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amyl

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My math shows that the pay listed for 50 hours is low even including the profit sharing of $35- $50k and the benefits. I hope you find people. May I suggest you negotiate on the pay and/or workload to fill those positions?

As an older anesthesiologist, I also don't think 10-10.5 hours per day for 5 days per week is a "lifestyle job" but to each their own. Your positions are located in a nice city so that should help with recruitment.
 
My math comes out to 205-210/hr not including benefits. 7-5 everyday is pretty brutal and even worse I would say then a call position. Job would have to be pretty chill for this to be a good gig. I make about that in academics with very minimal call, chill, 9 weeks. > 100k tax deferral available
 
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agree, 7-5 everyday is really brutal.

Nearby academic ambulatory center pays 460K with stellar state benefits (12% 403a). Usually out by 3:30, sometimes late but the next day out early.
 
I think the idea of a non-call position can sound appealing….until you’ve worked M-F for a few weeks :/ I can’t do it. I get a post-call day about every week and it’s my most productive day, I get almost everything done around the house so I’m free to spend time with my family on the weekends 🙂
 
dabears505 said:
I would love to be a day doc one day, but 5 days of 7-5 sounds brutal.
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It is an absolute grind.

My wife works these hours and most weeks it seems she’s working more than me, even with overnight call and late days. She’s trying to go down to 4 days a week, if only to have time for self-care or other errands (groceries, laundry, doctor visits, etc).
 
Southpaw said:
Just curious Amy - what would a 7-3 no call no weekends MD only M-Th position pay? 4 8s, 32 hours a week. With benefits. Thanks.

Also, can you use sugammadex freely? Asking for a friend.
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In this market, that should be an $800k package with 12 weeks vacation according to this forum.
 
thinkorswim said:
In this market, that should be an $800k package with 12 weeks vacation according to this forum.
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$365,000 plus benefits and 6 weeks vacation. I would add the company should MAX out your retirement contributions as well. I would accept $350K for such a position if I wanted to live in that area.

$250 x 32=$8,000 x 46 weeks=$368,000
Subtract $18,000 for retirement contributions (company will max you out)
Benefit package of malpractice, healthcare and PTO=$78,000

$350,000 salary with benefits, PTO, retirement with 6 weeks off.

Your actual cost to the company is a little over $300 per hour (all in).
 
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amyl said:
Only one site of service. Solo cases md only- no care team.

Profit sharing maxes out the 401k every year - to the federal maximum… meaning you put in your 19k (or whatever it is this year) and the match and profit sharing add up to the federal maximum. Will be glad to show you my 401k contributions over the year.
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What happens to the rest of the profit?
 
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BLADEMDA said:
$365,000 plus benefits and 6 weeks vacation. I would add the company should MAX out your retirement contributions as well. I would accept $350K for such a position if I wanted to live in that area.

$250 x 32=$8,000 x 46 weeks=$368,000
Subtract $18,000 for retirement contributions (company will max you out)
Benefit package of malpractice, healthcare and PTO=$78,000

$350,000 salary with benefits, PTO, retirement with 6 weeks off.

Your actual cost to the company is a little over $300 per hour (all in).
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I agree, my post above was just tongue in cheek.

But two things can kill the deal: vacation availability and case mix. There’s no point in taking such a job if it’s impossible to take vacation when you want and you’re stuck doing the worst/busiest rooms everyday.
 
thinkorswim said:
I agree, my post above was just tongue in cheek.

But two things can kill the deal: vacation availability and case mix. There’s no point in taking such a job if it’s impossible to take vacation when you want and you’re stuck doing the worst/busiest rooms everyday.
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I agree there are many variable to accepting a position. For example, I won't supervise 1:4 any longer even for $50 more per hour. It isn't worth it to me. Second, what is the case mix like? Am I doing GI more than 1 day per week doing the sickest patients solo? No thanks. Do I get any holidays off like Thanksgiving or X Mas? I would want a few days PTO around the holidays.
 
