Dealing with the status-driven elitist politics of physicians

[messenger634]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

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[KLycos]

meh not all doctors are created equal. there is a culture of intellectual elitism, but it is just stronger with some and more subdued with other doctors.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Cool story Hansel.

 

[Hemichordate]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/17625279.jpg

 

[username456789]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

This tends to be par for the course in academic institutions, sadly. Once you get a little more exposure to physicians working in the community, you'll see there's often less of this attitude. That's not to say it doesn't exist there, but it's much less prominent.

 

[ensuii]

This tends to be par for the course in academic institutions, sadly. Once you get a little more exposure to physicians working in the community, you'll see there's often less of this attitude. That's not to say it doesn't exist there, but it's much less prominent.

Most of my rotations have been in community hospitals...it most likely varies by hospital but I don't think being away from academia frees you from what OP is talking about. It probably has more to do with the individual physician. I've been with a few modest, down-to-earth ones but they're few and far between. I have a feeling our generation will display less "academic elitism" than ones prior.

 

[ArcGurren]

This tends to be par for the course in academic institutions, sadly. Once you get a little more exposure to physicians working in the community, you'll see there's often less of this attitude. That's not to say it doesn't exist there, but it's much less prominent.

No, I've seen it in academic and community hospitals alike, and in the case of surgery I actually saw it even more so in a community hospital. I think it's a generational thing. It is important I think to be a "boss" to some extent but you should also be down to earth, modest, and humble about your profession. That goes for everything - if it were the case across the board (politicians, CEOs, engineers, blue collar careers, whatever), the world would be a politer and nicer place.

 

[tfc]

The only common factor is that the people acting this way have a giant chip on their shoulder and are insecure.

 

[Abider]

Most of today's power structure was trained while sporting stashes Afros bell-bottoms sideburns and such. So I wonder about our generation being destined to be a nicer bunch by some vague virtue of our anti-hierarchical sensibilities.

It's a nice hope to have--doctors being less malignant in culture--but I don't see much culture change since women's movement and other projects made their presence known by the 80's or so according to my culture clock.

 

[Morsetlis]

From what I've seen on SDN? El oh el.

Every generation strives to be better than the one before it, and then a war breaks out and you lose all progress. The technology and the weapons advance, but humanity is still very much in its infancy.

 

[surftheiop]

The world has changed a lot since current attendings grew up and trained. It used to by that physicians were privileged to a ton of knowledge that would be essentially unknowable to the lay public unless they were willing to go to a university library and start searching through medical textbooks and journals.

But now anybody in the world can head to google and find almost the same information that medical professionals have at their disposal. Obviously they probably have no idea what it actually means or how to interpret it, but the information is available to them. Physicians are no longer necessarily needed as the primary "source" of information and because of this I think we need to focus more on being "interpreters" of information. (Which is likely a much more difficult task, its a lot harder to explain to a patient why you think study X is more relevant than study Y, than it is to just tell them what to do)

 

[gravitywave]

The world has changed a lot since current attendings grew up and trained. It used to by that physicians were privileged to a ton of knowledge that would be essentially unknowable to the lay public unless they were willing to go to a university library and start searching through medical textbooks and journals.

But now anybody in the world can head to google and find almost the same information that medical professionals have at their disposal. Obviously they probably have no idea what it actually means or how to interpret it, but the information is available to them. Physicians are no longer necessarily needed as the primary "source" of information and because of this I think we need to focus more on being "interpreters" of information. (Which is likely a much more difficult task, its a lot harder to explain to a patient why you think study X is more relevant than study Y, than it is to just tell them what to do)

eh, this hasn't driven changes in the profession nearly to the extent that Gen X medical professionals have, demanding lifestyle friendly changes. The expectations are no longer that you work until you drop and sacrifice your personality and personal relationships in the process. Also, the development of medicine as big business has resulted in a loss of autonomy across the board. A full-on god complex really demands almost total detachment from reality at this point.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

You should print this quote, rent a safety deposit box and store it for 15 yrs then read it back to yourself.
I promise you will either not believe how far you've fallen and become the exact thing you once hated or you wont believe you actually wrote that.

 

[neusu]

Look, I can't help it if every other service is full of ***** mouth breathing Neanderthals that should have been held back in high school let alone granted an MD. I am doing the world a favor letting those simple minded, patient meddling pricks just how wrong they are and what real doctors do. Watch and learn son, and keep quiet or you'll match so far West of the Hudson River it couldn't even be called fly-over country because it's too remote to have a flight-path pass it over.

