that are still popular are the specialties (DO students have a harder time matching into ACGME specialty programs, and so still apply to the AOA ones and are happy to match into any of them). The end result is a DECREASE in the number of AOA primary care slots and an INCREASE in the number of AOA specialty slots - leading to a move AWAY from the AOAs emphasis on primary care in the realm of GME (albeit as a result of circumstance and not philosophy).

I also will NOT be applying to any AOA programs simply because I want at least a chance at ACGME ones.
It's too bad, because my main priority is location - if the matches were joint, I would simply rank all programs in my desired location whether they were AOA or ACGME. As it is, I may end up in an ACGME program outside this location because I had to forgo the chance of matching into an AOA program there which I surely could do otherwise.

The AOA is interested in one thing - its continuation as an organization. It is not looking out for the interests of students or physicians. That is why it will never be the power that the AMA is - the AMA is an organization FOR students and physicians, not for its own leaders.

 

[medlaw06]

hey guys....it's good to see so much discussion about this topic since the more we discuss the better we have an understanding of each other and how things are evolving in front of our eyes in terms of politically and socially, medicine wise....as nicedreams said, he/she will be applying to ACGME programs...whatever his/her reasons for doing that are personal, like they are for each and all of us...we decide in our own minds what is best for us...what will give us the best in what we want out of our practice (whether that is primary care, solo practice, group practice, university teaching position, etc.)...

now, the way the AOA is tied into this, IN MY OPINION (that is it...just 1 person's opinion...whether right or wrong is irrelevant), is that I think they are falling behind times....I DO NOT want to see our DO colleagues pick from the rest....why should we have to go to programs where the training is substandard...why should we have to go to a program where others are "oh...there's no way I would go to program X...I heard it sucks!"...why CAN'T we have the same level of training as some of the allopathic programs...I know that there are many great osteo programs, but they are fewer in PERCENTAGE (not #s b/c there are fewer osteo programs in general) that have good/great reputations and/or good/great training....

also, while I agree that it is still a little premature to say that FP (whether osteo OR allo) is being phased out, what my point was that I FEEL that the AOA is falling behind (once again) when it comes to allocating $$$ for programs...in other words, let's assume that FP is NOT going to be phased out, but it still makes me wonder why there are so many osteo AND allo programs that are going unfilled in FP...but the thing that the AMA (or maybe the hospitals are doing this, but the AMA is approving it) is doing is saying "ok...so if there are fewer and fewer FP spots in allo programs being filled, we will limit/reduce the funding to fund only the # of spots that ARE being filled and taking the rest of the $ for other purposes (such as imporving the facilities, having more faculty, increasing spots in other fields)." My only suggestion is then why can't AOA do that also....leaving aside whether or not FP will or will not be phased out, one thing remains true....FP spots are consistently NOT being filled while they are still being funded....so if a program has funding for 15 spots, and year after year they only match 5, then what about the rest of the finding....why can't AOA fund the 5 spots (or maybe 10--to give some leeway) and take the rest of the $$ and spend it on the aforementioned things that they could be doing.....we would have better training...we would have imporved faculty...wer would have more spots in other fields so DOs who are interested in, say, ortho or derm or rads can come to the AOA instead of going to the ACGME spots....

in essence, my only request is that the AOA "stream-lines" things to make things more efficient and to reduce unnecessary expenditures and to allocate those funds for the improvement of the AOA, and osteopathy as a whole




SEE DRMOM....I DESERVED that position at the AOA, but was screwed over (j/k) 😍 😀 🙄 😀

 

