Dealing with dilemma...

[Joe Jewel]

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Hello everyone,

Hope everyone is having a good start to the second quarter of the year. I have a longer story that I would like to summarize and get some honest opinions. After a decade of waiting to apply, I went through with my plan last year in 2020. Let me start with a snapshot:

Presumed positives?

1. BS, MBA, MBS
2. ~ 3.6 SGPA, ~ 3.8 CGPA
3. ~ 65-70%ile MCAT
4. Unique P.S. (tales spanning thousands of miles globally)
5. Ok LORs
6. 250+ scribe, shadow, volunteer hours
7. 2,500+ hrs. working in urgent care (2019- present)

Perceived negatives?

1. Lifelong ESL student
2. Non-citizen status (parents came to America nearly five decades ago, but grew up mostly abroad)
3. Entering fourth decade in life

It has been quite a journey for me to get to this point. When I applied to MD schools (second half of October) and DO schools (second half of December), I emptied the tank and used all my resources applying to every school available (close to triple digits in total). My goal is to go to medical school, slightly disregarding 'location', 'mission', or 'philosophy' be it allopathic or osteopathic, since I lived in many places, believe in the mission of learning to contribute to society and helping everyone, and worked for MDs and DOs without strong preference.

My dilemma is: I have heard from a little more than two thirds of the schools. A handful MDs waitlisted for interviews, with only one happening but it resulted in a low position on their alternate list. A handful of DOs interviewed me, almost exclusively newer schools, with one acceptance (on lower end) and the rest wait-listing me. Currently, my interest is in pursuing a surgical specialty for various reasons. Is it logical to run with what I get, although I know the cycle is supposedly still open for rolling admissions mainly for DO? Or am I selling myself short after the multi-year effort? In other words, should I just wait and reapply early in the upcoming cycle in hopes of a shot at an MD spot or high-tier DO schools?

Thank you for reading this.

Best regards.

P.S. BTW, this is not an April Fools prank, I already had my share for the day 🙂

 

[Dr Meow]

MD is getting insane. Many top people with amazing looking apps are getting rejected and your percentiles arent very competitive (damn the easter word swaps. its making it annoying to figure out some words).

By "flowers" in the easter word swap, i assume that means mcat. 65% to 70% on mcat is not competitive at all. It's not impressive for DO and definitely not for MD.

And DO is getting more and more competitive as well. Every single year. And DO reputation is getting stronger every year.

From what Ive read, if your surgery goal is general surgery then DO is fine. Anything else, MD.

But expecting a MD acceptance can be unrealistic.

Also, since you put all your eggs just into applying and getting in, an opportunity you may not have again, I vote take the acceptance and run with it. Your only chance with that low mcat is DO anyways. And high tier DO isnt guaranteed even with reapplication.

Btw is the school one of the for profit schools or nonprofit? Just wondering.

 

[Joe Jewel]

MD is getting insane. Many top people with amazing looking apps are getting rejected and your percentiles arent very competitive (damn the easter word swaps. its making it annoying to figure out some words).

By "flowers" in the easter word swap, i assume that means flowers.

And DO is getting more and more competitive as well. Every single year. And DO reputation is getting stronger every year.

From what Ive read, if your surgery goal is general surgery then DO is fine. Anything else, MD.

But expecting a MD acceptance can be unrealistic.

Also, since you put all your eggs just into applying and getting in, an opportunity you may not have again, I vote take the acceptance and run with it.

Btw is the school one of the for profit schools or nonprofit? Just wondering.

Thank you @Dr.Meowz for your reply. The word swap is bothersome, but I guess it is an interesting change. I would like to explore surgery in all forms but not leaning towards any specific domain at the moment, since I will also experience non-surgical specialties during rotations. Your honesty is appreciated in regard to taking any acceptance. I am starting to believe that it is the logical decision to take, considering future uncertainty. The school is non-profit as far as I know. Did not want to disclose more since I am waiting on a couple of other DO waitlists, and hopefully I have another option as a plausible alternative.

