D.O. vs foreign MD

[tanu6784]

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Is it easier to get better residencies with a D.O. or a foreign MD provided all test scores were similar.. or does the mere fact of graduating in the U.S. put you ahead as opposed to being a foreign MD.. any thought or ideas?

 

[housecleaning]

Is it easier to get better residencies with a D.O. or a foreign MD provided all test scores were similar.. or does the mere fact of graduating in the U.S. put you ahead as opposed to being a foreign MD.. any thought or ideas?

{grabs a bucket of popcorn and pulls up a seat} this should be a good one.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Seriously, If you get a chance to study at a DO school in the US, take it.

 

[Sundarban1]

{grabs a bucket of popcorn and pulls up a seat} this should be a good one.

LoL. I'm right next to you, this is almost as good as the AA thread in Pre-Allo.

 

[espbeliever]

Seriously, If you get a chance to study at a DO school in the US, take it.

kicking a dead horse... yes... yes....


in other news, just as useful...


Pinky: What Shall we do tonight Brain?
Brain: Same thing we do every night Pinky? TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!!

 

[Fusion]

Is it easier to get better residencies with a D.O. or a foreign MD provided all test scores were similar.. or does the mere fact of graduating in the U.S. put you ahead as opposed to being a foreign MD.. any thought or ideas?

This topic has been discussed many times in the past. Here are just a few of the most recent threads...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=181437&highlight=caribbean

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=188455&highlight=caribbean

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=188318&highlight=caribbean

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=179777&highlight=caribbean

 

[daelroy]

The reason why DO's are discriminated against by M.D.'s is because the reality is most D.O. students are those who couldn't get into an M.D. school and settled on D.O. school. It's pretty obvious. Just look at the huge discrepancy in entrance stats. Maybe 1/3 of DO students sincerely chose the DO route but again the other 2/3 were those who were not accepted to any allopathic schools. So at the most elite and selective programs, they will discriminate against DO's for this very reason.

But this is why DO's are preferred over FMG's too. Although osteopathic schools are less selective than allopathic schools, they at least have some admission standards. Allopathic program directors are fully aware that schools like Ross and AUC have a revolving door policy when it comes to admitting students. The only Carribbean school that has any level of stringent admission policies is St. George. But it is easier to get accepted into St. George than any DO school. So FMG's are still beneath DO's in terms of selectivity for this reason.

I think the only positive thing about going to a foreign school is that when it's said and done with, you will be an M.D. and no one will know you attended a foreign school especially if you were raised in the United States. Whereas, with being a DO, everyone will know you are a DO the rest of your life.

The other advantage with going to the Carribbean is you are practically guaranteed admission at least at Ross and AUC. That is a nice advantage. Think about it. You don't have to spin your wheels and apply 3 times to an allopathic school. You don't have to get your MPH or Post-bac. You can directly pass GO and get your M.D. You can save years of your life and become a physician right away. And if your ambition was toward primary care (internal medicine, pediatrics or family practice), the foreign schools are great option.

But the problem with being an FMG, is that your opportunities are seriously limited. Highly ranked allopathic primary care programs love DO's. You will find DO's at CHOP and other number one ranked primary care programs. You can nail a top internal medicine residency as a DO without consequence. It starts leveling out when it comes to the competitive residencies but in the midwest, the DO bias is far less And as a DO, you will have access to osteopathic residencies which include those competitive fields like surgery, radiology and derm.

As an FMG, your lifestyle will be harsh. Dominica, St. Maarten and Grenada are not like the Hawaiian Islands. You are essentially attending a school in a third world country. It's not the United States despite what the brochures show. You have to deal with hurricanes, power outages and the lack of basic comforts you take for granted in the United States. Now, I know what you are saying. Yes, you went to Mazatlan or some other small dumpy town in Mexico for Spring Break and had a blast. But it's one thing to be there on Spring Break when you are drunk all the time and not worrying about taking exams. It's another thing to genuinely live there day after day being isolated from the rest of the United States. If you miss home, you can't just hop on a Southwest Airlines jet that afternoon for $150 and be home in 3 hours or less. It doesn't work that way in the Carribbean.

And then when rotating in the United States, you don't have a base of operations you can rely on. You can't stay in one city and finish all of your rotations. You will be forced to constantly travel and that translates to spending a lot of money.

I can see reasons for attending both types of schools. You have to determine your situation and what you can deal with. If you want to do primary care and you are mentally tough and can deal with harsh living conditions, I would probably go to the Carribbean. If you want to stay in the United States and have a shot at the most competitive residencies, I would go DO.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Oh my..


can i have some popcorn?

 

[Erica_Moyer]

Let me preface this by saying I haven't started school yet. I'm going to AZCOM (an osteopathic school! 😱 ) in August.

Hopefully some day we can all realize that healthcare is a team sport. Everyone has a role in ensuring a patient's good health and quality of care no matter what the letters are behind their name. There can be a lot of lousy DOs but there can be an equal number of lousy MDs.

