DDS/DMD pay with respect to their "specilization"

[786mine]

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hello

first off, no flaming or cheap ass comments please like "don't you know how to use search" etc. I looked around but counldn't get a good answer. so here is the question.

besides liking to work with patients, and getting the satisfaction that you have done something with your hands and you get the instant feedback, another perk of dentistry is the good money they make. i've heard that some GP make more then some specialists, but those are expecitional cases. my question is, where does most of the money lie? would someone be willing to give me a breakdown of all the major dental fields? Perio, Ortho, Occlusion, General Praction, etc.

let me also take this time to explain why i want to know this... so that i know where most of the money is and if i can see myself doing that. set and make realistic goals and apply schools that have some edge in the field i like.

thanks.

 

[45540]

hello

first off, no flaming or cheap ass comments please like "don't you know how to use search" etc. I looked around but counldn't get a good answer. so here is the question.

besides liking to work with patients, and getting the satisfaction that you have done something with your hands and you get the instant feedback, another perk of dentistry is the good money they make. i've heard that some GP make more then some specialists, but those are expecitional cases. my question is, where does most of the money lie? would someone be willing to give me a breakdown of all the major dental fields? Perio, Ortho, Occlusion, General Praction, etc.

let me also take this time to explain why i want to know this... so that i know where most of the money is and if i can see myself doing that. set and make realistic goals and apply schools that have some edge in the field i like.

thanks.

There have been plenty of good specialty threads lately.

General dentists on average make 174,000 according to the latest ADA data. Specialists make on average 274,000.

Picking a speciality is about what you're good at and interested, not money. Doing endo just for the money would get old real quick is what i've been told by upper classmen.

 

[12YearOldKid]

There have been plenty of good specialty threads lately.

General dentists on average make 174,000 according to the latest ADA data. Specialists make on average 274,000.

Keep in mind that the data is skewed by the fact that the specialist category includes perio, prosth, and the less common specialties like public health/radiology/etc... who all make roughly the same as a general dentist. OMS/endo/ortho/pedo are making big bucks.

Picking a speciality is about what you're good at and interested, not money. Doing endo just for the money would get old real quick is what i've been told by upper classmen.

I hate to be cynical, but at my school I would say that 90% of the time specializing is about money --- at least for those entering specialty right out of school. I'm not saying that's how it should be; just that that's how it is. It is no coincidence that the most competitive specialties are also the most lucrative.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Keep in mind that the data is skewed by the fact that the specialist category includes perio, prosth, and the less common specialties like public health/radiology/etc... who all make roughly the same as a general dentist. OMS/endo/ortho/pedo are making big bucks.



I hate to be cynical, but at my school I would say that 90% of the time specializing is about money --- at least for those entering specialty right out of school. I'm not saying that's how it should be; just that that's how it is. It is no coincidence that the most competitive specialties are also the most lucrative.

Great post

 

[simpledoc]

I hate to be cynical, but at my school I would say that 90% of the time specializing is about money --- at least for those entering specialty right out of school. I'm not saying that's how it should be; just that that's how it is. It is no coincidence that the most competitive specialties are also the most lucrative.

I wholely agree to this! if not, how come, it is such a coincidence (or infact a rule) that the top 5 or say top 10 in every class or for that matter all top scorers in national boards ALWAYS apply to Ortho/OFMS ? I've rarely heard or seen the topper of a class opting to do a residency in Perio or Pedo and claiming that he/she is doing it cuz he is "simply interested" in doing it!
i personally feel that the heirachy of choice of specialty currently, is as follows:
1.OFMS/Ortho(based on aptitude and ability to do extra studies for OFMS)
2.Endo
3. Pedo/Prosth(based on aptitude to extremism in dentistry for pros or based on interest and ability to cope with kids for pedo)
4. Perio
5.Public health, Oral radiology, Oral pathology (those interested in basic research and not really interested in practicing dentistry or who dont really like the life and stress of a clinical dentist)

Now, coming to the main topic of the thread...the money part!! well, 786, money can literally be made by any specialty, if you have the time and determination and if you work hard! I've known some orthodontists (hot field currently!) who are doing even poorer than some general dentists and I do know of some prosthodontists who are making millions during reconstructions ete etd.....if you see the amount of hard work oral surgeons have put through to get through their residency and the kind of hard work they do in their real life (discussed in another thread) you see the reason why they are known to be the "richest" among dental specialties...
all in all , irrespective of the field, i think being a "specialist" in itself an honor, as no matter what, a specialist has the expertise in his own field which a general dentist cannot achieve even after several years of practice and seniority! good luck though in chosing your specialty!