 

[Dral]

You applied to many schools. You have to ask yourself what type of improvement will happen to your overall app between now and next year that would hopefully result in a more desirable outcome.

If the answer is ‘not much’, then I might consider going with what you get this year.

 

[Joe Jewel]

You applied to many schools. You have to ask yourself what type of improvement will happen to your overall app between now and next year that would hopefully result in a more desirable outcome?

If the answer is ‘not much’, then I might consider going with what you get this year.

Thank you @Dral for your thoughtful response. To be honest, the only things I can think of are: I would be done with my MBS degree, possibly getting a committee letter from the program, and the obvious additional hours/work in healthcare. When it comes to the MCAT, I do not plan on taking the risk of retaking; especially considering that I have not taken a chemistry or physics class in many many years, and as I alluded to earlier English is still my second language. Last but not least, I think going for another degree or certification will present a tremendous financial, temporal, and logistical challenge. I will go with the advice of the majority, including my family and friends and go to any school open-minded enough to offer me a seat in the incoming class/cohort.

 

[Goro]

Hello everyone,

Hope everyone is having a good start to the second quarter of the year. I have a longer story that I would like to summarize and get some honest opinions. After a decade of waiting to apply, I went through with my plan last year in 2020. Let me start with a snapshot:

Presumed positives?

1. BS, MBA, MBS
2. ~ 3.6 SGPA, ~ 3.8 CGPA
3. ~ 65-70%ile MCAT
4. Unique P.S. (tales spanning thousands of miles globally)
5. Ok LORs
6. 250+ scribe, shadow, volunteer hours
7. 2,500+ hrs. working in urgent care (2019- present)

Perceived negatives?

1. Lifelong ESL student
2. Non-citizen status (parents came to America nearly five decades ago, but grew up mostly abroad)
3. Entering fourth decade in life

It has been quite a journey for me to get to this point. When I applied to MD schools (second half of October) and DO schools (second half of December), I emptied the tank and used all my resources applying to every school available (close to triple digits in total). My goal is to go to medical school, slightly disregarding 'location', 'mission', or 'philosophy' be it allopathic or osteopathic, since I lived in many places, believe in the mission of learning to contribute to society and helping everyone, and worked for MDs and DOs without strong preference.

My dilemma is: I have heard from a little more than two thirds of the schools. A handful MDs waitlisted for interviews, with only one happening but it resulted in a low position on their alternate list. A handful of DOs interviewed me, almost exclusively newer schools, with one acceptance (on lower end) and the rest wait-listing me. Currently, my interest is in pursuing a surgical specialty for various reasons. Is it logical to run with what I get, although I know the cycle is supposedly still open for rolling admissions mainly for DO? Or am I selling myself short after the multi-year effort? In other words, should I just wait and reapply early in the upcoming cycle in hopes of a shot at an MD spot or high-tier DO schools?

Thank you for reading this.

Best regards.

P.S. BTW, this is not an April Fools prank, I already had my share for the day 🙂

Ordinarily, I'd advise taking the accept if it's your only one at a brand new school. But if it's one of the ones on my Bad Boy list, I can't fault you for turning down the accept. The trick will be to figure out what's wrong with y our app and improve it.

Ahh, I can see that you applied too late to MD and DO.

You can expect some big WL movement at DO schools come May/June, when the MD bound people dump their DO accepts.

PM on what school you got accepted to and then I can advise further.

 

[Joe Jewel]

Ordinarily, I'd advise taking the accept if it's your only one at a brand new school. But if it's one of the ones on my Bad Boy list, I can't fault you for turning down the accept. The trick will be to figure out what's wrong with y our app and improve it.

Ahh, I can see that you applied too late to MD and DO.

You can expect some big WL movement at DO schools come May/June, when the MD bound people dump their DO accepts.

PM on what school you got accepted to and then I can advise further.