I chose to apply DO and I take offence to the generalization that osteo schools are for allo applicants that can't get in. I'm honestly not trying to brag or something, but I have a 32 on the MCAT and 3.7 GPA. Not the best, but certainly good enough to get into many allo schools. My best friend, even better GPA than me and tons more internship/service hours, decided last minute that nursing school was more for her. She didn't resign to being a nurse, she felt passionate for the position and was brave enough to go after it even when her family discouraged her to do so.

Let's all just work together, leave our egos and "my school's better than your school" attitudes behind. Its not constructive and no one wins.

(sorry too, I'm sure my spelling sucks...grew up in the age of spellcheck I guess 😳 )

 

[Taus]

I am a future D.O. and I will say that DaelRoy's post was pretty much on point except for one minor detail. There isn't a "huge discrepancy" in admission standards at US allo vs osteo schools as you described. From the stats that I have seen (and I'm sure if you look at the links posted above you will find them) the dif. in avg matriculating GPA is usually around 3.4 vs. 3.6 and avg MCAT is usually around 26-29 for osteo and 29-32 for allo. There are and will always be exceptions, but the stats show the above numbers. I know that shows a diference, but not a "huge discrepancy".

Except for those minor details, I agree completely with the above post, and in an effort to save to OP time, all of the previous posts about this topic largely favor the D.O. option vs. the foreign M.D.

 

[doctalaughs]

Let me preface this by saying I haven't started school yet. I'm going to AZCOM (an osteopathic school! 😱 ) in August.

Hopefully some day we can all realize that healthcare is a team sport. Everyone has a role in ensuring a patient's good health and quality of care no matter what the letters are behind their name. There can be a lot of lousy DOs but there can be an equal number of lousy MDs.

I chose to apply DO and I take offence to the generalization that osteo schools are for allo applicants that can't get in. I'm honestly not trying to brag or something, but I have a 32 on the MCAT and 3.7 GPA. Not the best, but certainly good enough to get into many allo schools. My best friend, even better GPA than me and tons more internship/service hours, decided last minute that nursing school was more for her. She didn't resign to being a nurse, she felt passionate for the position and was brave enough to go after it even when her family discouraged her to do so.

Let's all just work together, leave our egos and "my school's better than your school" attitudes behind. Its not constructive and no one wins.

(sorry too, I'm sure my spelling sucks...grew up in the age of spellcheck I guess 😳 )

I don't understand why osteopath students take offense to comments like that. First of all, he said 3/4 go because they cant get into allo and 1/4 go cause they want to. Maybe you fall into that 1/4? So what? Even if he did generalize and said osteo students have lower stats than allos and most can't get into allo, I think you shoulnd't take offense because you don't fit that profile. For example, I have an MCAT score higher than most students who go to Harvard medical school. I attend a state medical school. I do not take any offense to the statement "most of the people at your medical school go becasue they can't get into Harvard." Because it's TRUE despite the fact it may not apply to me. Why would I take offense? And I take no offense to the fact that Harvard applicants have an advantage when it comes to residencies. Since you chose to go into osteo school you should have no problem that allo studnets have certain advantages. When EVERYONE (not just you) in osteo school has equal stats to the allo applicants, THAT is when you can say it's unfair.

 

[Erica_Moyer]

I wasn't trying to start a war here, and I'm not crying about things being unfair. I was just trying to make some peace and say that its not about DO vs MD its about how you want to practice and how you want to learn. And personally, I think its okay if I get offended when the first thing some people think about with they hear DO is Allo rejects. I hold the previous poster's stats of 1/4 vs 3/4 in suspect, but even if I agreed with those statistics, why should a certain stigma or stereotype be reinforced?

 

[Tre Cool]

i have another question regarding DO v. MD. i'm really inclined towards doing research and some med students i've talked to so far have told me that it is better to have an MD than a DO because you'll be able to get grants more easily with the MD. is this true?

i don't know if i should apply to DO schools. i guess i could and decide later what i want to do. ugh...just extra work to cut down my personal statement.

any help would be appreciated.

 

[doctalaughs]

I wasn't trying to start a war here, and I'm not crying about things being unfair. I was just trying to make some peace and say that its not about DO vs MD its about how you want to practice and how you want to learn. And personally, I think its okay if I get offended when the first thing some people think about with they hear DO is Allo rejects. I hold the previous poster's stats of 1/4 vs 3/4 in suspect, but even if I agreed with those statistics, why should a certain stigma or stereotype be reinforced?

Sure I agree with you... I just feel the profession of the physician is being fragmented too much. Most of the public doesn't even know what a DO means and has no idea about the FMGs. I personally would be fine if all the DO schools just granted MDs and an added certificate of holistic practice or something. I mean, the core of what each learns is about the same. But I do think strict admissions standards should regulated for all schools granting people the title of physician. I mean, the carribean schools are such BS. A few have standards but most don't. It's ridiculous to lower standars so far to let all these people in. If they want to prove themselves, then they should gain admission to a MD or DO school in the US.

 

[mr.weirdscience]

From the stats that I have seen (and I'm sure if you look at the links posted above you will find them) the dif. in avg matriculating GPA is usually around 3.4 vs. 3.6 and avg MCAT is usually around 26-29 for osteo and 29-32 for allo. There are and will always be exceptions, but the stats show the above numbers. I know that shows a diference, but not a "huge discrepancy".