 

[toofache32]

Picking a speciality is about what you're good at and interested, not money. Doing endo just for the money would get old real quick is what i've been told by upper classmen.

I agree. My dad was an orthodontist and I could have done ortho and walked right into his booming practice as he retired. And I could probably make more money in his practice than OMFS (which I chose). But I just can't tolerate all the mental work and waiting 3 years or more for results (ortho).

 

[River13]

hello

first off, no flaming or cheap ass comments please like "don't you know how to use search" etc. I looked around but counldn't get a good answer. so here is the question.

besides liking to work with patients, and getting the satisfaction that you have done something with your hands and you get the instant feedback, another perk of dentistry is the good money they make. i've heard that some GP make more then some specialists, but those are expecitional cases. my question is, where does most of the money lie? would someone be willing to give me a breakdown of all the major dental fields? Perio, Ortho, Occlusion, General Praction, etc.

let me also take this time to explain why i want to know this... so that i know where most of the money is and if i can see myself doing that. set and make realistic goals and apply schools that have some edge in the field i like.

thanks.

Look at the "sticky's" at the beginning of the dental forums to break down specialist pays.

 

[organichemistry]

how long does it take to specialize in each of these fields? someone just have a link?

 

[45540]

how long does it take to specialize in each of these fields? someone just have a link?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?

 

[organichemistry]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?

thanks =}

 

[GQ1]

Keep in mind that the data is skewed by the fact that the specialist category includes perio, prosth, and the less common specialties like public health/radiology/etc... who all make roughly the same as a general dentist. OMS/endo/ortho/pedo are making big bucks.



I hate to be cynical, but at my school I would say that 90% of the time specializing is about money --- at least for those entering specialty right out of school. I'm not saying that's how it should be; just that that's how it is. It is no coincidence that the most competitive specialties are also the most lucrative.

here are the figures simpledoc was kind enough to post


simpledoc
Registered User
50+ Posts


Join Date: Apr 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsGavinC
We discuss dental incomes/misleading stats from the DOL every other month around here.


here's another source of income I've got from the Occupational Outlook Handbook, Michigan Occupational Information System:

" Dentist's earnings vary according to location, type of practice, and the individual's number of years in practice. Dentist's entering private practice often earn little more than the minimum needed to cover expenses during the first year or two, but their earnings rise rapidly as their practices develop. On the average, salaried dentists earn somewhat less than self-employed dentists. Dentists who specialize, such as oral surgeons and periodontists, and those who work in large urban areas generally have the highest earnings. Dentists who were employed by hospitals in early 2001 averaged $101,200 per year, with most earning between $61,700 and $126,500.
Nationally, the estimated median net income (2000) of dentists by specialty was:
SPECIALTY MEDIAN NET INCOME
General Practitioner $136,942
Orthodontist $183,961
Pediatric Dentist $182,198
Endodontist $199,831
Prosthodontist $229,218
Oral Surgeon $183,374
Periodontist $269,770

Dentist profile was last update in July 2003.
Sources: Occupational Outlook Handbook, Michigan Occupational Information System "


am pretty sure these statistics can be debatable, but the truth is that these are just statistics! and every statistic data is bound by parameters of bias, confounding factors etc.....

 

[dc-10]

"
SPECIALTY MEDIAN NET INCOME
General Practitioner $136,942
Orthodontist $183,961
Pediatric Dentist $182,198
Endodontist $199,831
Prosthodontist $229,218
Oral Surgeon $183,374
Periodontist $269,770

QUOTE]

I don't believe those figures are accurate. I looked at the ADA books about specialists in private practice and according to those books, likely the most accurate info available, oral surgeons make the most at around 336K, then endos at 303K and pedo at 294K and I think orthos at like 289K. It brakes everything down according to age, hours worked, overhead, blah blah blah. I think oral surgeons age like 40-45 made the most at 411K. So I don't know why everybody always says endo makes the most?

