D.O. or SMP?

[Sawyertd21]

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I've already been accepted into a top-tier D.O. school (MSUCOM) but am on the fringe of getting into an MD school, having gotten 2 interviews (but no acceptances). I have also been accepted into the Georgetown SMP, and am still waiting for the Cincinnati SMP.

Is it best to take the D.O. or do SMP and begin in a MD school (fairly good one, assuming I can link into Georgetown or Cincinnati) a year later?

Also, I know that for the Georgetown SMP you don't have to repeat the medical school courses at all so technically I'd be half done with my first year when if I get in there. Is it the same for the Cincinnati SMP? Or do you start from scratch?

 

[americanpierg]

I've already been accepted into a top-tier D.O. school (MSUCOM) but am on the fringe of getting into an MD school, having gotten 2 interviews (but no acceptances). I have also been accepted into the Georgetown SMP, and am still waiting for the Cincinnati SMP.

Is it best to take the D.O. or do SMP and begin in a MD school (fairly good one, assuming I can link into Georgetown or Cincinnati) a year later?

Also, I know that for the Georgetown SMP you don't have to repeat the medical school courses at all so technically I'd be half done with my first year when if I get in there. Is it the same for the Cincinnati SMP? Or do you start from scratch?

If you really want to be an MD, I'd say go to the Georgetown SMP and destroy the program. That would ensure you stand a very very good chance of getting in (I assume you're stats are already pretty good since you've gotten interviews). IF you do get in, not only will you not have to do those medical school courses, but they'll count into your class rankings. You'll WANT/NEED to get As/Honors in all those med school courses... because this will be the easiest they'll get (since you won't have to take them with a bajillion other courses).

The greatest thing about this (although it may be unfair to your future med school classmates) is that you don't have to take those classes in the crazy no-free-time-ever med school curriculum and will already be at the top of the class (assuming you got all honors). The hardest thing about med schools (so i hear all the time from the med students and the same is true about dental schools) is not the difficulty of the information...but the amount of the information. The information itself is not too difficult; its the sheer amount of it. Endless amount of exams coming at you every week or two. If you're able to ace all the ones you take in your masters program, it'll make it 100x easier to ace the ones you have left to take your first year (since you'll have so much more time to study for only those) and therefore make it that much easier to stay at the top of the class...

 

[jslo85]

First off before I say anything else, it's hard to say without knowing your stats. If you're already recieving several interviews, my immediate reaction is to say that an SMP isn't what you need (again, I don't know your stats) but minor improvements to cover for shortcomings in your app is preferable with quality LORs and further clinical experiences.

In regards to your specific dilemma, it's really up to you and how you personally weigh the DO degree vs. the MD degree. Some things that you should probably take into consideration is that you don't "link" in Georgetown. It's possible that you will get interviewed if you're quite successful but to be accepted into Georgetown by going through their SMP is highly unlikely as they skim roughly the top 10 of the class. SMPs are considered a last ditch resort and Georgetown SMP in particular is rigorous/competitive enough that you need to weigh out whether you can establish a substantial increase in academic performance compared to your current GPA.

Another factor you need to consider is by taking another year off for an uncertainty is another year off your peak income as a physician. Not only that, but you're taking on 45-60,000 more in the negative paying for the COA of attending Georgetown SMP.

Another thing is whether you're a Michigan resident or not. MSUCOM's OOS tuition is incredibly steep which should also factor into your decision making. Also, by turning down the MSU acceptance, you should realize that you are not going to receive the same offer from them again in the future. Not to sound condescending, but if you did apply to the school as a backup, you should have been fully prepared to attend if all other options did not fall through as opposed to considering even further options such as SMPs.

If you do get into UCinn, I'd attend UC before Gtown SMP but I'd tend to stray away from the SMP route if you're a "fringe candidate" for allopathic schools currently. There are many other options that you have to improve your application that cost less money and pose far less of a risk.

 

[Sawyertd21]

I've heard that though D.O. schools are just as good and you can apply for MD residencies, it is difficult to get a quality one due to the negative stigma MD's have on D.O.s. Is that true? Because I'm mainly considering doing an SMP only because of the respect factor between the degrees. My goal is possibly oncology, radiology, cardiology or some kind of surgery (so not derm or plastics or anything crazy).

I am a Michigan Resident, from Ann Arbor too. I've heard that the Cincinnati and Georgetown ones are among the best. Which has a higher linkage rate? The most appealing thing about the Cincinnati one is the definitely the small class size and the fact that it is about 20k cheaper. Though, I can't find it listed anywhere whether or not a student would have to retake the courses from the SMP, because if you do then Georgetown is about a half year shorter (med school + SMP).

My stats: gpa- 3.3 (weakness), mcat- 32
w/ Strong extracurriculars: research, foreign clinical experience, hospital volunteer, 2x shadow.