I think that's a pretty big discrepancy. We all know the numbers. And there is huge difference between a 3.4 and a 3.6; that could mean the difference between getting an A versus a B in several classes. And the 26-29 MCAT versus 29-32 is even bigger in my opinion.

And yes, there will always be exceptions like Erica and the post said 1/3 and not a 1/4. I think that number is pretty right on. 33% versus 25% is significant.

 

[mr.weirdscience]

We should also add there are two types of FMG's. There are FMG's that were accepted into their country's medical school and then chose to immigrate here.

Then there are U.S. IMG's who are American citizens who couldn't get into a U.S. medical school and chose to go to the Carribean, England, Mexico, Poland or India.

Program directors know the difference between the two. The first group is given a lot more leeway. And when you hear of an FMG who matched in dermatology or something competitive like that were usually FMG's who were practicing in their country in dermatology and chose to immigrate to this country. Those are not usually American citizens who chose to go to Ross or SGU. Yes, I have read about the person from SGU who matched in dermatology in New York several years ago. There are always exceptions.

 

[Tre Cool]

can anyone answer my previous post? thanks much.

 

[daelroy]

i have another question regarding DO v. MD. i'm really inclined towards doing research and some med students i've talked to so far have told me that it is better to have an MD than a DO because you'll be able to get grants more easily with the MD. is this true?

i don't know if i should apply to DO schools. i guess i could and decide later what i want to do. ugh...just extra work to cut down my personal statement.

any help would be appreciated.

No, it won't help you. When most people talk about research, they are talking about academic medicine. A foreign based M.D. degree will not give you an edge over a D.O. especially if you are an American who went to Ross, SGU etc. It's not that difficult to do research since it's not lucrative. The only research or academic positions that are difficult to come by are at name brand institutions like Mayo, Hopkins, Mass General, UCLA, Duke, UCSF and places like that. But there are many university based hospitals that would gladly accept someone who completed their residency there and wants to come back and become an attending and be involved with research. In this case, it doesn't really matter if you are a Caribbean M.D. or a D.O. What's more important is whether you have published in the past and if your program likes you enough to hire you as an attending there. If you are a popular resident and you express a desire to become an attending and do research, your initials don't really matter.

 

[HoodyHoo]

i have another question regarding DO v. MD. i'm really inclined towards doing research and some med students i've talked to so far have told me that it is better to have an MD than a DO because you'll be able to get grants more easily with the MD. is this true?

i don't know if i should apply to DO schools. i guess i could and decide later what i want to do. ugh...just extra work to cut down my personal statement.

any help would be appreciated.

I would think it would be a strong advantage not to necessarily go MD, but to go to an MD school that is known for their research. There are plenty of MD schools that are not very strong in research. Applying for grants is very hit or miss. On the other hand, no D.O. schools are very well known for their research. I have a friend you is at a good school, and while they learn about biostats and develop their research skills, we are learning how to perform a full medical history and develop patient contact skills. I'm not saying every MD school is like that, because I honestly don't know, but btwn my school and his, it is a huge difference..........Learning clinical skills vs. learning research skills. but most allo schools are probably excellent at giving you both of these options.

 

[HoodyHoo]

I don't understand why osteopath students take offense to comments like that. First of all, he said 3/4 go because they cant get into allo and 1/4 go cause they want to. Maybe you fall into that 1/4? So what? Even if he did generalize and said osteo students have lower stats than allos and most can't get into allo, I think you shoulnd't take offense because you don't fit that profile. For example, I have an MCAT score higher than most students who go to Harvard medical school. I attend a state medical school. I do not take any offense to the statement "most of the people at your medical school go becasue they can't get into Harvard." Because it's TRUE despite the fact it may not apply to me. Why would I take offense? And I take no offense to the fact that Harvard applicants have an advantage when it comes to residencies. Since you chose to go into osteo school you should have no problem that allo studnets have certain advantages. When EVERYONE (not just you) in osteo school has equal stats to the allo applicants, THAT is when you can say it's unfair.

Just to add my 2 cents, there are also plenty of people, like myself, who lived in a state where there was only one MD school. And the school I applied to was top 25 and very difficult to get into (U of Iowa). Not having outstanding stats, it was also very hard for me to apply to any out-of-state program. I ended up interviewing at this school and not receiving a spot. So what were my alternatives??

Essentially i'm saying it is wrong to refer to us as "allo rejects" because that statement is automatically saying we are inferior and incapable. And trust me, your grades and MCAT score don't mean a damn thing in the clinical world.