Thank you @Goro for your insights. I really do not have an issue with any school that would accept me, since I applied to them for a reason (in my case I want to have a chance at becoming a physician one day). The thing is: do I still have a chance to hear from DO schools? Also, is there a reasonable shot at MD next cycle? I pretty much spent my savings on applying last year, put in hundreds of hours to finish up primary and secondaries, and was expecting to get at least a couple of acceptances by now. Maybe I did not solidify my case before sending my app? Or is it a truly exceptional year? I know my stats are not outstandingly great, but they are still in the upper third in most categories...

 

[Old_Mil]

Hello everyone,

Hope everyone is having a good start to the second quarter of the year. I have a longer story that I would like to summarize and get some honest opinions. After a decade of waiting to apply, I went through with my plan last year in 2020. Let me start with a snapshot:

Presumed positives?

1. BS, MBA, MBS
2. ~ 3.6 SGPA, ~ 3.8 CGPA
3. ~ 65-70%ile MCAT
4. Unique P.S. (tales spanning thousands of miles globally)
5. Ok LORs
6. 250+ scribe, shadow, volunteer hours
7. 2,500+ hrs. working in urgent care (2019- present)

Perceived negatives?

1. Lifelong ESL student
2. Non-citizen status (parents came to America nearly five decades ago, but grew up mostly abroad)
3. Entering fourth decade in life

It has been quite a journey for me to get to this point. When I applied to MD schools (second half of October) and DO schools (second half of December), I emptied the tank and used all my resources applying to every school available (close to triple digits in total). My goal is to go to medical school, slightly disregarding 'location', 'mission', or 'philosophy' be it allopathic or osteopathic, since I lived in many places, believe in the mission of learning to contribute to society and helping everyone, and worked for MDs and DOs without strong preference.

My dilemma is: I have heard from a little more than two thirds of the schools. A handful MDs waitlisted for interviews, with only one happening but it resulted in a low position on their alternate list. A handful of DOs interviewed me, almost exclusively newer schools, with one acceptance (on lower end) and the rest wait-listing me. Currently, my interest is in pursuing a surgical specialty for various reasons. Is it logical to run with what I get, although I know the cycle is supposedly still open for rolling admissions mainly for DO? Or am I selling myself short after the multi-year effort? In other words, should I just wait and reapply early in the upcoming cycle in hopes of a shot at an MD spot or high-tier DO schools?

Thank you for reading this.

Best regards.

P.S. BTW, this is not an April Fools prank, I already had my share for the day 🙂

First, as a fellow non-trad, a surgical specialty is not realistic.

You finish premed, you get in, and four years later you realize that you've burned a significant percentage of your remaining working career in the process. So you limit yourself to three year long residency programs so you can get out, start working, and pay down those student loans.

As admirable as your motivations may be, in the end we all get to an age where we can't work, need ro retire, have to have health insurance to cover us till retirement age. You can't simply chase dreams and find yourself with a serious illness in your 50s or 60s without benefits (something like 80% of physicians in my field work as 1099 independent contractors and have no access to benefits like healthcare outside the marketplace).

So the reality is that if you are going to execute this plan, you need to count on going into internal medicine, family medicine, or peds.

Second, if you are in your 40s and are determined to do this, you dont have the luxury of waiting as admissions cycles pass. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as the saying goes.

 

[Joe Jewel]

First, as a fellow non-trad, a surgical specialty is not realistic.

You finish premed, you get in, and four years later you realize that you've burned a significant percentage of your remaining working career in the process. So you limit yourself to three year long residency programs so you can get out, start working, and pay down those student loans.

As admirable as your motivations may be, in the end we all get to an age where we can't work, need ro retire, have to have health insurance to cover us till retirement age. You can't simply chase dreams and find yourself with a serious illness in your 50s or 60s without benefits (something like 80% of physicians in my field work as 1099 independent contractors and have no access to benefits like healthcare outside the marketplace).