I'm not sure there's any other way to improve my application asides from a SMP, because the gpa is fairly permanent due to lots of credits and a difficult science major.

Also, how much of a difference do SMP's make. Meaning, I'm a fringe candidate, so say I accept doing an SMP next year and apply again this summer. Do medical schools consider it a really good thing, even though I'd be in the middle of the program so not many grade updates (unless they wait for the fall term to finish?).

Would I have then get multiple interviews, including those from quality schools (60-20 ranking) and have a high chance of getting accepted? Or is it a minor boost, meaning I'd just get an interview more here or there and possible waitlists?

 

[braluk]

You really have to ask yourself. What is it you REALLY want? Do you want the two letters behind your name (that is MD over a DO) solely for the "prestige"? Is it worth an extra 20-30 thousand dollars in tuition, and accrued undergraduate loan interest without guarantee of gaining admission to a MD school or DO school? Fact of the matter is, after interviewing on the surgical residency trail, I've come across DO residents alongside MD residents, so I honestly do not see much of a difference. If you plan on one day, becoming chairman of a national committee that oversees guidelines for a subspecialty, then perhaps an MD may be better. Otherwise I cannot imagine applying more than once and experiencing another year of waiting and worrying (you'll have more than your shares worth when medical school begins).

 

[theWUbear]

This thread is

A) A repost of one in pre-DO
B) Moot as OP has now been accepted to UIC med

inb4 the lock

 

[maeii]

This thread is

A) A repost of one in pre-DO
B) Moot as OP has now been accepted to UIC med

inb4 the lock

it's still an interesting situation to consider. I didnt know DO grads could apply for MD residencies, can anyone else confirm this?

 

[deleted248403]

DOs can apply for MD residency, however...

So here is the problem with the Carib MD and DO trying to get into the US MD system for residency (#s are guesstimates to make the point);
There are about 136 US MD schools I think, and say each graduates 100 - thats 13,600 residents each year. There are say 15,000 residency slots, which is set in stone by Congress as they actually pay the majority of residents salaries.
Each year there is 2 or 3 new US MD schools graduating another 200-300 doctors (100ea again) - however, the number of residency slots do not increase. Therefore, the Carib/Foreign MD and DOs will always lose out to them - thus making it harder and harder to get into the US allopathic residency system.

However, the DO system has its own residency program which you can always enter if you'd like. The Carib/Foreign does not - unless you wish to practice outside the US and try again. Its only going to get harder as the years pass due to more and more US MD schools opening.

 

[maeii]

I read something from a foreign residency applicant that made me think there was a shortage(http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ayog3/iam_a_foreign_medical_student_applying_for_an/c0k37br)
I'll do my own research later anyway 🙂

 

[Innokus]

it's still an interesting situation to consider. I didnt know DO grads could apply for MD residencies, can anyone else confirm this?

Look at the match lists of the DO schools from the past several years. It appears that they can go anywhere as long as they put in the work. People are matching into MD radiology and anesthesiology programs. Some are matching to institutions like Mayo and Johns Hopkins. Proof to me that it won't matter where you go or the initials after you name, it's what you do and what you bring to the table.

 

[jslo85]

For the most part I agree with Rob's post and sentiments outside of his numbers.

For the ACGME match of 2010, there were 25,520 offered.

For the AOA match, there were 4228 DO graduates and only 2553 post-grad AOA positiions.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf

Though DO schools are said to be seeking to expand the AOA residencies, it's for the most part up to the schools to make such things happen. The current number of AOA residencies are a "buffer" if you will. Most schools have a consortium to which their seniors can scramble into as a backup.

Out of those 25,520 residency spots, 7500 or so are reserved for the FMG/IMG pre-match, at least that's what I've heard. This makes the Caribbean sort of a gamble due to the high competition for those spots. Another problem that arises is the other point Rob brought up in the expansion of medical schools and therefore medical students in the near future. FMGs may find it hard to take the primary care spots (FM for example is one that never gets filled) with the increased supply of US doctors (MD/DOs). The preference is given to US degree physicians because for the vast majority, the residency spots are paid for by medicare at around 100K a seat.

 

[americanpierg]

Look at the match lists of the DO schools from the past several years. It appears that they can go anywhere as long as they put in the work. People are matching into MD radiology and anesthesiology programs. Some are matching to institutions like Mayo and Johns Hopkins. Proof to me that it won't matter where you go or the initials after you name, it's what you do and what you bring to the table.

Thats not proof... thats like saying just because theres a few guys who became president without a college education you can become president no matter if you go to college or not.

 

[deleted248403]

Its like Innokus didnt even read mine orJslo's posts - no-one is saying you cant get into an allopathic radiology residency, but it will be increasingly more difficult as each year passes; so you can put all the work you like in but you might still be at a disadvantage just because of the letters after your name

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Look at the match lists of the DO schools from the past several years. It appears that they can go anywhere as long as they put in the work. People are matching into MD radiology and anesthesiology programs. Some are matching to institutions like Mayo and Johns Hopkins. Proof to me that it won't matter where you go or the initials after you name, it's what you do and what you bring to the table.