 

[nebrfan]

Take a look at http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_05.pdf

Of the foreign U.S. medical grads....
Matched: 1,143 54.7%
Unmatched: 948 45.3%

Of Osteopaths...
Matched: 1,045 68.8%
Unmatched: 479 31.4%

Of U.S. grads...
Matched: 13,798 93.7%
Unmatched: 921 6.3%

Keep in mind that these statistics are only for allopathic spots and that osteopathic students are eligible for osteopathic residencies. Even excluding the osteopathic match, DOs are much more likely to secure a spot than FMGs

 

[Tre Cool]

thanks for answering my question. i know that comparing US allo schools i should go to the better research institution if that is my inclination. but my stats are so-so. i am applying to many allo schools in the US. but i also plan on applying to DO schools, carib schools, or both. since my chances are best at the latter places, i was wondering which is best to go to for a career in academic medicine.

i heard academic medicine is harder to get into now because lots of people want to do it. that could be false, i don't know. i'm not looking to work at a top notch university (although that would be great, i'm not sure if i'll have the opportunity). i know that those stats nebrfan just posted are pretty true. it's just hard to decide on DO vs. foreign school cuz i also think i want to specialize in neuro, which isn't insanely competitive but something that isn't pretty easy to get either (family medicine). any advice?

 

[daelroy]

thanks for answering my question. i know that comparing US allo schools i should go to the better research institution if that is my inclination. but my stats are so-so. i am applying to many allo schools in the US. but i also plan on applying to DO schools, carib schools, or both. since my chances are best at the latter places, i was wondering which is best to go to for a career in academic medicine.

i heard academic medicine is harder to get into now because lots of people want to do it. that could be false, i don't know. i'm not looking to work at a top notch university (although that would be great, i'm not sure if i'll have the opportunity). i know that those stats nebrfan just posted are pretty true. it's just hard to decide on DO vs. foreign school cuz i also think i want to specialize in neuro, which isn't insanely competitive but something that isn't pretty easy to get either (family medicine). any advice?

Lots of people want to avoid academic medicine. It always sounds nice in theory but by the time people complete residency, they want to get paid well and avoid politics. Working as an attending not only pays considerably less but it involves a lot of politics and bureacracy associated with working for a large corporation. Plus, there is pressure put on you to publish and acquire large grants which is something most physicians would avoid. Academic medicine is one of those fields medical students dream about until they actually get up close and personal and realize it's not what it is cracked up to be. If you want to pursue academic medicine, it won't be too difficult coming out of either a DO or a foreign M.D. school. However, I would try to pursue academic medicine at a university that has traditionally been receptive to accepting both FMG's and DO's into their program. A place like that is much more likely to hire you as an attending than a program that has traditionally avoided FMG's and DO's and have just recently accepted one or two in the past. And you can do academic medicine at nice community programs as well. You are not limited by university programs. However, your research opportunities will be considerably greater at university based programs. Aside from name brand programs, pursuing academic medicine shouldn't be that difficult of an endevour.

 

[OzDDS]

We should also add there are two types of FMG's. There are FMG's that were accepted into their country's medical school and then chose to immigrate here.

Then there are U.S. IMG's who are American citizens who couldn't get into a U.S. medical school and chose to go to the Carribean, England, Mexico, Poland or India.

Hahaha... sings tune.. "one of these things is not like the other.."

Come on.. I think there is a huge diff between admission to some place like Cambridge, Oxford, U of London (guys st thomas)... and Mexico, carribean, poland, and india!! 🙄


Some Americans choose UK schools for such reasons as (some of them are actually even better than US schools) if you can imagine that!! Some Americans are even lucky enough to get chosen to attend.. ie. Rhodes scholar! 😉

 

[mr.weirdscience]

Hahaha... sings tune.. "one of these things is not like the other.."

Come on.. I think there is a huge diff between admission to some place like Cambridge, Oxford, U of London (guys st thomas)... and Mexico, carribean, poland, and india!! 🙄


Some Americans choose UK schools for such reasons as (some of them are actually even better than US schools) if you can imagine that!! Some Americans are even lucky enough to get chosen to attend.. ie. Rhodes scholar! 😉

You can think all you like but you simply don't know. I never stated that all medical schools in England were inferior. I just stated that some Americans will attend medical schools in England (and the UK) that will accept anyone as long as they are willing to pay a large check to them such as the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. I have a close friend who did just this. He didn't want to go to Ross so he bought his way into the Royal College in Ireland. There are a lot of Americans at this school like himself. It's a 5 year program. And this isn't the only school like this in the U.K., there is another school like this in England that does the same. If you have a heartbeat and your daddy is willing to write a fat check, they will accept you. A lot of Americans choose this route thinking it will erase their FMG stigma because it's England and it sounds better. But program directors aren't stupid and are aware that U.S. students who couldn't get accepted into a U.S. school will flee to certain schools in England for this purpose. When they apply for the match, they are put in the same category as American students who attend Ross, SGU, AUC etc. Obviously, Englands' best schools such as Oxford and Cambridge are not going to accept an American student with a 2.8 GPA. 🙄

Oh wait, I just read some of your past posts. You are one of the DO bashers on SDN. Everyone should ignore this person as he seems to have an agenda.