So the reality is that if you are going to execute this plan, you need to count on going into internal medicine, family medicine, or peds.

Second, if you are in your 40s and are determined to do this, you dont have the luxury of waiting as admissions cycles pass. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as the saying goes.

Thank you @Old_Mil for the dose of realism. I definitely agree with you regarding career and life timelines. My interest in medicine stems from personal tragedy among many other factors. Therefore, my goal is go for what I like and want, and then see what comes of it. BTW, I am 'still' in my thirties which I thought means that I started my fourth decade? Either way, an issue of aging or timing is still hypothetical, as long as I am able to obtain a medical degree and receive training afterwards. Your candor is much appreciated.

 

[Dral]

Thank you @Goro for your insights. I really do not have an issue with any school that would accept me, since I applied to them for a reason (in my case I want to have a chance at becoming a physician one day). The thing is: do I still have a chance to hear from DO schools? Also, is there a reasonable shot at MD next cycle? I pretty much spent my savings on applying last year, put in hundreds of hours to finish up primary and secondaries, and was expecting to get at least a couple of acceptances by now. Maybe I did not solidify my case before sending my app? Or is it a truly exceptional year? I know my stats are not outstandingly great, but they are still in the upper third in most categories...

You could have a shot, but as Goro pointed out, you applied late. If you applied early next year maybe you'd have a better chance. It's hard to know for sure though.

This seems to me as one of the biggest mistakes applicants make (applying late). I understand that things come up and people wait for things to be published and such, but y'all gotta try your hardest to have things in the second they are able to be accepted. People review these things on a rolling basis and the later you have your materials in, the higher the chance your app may not get an interview invite. Someone with a similar app may look great in the first batch of apps and get an invite...by the third or so batch, that same app may not look as good after interview slots have started to fill up.

We'd all like to think this is an absolutely just process where people with similar apps on paper have a similar shot at an interview invite, but there is subjectivity to it as well as a temporal element as aforementioned.

 

[Joe Jewel]

You could have a shot, but as Goro pointed out, you applied late. If you applied early next year maybe you'd have a better chance. It's hard to know for sure though.

This seems to me as one of the biggest mistakes applicants make (applying late). I understand that things come up and people wait for things to be published and such, but y'all gotta try your hardest to have things in the second they are able to be accepted. People review these things on a rolling basis and the later you have your materials in, the higher the chance your app may not get an interview invite. Someone with a similar app may look great in the first batch of apps and get an invite...by the third or so batch, that same app may not look as good after interview slots have started to fill up.

We'd all like to think this is an absolutely just process where people with similar apps on paper have a similar shot at an interview invite, but there is subjectivity to it as well as a temporal element as aforementioned.

@Dral that's exactly what I experienced. I have been told by a couple of schools that my application was on the late side. However, it did not appear to me that most places have the man power to go over applications thoroughly, especially considering my app may not seem 'attractive' at first sight so to speak. There have been instances that admins would contact me to ask about a prereq because having 200+ hours of coursework (undergrad and in 2 masters) is not straightforward to comb through. What held me back is working two jobs and the initial uncertainty of the pandemic last year. More important is that I was very hesitant to sit for the MCAT until late summer as a decade has passed since I took basic science classes. I mostly worked in banking/finance while waiting to become eligible to apply to medical school. It is a really long and unusual story that may deter some programs from considering my app. At this point, my main quandary is whether to accept my fate this cycle, or take a big gamble and reapply.

 

[Dral]

Also consider that your age could possibly hinder you when applying to surgical fields. It's up for discussion if it should be a determining factor or not. Regardless, the real world of residency apps/match acts differently than what may be ideal. There are conversations across SDN about this type of thing. So even if you get into a better DO or MD school you may still have issues matching down the line. Maybe not, but it's something to think about. No med school is ever a golden ticket to getting into a residency of choice.

