Dealing with negativity from other specialties

[double elle]

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Hi all
I've chosen to do surgery. No matter my reasons..the bottome line - I've chosen to do surgery. However, I continuously get hammered by attendings and other students (usually residents don't say a whole lot) regarding how bad my life will be, how my daughter and marraige will suffer, and how I'd better "think long and hard" about my decisions.

Now, I appreciate ANY insight from those that have already been there, but straight-up rudeness and all-out negativity really brings me down. I don't need to hear from every single person I run into that "surgery isn't very mommy-friendly"....I already know that. Sometimes it gets frustrating that these people assume I haven't thought about this from every angle possible and have tried to talk myself into doing something else with every rotation I do.

I don't think people are intending to be rude...I think most are honestly trying to tell me how hard it will be and trying to 'help'....but this decision is difficult enough. I am just so tired of people suggesting I choose an 'easier' specialty because I am female and a mother. The only people that have been really supportive are the surgery residents I've talked to, some of the FP residents, and the surgery attendings. Other attendings and students don't hesitate to say really nasty things to me. "oh, you'll get to know your daughter again in about 10 years" or "wow, I thought you cared for your kid more than that"...

Would I love to do one of the so-called 'easier' fields...sure...but I didn't fall in love with any of those. My first 2 choices were surgery and OB...hmm...not much difference between the two.

I don't really have a particular point here...I just became frustrated after last night. I sat beside a doc and his wife who were very nice....but tried to tell me how hard it will be - once again, making me doubt my decision. I can't keep doubting this....I've got to make a decision at some point.

And, isn't whether something is hard/doable/impossible all relative to what you've already done in the past?

To sum it up, I am a mother of a 19 month-old with a VERY supportive husband who is self-employeed and will not be a stay-at-home-dad. We are both incredibly busy - but have made it this far without family nearby.

I know there will be people reading this who feel the need to tell me I don't know how it is because I haven't been there yet. Yes, I realize that. I know it will be difficult, I know I will be tired, I know I will have some sacrifices to make. I guess I would just like people to stop and think before they slam somebody's career choices. This decision has been a tough one. I want to do right by my family - but I don't want to sell myself short either and wish for the next 30 years that I'd gone ahead and chose what I really wanted to do.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding how I can ignore some of the negativity, I would appreciate it.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Surgery isn't just not very mommy-friendly, it's not very anyone-friendly!


I tell any of the students who ask (be it a single young guy or a married female) that it's an incredibly difficult career, however, if it is an absolute passion, you will find some happiness even on the bad days.


That said, if I were a parent and wanted to surgery, I'd probably look at programs near my parents or other family members, then I'd remind myself that being a stay-at-home parent doesn't necessarily equate to a happy, well-adjusted child. I think some of the people that beat on working parents fail to see that. Your child doesn't have to be in your face 24 hours a day for you to provide emotional support, discipline, education, etc.


Good luck, and if it's what you really love, go for it and you'll probably be good at it. And no, that doesn't make you a bad person/parent.

 

[girlwithaknife]

I had the same problem when I was deciding to do surgery. All the negativity you get thrown at you is really discouraging, but it didn't do anything to change my mind. What you have to realize is that a lot of those people probably chose their fields based on the same criteria they're throwing at you, but you have your own priorities. It will be different for you, with a husband and kid to juggle with everything else, but you will not have been the first person to do it. When I got to questioning myself too much, I would just try to remember that I wasn't breaking any new ground, that all the hard times people were warning me about were things that other people had already gotten themselves through, many of them successfully.

Now, having almost finished my first year of surgery, I'm not sure I would actually recommend it to anyone else. But at the same time, I look at the people who went into other fields and I'm still pretty sure I made the right decision.

 

[Leukocyte]

Double elle, have you completed your Surgery Core? If so, you can judge how "appropriate" GS is yourself. Yes, GS is very very very demanding, no one will deny that. Anyone who says otherwise is flat out lying and misleading you. So, you have to make the decision yourself, and only after completing your Surgery core. And yes, do talk to the female surgical residents during your GS core and ask them for advice. Their advice is worth considering.

(I do not have to ask the female GS residents at my institution, I can tell by the way they look. 😉 - However, they do look much better than the guys 😀 )

G-Luck.

 

[BigBopper]

I don't get worked up over what other students or even attendings say. If I did I would have ended up in Primary Care, which would have been a huge mistake knowing what I know now.

Sounds like you thought it through and made up your mind. May as well develop a tough skin since you are going to need it during residency.