 

[OzDDS]

I never stated that all medical schools in England were inferior. I just stated that some Americans will attend medical schools in England (and the UK) that will accept anyone as long as they are willing to pay a large check to them such as the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. And this isn't the only school like this in the U.K., there is another school like this in England that does the same. If you have a heartbeat and your daddy is willing to write a fat check, they will accept you. A lot of Americans choose this route thinking it will erase their FMG stigma because it's England and it sounds better. But program directors aren't stupid and are aware that U.S. students who couldn't get accepted into a U.S. school will flee to certain schools in England for this purpose. When they apply for the match, they are put in the same category as American students who attend Ross, SGU, AUC etc. Obviously, Englands' best schools such as Oxford and Cambridge are not going to accept an American student with a 2.8 GPA. 🙄
.

In case you failed geography.. the only school you mentioned is RCSI. Which I'm sorry.. the republic of Ireland is not part of the UK.. This is a fact that Im sure any citizen of the rep of Ireland would be happy to discuss with you to death.. literally even possibly.. if that citizen if a member of the IRA. 🙄

 

[mr.weirdscience]

In case you failed geography.. the only school you mentioned is RCSI. Which I'm sorry.. the republic of Ireland is not part of the UK.. This is a fact that Im sure any citizen of the rep of Ireland would be happy to discuss with you to death.. literally even possibly.. if that citizen if a member of the IRA. 🙄

Fair enough, that was an error on my part and I will admit to it.

 

[OzDDS]

Fair enough, that was an error on my part and I will admit to it.

It's ok... 🙂 no sweat.

 

[Shinken]

According to very reliable sources (rumors on the internet), this is the scoop:

- Go DO unless you're blonde or under 4'5" tall. Short people that have a DO don't fare as well as taller people when it comes time to match.

- Go Foreign MD only if you're 6' tall or taller. The NRMP data shows that almost all tall foreign MDs match at competitive residencies compared to shorter foreign MDs (look at the table titled "Match Rate Success VS Height").

It's no surprise that almost every photo of A.T. Still, the founder of osteopathic medicine, shows him wearing boots. He was trying to make himself taller. That kind of bias has carried over to modern days, and people expect taller-than-average DO graduates. It's unfortunate how something as trivial as height is associated with the degree, but that's the reality of medicine and we have to deal with it.

 

[Sundarban1]

According to very reliable sources (rumors on the internet), this is the scoop:

- Go DO unless you're blonde or under 4'5" tall. Short people that have a DO don't fare as well as taller people when it comes time to match.

- Go Foreign MD only if you're 6' tall or taller. The NRMP data shows that almost all tall foreign MDs match at competitive residencies compared to shorter foreign MDs (look at the table titled "Match Rate Success VS Height").

It's no surprise that almost every photo of A.T. Still, the founder of osteopathic medicine, shows him wearing boots. He was trying to make himself taller. That kind of bias has carried over to modern days, and people expect taller-than-average DO graduates. It's unfortunate how something as trivial as height is associated with the degree, but that's the reality of medicine and we have to deal with it.

This was so for US presidents also, that is of course until Bush came along and broke the cycle. Short is the new tall, get used to it.

 

[daelroy]

Hahaha... sings tune.. "one of these things is not like the other.."

Come on.. I think there is a huge diff between admission to some place like Cambridge, Oxford, U of London (guys st thomas)... and Mexico, carribean, poland, and india!! 🙄


Some Americans choose UK schools for such reasons as (some of them are actually even better than US schools) if you can imagine that!! Some Americans are even lucky enough to get chosen to attend.. ie. Rhodes scholar! 😉

St Christohpers is very much a Ross-like school that just so happens to be located in England. But your overall point is well taken. The overwhelming majority of medical schools in England are reputable and don't accept American students with weak entrance stats.

 

[PublicEnemy]

Hahaha... sings tune.. "one of these things is not like the other.."

Come on.. I think there is a huge diff between admission to some place like Cambridge, Oxford, U of London (guys st thomas)... and Mexico, carribean, poland, and india!! 🙄


Some Americans choose UK schools for such reasons as (some of them are actually even better than US schools) if you can imagine that!! Some Americans are even lucky enough to get chosen to attend.. ie. Rhodes scholar! 😉

actually there a few schools in england that are exactly in the same business as the caribbean schools. Example: St. Christophers. www.stchris.edu. in Luton. This school is not a traditional school in the UK, it does not award MBBS or MBBChm degrees, instead it awards US style MD degrees and provides rotation opportunities in the US. Its absolutely not different from Ross or SGU. People in England don't choose to go there, more than 95% of their students are coming from the US or Canada, and the appeal is since its in England, it sounds like its a lot better than going to Dominica or Grenada. However their acceptance standards and their results are no different than the better carib schools.

thats 1 example, there are 2 or 3 other schools in the UK and several in eastern europe catering to the same needs. You can tell whats up when you get tons of flyers and see their ads in random newspapers.

 

[mr.weirdscience]

actually there a few schools in england that are exactly in the same business as the caribbean schools. Example: St. Christophers. www.stchris.edu. in Luton. This school is not a traditional school in the UK, it does not award MBBS or MBBChm degrees, instead it awards US style MD degrees and provides rotation opportunities in the US. Its absolutely not different from Ross or SGU. People in England don't choose to go there, more than 95% of their students are coming from the US or Canada, and the appeal is since its in England, it sounds like its a lot better than going to Dominica or Grenada. However their acceptance standards and their results are no different than the better carib schools.

thats 1 example, there are 2 or 3 other schools in the UK and several in eastern europe catering to the same needs. You can tell whats up when you get tons of flyers and see their ads in random newspapers.