 

[Joe Jewel]

Also consider that your age could possibly hinder you when applying to surgical fields. It's up for discussion if it should be a determining factor or not. Regardless, the real world of residency apps/match acts differently than what may be ideal. There are conversations across SDN about this type of thing. So even if you get into a better DO or MD school you may still have issues matching down the line. Maybe not, but it's something to think about. No med school is ever a golden ticket to getting into a residency of choice.

You are more exposed to and up to date on those discussions @Dral. Personally, I am not planning on starting a family (my parents are not fans of the idea but will be fine), generally speaking I tend to keep up with physical activity, and I hope my passion for any field will show through academic progress and social skills once I am at that point of applying for residency training. After spending most of my life ten thousand miles away, it would be a miracle that I have a chance to enroll in medical school in America (with tons of hard work and persistence), and I believe that I can once again muster up the fortitude to deal with things down the line. As I mentioned earlier, my main concern is that after putting myself in a tough position this cycle, am I gonna get a 'fairer' shake next time around? Or is the deck already stacked up against my odds that I need to go for it as soon as possible with any chance I am blessed with?

 

[Dral]

It's not just based on physical abilities. I have seen conversations and statements alluding to the fact that due to 'surgery culture' they like younger folks who are more likely to fall in line, not question things, and be more 'moldable'.

I'm sure you take what we say with a grain of salt, but I would check your school with Goro (as they offered to do) and if it's ok, I would probably go with it. I'm afraid you're taking a fairly big risk waiting another year without much improvement other than finishing up courses and applying earlier.

Regardless where you go, if you wait to apply, that's one extra year. If you apply for a surgical specialty and don't match, that's potentially another year you'd be waiting.

My thought would be to take this acceptance. Go in working toward surgery, but think about and develop an alternate specialty plan from day one. Also be mentally prepared for the possibility of not getting into a surgical field. You'll need a healthy mix of optimism with being realistic.

 

[Joe Jewel]

It's not just based on physical abilities. I have seen conversations and statements alluding to the fact that due to 'surgery culture' they like younger folks who are more likely to fall in line, not question things, and be more 'moldable'.

I'm sure you take what we say with a grain of salt, but I would check your school with Goro (as they offered to do) and if it's ok, I would probably go with it. I'm afraid you're taking a fairly big risk waiting another year without much improvement other than finishing up courses and applying earlier.

Regardless where you go, if you wait to apply, that's one extra year. If you apply for a surgical specialty and don't match, that's potentially another year you'd be waiting.

My thought would be to take this acceptance. Go in working toward surgery, but think about and develop an alternate specialty plan from day one. Also be mentally prepared for the possibility of not getting into a surgical field. You'll need a healthy mix of optimism with being realistic.

This is why regardless of the different chatter on SDN, it is still a good public forum in my opinion. I don't necessarily know about the 'moldable' part but I think that I possess decent flexibility; living, working, and studying in several countries and at various institutions. For reference, I have a distant relative who was an IMG and ended up getting into neurosurgery at a top program. The caveat is that we sensed that he had a long list of 'connections', along with being a hard-worker. My brother, who is younger, had a difficult time matching into primary care with great grades and boards being an IMG, too. They applied almost twenty years apart nonetheless.

Not to reveal 'too much', I have a few cousins who went to med school in the past decade and I followed their journey. One of them was somewhat disappointed not to get their specialty of choice/interest. He did end up with his alternate and is fine with it. I try to be cognizant of the increasing overall competitiveness and inherent biases in the system. My ultimate goal is to become a physician, and my hope that I do not miss out on something because of my own flawed decision making process and inexperience. Thank you again for the great feedback @Dral.

 

[Stranger00120]

This is why regardless of the different chatter on SDN, it is still a good public forum in my opinion. I don't necessarily know about the 'moldable' part but I think that I possess decent flexibility; living, working, and studying in several countries and at various institutions. For reference, I have a distant relative who was an IMG and ended up getting into neurosurgery at a top program. The caveat is that we sensed that he had a long list of 'connections', along with being a hard-worker. My brother, who is younger, had a difficult time matching into primary care with great grades and boards being an IMG, too. They applied almost twenty years apart nonetheless.