 

[SteinUmStein]

Look, I can't help it if every other service is full of ***** mouth breathing Neanderthals that should have been held back in high school let alone granted an MD. I am doing the world a favor letting those simple minded, patient meddling pricks just how wrong they are and what real doctors do. Watch and learn son, and keep quiet or you’ll match so far West of the Hudson River it couldn’t even be called fly-over country because it’s too remote to have a flight-path pass it over.

A++ would read again, the Times New Roman sealed the deal.

 

[D elegans]

Look, I can't help it if every other service is full of ***** mouth breathing Neanderthals that should have been held back in high school let alone granted an MD. I am doing the world a favor letting those simple minded, patient meddling pricks just how wrong they are and what real doctors do. Watch and learn son, and keep quiet or you’ll match so far West of the Hudson River it couldn’t even be called fly-over country because it’s too remote to have a flight-path pass it over.

 

[HondoCrouch]

What makes you think these issues are unique to medicine?

You've just described people. Some of them suck. Welcome to the real world.

 

[SteinUmStein]

What makes you think these issues are unique to medicine?

You've just described people. Some of them suck. Welcome to the real world.

👍 This reminds me of the 3 basic rules of food. There should be a compiled list of extremely basic and essential-to-learn facts of life that are handed to every child upon starting school, and again after graduation so they can see how true they really are.

These are people. Some of them suck. Welcome to the real world.

Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.

 

[meister]

I really really hate it when people within a certain specialty act as if everyone else outside the field should know the subtleties of their little area. It is so grating, particularly if you are trying to care for your patient as the primary team and are dealing with arrogant consultants. In my experience a lot of this disappears when you aren't dealing with overworked residents and are dealing with private physicians who really do appreciate you giving them business.

 

[JackShephard MD]

Look, I can't help it if every other service is full of ***** mouth breathing Neanderthals that should have been held back in high school let alone granted an MD. I am doing the world a favor letting those simple minded, patient meddling pricks just how wrong they are and what real doctors do. Watch and learn son, and keep quiet or you’ll match so far West of the Hudson River it couldn’t even be called fly-over country because it’s too remote to have a flight-path pass it over.

lol

 

[messenger634]

What makes you think these issues are unique to medicine?

You've just described people. Some of them suck. Welcome to the real world.

I spent 10 years in the 'real world' before entering this little bubble. Its a bubble that many doctors have never left - and when you combine it with the academic environment, its a sandbox.

In the real world, I did several jobs, in a number of locations and business - so much so that my classmates often joke how I've pretty much done everything. I worked in publishing, I taught abroad, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, for a start-up, for an engineering firm, and others. I worked in each for at least 6 months, if not years. I actually did hard labor for 2 years. There I met people with more common sense and worldly knowledge than most of my medical school classmates. And most of my coworkers there were younger than my medical school classmates.

And I also spent some of time as a patient, actually.

Doctors work hard, and they are well paid. The best of them are outstanding men and woman who deserve the praise that they specifically receive. But there are few of them. Now in my 30's, I believe that the medical profession has more arrogant, childish, insecure adults than any other environment I have ever studied or worked in.

 

[Vigil]

Consider the selection process for most MD (and DO to lesser extent) in the U.S. and review the traits those accepted. They're not exactly filtering based on who is the best people person, who wants to help people the most, or the most effective leader. Ultimately, at the end of the day they want the people with brain power and the mental fortitude to conquer med school and those people are going to tell Adcoms exactly what they want to hear to get in.

These are for a good part people who have prepped since Day 0 of undergraduate to become a doctor (perhaps earlier), which in turn may lack exposure to a true professional enviroment or work place and not understand the social norms. Many intelligent or high functioning individuals seem to retain Type A personalities. Combine that with this perpetual state of competition and it's easy to see why a certain percent of the professional population can come off as egotistical jerks: that's the population that makes it through the selection. Heck, if I was on the outside looking in, those qualities of MDs you described would seem awfully close to being borderline aspie or anal retentive.

Or perhaps, they just get that MD and get so caught up in the fact, end up thinking they're the shiznit and let it go to their head.

 

[messenger634]

Consider the selection process for most MD (and DO to lesser extent) in the U.S. and review the traits those accepted. They're not exactly filtering based on who is the best people person, who wants to help people the most, or the most effective leader. Ultimately, at the end of the day they want the people with brain power and the mental fortitude to conquer med school and those people are going to tell Adcoms exactly what they want to hear to get in.

These are for a good part people who have prepped since Day 0 of undergraduate to become a doctor (perhaps earlier), which in turn may lack exposure to a true professional enviroment or work place and not understand the social norms. Many intelligent or high functioning individuals seem to retain Type A personalities. Combine that with this perpetual state of competition and it's easy to see why a certain percent of the professional population can come off as egotistical jerks: that's the population that makes it through the selection. Heck, if I was on the outside looking in, those qualities of MDs you described would seem awfully close to being borderline aspie or anal retentive.