Well said and you helped me clarify my point. An American who graduates from St. Christophers and decides to practice in the United States is considered an IMG. A British citizen who graduates from Oxford and decides to practice medicine in the United States is also an IMG.

Although, they are both technically IMG's, one of them was an American who couldn't get into a U.S. school while the other is a British citizen who was competent enough to be accepted into his own country's medical school. Program directors can distinguish between the two and will often not view the British citizen with the same bias as they would the American. And many times, it's these IMG's that match into competitive fields giving the false impression that just any IMG can match when that isn't the case.

The legitimate medical schools of a particular country does not accept Americans. For example, in India, my dad's medical school MGH doesn't accept any American applicants. It is a state run school and it receives close to 200,000 applications per year. An American wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of legitimately being accepted there. My father was accepted to an ENT residency at a prestigious program. He finished his ENT residency in India and was practicing for a couple of years before starting his residency in the United States. Then there is a medical school in Manipal in the southern part of India that is like Ross. It's mostly comprised of Americans who were not accepted to U.S. schools. An American coming out of this school is not going to be given the same consideration my father was.

 

[espbeliever]

Well said and you helped me clarify my point. An American who graduates from St. Christophers and decides to practice in the United States is considered an IMG. A British citizen who graduates from Oxford and decides to practice medicine in the United States is also an IMG.

Although, they are both technically IMG's, one of them was an American who couldn't get into a U.S. school while the other is a British citizen who was competent enough to be accepted into his own country's medical school. Program directors can distinguish between the two and will often not view the British citizen with the same bias as they would the American. And many times, it's these IMG's that match into competitive fields giving the false impression that just any IMG can match when that isn't the case.

not exactly right.

the american who graduated and came back is a us-img while the brit is a fmg. there is a distinction.

 

[daelroy]

not exactly right.

the american who graduated and came back is a us-img while the brit is a fmg. there is a distinction.

There is no such formal distinction. FMG and IMG is used interchangeably. The old term is FMG and the new term is IMG. FMG's are collectively referred to as IMG's because it sounds better. FMG sounds derogatory. It's much more pleasant to say International Medical Graduate versus Foreign Medical Graduate. This is a recent movement started by the Carribbean graduates who wanted to set themselves apart in some manner. And even if some programs make the distinction, many others don't and will collectively group anyone who graduated from a school outside the United States and Canada as either an FMG or IMG.

 

[FoughtFyr]

There is no such formal distinction. FMG and IMG is used interchangeably. The old term is FMG and the new term is IMG. FMG's are collectively referred to as IMG's because it sounds better. FMG sounds derogatory. It's much more pleasant to say International Medical Graduate versus Foreign Medical Graduate. This is a recent movement started by the Carribbean graduates who wanted to set themselves apart in some manner. And even if some programs make the distinction, many others don't and will collectively group anyone who graduated from a school outside the United States and Canada as either an FMG or IMG.

True, there is no formal and agreed to nomeclature to differentiate these graduates, but, they are often considered differently by programs. Non-citizen FMGs/IMGs require certification and additional paperwork to process visas and support immigration. They are also occasionally looked down at because they are difficult for a program to train and then hire as their visas are restrictive. On the "plus side" those who have had experience in their home countries are often seen as great assets to programs. Some of their CVs are incredible. The US citizen requires less support to bring in, but carries the stigmata of appearing to have taken a "back door" to medical school.

I do agree with the previous poster who stated there was a difference between Oxford and St. Christopher's. I don't think most programs would look at a U.S. citizen graduating from Oxford the same way as one graduating from Ross. However, the FSMB and USMLE would not see a difference.

- H

 

[RayhanS1282]

Let me preface this by saying I haven't started school yet. I'm going to AZCOM (an osteopathic school! 😱 ) in August.

Hopefully some day we can all realize that healthcare is a team sport. Everyone has a role in ensuring a patient's good health and quality of care no matter what the letters are behind their name. There can be a lot of lousy DOs but there can be an equal number of lousy MDs.

I chose to apply DO and I take offence to the generalization that osteo schools are for allo applicants that can't get in. I'm honestly not trying to brag or something, but I have a 32 on the MCAT and 3.7 GPA. Not the best, but certainly good enough to get into many allo schools. My best friend, even better GPA than me and tons more internship/service hours, decided last minute that nursing school was more for her. She didn't resign to being a nurse, she felt passionate for the position and was brave enough to go after it even when her family discouraged her to do so.

Let's all just work together, leave our egos and "my school's better than your school" attitudes behind. Its not constructive and no one wins.

(sorry too, I'm sure my spelling sucks...grew up in the age of spellcheck I guess 😳 )

Good post 👍 .

Some folks are still like the people in Meet the Parents, if you aced the MCAT why would you be a nurse.