[(nicedream)]

also, while I agree that it is still a little premature to say that FP (whether osteo OR allo) is being phased out, what my point was that I FEEL that the AOA is falling behind (once again) when it comes to allocating $$$ for programs...in other words, let's assume that FP is NOT going to be phased out, but it still makes me wonder why there are so many osteo AND allo programs that are going unfilled in FP...but the thing that the AMA (or maybe the hospitals are doing this, but the AMA is approving it) is doing is saying "ok...so if there are fewer and fewer FP spots in allo programs being filled, we will limit/reduce the funding to fund only the # of spots that ARE being filled and taking the rest of the $ for other purposes (such as imporving the facilities, having more faculty, increasing spots in other fields)." My only suggestion is then why can't AOA do that also....leaving aside whether or not FP will or will not be phased out, one thing remains true....FP spots are consistently NOT being filled while they are still being funded....so if a program has funding for 15 spots, and year after year they only match 5, then what about the rest of the finding....why can't AOA fund the 5 spots (or maybe 10--to give some leeway) and take the rest of the $$ and spend it on the aforementioned things that they could be doing.....we would have better training...we would have imporved faculty...wer would have more spots in other fields so DOs who are interested in, say, ortho or derm or rads can come to the AOA instead of going to the ACGME spots....

in essence, my only request is that the AOA "stream-lines" things to make things more efficient and to reduce unnecessary expenditures and to allocate those funds for the improvement of the AOA, and osteopathy as a whole

The way funding for GME works is Medicare gives a certain amount for each spot (this is a simplification). When a slot goes unfilled for, I believe, 3 years, that funding is lost. The hospital/AOA/AMA does not get the funding and so cannot divert it elsewhere.
There are no slots that continually go unfilled - they are eliminated when this happens. That is precisely why programs are encouraged to open more specialty slots which will be filled and result in funding, as opposed to opening more primary care slots which do not fill and result in loss of funding.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

You know, I am currently going through the same thing. I really like the allopathic programs that are available to me, but I feel compelled to fulfill this osteopathic PGY-1 obligation. Will this really affect me in the future if for some reason I want to teach in an osteopathic setting, or live in one of those 5 states?!

If I move to FL, will I be an unemployed D.O. because I didn't do the AOA approved internship?

I think its crazy. For this reason, I am wondering if its worth it to even enter the osteopathic match. Why chance it and not get into a program that I may rank higher?

 

[(nicedream)]

You know, I am currently going through the same thing. I really like the allopathic programs that are available to me, but I feel compelled to fulfill this osteopathic PGY-1 obligation. Will this really affect me in the future if for some reason I want to teach in an osteopathic setting, or live in one of those 5 states?!

If I move to FL, will I be an unemployed D.O. because I didn't do the AOA approved internship?

I think its crazy. For this reason, I am wondering if its worth it to even enter the osteopathic match. Why chance it and not get into a program that I may rank higher?

I don't understand - first it sounded like you were saying you feel like you have to do an AOA program because of the 5-state rule - then you say you wonder if it's even worth it to do the AOA match.

As for the 5-state rule, you can always petition for a waiver.

 

[Larry Renal]

You know, I am currently going through the same thing. I really like the allopathic programs that are available to me, but I feel compelled to fulfill this osteopathic PGY-1 obligation. Will this really affect me in the future if for some reason I want to teach in an osteopathic setting, or live in one of those 5 states?!

If I move to FL, will I be an unemployed D.O. because I didn't do the AOA approved internship?

I think its crazy. For this reason, I am wondering if its worth it to even enter the osteopathic match. Why chance it and not get into a program that I may rank higher?

I can't imagine an osteopathic school turning you down as a teacher (if you're clearly a good teacher in a subject they need) when they employ MD's PhD's etc. It's their classic rhetoric of trying to get you to do things their way so that they survive as an organization (as nice dream pointed out). Ditto for the subpar COMLEX and the ridiculous exit exams. I'm not doing the rotating year and I won't apologize for it.

 

[Fooman]

I'm glad I read this thread as I didn't realize I'd be knocked out of the allopathic matches that start as PGY-1. So if I had already applied to 1 AOA internship, can I retract my application to that program??

So if I'm not going to apply for any AOA internships, does that mean I just apply to ACGME transitional residencies? since my residency requires a transitional/pre-lim year...

 

[DrMom]

If you don't rank any osteo programs, then you can't match osteo & you won't be pulled from the allo match.