Or perhaps, they just get that MD and get so caught up in the fact, end up thinking they're the shiznit and let it go to their head.

I agree. Its a shame that it turns out like that. In general I enjoy working with nurses and PA's more. I think your statements summarize it well - and while that type of process and the product it puts out is well known, when its compared to people of similar age and even similar lifestyle its amazing how underdeveloped and out of touch medical school graduates can be.

 

[PTPoeny]

I spent 10 years in the 'real world' before entering this little bubble. Its a bubble that many doctors have never left - and when you combine it with the academic environment, its a sandbox.

In the real world, I did several jobs, in a number of locations and business - so much so that my classmates often joke how I've pretty much done everything. I worked in publishing, I taught abroad, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, for a start-up, for an engineering firm, and others. I worked in each for at least 6 months, if not years. I actually did hard labor for 2 years. There I met people with more common sense and worldly knowledge than most of my medical school classmates. And most of my coworkers there were younger than my medical school classmates.

And I also spent some of time as a patient, actually.

Doctors work hard, and they are well paid. The best of them are outstanding men and woman who deserve the praise that they specifically receive. But there are few of them. Now in my 30's, I believe that the medical profession has more arrogant, childish, insecure adults than any other environment I have ever studied or worked in.

Have you spent any time in academia? (Honestly curious)

I saw so much more of this during my PhD than I have during med school. Maybe I've been lucky so far in my medical training and unlucky in my PhD training but as much as I love research and can deal with the whole grant/paper thing, I really don't ever want to be in an environment like that again.

 

[FunnyCurrent]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

Work really hard, become one, and then you can be the douchebag

 

[wholeheartedly]

Have you spent any time in academia? (Honestly curious)

I saw so much more of this during my PhD than I have during med school. Maybe I've been lucky so far in my medical training and unlucky in my PhD training but as much as I love research and can deal with the whole grant/paper thing, I really don't ever want to be in an environment like that again.

This definitely. Although I think it's disproportionally high in both academics and in medicine compared to most other fields. It's been very department specific in my experience as well. My basic science dept was just terrible, some of the neighboring ones were't so bad. Its awkward and weird watching adults throw temper tantrums and throw things because they didn't get their way. I mean really?! I can see kicking a door or punching a pillow in private if you spent all night trying to save a patient and they crashed/died anyway, but because some other PI questioned your methods or something?

My epi program seems to be a lot better, but I think it's because it draws from such a broad background and a lot of people didn't come straight in from undergrad. You also work with so many different people from such a wide variety of fields it would be hard to function effectively with an elitist mindset.

This is the one thing I'm most dreading about this field.

 

[Bane]

Now finishing 3rd year, I can't believe how childish some doctors can behave. Its also so apparent because how normal and accepting others are. The pervasive, almost religious culture of shaping and molding students, and the lashing out Ive seen and expereinced from these narcissists whenever they feel threatened in any way, has just completely turned me away from this field.

If there was one thing I would like more doctors to have, its modesty. Modesty that the world doesn't revolve around them, their title, their department, their hospital, their school, their medical region, their profession. Modesty that sometimes a patient who has done their homework knows more about what they need and what they don't. Modesty that they can be wrong and it doesn't need to be covered up and made silly excuses for any time that happens. Modesty that just maybe, just maybe, this department or that made a decision on this patient or that, that doesn't need to be scoffed at, head-shaken at, or so openly questioned, just to demonstrate how smart they are.

Medical school admissions don't select for modesty.

I spent 10 years in the 'real world' before entering this little bubble. Its a bubble that many doctors have never left - and when you combine it with the academic environment, its a sandbox.

In the real world, I did several jobs, in a number of locations and business - so much so that my classmates often joke how I've pretty much done everything. I worked in publishing, I taught abroad, I worked in the pharmaceutical industry, for a start-up, for an engineering firm, and others. I worked in each for at least 6 months, if not years. I actually did hard labor for 2 years. There I met people with more common sense and worldly knowledge than most of my medical school classmates. And most of my coworkers there were younger than my medical school classmates.

And I also spent some of time as a patient, actually.

Doctors work hard, and they are well paid. The best of them are outstanding men and woman who deserve the praise that they specifically receive. But there are few of them. Now in my 30's, I believe that the medical profession has more arrogant, childish, insecure adults than any other environment I have ever studied or worked in.

I don't disagree. We can all see its genesis in medical school.