 

[daelroy]

Non-citizen FMGs/IMGs require certification and additional paperwork to process visas and support immigration. They are also occasionally looked down at because they are difficult for a program to train and then hire as their visas are restrictive.
- H

It depends what country the person hails from. A person from western European countries particularly the UK often don't endure the same processing fiacscos and complications associated with people who come from China or India. But I agree with you in regards to the training aspect. It is much more difficult training someone who is not used to the American system. Hence I can understand how programs would highly favor the U.S.-IMG. But for whatever reason, when you hear of some IMG who matched in something extremely competitive like dermatology or neurosurgery, there is usually a catch, and that catch is an applicant was already practicing in that particular field in his or her country for years etc.

 

[APACHE3]

Of the foreign U.S. medical grads....
Matched: 1,143 54.7%
Unmatched: 948 45.3%

Of Osteopaths...
Matched: 1,045 68.8%
Unmatched: 479 31.4%

Of U.S. grads...
Matched: 13,798 93.7%
Unmatched: 921 6.3%

Your post is informative, but a little misleading. Many IMG's sign contracts outside the Match (preMatch). The NRMP has no idea how many there are, but they make up a small, but sizeable physician population, so I think the IMG match and DO match percentages will be about the same. And these numbers only add up to about 16,000 seats? Who's filling the other 7000 spots that Match in 2005? Anyway, back to my popcorn...oh, and whether a US-IMG is better than true IMG is always program dependent. In the South, the US IMG has a little more stock than the true IMG, but maybe this is different up North. Ok, NOW back to my popcorn.... 🙂

 

[Doctor Bagel]

actually there a few schools in england that are exactly in the same business as the caribbean schools. Example: St. Christophers. www.stchris.edu. in Luton. This school is not a traditional school in the UK, it does not award MBBS or MBBChm degrees, instead it awards US style MD degrees and provides rotation opportunities in the US. Its absolutely not different from Ross or SGU. People in England don't choose to go there, more than 95% of their students are coming from the US or Canada, and the appeal is since its in England, it sounds like its a lot better than going to Dominica or Grenada. However their acceptance standards and their results are no different than the better carib schools.

thats 1 example, there are 2 or 3 other schools in the UK and several in eastern europe catering to the same needs. You can tell whats up when you get tons of flyers and see their ads in random newspapers.

exactly, except i think there is a major difference between ross and sgu and st. chris. ross and sgu are pretty well established and have a long track record of licensed graduates, which is something st. chris is lacking. so, i personally would go to ross or sgu over st. chris in spite of the fact that st. chris tries to pass itself off as a british school. imo, if you've got to go offshore, go to the best off shore place around.

 

[daelroy]

Of the foreign U.S. medical grads....
Matched: 1,143 54.7%
Unmatched: 948 45.3%

Of Osteopaths...
Matched: 1,045 68.8%
Unmatched: 479 31.4%

Of U.S. grads...
Matched: 13,798 93.7%
Unmatched: 921 6.3%

Your post is informative, but a little misleading. Many IMG's sign contracts outside the Match (preMatch). The NRMP has no idea how many there are, but they make up a small, but sizeable physician population, so I think the IMG match and DO match percentages will be about the same. And these numbers only add up to about 16,000 seats? Who's filling the other 7000 spots that Match in 2005? Anyway, back to my popcorn...oh, and whether a US-IMG is better than true IMG is always program dependent. In the South, the US IMG has a little more stock than the true IMG, but maybe this is different up North. Ok, NOW back to my popcorn.... 🙂

We all know of unfilled programs in IM and FP that will take pretty much anyone who applies whether that person is an an IMG or DO. If one simply wants to match somewhere in the U.S., they can easily do so. That has never been the issue. But rather, I would like to see what percentage of D.O.'s versus U.S. IMG's have matched into competitive fields be it an allopathic or osteopathic residency. I think we all know the answer to that. Yes, it may seem unfair to make that comparison because IMG's are prohibited from applying to osteopathic programs, but then again, isn't that the point of this thread, to show the advantages of one process over the other? Even if you were to assume that US IMG's and D.O.'s have exactly the same rate of success in the allopathic match (which is a daring assumption), the D.O.'s have the edge because they also have access to osteopathic programs.

 

[FoughtFyr]

Many IMG's sign contracts outside the Match (preMatch). The NRMP has no idea how many there are, but they make up a small, but sizeable physician population, so I think the IMG match and DO match percentages will be about the same.

Not even close. Those "preMatch" positions you refer to are the least desired of all residencies. Understand that the match rules require the program not to list a spot in the match if they already have contracted to fill it outside the match. For that reason, only spots extremely unlikely to fill inside the match are ever offered up for "out of match" contracts. Likewise, the IMG (regardless of citizenship) who signs one is basically admitting they themselves are unlikely to match or scramble into a spot. So, in short, to compare these folks to DOs who voluntarily subject themselves to the match and its rules is a disservice to this discussion.

Also the numbers you quoted

Of the foreign U.S. medical grads....
Matched: 1,143 54.7%
Unmatched: 948 45.3%

Of Osteopaths...
Matched: 1,045 68.8%
Unmatched: 479 31.4%

Of U.S. grads...
Matched: 13,798 93.7%
Unmatched: 921 6.3%

are the percentages of applicants who registered for the match, so to include IMGs who sign "preMatch" in your analysis is inaccurate. It is a violation of match rules to sign up for the match and then sign a "preMatch" contract.