 

[Leukocyte]

...... If I did I would have ended up in Primary Care, which would have been a huge mistake knowing what I know now.....

I thought General Surgery is considered Primary Care. 😉

 

[debvz]

I don't need to hear from every single person I run into that "surgery isn't very mommy-friendly"....I already know that. Sometimes it gets frustrating that these people assume I haven't thought about this from every angle possible and have tried to talk myself into doing something else with every rotation I do.

Elle, it's even more annoying when you get the "mommy friendly" speech, when you've already made up your mind that children are nowhere in your future plans. I will be applying to surgery residency programs this fall, and even when I tell docs that I am happily single and have no intention of EVER having children, I'm still given the "you could change your mind" speech....Blech... Just because I'm a young (pushing 30) female doesn't mean that I haven't already heavily weighed my options and decided that, for me, career comes before family...

done venting now,
deb

 

[doc05]

I wish I could add some words of encouragement but all I can think of are the unhappy, miserable, pathetic, twice-divorced surgery attendings who are estranged from their now-grown children and were almost never around when their kids are growing up. best of luck (seriously).

 

[(nicedream)]

You should think about how bad your life will be and how your daughter and marriage will suffer - I would think long and hard about your decisions. Remember, you don't know how it is because you haven't been there yet. It's going to be difficult, and you're going to be very tired. There will be sacrifices to make.

 

[aliraja]

You should think about how bad your life will be and how your daughter and marriage will suffer - I would think long and hard about your decisions. Remember, you don't know how it is because you haven't been there yet. It's going to be difficult, and you're going to be very tired. There will be sacrifices to make.

🙂 Either you're being sarcastic (and quoting the OP's post) or you're just a ***** who never read it. In either case, your post is funny. 🙂

double elle, i'm sure it'll be hard but you know what? it's been done before and lots and lots of other people have gone through residency with other stressors (not that your family should be a stressor) and made it through okay. If you can juggle your priorities well you'll be able to make it. Not that it'll be easy, but I'm sure you're strong enough to pull it off.

 

[rubyness]

I've been having the same experience. I have come to dread the question about "so what do you want to go into"? Because I know what's best for me and I don't need the annoying worthless commentary from people asking the question.

I can't fathom why people ask this question and then proceed to say something rude about your choice of specialty. There are specialties that I would detest, but I don't make some idiotic comment to that effect. I congratulate folks on what they want to do because they know what's best for them, not me.

I always get an excited response from surgeons who ask me this question and I usually get a "why would you do that to yourself" answer from non-surgeons. (Hey it beats when I thought I wanted to do OB and I got a horrible reaction from everyone-- including the OBs!)

Some people are just inconsiderate and rude and make idiotic comments. Just ignore them because only you know what's best for you.

Oh, and the other thing I hate is the "well, you know I don't mean to be sexist, but you're a female so you should really think long and hard about that decision before you make it." Not sexist? Do they tell the boys that?

Hang in there and stick to your guns. Forget the nonsensical commentaries. 🙂

 

[aliraja]

Oh, and the other thing I hate is the "well, you know I don't mean to be sexist, but you're a female so you should really think long and hard about that decision before you make it." Not sexist? Do they tell the boys that?

We prefer to be called "men", thank you very much.

 

[rubyness]

We prefer to be called "men", thank you very much.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

If anyone has any suggestions regarding how I can ignore some of the negativity, I would appreciate it.

The way I see it, its just like when people try to talk you out of medical school. If you can be talked out of it, you should be.

 

[Neuron]

You should think about how bad your life will be and how your daughter and marriage will suffer - I would think long and hard about your decisions. Remember, you don't know how it is because you haven't been there yet.
__________________
Click here to visit the unofficial LECOM-Bradenton Class of 2008 webpage and here for the discussion forum

That has just got to be the most *****ically ironic thing I've read today.

 

[double elle]

The way I see it, its just like when people try to talk you out of medical school. If you can be talked out of it, you should be.

Wow - that's a really good point

 

[Harrie]

Remember, you don't know how it is because you haven't been there yet. It's going to be difficult, and you're going to be very tired. There will be sacrifices to make.

Does anyone else think that it is ironic that this quote comes from someone in the class of 2008...meaning, that he/she hasn't even STARTED MED SCHOOL YET!

 

[John DO]

Wow - that's a really good point

Congratulations, L. I know this has been a tough decision for you to make and I wish you luck. The good news is that you have had attendings telling you what to expect, even if their comments are not always welcome. This way you already know what to expect and can go into this with both eyes open. Do what you love, not what perfect strangers tell you to do . . .