BLADEMDA said:
I agree there are many variable to accepting a position. For example, I won't supervise 1:4 any longer even for $50 more per hour. It isn't worth it to me. Second, what is the case mix like? Am I doing GI more than 1 day per week doing the sickest patients solo? No thanks. Do I get any holidays off like Thanksgiving or X Mas? I would want a few days PTO around the holidays.
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I’d hope a “day doc” is not taking holidays. Holidays (and weekends) should be for call takers.
 
DocMcCoy said:
7-3 and & 8 weeks, sign me up
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It really is incredible how much more draining those last two hours are. Did a locums gig last year that was a week of 7-5 and pretty steady all day, and the only thing I wanted to do at the end of each shift was go back to the hotel, eat, and go to bed.

7-5 definitely should not be sold as a "day doc" position imo. Beyond the workload, it also leaves absolutely no time to get anything done during the "day" (i.e. pick up kids, take care of other business/errands during business hrs, etc)
 
That is about the hardest road to 50hrs/week one could take. Agreed it’s a drag. No thanks. It’s also crucial what happens around that 4-5pm hr. Big difference between not having to start a case that won’t finish by 5 and being on the hook for any case that starts before 5 and praying for relief.

Chance for early days >>>>> chance of staying late to even consider this for the money and bennies.

No offense to OP, but if it’s like any other USAP job in Texas I’ve had contact with, probably pushing that 50hrs on the regular.
 
It is pretty cool that this is an MD-only job. Very rare outside of the Midwest and West Coast.

If I wanted to be in TX, I would be calling about a partner-track position…
 
PainInTheAnes said:
Would be interesting to know how you landed on these numbers. I imagine the guys at Welsh Carson probably had more say in it than you, because it’s a number that says “take this job, but it’ll barely be passable for pay, and we know you’ll always be looking to jump ship because it’s just barely acceptable. We have a monopoly in this area so take it or leave it.”

It’s right on the edge of unacceptable for anyone with decent training and a clean license.

Has the idea of paying something more comfortable to aid in retention ever been floated? At that number it seems like you’re looking for someone desperate for any job to take it as a transition until something better comes along. In my mind it’s easier to just pay the extra 75k a year knowing that you have some stability at that site for awhile.

Why not be the best paying practice for the solid job in the area? I know it eats into Welsh Carson’s profits but I’d think having to locums that spot or make partners cover it is far worse financially
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Amy can speak for herself, but are you referring to the 7-3 or 7-5 position? I honestly think both are fair considering benefits are included. I’d never accept a 7-5 M-F job as I think that’s a long slog to 50 hours of work. The 7-3 position seems perfectly acceptable.

It includes retirement/health/disability/malpractice. You’re also doing your own cases, so perhaps you’re sacrificing some salary but you’re also not supervising 3-4 rooms a day. It’s sooooo much easier and nicer just doing your own work.

Anyway, sure it’s not top pay but I personally think it’s fine. And I absolutely am not a fan of USAP or any of the other AMCs.
 
PainInTheAnes said:
Mostly the 7-5 position. The value of the 401k match goes up with the 7-3 position

Including all benefits at a reasonable rate, that 7-5 job comes out to about 225 or 230/hr of value. It only appears fair on its face imo because people aren’t aware of what crnas are getting paid for no strings attached, work as much as you want, infinite flexibility locums work at every hospital in the country.
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Very fair points. I agree with you.
 
I’d want to know whether there are short days in the mix or if the site is busy enough that the day doc can expect to work 7-5 every single day. We have 16-17 people starting every morning but by 5pm we are sometimes down to 2-3 rooms so only the call people are still there. Today is an unusually light day. We have 5 people (including me 🙂) who can expect to work just 2-3 hours.
 
Working 7-5 everyday non stop with no lunch or break like residency is absolutely brutal. I’d rather supervise this arrangement honestly. At least you can relax a little once you get to terminal rooms.
 