The OP was trying to see which would serve them better, DO or IMG. You've actually made the case for DO!

- H

 

[Kazema]

actually there a few schools in england that are exactly in the same business as the caribbean schools. Example: St. Christophers. www.stchris.edu. in Luton. This school is not a traditional school in the UK, it does not award MBBS or MBBChm degrees, instead it awards US style MD degrees and provides rotation opportunities in the US. Its absolutely not different from Ross or SGU. People in England don't choose to go there, more than 95% of their students are coming from the US or Canada, and the appeal is since its in England, it sounds like its a lot better than going to Dominica or Grenada. However their acceptance standards and their results are no different than the better carib schools.

More on St. Chris:
http://www.medschoolguide.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=2266

From the thread:

The MCAT is required if you took it.

????

From my understanding, everything there is "under construction". Seems kind of shady to me...

 

[FoughtFyr]

BTW daelroy,

It always scares me when we agree...

- H

 

[daelroy]

exactly, except i think there is a major difference between ross and sgu and st. chris. ross and sgu are pretty well established and have a long track record of licensed graduates, which is something st. chris is lacking. so, i personally would go to ross or sgu over st. chris in spite of the fact that st. chris tries to pass itself off as a british school. imo, if you've got to go offshore, go to the best off shore place around.

I agree. Ross is much more reputable than St. Chris. However, in regards to its selectivity, it is well known that Ross accepts a large class of students three times per year. Like St. Chris., I'm certain Ross will accept anyone who applies especially knowing that 20% of each its entering classes will drop out for whatever reason. In a NY Times article, Ross reported they accepted 70% of its students and who knows how accurate that number is. I don't think Ross is concerned with retention all that much. They are running a business so they need to admit enough students to compensate for the loss of students with every class.

 

[OzDDS]

St Christohpers is very much a Ross-like school that just so happens to be located in England. But your overall point is well taken. The overwhelming majority of medical schools in England are reputable and don't accept American students with weak entrance stats.

Stating that St. Chis is a british medical school and listing it's location in England is like akin to the attept by Ross Medical school attempting to state they are located in New Jersey.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=160610&highlight=ross+jersey

It just ain't true!


You might want to read the following information regarding St.Chris and who founded it and where the school is really located!

http://www.aaii.info/uehin.html

 

[mr.weirdscience]

Stating that St. Chis is a british medical school and listing it's location in England is like akin to the attept by Ross Medical school attempting to state they are located in New Jersey.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=160610&highlight=ross+jersey

It just ain't true!


You might want to read the following information regarding St.Chris and who founded it and where the school is really located!

http://www.aaii.info/uehin.html

Wrong

It has two campuses. One is in Senegal and one is in Luton. The link you provided is for their Senegal campus.

Here is another link
St. Christopher's College of Medicine has campuses located in Luton, England and Dakar, Senegal. Having campuses in two very different locations such as this gives our institution a unique perspective on the learning experience.

The UK Campus is in Luton, and being just thirty miles north of London, one of the most popular capital cities in the World, it offers students a plethora of activities outside of the lecture room. The cultural diversity and the shear energy of the surrounding towns makes the location ideal for student life.

http://www.stchris.edu/about/index.php

Here is another link

UK Campus Details:

St. Christopher’s College of Medicine
York House
17-19 Park Street West
Luton
Bedfordshire
LU1 3BE

Telephone: +44 (01582) 400 466
Fax: +44 (01582) 400 422
Email: [email protected]

http://www.stchris.edu/contact.php

 

[hopefulM.D.]

I was wondering what is your impression of a school like Sackler, an Israeli medical school that has many connections with NY state residencies. I got accepted there and am most likely going to attend that school.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I was wondering what is your impression of a school like Sackler, an Israeli medical school that has many connections with NY state residencies. I got accepted there and am most likely going to attend that school.

I've heard a lot of bad things about Sackler...especially of their stateside offices in the USA. Their contact is something like "[email protected]" which is very very weird. It's the only school I've ever encountered that has an aol account as their main contact address.

I was also assured of an acceptance at Sackler, without even interviewing, again a very weird thing.

I personally wrote them several formal emails asking specific questions about the school, tuition, etc....and whereas most schools write back within a couple of days, [email protected] would write back two or three weeks later with something like "Who is this?" and "Who did you speak with because I can't find your previous email"... I honestly felt like I was dealing with someone running a fake business out of their home-office. I'm sure that's not the case since the Israel-side seems to be legit, but for 5 out of 5 times I talked with them via email I was very uncomfortable with the results.

It may be a good school once you can get past the baffoons in New York. 🙂

But I would definitely go to any U.S. school before I would go there.

Just my dos peniques,
Johnny

 

[mx_599]

Good post 👍 .

Some folks are still like the people in Meet the Parents, if you aced the MCAT why would you be a nurse.

Okay Gay Focker.... 😀