but I can't help myself. I'm really stuck in a rut. Should I do my away rotations at places that are reach programs, or ones that are "realistic". I don't even know what's considered realistic, because I know people who've managed to match at places they did not consider realistic. People who've matched, do you think it helped to do away rotations? Did you end up matching at the places through which you rotated? Any thoughts on the matter? I would really appreciate your help...
Dead Horse Beaten Again...
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I did my away rotation at a program that my home program PD said was very realistic for me. I worked hard, got good verbal feedback from faculty and residents while there, a strong written eval on the rotation, and a strong LOR from a faculty member. I ranked them #1 and let them know that, and didn't match.
Who knows, maybe they ranked me higher than they would have otherwise.
But there are no guarantees in this business.
Good luck.
I would say it depends on how competitive an applicant you are.
If you are above average, i.e. have 240+ on Step I, or go to a top 20 school or are AOA/close to AOA, then doing an away at a reach school might help.
However if you are an average to below average applicant, then doing an elective at BP or Wills probably won't help you much. You would be much better served doing rotations at less competitive programs.
If you are above average, i.e. have 240+ on Step I, or go to a top 20 school or are AOA/close to AOA, then doing an away at a reach school might help.
However if you are an average to below average applicant, then doing an elective at BP or Wills probably won't help you much. You would be much better served doing rotations at less competitive programs.
i did my aways at places that i thought were "realistic" for me and i think it definitely helped. whether the interviews i received from each of these places were "courtesy" or not was sort of not part of the picture when i got to the interview and the faculty and residents were all a little more more friendly since they already knew me. also, i had a faculty member from one of my aways write me a LOR and at that interview, each interviewer was impressed that "one of their own" had so many good things to say about me. it is a random process but i would highly recommend doing aways and impressing them. ophtho is a small world and everyone has good stats, it's the personality part that differs and how to fit in to different programs....
hope that helps.
hope that helps.
I would highly reccommend doing an away rotation. I chose to do an elective at a "reach" program and it helped in several ways: #1) I was able to get a Big Wig LOR, which helped me get more interviews and #2) I ended up matching at this program, which was a very pleasant surprise. I will add the caveat that most people who did an away elective at this program did not receive interview invitations, so it doesn't always pay off. If you are not able to get a Big Wig LOR from your home program, however, I would consider going to a reach program. Hope that helps....
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Sometimes I wonder how good a letter from a "big-wig" you've probably only worked with a few times in a month can be. Do they really know you?
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When scheduling an away rotation, find out as much information as possible. I made sure before I committed that I would work one-on-one with a single attending for most of the month. As a result, he got to know me extremely well and could write an excellent LOR. I agree, most away rotations have you bouncing back and forth between attendings and residents that you barely have to time to get to know them. Do your homework, don't schedule a rotation blindly, as you may be extremely disappointed.
I did an away rotation at a top 3 program. I feel that it helped me get more interviews, and also match at a top 3 program (not where I rotated).
I also agree with the above: Nothing is guarenteed! Don't expect an interview just because you rotate there. Also, remember that an away rotation is a month long interview. You are constantly scrutinized by faculty, residents, and staff (everyone talks). Make sure you are on your A-game and get to know everyone!!
I would add to the above post that even if you can get a big-wig letter from your home rotation, another big-wig LOR from a top institution can't hurt.
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Alleyes:
Think it's hard just to be able to work with a single attending for a month. I imagine it's multi-fold more difficult if not impossible to work the entire month with a big wig, especially at an away rotation. How did you manage to pull that off?
Wallaby:
How did you manage to get a strong letter from a big wig?
Think it's hard just to be able to work with a single attending for a month. I imagine it's multi-fold more difficult if not impossible to work the entire month with a big wig, especially at an away rotation. How did you manage to pull that off?
Wallaby:
How did you manage to get a strong letter from a big wig?
Bascom will allow you to work one on one with an attending for 2 weeks and do a general rotation for the other two weeks. USC has you work with one person but its research oriented. Mass Eye and Ear is one on one as is Stanford. I did an away at a program where they generally have you bounce around but the faculty members at my program set me up with someone there so I really ended up working with only 3 docs over the month there. The program didn't care.
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It is not impossible, it just takes calling the various coordinators at programs of interest and inquiring how your time will be spent on the rotation. At my home program, we can choose to do a month with a specific attending. At my away rotation, I took an ocular pathology rotation and spent the entire month with the same attending.
I also considered other away rotations:
1) Doheny has a research/clinical rotation where you can pick an attending.
2) Utah allows you to work with 1 attending for 2 weeks, then a member of the selection committee for the other 2 weeks.
3) Bascom allows you to work with a specific attending for 2 weeks.
4) Any of the ocular pathology rotations: Wills with Dr. Eagle, Utah with Dr. Mammalis, Bascom with Dr. Dubovy, Iowa, and others.
5) Others on this forum can add others.
I agree with much of what was said above. Be sure to call ahead and know what you are getting yourself into. At a big program, if you are not set up with a specific faculty, you can end up getting a lot of exposure to the residents,fellows, and multiple faculty, but not necessarily the 'decision-makers' when it comes to residency selection. If your goal is to get a letter, I would say that it is imperative to plan your rotation with a specific faculty before you commit so you maximize your time and effort and aren't left spinning your wheels. Best of luck.