See you in June!!

 

[southerndoc]

Elle, residency will be the tough part. After that, you can set your own hours, although you will have to search for a group that will allow you to work your own hours.

If you practice in a small town, you will be on call a lot, but generally won't be as busy (if it's a really rural area).

If you decide to pursue plastic surgery or another surgery subspecialty, you might find your lifestyle easier than general surgery. This isn't true of all subspecialties though, as things like cardiovascular surgery and trauma/critical care surgery can be very demanding of your time.

In the end, do what makes YOU happy, what YOU think you will be happy doing in ten-fifteen years from now, and NOT what makes your professors happy. Of course, your family is also in the decision process, too.

 

[dmaes]

Hey Double Elle,

If surgery is what you want to do then screw them all and do it. I know it's easier said than done, however. I think that your life is going to be largely what you make of it. A couple of friends of mine are a two physician family with 4 kids (2-10 years old). Mom is a pediatrician dad is a trauma/burn surgeon and both work in a university hospital. Both love what they do and my sense is that they are also very good at what they do. They, as you might imagine, are incredibly busy, dad in particular works 100+ hrs/week. They have a very good marriage and their kids are smart and well adjusted.

They unfortunately/fortunately do not have family nearby. During the day they make generous use of a nanny and housekeeper to get the kids form point A to B and keep the house in good order, wash the clothes etc... When they are home they spend time with the kids. They do karate as a family, take hikes, family vacations, or just hang out.

I think my friend would be happy to talk to you if you are intersted and I think that it would be worthwhile. Let me know and I will check with him and send you his email.

As for dealing with the naysayers, try focusing on the positives. It sounds like you have a great supportive husband. Try and focus on that and all the other good things in your life. When somebody says something negative it will probably be a general statement. Ask them to be specific. That often times helps them think about what they are saying and maybe realize that things aren't quite so bad. Agree with them wholeheartedly examine and reiterate what they say. It will then be much easier to point out the positive sides of there arguments. Have you ever read Dale Carnegies "How to win friends and influence people"? It is a quick read with many common sense strategies for dealing with all sorts of people. The suggestions made in the book have been effective. It is hard at first to implement the strategies but they get easier with practice.

Good luck! let me know if you are interested in talking to my friend.

Damon

 

[Mirror Form]

for me, career comes before family...

I wish you luck and hope your career is worth it. Most people don't make that decision though, and I doubt that's the way the OP feels if she already has a daughter.

 

[Mirror Form]

Other attendings and students don't hesitate to say really nasty things to me. "oh, you'll get to know your daughter again in about 10 years" or "wow, I thought you cared for your kid more than that"...

Those are nasty things to say. But part of the reason they are so mean is b/c they're based on truth. You're going to be sacrificing a lot more then single guys going into GS will. Single guys can just be single throughout residency and then marry young. Then they can still have time for a family as attendings if they decide. But girls have a biological clock that won't allow that. So if you're fine with only having one daughter and not being around for a signficant amount of her childhood, then go into GS. But it just seems to me like you're setting yourself up for extreme misery. Going through a GS residency is bad enough for somebody single. But doing it as a mother of a young child will be brutal. And when you finish your GS residency, it's pretty unlikely that you'll suddenly be able to get an easy job with few hours. Most GS's still still be work over 60 hours per week.

 

[double elle]

Wow - it's surprising that this thread popped up again after a month.

Sledge2005 - That was my issue - I WAS listening to everyone's advice because they are further in the career of medicine than me, so I figured they knew what they were talking about. However, with as tough of a decision as this was, the last thing I needed was people who barely knew me (or knew what kind of a parent I was) to voice their negative opinions. Partly, I brought this on myself by trying to get as much feedback regarding this as possible - but others offered up their opinions without being asked.

I equate it to when I am in the store and a total stranger tells me I shouldn't buy Nike shoes for my 18-month old because it's spoiling her. WTF??? Or, when the old lady in the restaurant told me I shouldn't be drinking caffeine when I was pregnant (it was rootbeer = caffeine free!) Sometimes people just feel the need to voice themselves when they really don't have the right to do so, because they don't know me at all.

It took me an entire year to make this decision. I didn't make it alone. Am I looking forward to it? No, not really. I know it's going to be difficult - I honestly know that. However.....does my pulse race everytime I hear the 'trauma call'? yeah... Do I get envious when I see the surgery residents running to the OR....yeah.....When I am on surgery service, and its 10 pm, I am not sitting there thinking about how I wish I was home. I get so engrossed in things that I don't even think about home.