 

[River13]

Please re-read my previous post. Gosh!! 😱

 

[sundar]

Hi,
I was wondering about the field dental anesthesiology. Is it a well paying field?. Also, I heard that it is not recognized as a speciality by ADA yet. Is that true?. TIA to all replies.

 

[786mine]

I wholely agree to this! if not, how come, it is such a coincidence (or infact a rule) that the top 5 or say top 10 in every class or for that matter all top scorers in national boards ALWAYS apply to Ortho/OFMS ? I've rarely heard or seen the topper of a class opting to do a residency in Perio or Pedo and claiming that he/she is doing it cuz he is "simply interested" in doing it!
i personally feel that the heirachy of choice of specialty currently, is as follows:
1.OFMS/Ortho(based on aptitude and ability to do extra studies for OFMS)
2.Endo
3. Pedo/Prosth(based on aptitude to extremism in dentistry for pros or based on interest and ability to cope with kids for pedo)
4. Perio
5.Public health, Oral radiology, Oral pathology (those interested in basic research and not really interested in practicing dentistry or who dont really like the life and stress of a clinical dentist)

Now, coming to the main topic of the thread...the money part!! well, 786, money can literally be made by any specialty, if you have the time and determination and if you work hard! I've known some orthodontists (hot field currently!) who are doing even poorer than some general dentists and I do know of some prosthodontists who are making millions during reconstructions ete etd.....if you see the amount of hard work oral surgeons have put through to get through their residency and the kind of hard work they do in their real life (discussed in another thread) you see the reason why they are known to be the "richest" among dental specialties...
all in all , irrespective of the field, i think being a "specialist" in itself an honor, as no matter what, a specialist has the expertise in his own field which a general dentist cannot achieve even after several years of practice and seniority! good luck though in chosing your specialty!

simpledoc, good post. I appreciate your words. The reason I wanted some input is becuase if you ask someone in person, you get that look "want to know which has more money? euh?" And honestly, the reason why I posted the question was that I get to know which field I can do pays more...do you understand?

Hi,
I was wondering about the field dental anesthesiology. Is it a well paying field?. Also, I heard that it is not recognized as a speciality by ADA yet. Is that true?. TIA to all replies.

sundar, I don't think ADA recognizes it, YET! And in most dental work, only local anesthesia is required. for a major op like (major) root canal or fasial surgery, I think a proper anesthesest are used.

 

[Profchaos]

Endo and Ortho, which makes more averagely?
I've heard different things from different people. Endo has a lucrative need and low overhead, and in Ortho if you are good at talking to people you can be a cash cow, but how good is good enough for you to talk to people?

 

[Profchaos]

if you work hard! I've known some orthodontists (hot field currently!) who are doing even poorer than some general dentists

Is it because the orthodontist simply sucks or because the general dentist you are talking about are really good and make over 300k a year.

 

[simpledoc]

ok now, all this while we have been discussing about how much different specialists actually "make" or "have made" based on statistics from the past...follow this intersting link from the Economic Research Institute which predicts what each profession or specialty "will make" in the year 2020. these projections take into consideration several factors like, growth, technological usage, abuse of the profession etc etc; i guess this is something which we guys need to consider...
anyways heres the link:
http://www.erieri.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=CareerPlanning.SalaryPotential&firstletter=P#appstart

and here are the numbers from the report:

DENTIST (GENERAL)
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $181706
ORAL SURGEON
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $275394
ORTHODONTIST
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $257374
PERIODONTIST
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $248542
PROSTHODONTIST
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $247182
ENDODONTIST
Year 2020 Mean Salary Potential: $218288

 

[kato999]

Better not go into endo. haven't heard that before...

 

[ItsGavinC]

Better not go into endo. haven't heard that before...

Ahh, come on. We'll be retired before 2020.
🙂

 

[simpledoc]

Ahh, come on. We'll be retired before 2020.
🙂

retire cuz of what? backache, neckache or suicide

 

[SuperTrooper]

retire cuz of what? backache, neckache or suicide

Suicide?!

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Come on guys, it starts with us. Let's eliminate that ridiculous rumor! 😀

 

[rocknightmare]

perio seems to be good. what are some of the surgeries does it entail?

 

[adamlc18]

Dental implants, gingival surgery, third molar extractions, bone grafting...plastic procedures...

I'm sure that someday periodontists will probably venture into orthognathic surgery and facial cosmetics as well...