My thoughts:

Pay for the job is good given its all physician and in a 1.3 million population city. 450k + ~44k 401k employer contribution + benefits.

If it were in a smaller city or ACT then, I’d want more.
 
Maybe you have, or have had, someone willing to cover 7-5 (realistically probably more like 6:45-17:15), but I highly doubt that is a long term sustainable position. I assume you want retention and not a job hopper. I'd seriously consider ditching that model and aim for a 7-3 position (still kind of crappy pay but more do able) or add another call taker to the group. Just my opinion but seems others agree.
 
amyl said:
Welsh Carson isn’t involved in the day to day practice or our decisions. The business guys may offer opinions and guidance but it’s ultimately up to the drs… this is for better or sometimes worse… it was the docs that sunk San Antonio- not the business guys.

Are you saying that our 7-3 m-f pay is too low? Maybe 🤷‍♀️ our practice is more geared towards partnership but we realize some don’t want to take call or work weekends… we like to offer other kinds of positions. We have two people in this job right now and they’re both happy - it works for them.

As far as the 7-5 m-f 450k salary maybe it is too low 🤷‍♀️. However… it is MD only and appeals to some. It’s at the hospital next door to our main hospital. Half the days they don’t start until 8 and every day everyone goes home at 5…. Its not a super busy day usually - it’s the md only and predictability that is attractive. Zero weekends, zero holidays. Again we have two people in this position and they’re happy. Not every job is a good fit for everyone

We are trying to offer varied clinical options to people -
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The 7-3 job is probably fairly average. It is definitely the "mommy" track (not trying to be inappropriate or politically incorrect) route and probably works for people looking for the predictability.

As others said, even though it is another $100k for 10 more hours/week, it is something I cannot imagine most people would want to do. Are partners getting beat up on call and several late people staying past 6 PM?

Anyways good luck ... not trying to rag on the job, just feel like you'll be more successful filling a 7-3 job or another call taking position assuming the salary and partner track are reasonable.
 
All I can say is that CRNAs are getting in excess of $200K for 0700-1500 x5 days. Typically, its around $220k with the bonus plus full benefit package. IMHO, a Physician working that same schedule should be getting $350K plus full benefits. I just couldn't see paying them less than that amount considering our locums is costing us over $750K for that same position.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, certified registered nurse anesthetists in the U.S. earn an average salary of $205,770. However, CRNAs in some states earn a mean annual wage much higher than the national average.
 
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ERRES2288 said:
My math comes out to 205-210/hr not including benefits. 7-5 everyday is pretty brutal and even worse I would say then a call position. Job would have to be pretty chill for this to be a good gig. I make about that in academics with very minimal call, chill, 9 weeks. > 100k tax deferral available
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Hmmm 205-210/hr oooh I don’t even think crnas I know would work that cheap…
 
amyl said:
We do pay our 7-3 person 350 plus benefits
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So all these close to 500k offers are always wknds, nights, calls, holidays etc? a 40 hour day shift anesthesia is sub 400k? Sibling will be an attending next year in midwest who doensn't have any business sense.
 
finalpsychyear said:
So all these close to 500k offers are always wknds, nights, calls, holidays etc? a 40 hour day shift anesthesia is sub 400k? Sibling will be an attending next year in midwest who doensn't have any business sense.
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I believe W-2 jobs should be 225-250ish per hour of work. FTE is usually 50 hours/week once you factor in the average call burden. Adjust weeks for vacation. 50 hours/week and 8 weeks off, when I was looking last year was in the 500k neighborhood, not sub 400k. This is PNW. MGMA shows median is 490k.
 
To be honest. Days (5 days a week is brutal)

We have a day doc 0.9 (always Monday or Fridays off). So always. 3 day weekend. Sometimes then combine Fridays and Mondays off for 4 day weekends. They work 7-3pm. For 390k but full state benefits and matching. 100% supervision.

Plus 9 weeks off plus paid 12 holidays.

I think 450k (4 days a week 7-5pm) with 8 weeks off. Someone will bite.