MD anesthesiology apparently is well represented amongst DO's. However, if you really really want MD rads, why make it harder upon yourself by going DO?

 

[getdown]

If you really want to be an MD, I'd say go to the Georgetown SMP and destroy the program. That would ensure you stand a very very good chance of getting in (I assume you're stats are already pretty good since you've gotten interviews). IF you do get in, not only will you not have to do those medical school courses, but they'll count into your class rankings. You'll WANT/NEED to get As/Honors in all those med school courses... because this will be the easiest they'll get (since you won't have to take them with a bajillion other courses).

The greatest thing about this (although it may be unfair to your future med school classmates) is that you don't have to take those classes in the crazy no-free-time-ever med school curriculum and will already be at the top of the class (assuming you got all honors). The hardest thing about med schools (so i hear all the time from the med students and the same is true about dental schools) is not the difficulty of the information...but the amount of the information. The information itself is not too difficult; its the sheer amount of it. Endless amount of exams coming at you every week or two. If you're able to ace all the ones you take in your masters program, it'll make it 100x easier to ace the ones you have left to take your first year (since you'll have so much more time to study for only those) and therefore make it that much easier to stay at the top of the class...

That's not true. People who are exempt from classes receive a pass on their transcripts... you do not get to hold on to your previous year's grades. Also, certain classes that require anatomy components and an anatomy practical you will retake BUT only the anatomy portion and again the grade will be P/F. You will have time to relax that's true but your class ranking will not be helped or hurt.

 

[americanpierg]

That's not true. People who are exempt from classes receive a pass on their transcripts... you do not get to hold on to your previous year's grades. Also, certain classes that require anatomy components and an anatomy practical you will retake BUT only the anatomy portion and again the grade will be P/F. You will have time to relax that's true but your class ranking will not be helped or hurt.

Oh, didn't know that about GTowns program. A couple kids in my class did a different SMP and they received a grade for the class they did (or so they said). If you only receive a "Pass" then it makes it a whole lot less appealing(assuming this is "pass" on a pass/fail basis and not "pass" on a "pass, highpass, honors, etc."). Sure you don't have to take the class, but you also lose easier classes that could potentially help your GPA. I know in dental school here, if two students have a 4.0, the one with more credits will have the higher rank.

 

[getdown]

Oh, didn't know that about GTowns program. A couple kids in my class did a different SMP and they received a grade for the class they did (or so they said). If you only receive a "Pass" then it makes it a whole lot less appealing(assuming this is "pass" on a pass/fail basis and not "pass" on a "pass, highpass, honors, etc."). Sure you don't have to take the class, but you also lose easier classes that could potentially help your GPA. I know in dental school here, if two students have a 4.0, the one with more credits will have the higher rank.

Yeah I understand your point. But I guess the administration thought that basing your grade on last year's performance while taking the anatomy portion of the current year's class didn't make for equal opportunity for your current classmates. I mean whatever, most of the SMP kids chose to exempt out and partied most of 1st year. I mean why not? Your first two year's grades are only minusculely important in the grand scheme of applying to residencies.

 

[americanpierg]

Yeah I understand your point. But I guess the administration thought that basing your grade on last year's performance while taking the anatomy portion of the current year's class didn't make for equal opportunity for your current classmates. I mean whatever, most of the SMP kids chose to exempt out and partied most of 1st year. I mean why not? Your first two year's grades are only minusculely important in the grand scheme of applying to residencies.

I disagree..... your first two year's grades make up most of the GPA you will have and will thus determine your class rank when you apply to residencies. Not sure how med residencies work... but my common sense tells me class rank (coming from that GPA) would mean a lot.

 

[getdown]

I disagree..... your first two year's grades make up most of the GPA you will have and will thus determine your class rank when you apply to residencies. Not sure how med residencies work... but my common sense tells me class rank (coming from that GPA) would mean a lot.

Hmm... yeah I guess they do things a bit differently in dental school. First off, a quick disclaimer as no one REALLY knows how med residencies work and each residency will have their own methods of judging applicants both in terms of the specific specialty and from one hospital to another of the same specialty. However, the general consensus is that the most important factor in determining which residency you get is your STEP1 board scores, then your clinical grade in the specialty you're applying too, followed by your overall clinical (3rd and 4th year) grades, letters or recommendation from faculty of your chosen specialty and then a hodge-podge of other stuff including first 2 years grades, AOA, and research.

The grades are less important because some schools do P/F, others do H,HP,P,LP,F and some have H,P,F while others still do A,B,C,D,F. I mean the different grading systems are such a mess and schools differ in rigor and testing that such a heavy emphasis is put on STEP scores as a equalizing factor. Not sure if you guys have the same problem in dental school.