Just two days ago, I was running with my daughter in the jogging stroller and we are right in front of the hospital when two ambulances and the chopper arrive. I see our chief surgery resident running from his truck into the ER. What am I thinking? I will tell you: "uh - I wonder if I can find someone to watch my girl for a while so I can go see what's going on." I just kept running, but the first thing I did the next morning was find out what had happened.

Fortunately for me, the program I want to attend is where I am currently doing my rotations. I also worked at this facility before going to medical school. So, I know the staff and I know my way around. I live about 8 minutes from the hospital. Although residency will be horrible, I am finding a little solace (sp?) in the fact that I won't have the added stress of moving, getting to know the staff and the docs, etc...well, hopefully - if I am accepted. Living so close = my husband can always bring my little girl to see me for lunch or dinner if I am stuck here on weekends and at night. My husband has an excellent job, so money is no stress.

I spent many months trying to find reasons not to do this. In the end, I quit listening to everyone and started looking for reasons why this may be just the perfect thing for me. I found that the more certain I became about my decision, the less negative comments I received. Please don't misunderstand - I value the opinions of others who have been there. It's just that some things really don't help the situation. Also, sometimes, I just get offended that these people seem to think that I haven't committed the time to think about this decision thoroughly.

I am an excellent mother and my little girl is crazy about me. My husband is supportive and wonderful (well, as wonderful as husbands can be - haha). My live has been no walk in the park - and medical school/rotations don't even come close to being the toughest things I've ever done in my life. I seem to be a glutten for punishment, I admit....but, the day-in-day-out stuff bores me to death. As for having one kid - we don't know. Right now, I can't imagine having two. The things I do with my daughter even when I have time off would be cut short if I had a second child, so it's more than just the career choice.

So....my decision is made - I just need to be accepted somewhere. I just hope everyone thinks about what they say before they say it. All of us are looking for advice and guidance....but you may unknowingly say something that really influences the way someone makes a decision. We all have our horror stories - or know of someone with a horror story. That doesn't mean that entire specialty should be thought of in that light.
Take care everyone.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Surgery isn't just not very mommy-friendly, it's not very anyone-friendly!

I think this statement is basically horsesh*t.

Hey, dude: How many hours per week do you think you're going to work as a surgery resident? 80. How many hours do you think you're going to work as a medicine resident? 80. OBGYN resident? 80.

This whole issue that surgery is somehow harder than any other residency is a crock. Dermatology is easy. Radiology is easy. EM is easy (hours). People say ENT is cush and that we get it easy. Guess how many hours I work per week. 80.

Residency is what you make of it. Any residency program is a sacrifice in terms of your social, marital, whatever life. Surgical residencies in the past were borderline abusive, but so were many medical residencies.

If you want to do surgery, then go do it.

 

[Blade28]

But 80 hours in one residency doesn't necessarily equal 80 hours in another. Other things come into play...amount of sleep, number of admissions, malignant attendings, etc.

Edit: Then again, I'm only a med student. I'm not going to argue with an ENT resident. 🙂

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Hey, dude: How many hours per week do you think you're going to work as a surgery resident? 80. How many hours do you think you're going to work as a medicine resident? 80. OBGYN resident? 80.

Since you've decided to shoot straight and be condescending towards one another...

Your statement IS outright horsesh*t!

I am a surgery resident and have been through training over the last year AFTER the supposed 80-hour workweek rule was made. Yes, there are SOME programs that are strictly adhering to 80 hours, I acknowledge that. But there are *many" residency programs and fellowships that do not even come close.

Have you taken q2 or q3 call for one month during residency? How about for the majority of your residency? If you have and you still feel the way your stated in your post, you must have a whole lot more energy to pursue outside activities than I. Q2 call, 24/7 beeper call, getting called in 4/7 nights a week, etc., is not extinct, and if you haven't encountered it during your residency, I hope you keep your current attitude should you encounter it once you enter practice.

Good luck, and I don't care if you want to continue flaming me because I do not have the time or desire to fight.

 

[scootad.]

foxxy, im with you on this one. Q2 call, that is inhumane. i have so much respect for you guys who do this, i could never handle it.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I am a surgery resident and have been through training over the last year AFTER the supposed 80-hour workweek rule was made. Yes, there are SOME programs that are strictly adhering to 80 hours, I acknowledge that. But there are *many" residency programs and fellowships that do not even come close.