The future of perio is so bright it's made me blind!

When did third molars become a perio procedure and what makes them fall under the scope of practice of perio??? And why would perio ever venture into orthognathics? Because you have to suture soft tissue up at the end of the surgery? Forgive me if I seem ignorant, but these procedures seem like OMFS procedures to me without question.

 

[EL GUAPO!]

Word on the street is that there are going to be some Perio/MD programs in the future, similar to OMFS/MD programs!

This is because of the incredibly strong relationship between periodontal health and systemic health. Periodontists need to know about general medicine...

Perio - it's the OMFS of the future...and the future is so bright that I can't do perio anymore because the future burned out my corneas.

After all, Periodontists are the "Plastic Surgeons of the mouth."

I fully expect they will replace Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons and Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons within a few years.

Just think, you could get your scaling and root planing and breast aug. all in the same visit.

 

[simpledoc]

After all, Periodontists are the "Plastic Surgeons of the mouth."

I fully expect they will replace Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons and Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons within a few years.

Just think, you could get your scaling and root planing and breast aug. all in the same visit.

i donno about the 1st statement, but i guess the last statement is total BS (if that was meant to be serious!) even ORAL surgeons, i feel arent fully qualified enough to do breast augmentations, then how the hell can GUM surgeons do it?

 

[River13]

After all, Periodontists are the "Plastic Surgeons of the mouth."

I fully expect they will replace Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons and Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons within a few years.

Just think, you could get your scaling and root planing and breast aug. all in the same visit.

 

[aphistis]

After all, Periodontists are the "Plastic Surgeons of the mouth."

I fully expect they will replace Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons and Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons within a few years.

Just think, you could get your scaling and root planing and breast aug. all in the same visit.

That'd be one long visit. I was in our grad perio clinic this afternoon as part of our intro to clinics course, and the speaker mentioned that surgery appointments are scheduled four hours long and routinely fully occupy the allotted time. When screwing in an implant takes longer than doing a hip replacement, I think it's time for some serious personnel re-evaluations.

 

[toofache32]

I'm sure that someday periodontists will probably venture into orthognathic surgery and facial cosmetics as well...

Huh?

 

[manishapatel]

i guess i hve heard that before that endo will be dying soon with more and more GP's not interested in "selling" out their cases to endodontists, thanks to rotary and other easier techniques of instrumentation. I guess that's the reason endo ranks at the bottom in the projected income for 2020, thats sad, becos I was almost getting interested in endo🙁

 

[LestatZinnie]

opinion of some dentists and profs: most dental specialties are in their best times right now because demand from baby boomers are high. so things are good for them. however, they're not so sure things will be so good for the students in dental schools right now, because it'll be 5, 10 years down the road before they finish their specialties and the boom time may be waning already. people in our generation mostly don't have severe dental problems to require endo, perio, or prostho so these areas are probably not going to be very profitable in the next 30 years, which is the time frame we have to look at. ortho will always be in demand, as cosmetic dentistry.

in sum things are pretty good now, but will they continue to be by the time we're in the work force? the situation is somewhat similar, but not as bad as, people i knew who all wanted to go into computer science/engineering during the dot.com boom of the late 90's. sadly, even before they graduated, the bubble has burst so basically they missed the train.

i'm sure dentistry will be good for the next 10, 20 years...beyond that i'm not so sure. can only cross my fingers and hope i'll have enough for retirement before the gas runs out.

 

[OMFS2B]

That'd be one long visit. I was in our grad perio clinic this afternoon as part of our intro to clinics course, and the speaker mentioned that surgery appointments are scheduled four hours long and routinely fully occupy the allotted time. When screwing in an implant takes longer than doing a hip replacement, I think it's time for some serious personnel re-evaluations.

That's the truth! Perio residents will spend over 2.5 hours placing an implant. When I do an implant as a dental student, the scheduling nurse gives me 1 hour from anesthetic to last suture.

 

[GQ1]

people in our generation mostly don't have severe dental problems to require endo, perio, or prostho so these areas are probably not going to be very profitable in the next 30 years, which is the time frame we have to look at. ortho will always be in demand, as cosmetic dentistry.



consider this for ortho
1. the number of under 18s this year became less than the no of over 65s
2. OECs increasing the number of dentists who can do orthodontia
3. pedo residents are learning ortho
4.invisalign can treat 75% of adult cases
5. we re seeing more ortho courses for gps in every throw away journal and conference
6. orthos never retire so harder for the new grads to establish themselves unlike other specialties where you burn out by mid fifties.