Solo cases don’t bother me as much as solo cases 5 days a week with no early days.

Old timers want time off. predictable 3-4 days a week. No calls

New grads MONEY.

450k/50 hours/5 days a week 6 weeks off is in no man’s (or woman’s land).

We cannot even get crna’s work work 5 days a week 8 hours a day at 225k . They want 1099 plus 300k daytime only no weekends. Or work 2 days a week 16/24 plus the 9 weeks off plus paid holidays.
 
Gaseous Clay said:
Considering they are looking for 450k/50 hrs/6 weeks, not sure they would go for it but anything is possible on SDN, right?
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crash2500 said:
I would try 450k/45 hours/8. That would be reasonable
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Considering what OP asked is not reasonable, especially when you have locums making much more than that for the near future, its an alternative. What I asked for is about 250/hr, about 125-150/hr less than what you can get as locums. Not sure I would call it unreasonable.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Considering what OP asked is not reasonable, especially when you have locums making much more than that for the near future, its an alternative. What I asked for is about 250/hr, about 125-150/hr less than what you can get as locums. Not sure I would call it unreasonable.
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Can't really compare, especially from USAP and no nights, weekends, or holidays.
 
amyl said:
We signed a new contract and thus have a couple new day doc/no call positions to fill. 7-5 Monday-Friday 6 weeks vacation 450k plus full benefits including profit sharing. Solo cases only - no care team. DM or text me 561-644-2822 if you want to know more - Amy
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Impressive for solo cases in a major city, that's >240/hr + benefits for a regular worker.

I'm in a major city with and pay is 190ish per hour for same deal.
 
BLADEMDA said:
If you can get that package for those hours take it. No call, benefits, retirement, and 8 weeks PTO. The best I could offer via my group would be $390K but that would be for 40 hours per week (no call).
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Just to clarify this was a suggestion for others.
 
amyl said:
Would more vacation or 4 days a week be more attractive to people? Or even 3 days a week?
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Just my two cents, but I think people looking for these types of jobs are more interested in flexibility on their own terms. Have you considered offering it as a per diem position at an hourly rate?

That way someone can decide how many and which days they’d like to work. It gives them the flexibility they seek and you get the coverage that you need. You can perhaps further incentivize the position by offering to pay for malpractice or some other benefits if they work a set number of shifts each month.
 
TheLoneWolf said:
Impressive for solo cases in a major city, that's >240/hr + benefits for a regular worker.

I'm in a major city with and pay is 190ish per hour for same deal.
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It's not anywhere close to 240/hr.

7-5 = 10 hours a day
10 hours x5 days a week = 50 hours a week
6 weeks off means 50 hours a week x 46 weeks

That's 2300 hours a year.

450k/2300 hours ~ 195 per hour
 
amyl said:
Thanks for the positive feedback - it’s one site, no driving all over dallas as is common with some groups here. And of course md only.
Would more vacation or 4 days a week be more attractive to people? Or even 3 days a week?
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If you go to 4 days a week or have some early days, 7-3, you'd be far more successful IMHO. 6 weeks is plenty of vacation for a day doc job. In addition your hourly rate is going to have to come up a good bit from 195/hr.
 
amyl said:
Thanks for the positive feedback - it’s one site, no driving all over dallas as is common with some groups here. And of course md only.
Would more vacation or 4 days a week be more attractive to people? Or even 3 days a week?
Click to expand...

amyl said:
We always pay for malpractice- always. We also offer benefits for our position- as long as someone works at least 30h/week they get benefits
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100% it would help. 450/40/8 is something I would consider for sure. Its less pay and less vacation than I was working at my previous site but its also less hours. More than likely, I would even do OT on top of that, but having the option to leave after 10 hours is important.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
100% it would help. 450/40/8 is something I would consider for sure. Its less pay and less vacation than I was working at my previous site but its also less hours. More than likely, I would even do OT on top of that, but having the option to leave after 10 hours is important.
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Me too
 
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