Well, I was a surgical resident before and after the hours changes. No, the changes aren't inflexible. Not all residents work strictly 80 hours. The problem of adhering to the 80 hour work week is not unique to surgery, and to suggest that only surgical programs have this problem and that somehow surgical residents are tortured with undue labor more than residents in other specialties is a priori downright arrogance, typical of surgical residents and surgical professionals.

Have you taken q2 or q3 call for one month during residency? How about for the majority of your residency?

For the majority, yes. And since you were a recent intern, I would say that it's even more intense than your call, especially when I have to drive from hospital to hospital to cover call, cover trauma, repair traumatic facial injuries in the middle of the night, perform ER consults, and do "intern" level work. But, in fairness, my call is by no means unique. MANY people do this kind of call.

The issue that I have with fellow surgical residents is that "we" think that because we take q2-3 call (hey, ever heard of the MICU, PICU?), stand on our feet all day long (hey, who doesn't?), and feel constantly tired, we are somehow unique.

Sleep deprivation is a cummulative debt. If you are deprived of quality sleep, it does not matter whether you sat at desk for 30 hours straight or stood on your feet; the effects of chronic sleep deprivation become manifest in the same ways for most people. Don't confuse sore muscles with sleep deprivation. Maybe surgical residents corner the market on sore muscles and back aches, but don't suggest we're somehow more tired than others.

Residency is as much a test of endurance as it is of character (and at points, everybody, including myself, lack it distinctly). Some people have the endurance for long hours and frequent call; others don't. You'll find just as many well-rested people in surgery as you do medicine and just as many tired people in medicine as you do surgery.

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My thoughts on the whole subject are that 80 hours is an arbitrary hours cut off. So is 120. There's no data that states 120 hours makes a better resident than 80 or vice versa. Anyone who believes a resident has to work 120 hours per week is a pathetic dinosaur. Anyone who believes 80 hours is the right amount of time is being myopic. The right amount of time is the amount of time it takes to get the job done, see that the patient receives seamless continuity of care among providers, and learn the trade in an acceptable duration of years. What those numbers are, I don't know.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

But 80 hours in one residency doesn't necessarily equal 80 hours in another. Other things come into play...amount of sleep, number of admissions, malignant attendings, etc.

Edit: Then again, I'm only a med student. I'm not going to argue with an ENT resident. 🙂

You're entitled to argue all you want, man.

You're right -- 80 hours in one program doesn't equal 80 hours in another program. However, most residency programs are not spent sitting in day rooms, sipping coffee, going to get ice cream, taking breaks to go to the gym, or any other pleasure-filled activity. Most residents who are "on" for 80 hours are working for 80 hours. We all have good calls and bad calls. Many times when on call, I sleep 6 hours straight without so much as a peep from my beeper. On other nights, the night just doesn't end and my ears start ringing from the amount of incessant paging. Most residents work pretty f*cking hard while they're on and end up sleep deprived and constantly tired when they progress through residency.

Surgery is no less "friendly" to people than many other residency programs. There are good programs, middle programs, and bad programs when it comes to working. I'm being general here, but I think it's an acceptable level of generalization.

 

[Leukocyte]

Again, it is missleading to make a general statement like "surgery residents in all programs work 80 hours a week". Some programs out there, especially FMG infested programs in NYC work their residents like dogs, more than 100 hours/week. My experience is with General surgery and IM, i do not know about ENT though, especially b/c it is FMG free. To my knowledge, ENT is not General Surgery. IMHO, not too much "scut-work" going on in ENT programs.

Yes, I have been to 3 different community FMG infested General Surgery programs here in NYC, and I KNOW that the GS residents work more than 100 hours/week. My resident easily puts in 100 hours/week, but when he gets his pay-check it says that he worked 58 hours/week!!!!!!!!!!!

CAN HE COMlPAIN?

NO. He, like the other residents in the program, is an FMG. He thanks his lucky stars every single day that he was able to get a General Surgery spot.
If he complains, and his program gets shut-down, he and his fellow residents might loose the opportunity to become General Surgeons FOREVER. They might have to settle for a FMG infested FM or IM program!!!!!!

The bottom line is, unless you have been to every single GS program in the country, you cannot make the assumption that all GS residents work 80 hours/week. Some GS programs just do not give a ****, b/c they know that thier GS residents will never complain.

WELCOME TO THE FMG WORLD PEOPLE. 🙄

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
I chose surgery because I love it. I don't care about the personalities and the hours, the work is da--ed interesting and it has been great so far. Five hours of scut in medicine is like five months of surgery to me. I hated everything about medicine but I admire the folks who love it. I am sure that they feel the same about surgery.