 

[aphistis]

i guess i hve heard that before that endo will be dying soon with more and more GP's not interested in "selling" out their cases to endodontists, thanks to rotary and other easier techniques of instrumentation. I guess that's the reason endo ranks at the bottom in the projected income for 2020, thats sad, becos I was almost getting interested in endo🙁

Yeah, good thing you found that out in time. That would've been awful to choose a career just because it's something you enjoy & find fulfilling.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I guess that's the reason endo ranks at the bottom in the projected income for 2020, thats sad, becos I was almost getting interested in endo🙁

You CANNOT take that site seriously. They are peddling their wares, just like everybody else. They are a salary survey site, and they use those surveys to make "projections" about the future.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Dental implants, gingival surgery, third molar extractions, bone grafting...plastic procedures...

I'm sure that someday periodontists will probably venture into orthognathic surgery and facial cosmetics as well...

The future of perio is so bright it's made me blind!

Raz----could you please send me whatever you take in the morning, because reality is too much for me as well. 😀

 

[DDS2BE]

Word on the street is that there are going to be some Perio/MD programs in the future, similar to OMFS/MD programs!

This is because of the incredibly strong relationship between periodontal health and systemic health. Periodontists need to know about general medicine...

Perio - it's the OMFS of the future...and the future is so bright that I can't do perio anymore because the future burned out my corneas.

Dude, whatever the **** you're on... it works!

 

[UTDental]

Fluoride can't keep up with Mountain Dew and Coca-Cola. Dentists will always be busy... they're up to their elbows in decay. Future is looking good.

opinion of some dentists and profs: most dental specialties are in their best times right now because demand from baby boomers are high. so things are good for them. however, they're not so sure things will be so good for the students in dental schools right now, because it'll be 5, 10 years down the road before they finish their specialties and the boom time may be waning already. people in our generation mostly don't have severe dental problems to require endo, perio, or prostho so these areas are probably not going to be very profitable in the next 30 years, which is the time frame we have to look at. ortho will always be in demand, as cosmetic dentistry.

in sum things are pretty good now, but will they continue to be by the time we're in the work force? the situation is somewhat similar, but not as bad as, people i knew who all wanted to go into computer science/engineering during the dot.com boom of the late 90's. sadly, even before they graduated, the bubble has burst so basically they missed the train.

i'm sure dentistry will be good for the next 10, 20 years...beyond that i'm not so sure. can only cross my fingers and hope i'll have enough for retirement before the gas runs out.

 

[J2AZ]

Better not go into endo. haven't heard that before...

Do you all thing Endo may be a dying specialty due to implants? If insurance starts covering implants would it be better to yank the old tooth and throw in and implant and a crown.

 

[ItsGavinC]

If insurance starts covering implants would it be better to yank the old tooth and throw in and implant and a crown.

Depends on the scenario.

 

[kato999]

People have been predicting the death of the endodontics for years. IMO there will always be people wanting to keep their teeth and thus endo will never get completely replaced. However, I do think with lower costs of implants and the widespread use of them, endo will be in less demand in the years to come.

 

[DDSSlave]

...would it be better to yank the old tooth and throw in and implant and a crown.

As great as implants are, if the tooth is restorable, endo is almost always preferred. Unless there's perio issues or some other crazy reason... Also, I don't think implants will drop significantly below endo/crown anytime soon. So, unless you're talking about adding crown lengthening, etc to the endo and crown, endo will remain the cheaper route. Now where implants are great is as an alternative to a 3-unit bridge (etc) which may cost about the same as a single tooth implant.

 

[12YearOldKid]

You also have to realize that endo may not continue to be as profitable in the future as it now is. Today's endo fees are holdovers from back in the days when 3 and 4 visit endo was the norm. Because endo is now easier and quicker than ever before, not only are more GPs doing their own, but they can leave fees untouched to remain competitive in the market place while still turning a nice profit.

This would keep fees fairly stagnant for the specialists too -- it would still be a profitable specialty but not the cash cow that it has been for the last 10 years or so. Just a thought.