Not to reveal 'too much', I have a few cousins who went to med school in the past decade and I followed their journey. One of them was somewhat disappointed not to get their specialty of choice/interest. He did end up with his alternate and is fine with it. I try to be cognizant of the increasing overall competitiveness and inherent biases in the system. My ultimate goal is to become a physician, and my hope that I do not miss out on something because of my own flawed decision making process and inexperience. Thank you again for the great feedback @Dral.

If your goal is to be a physician, I would take the acceptance. As long as you work hard and graduate you're guaranteed to be a physician four years from now (I know match is also a hurdle, but you can't get to that one without getting through medical school). If you wait and don't get in next year you've not only put everything off by a year, but you may never end up a physician.

Could you still hear from schools? Probably, I was offered another interview a few weeks ago. Do I think it's likely I'm interviewing for anything other than the waitlist at this point? No. I have an acceptance after five application cycles, and I'm absolutely thrilled with it. Take it from someone who would have killed to get in on their first cycle, take the acceptance.

 

[Joe Jewel]

If your goal is to be a physician, I would take the acceptance. As long as you work hard and graduate you're guaranteed to be a physician four years from now (I know match is also a hurdle, but you can't get to that one without getting through medical school). If you wait and don't get in next year you've not only put everything off by a year, but you may never end up a physician.

Could you still hear from schools? Probably, I was offered another interview a few weeks ago. Do I think it's likely I'm interviewing for anything other than the waitlist at this point? No. I have an acceptance after five application cycles, and I'm absolutely thrilled with it. Take it from someone who would have killed to get in on their first cycle, take the acceptance.

Congrats on your great accomplishment and perseverance @Stranger00120 . When I said that I want to be a physician, I truly mean an allopathic or osteopathic doctor. I am not wanting to be pigeonholed into a prototype by my program; such as "we develop awesome primary care providers" or "you need to serve in rural areas". While I understand that it comes with the territory at times, especially considering some of my stats, I do not wish to limit my potential if the schools lack interest in me.
I have no problem with any of the minutia of medical school, but I want to be autonomously developed rather than methodically manufactured. Some of my favorite physicians are rural-based primary care doctors. I just do not want to be limited in exploring other fields, or be in a situation where it is frowned upon to present a proposition that may conflict with the prevailing 'currents' at school. I am waiting to hear back from about a dozen DO and a few MD, but realistically not expecting to be invited, unless somehow something is still in the cards out there!

 

[Stranger00120]

Congrats on your great accomplishment and perseverance @Stranger00120 . When I said that I want to be a physician, I truly mean an allopathic or osteopathic doctor. I am not wanting to be pigeonholed into a prototype by my program; such as "we develop awesome primary care providers" or "you need to serve in rural areas". While I understand that it comes with the territory at times, especially considering some of my stats, I do not wish to limit my potential if the schools lack interest in me.
I have no problem with any of the minutia of medical school, but I want to be autonomously developed rather than methodically manufactured. Some of my favorite physicians are rural-based primary care doctors. I just do not want to be limited in exploring other fields, or be in a situation where it is frowned upon to present a proposition that may conflict with the prevailing 'currents' at school. I am waiting to hear back from about a dozen DO and a few MD, but realistically not expecting to be invited, unless somehow something is still in the cards out there!

Thanks!

I really believe that DOs can go into most specialties (I'm not sure what I'm going into yet, but unlikely to be rural primary care). The DOs I've shadowed in my application process were a rural EM doc and an urban critical care physician in what would likely be considered a mid-tier city. I actually didn't shadow any primary care DOs. I also know that I'm not going for surgery (didn't care for being in the OR), so that isn't a consideration for me.