I did my PGY-1 under the old system when you could be in the hospital for an unlimited number of hours and I still loved this specialty. It's all about where your interests lie. Either you are a surgeon or you are not. If not, you will be miserable and if you are, a cushy lifestyle is going to be miserable for you.

Thank goodness we are not all alike!
njbmd 😀

 

[Retinamark]

My resident easily puts in 100 hours/week, but when he gets his pay-check it says that he worked 58 hours/week!!!!!!!!!!!

This is so unfair. Surely this should be illegal. If this was happening in some Nike factory in the 3rd world, it would be a story on 60 minutes. Why can't the AMA stop this type of exploitation. It is so wrong.

 

[irlandesa]

elle,
unfortunately you haven't heard the end of criticism regarding your specialty choice. I think pretty much everyone (particulary Surgery, OB/Gyn, and IM) has to put up with people saying crappy things to them about their specialty, particularly women. The fact is there is NO easy residency program, especially if you're a parent. IM residents have the pleasure of q3 call on the MICU (sometimes for months at a time), FP interns can get completely disoriented from having to switch between so many different specialties in a short period of time, and OB/Gyn residents on night float (assuming a reasonably humane program) deal with 14+ hour shifts of anxious parents-to-be, complications of delivery, C-sections, and sometimes serious obstetric emergencies AND then have to present a whole bunch of cases at Morning Report under the intense scrutiny of hard-ass attendings and other residents. If it makes you feel any better, here are some of the charming comments I've received about Internal Medicine (I'm applying for IM this year, considering Primary Care and/or GI):
-"Even thinking about primary care IM is just stupid! why don't you go into FP?"
-"Internal Medicine is just mental masturbation, they don't really DO anything for people."
-"Wow, internists have to know a lot. Are you sure you want to do this?"
-"Don't count on ever getting a GI fellowship, it's just way too competitive."
-"wow, you actually are considering primary care?? haha, better marry a rich guy!" (ok, that one made me smile, and all of them do have some grain of truth)
-"good luck supporting your kids and ever hoping to live in a real house!"
But, none of these quotes will deter me from going into IM, and they shouldn't. Who cares what a few people who need to make themselves feel better by bashing other's choices think? And, for what it's worth, I can honestly say that I've loved working with every surgeon I met last year, all were amazingly caring and dedicated physicians and teachers w/great personalities (nearly every female surgeon attending I met had kids too!). best of luck to you this year.

 

[Lara]

-"good luck supporting your kids and ever hoping to live in a real house!"

Are the only "real" houses mansions? 🙄 I know you're in Boston, but still...

Q3 call on the MICU? Yikes. 🙁

 

[bobby6]

Not to be sexist but I don't know why in hell any woman would want to do general surgery. As a woman, you will suffer and sacrifice family, kids, and etc and end up becoming bitter old biaatches in the end. Family will NEVER come first. I was given the advice that as a physician, you can be three things, a doctor, spouse, and parent. You can only be great at two of the three at any given time and never three.

I'm a single male and I would never in my life would even consider doing general surgery. Too much personal sacrifice. If your a women and dead set on surgery, the surgical subspecialties are alot more accomodating like urology, ent, optho.

 

[chigirl]

" Some programs out there, especially FMG infested programs in NYC work their residents like dogs, more than 100 hours/week." - Leukocyte

Which ones? I will be applying to NYC surgery programs and I want to stay away from those crazy programs!
I have a dilemma similar to the original post. Maybe someone has some advice left over for another female wanting surgery and a life.

if you don't mind me asking...how do you feel about your choice of surgery at the end of the day? i am having major conflict of interest and my application is due in 25 days for a general surgery categorical position. I am in love with surgery. Its fascinating, it motivates me to learn for the hell of it, i can work all day and not notice, i love the complexity, the instant gratification, the personalities (really), the emergencies...etc. However, during each of the three months that i've done surgery clerkships/electives my life has fallen apart. I find it impossible to do anything besides sleep when i get home, i don't talk to my loved ones as much, and i'm cranky more often. on the other hand, the only other specialty that i find interesting is medicine (i know, its weird). its ok, the admission cases seem repetitive, its alot more passive, i am not really too motivated to read unless i have to, i'd rather do more with my hands ...however, i've noticed i'm happier outside of work, i talk more with people i care about, i talk to my patients more and have more compassion, and i have a life.

so my question is, is it always going to be a horrible lifestyle in surgery or is there light at the end of the tunnel? i would hate to take the easy route but i don't know if its worth it to be stressed for the rest of my life...5-7 years is do-able but a lifetime is a bit much. Any advice you can offer would be great. Thanks so much.