Thanks for all of the responses, which have been very helpful. However, for those who feel it DID help to do aways at very competitive programs, what kind of applicants were you baseline? I guess my bigger point is, would you have likely ended up doing well in the match regardless?
The issue is that I feel as though you give something up either way - do an away at a solid but non-top 10 program can help in showing interest, but doing an away at a top 10 can help get an interview you wouldn't otherwise assuming you impress someone. Why is everything associated with medicine so anxiety-provoking?
The issue is that I feel as though you give something up either way - do an away at a solid but non-top 10 program can help in showing interest, but doing an away at a top 10 can help get an interview you wouldn't otherwise assuming you impress someone. Why is everything associated with medicine so anxiety-provoking?
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The above response is as good as it gets in terms of answering your question, unfortunately. Applying to residency is a c***p shoot; there are a lot of factors going into matching, some are more tangible than others. Doing an away rotation can work in your advantage and just as easily it can work against you. You can schedule a rotation at your dream program on the other coast with a "big wig" 4 months ahead just to find out that you have been switched to a junior faculty member because your professor went to a meeting in Hawaii. You may end up following a super star-gunner-know-it-all-already-read-all-the-BCSC-series med student and look like you don't know jack to that same "big wig" professor. You may simply get someone who just does not like you ("big wigs" are human too) because you are a _____ (insert your favorite reason). These things can happen at a top, middle, or bottom program. USC/Doheny is a direct feeder for Hopkins students (1-2/year, most years). Wilmer faculty will kill for a female resident from Harvard. Each program has a specific agenda, biases, and preferences. Ranking decisions are made in a smoky dark rooms in the middle of the night (well, kind of). So, my point is, treat your application very seriously (imagine you are Barak Obama running for an office), but overall just do your best. Match is in your favor, over 80% of US seniors match. That's a fact. If you are a DO or an FMG, than I wish you all the luck in the world, you are going to need it.
🙂You have no idea🙂. This is just the beginning. The higher up you go, the less objective this process becomes. Fellowships matches are pretty much dependent on phone calls and whom you know. Job search is even worse. Get used to this feeling, it will be with you for a long time.
Oh yea, I have been told I am a glass half empty kind of guy
Very good point! It's just hard to relinquish the illusion of control. It's such a pretty one.
🙂You have no idea🙂. This is just the beginning. The higher up you go, the less objective this process becomes. Fellowships matches are pretty much dependent on phone calls and whom you know. Job search is even worse. Get used to this feeling, it will be with you for a long time.
Oh yea, I have been told I am a glass half empty kind of guy
Yaaaaaaaay! ::starts singing:: Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows...
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What if the DO student is top of his class, 95 percentile on step I, several publications, etc... Just give up on matching in Ophtho period, or just top-tier programs?
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Keep in mind that most people don't know what percentile boardscores are. A 99 ranges from 238 - 270+.overall, then a 239/99 is prob like 84th percentile or so among all test takers (assuming a bell cuve with avg score overall of 220 with standard dev of 17). What's more..Since the avg matched applicant gets a 235, that means your '99' is prob around 50th percentile amongst matched applicants if you got a 238. The two digit score is not a percentile. So since half or more of the matched ppl have a 99, you're prob at a significant disadvantage to have anything less (95). And even within a 99, there is a big diff between 238 and 270.
This two digit scores are misleading and people should report three digit scores bc the 2 digit ones are useless when you look at competitive applicants in competitve fields. What's more, a lot of ppl post percetiles when nobody knows what the percentiles are.
Also, why go to DO school if you wanted to do an MD residency.. There are DO programs out there.
This two digit scores are misleading and people should report three digit scores bc the 2 digit ones are useless when you look at competitive applicants in competitve fields. What's more, a lot of ppl post percetiles when nobody knows what the percentiles are.
Also, why go to DO school if you wanted to do an MD residency.. There are DO programs out there.
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I feel that I was a strong applicant and may have done well without an away rotation. However, I think that my rotation at a top program and an excellent LOR from there, helped me get many more interviews at great programs, thus giving me more of a selection. As it was said above, there is a lot of randomness to this whole process, but wouldn't you rather try to stack as many cards in your favor as possible. Along with the other important factors, LORs are EXTREMELY important!!
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Maybe as a DO try to do an externship at a program you are interested in. I read on some other thread that many programs will disregard all DO applications. If you do an externship there and are a star they will take a more in depth look into your application. It's unfortunately an uphill battle. Good luck.
I did an away where I liked the program for nuts and bolts reasons (reputation, geography, retina dept), but wasn't sure how I'd "fit in". Also I wanted the opportunity for the program to get know me, since no one from my school ever matched there, and they "take people they know". This was definitely a "reach" program for me.
My away was almost 100% in the residency run clinic, with little interaction with attendings. But...I got along very well with the residents, and tried to make the attending interactions count. I didn't ask for a letter (didn't know any attendings well enough), but told the residents it was my top choice, (by the end I knew it would be), and wound up matching there.
Only caveat is that I am a better candidate in person than on paper or in a 15-minute interview. There are smarter, more-published students from better schools than me. Yet I am a friendly, non-gunning, hardworking person that works well with people, patients and colleagues. It's hard to relay that on an application.
I say this not to be self-congratulatory, but simply to point out that you should know your strengths. If your application is stellar and you interview well, a month-long elective somewhere may hurt, since one innocent faux pas can sink you.
For me, it was my only shot at this program, so I had nothing to lose.