 

[aliraja]

Not to be sexist but

Oops. Too late.

 

[ucsfer]

chigirl, i'm with you - that's exactly how i feel about surgery. love it (even the personalities like you!) but have absolutely NO balance in life during those times.
Have you thought about OB? I guess you must have done that rotation, but it seems like a good balance of surgery/pressure-filled cases and then the easier months on gyn where the hours are better..

 

[delchrys]

first, man or woman is irrelevant, as both are equally responsible for raising their children, IF they have them. the only difference is the time needed to give birth to kids and recover from that. so people (the one dude a few posts up) who talk about "for a woman..." are full of **** and sexist as hell.

nbjmd (or whatever) posted "Either you are a surgeon or you are not. If not, you will be miserable and if you are, a cushy lifestyle is going to be miserable for you. " this KILLS ME. why is this the case, that either you are a "surgeon" or you are not, and that this entails working ridiculous hours that preclude an enjoyable life outside of surgery? it's a freakin cult, as far as i can tell, of men and women who make surgery out to be this "macho" thing to see how much they can take in any given week. why is this profession known for working so damned much? it isn't NECESSARY to work that much to learn or earn a decent income, so why? oh yeah, because "that's the way 'surgeons' are." what a crock. it destroys the realistic chance for most normal people who want to be surgeons to have a family life of any depth. it is a self-imposed mindset, that a 'surgeon' is defined, not just by what they know and what they do for a living (wow, masectomies and hernia repairs, what glory), but by how "dedicated" they are (read: how they are willing to work SOOO much and work SOOO hard and work such ridiculous shifts). NOTE: I AM NOT BASHING ANY INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE SURGEONS, BUT I AM DEFINITELY BASHING THE PREVAILING MINDSET THAT CONTROLS IN AT LEAST THE SURGERY PROGRAMS WITH WHICH I AM EVEN REMOTELY FAMILIAR.

here's a question to those of you who are in surgery residencies: why have none of you reported your program for violating the hour caps? YOU ARE JUST AS RESPONSIBLE FOR SURGERY BEING SUCH AN ANTI-LIFESTYLE PROFESSION AS ANYONE ELSE. that question was not rhetorical, either. i THINK i know the answer--because then you'd be proving yourself to not be a "true surgeon." this answer will merely strengthen the points i am trying to make in the preceding paragraph.

i just don't understand it. what happened to working shifts, like every other job that needs done 24/7? the only time a surgeon should get called back to the hospital is when they fail to close their patient meticulously and thus they are bleeding or have related complications. is it somehow "cool" to be tied to a pager? and i hope no one will come up with the classic "well, there's a shortage of surgeons" because that is directly caused by the medical profession self-limiting their population to ensure their freakin income. double the number of seats in med schools and four years later offer residencies that are 1 year longer while limiting the work week to 60 hours, with any programs that violate being CLOSED for 1 year, and you will see the shortage of surgeons cease to be an issue. the problem is that surgeons don't want to report their programs because for some inexplicable reason they don't want to work normal hours.

is it a superhero complex? like, superman can't take a day off because then he's culpable for all the crime that goes on that day?

i know you are thinking i'm a surgeon-hater who is just bashing in anger, but if you only knew. my friends who are in surgery are totally cool, but they are all, repeat ALL looking at gas as an escape now. of course, i'm sure that just means they aren't made of "the right stuff," and that they aren't "meant to be surgeons."

 

[delchrys]

and to the OP--screw everyone else. you already have a kid, which makes you worlds wiser than most folks. you seem to know what you want, so just do it. the poster who pointed out that it's like those people who tried to talk you out of med school was right on.

for all the issues i have with the way surgery programs seem to be set up, i respect surgeons and those who choose to take that path. you don't need any wishes of good luck from me, as i'm sure you're more than sufficiently talented and mentally/physically/and emotionally ready to grow in your chosen specialty.

🙂 👍

 

[tupac_don]

Hi all
I've chosen to do surgery. No matter my reasons..the bottome line - I've chosen to do surgery. However, I continuously get hammered by attendings and other students (usually residents don't say a whole lot) regarding how bad my life will be, how my daughter and marraige will suffer, and how I'd better "think long and hard" about my decisions.

Now, I appreciate ANY insight from those that have already been there, but straight-up rudeness and all-out negativity really brings me down. I don't need to hear from every single person I run into that "surgery isn't very mommy-friendly"....I already know that. Sometimes it gets frustrating that these people assume I haven't thought about this from every angle possible and have tried to talk myself into doing something else with every rotation I do.

I don't think people are intending to be rude...I think most are honestly trying to tell me how hard it will be and trying to 'help'....but this decision is difficult enough. I am just so tired of people suggesting I choose an 'easier' specialty because I am female and a mother. The only people that have been really supportive are the surgery residents I've talked to, some of the FP residents, and the surgery attendings. Other attendings and students don't hesitate to say really nasty things to me. "oh, you'll get to know your daughter again in about 10 years" or "wow, I thought you cared for your kid more than that"...

Would I love to do one of the so-called 'easier' fields...sure...but I didn't fall in love with any of those. My first 2 choices were surgery and OB...hmm...not much difference between the two.

I don't really have a particular point here...I just became frustrated after last night. I sat beside a doc and his wife who were very nice....but tried to tell me how hard it will be - once again, making me doubt my decision. I can't keep doubting this....I've got to make a decision at some point.

And, isn't whether something is hard/doable/impossible all relative to what you've already done in the past?

To sum it up, I am a mother of a 19 month-old with a VERY supportive husband who is self-employeed and will not be a stay-at-home-dad. We are both incredibly busy - but have made it this far without family nearby.

I know there will be people reading this who feel the need to tell me I don't know how it is because I haven't been there yet. Yes, I realize that. I know it will be difficult, I know I will be tired, I know I will have some sacrifices to make. I guess I would just like people to stop and think before they slam somebody's career choices. This decision has been a tough one. I want to do right by my family - but I don't want to sell myself short either and wish for the next 30 years that I'd gone ahead and chose what I really wanted to do.

If anyone has any suggestions regarding how I can ignore some of the negativity, I would appreciate it.

Surgery will be tough no doubt, but I say Do it. Go for it, and be persistent. Now you said one intersting thing that surgeons and surgery residents encouraged you, why, b/c they LOVE surgery and if you love sugery u will thrive in it. If you are a mother first, a surgeon second, u might wanna rethink surgery. But if surgery is ur life and you are all about surgery, by all means surgery is the place to go. best of luck.

 

[Audrey Hepburn]

I have to say something here -
1. It is true. You can't do it all. There are not enough hours in the day, not enough energy in your molecules to be a good surgeon AND a good mother AND a good wife AND have anything that someone could say resembled a life. Now, if you're going to have a nanny and a housekeeper, then yes, it is possible. But then it's not exactly YOU raising your kids. They'll still turn out OK in certain cases, just make sure you won't miss being there for major milestones in your kid's life. In fact, don't have any more kids at all. If you and your husband are not going to make them your #1 priority, it is not fair to bring them into this world. I am going into a specialty where I can easily find a part-time job. My husband to be is also a physician, and while I worked just as hard as he, made the exact same sacrifices in college, medical school, etc, I will happily take a job where I can be at home MOST of the time for my kids, for my house, for my husband. Someone has to be the center of the family. Which brings me to point #2......

2. No matter how "equal" a relationship, the woman will almost always do more of the child care, house work, etc. We carry 'em around for 9 months, and no one, not even daddy, can replace a mother's care. There are certain examples where a father will stay home and a mother willl work, but this is usually in cases where the mother has a strong masculine and the father has an unusually strong feminine. I think that most women that choose to go into surgery have a very strong masculine side, which is not a bad thing. But if both sides of a marriage want to work, and neither wants to raise the kids, then you shouldn't be having kids.

3. Women make great doctors. There are many cultures in the world where all the "healing" is done by the women in the community. This country needs women doctors, and women can make GREAT surgeons. But someone needs to be at home; kids require sacrifice, and the next sacrifice you should be making should be to choose a field where you can be there for your kid, ESPECIALLY if your husband won't be. It may not be your first choice, but it may be the right choice for your family.

I know people this reply will make people mad. But I stick by my guns.
You can't do it all.


-AH

 

[scootad.]

well said!

 

[Leukocyte]

Yes well said. I just wanted to add that even if people seem to be "doing it all", they cannot possibly be doing it all with equal perfection. Jack cannot possibly be THE BEST at all of his trades.

 

[delchrys]

hepburn, well said. i am one of the more feminine future dads, and my partner is one of the more masculine surgery moms-to-be.

 

[Blade28]

As a student who's also going into surgery, I applaud you for taking on this challenge and think your dedication will carry you through. Keep it up!