Dearth of MD/MS Students On This Forum?

[vc7777]

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Hey guys!

I usually hang out in the Nontraditional forum or the School Specific forum. Just started lurking a few weeks ago here. Am I missing the threads/discussions re: MD/MS candidates and students?

I see the occasional mention of such programs in passing to prospective students, and the talk about the MS-prior-to-medical-school career path - but no real in-depth discussions going on about these dual degree programs or students?

A little about myself: I am an older returning student who was active in industry doing medical device engineering for about a dozen years. The MD/MS route is much more appealing to my background for several reasons including my career objectives (foresee myself doing translational or clinical research) and my 'advanced age' and family obligations (wife + 3 kids).

If someone could point me in the right direction on the forum, I seem to be lost! 😳

 

[Shifty B]

Well, do you have specific questions that you want to address about these programs?

I think you see less about it because MD/MS students get much less of the graduate student angst and frustration which is commonly the driving force on these topics.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Do people actually put M.S., M.D. after their names?

 

[CCLCMer]

I usually hang out in the Nontraditional forum or the School Specific forum. Just started lurking a few weeks ago here. Am I missing the threads/discussions re: MD/MS candidates and students?

Hi vc7777!

No, you're in the right place. There just aren't as many of us on SDN, probably in part because there aren't nearly as many MD/MS programs compared to MD/PhD. But besides us, RxnMan is doing five years (one year research, though I'm not sure if he got an MS), and I'm sure there are others I've forgotten about (sorry in advance). Maybe this thread will bring them out of lurking. 🙂

Anyway, no one will stop you (us?) from having a discussion about MD/MS programs if you want to. Or technically, in our case, five year research-MD, because not everyone at CCLCM gets an MS.

I think you see less about it because MD/MS students get much less of the graduate student angst and frustration which is commonly the driving force on these topics.

I'm not sure if that's true. The angst may be from a different source, but there is still angst.

Do people actually put M.S., M.D. after their names?

I usually see it as MD, MS, but yes, they do. Why wouldn't they? 😕

 

[URHere]

I think one big reason for the lack of MD/MS threads or a specific forum is that several schools allow the MD/MS combination, but do not have a specific program for it (hence few threads on MD/MS admissions, etc). For example, my undergraduate school had several MD/MS students, but most if not all of them applied for the research year after starting medical school. There was no specific coursework during the medical school years, and it wasn't really considered a separate program.

Obviously, there are some schools that make the MD/MS its own program, but there are a limited number of them.

 

[StIGMA]

Hi vc7777!
I usually see it as MD, MS, but yes, they do. Why wouldn't they? 😕

Some people do, some people don't. Some people do sometimes and not at other times. For instance, in the hospital MD/PhDs frequently just have MD on their coat. Additionally, some people would argue that only the doctoral degree is relevant to add after your name and not the masters, because only one of those degrees is terminal (ie: should you put masters after your name if you got it before the MD or concurrently?). The same reasoning applies for bachelor's degrees. MPH is frequently added because it is a separate skillset, while MS is not necessarily different (a course-based MS program is not much different than a BS or medical school science, while a research MS may take 3 years and be very significant). To repeat, the training for an MS is not standardized and ranges from no research experience to significant research training, but the letters themselves do not tell you this information. So maybe it is better left on the CV. For what it's worth, I don't think it matters, and you should do what you want.

 

[RxnMan]

...I see the occasional mention of such programs in passing to prospective students, and the talk about the MS-prior-to-medical-school career path - but no real in-depth discussions going on about these dual degree programs or students?...

There are a few of us (I did my MS before entering med school). What questions did you have?

BTW, there are a number of great students from your school in my program.

...For instance, in the hospital MD/PhDs frequently just have MD on their coat...

I've seen all sorts of combinations of letters representing all sorts of CVs. The MD always gets put on because the person is a resident or attending, but in the hiring process a detail like an additional degree is easily lost.

...To repeat, the training for an MS is not standardized and ranges from no research experience to significant research training, but the letters themselves do not tell you this information...

To be honest, PhDs aren't standardized either. The quality of grad degree programs vary widely. That's why they're often ignored in the med school application process.

 

[vc7777]

Thanks everybody for your responses.

Well, do you have specific questions that you want to address about these programs?

There are a few of us (I did my MS before entering med school). What questions did you have?

Well, for starters I am interested in hearing about individual experiences beyond school with said training. If it isn't obvious by now, I am committed to Cleveland Clinic already, and do not intend on pursuing a PhD. So what interests me personally are not issues about "MD/MS v. MD/PhD" [Although I think a healthy discussion of this wouldn't hurt the forum either - see below]

Issues that may be unique to MD/MS kiddies include competing for post-graduate funding of research and residency/fellowship concerns *without the PhD degree* (like continuation of research during PGY years - can they apply for 'physician-scientist' residency tracks?).

When you consider that a high portion of NIH research monies are awarded to MD/PhDs, it implies MD/MSs have a disadvantage. How much of this is due to lack of competitiveness, self selection, or cultural bias at the NIH and other funding sources?

To quote the NIH:​

MD/PhD-trained investigators have been extremely successful in biomedical research compared with M.D.-trained peers. Although they make up only 3% of medical school graduates, MD/PhD-trained investigators hold 30% of NIH grant funding given to physician-researchers. MD/PhD's have a slight advantage in obtaining research grants over Ph.D.-trained peers​

In short: a civil discussion regarding whether MD/MSs stand a chance 'out there' would be nice? 🙂

Also,

For the pre-med audience: I think there is room for more discussion about this route/career path as a compromise for students who may be older, may be interested in a more clinically-focused career/lifestyle, or many be interested in a particular/unusual masters program?

Do people actually put M.S., M.D. after their names?

...the training for an MS is not standardized...you should do what you want.

I usually see it as MD, MS, but yes, they do. Why wouldn't they? 😕

😕 For the record, I really don't care. My use of the "MD/MS" moniker was simply to be clear in my posts about the training pathways I am talking about.

I think one big reason for the lack of MD/MS threads or a specific forum is that several schools allow the MD/MS combination, but do not have a specific program for it (hence few threads on MD/MS admissions, etc). For example, my undergraduate school had several MD/MS students, but most if not all of them applied for the research year after starting medical school. There was no specific coursework during the medical school years, and it wasn't really considered a separate program.

Obviously, there are some schools that make the MD/MS its own program, but there are a limited number of them.

Wonderful points...a discussion for applicants regrading the pros and cons of a formal program vs. informal program vs. BS->MS->MD would have been helpful for me this time last year, I suppose.

Anyway, no one will stop you (us?) from having a discussion about MD/MS programs if you want to. Or technically, in our case, five year research-MD, because not everyone at CCLCM gets an MS.

Well, you haven't been able to stop me from talking in the past...I doubt you would be able to now!

I think you see less about it because MD/MS students get much less of the graduate student angst and frustration which is commonly the driving force on these topics.

I'm not sure if that's true. The angst may be from a different source, but there is still angst.

I'd have to agree with CCLCMer [/ANGST]

 

[RxnMan]

...Well, for starters I am interested in hearing about individual experiences beyond school with said training...

I'll have to get back to you on that.

...Issues that may be unique to MD/MS kiddies include competing for post-graduate funding of research...

This is a contentious issue. There is the JAMA 2007 paper talking about MDs vs MD/PhDs vs PhDs and R01 grant app success. IIR, there they described a difference of ~4% between MDs and MD/PhDs (PhDs were in between, but applied to many more grants). But we're talking the difference between 28% and 32%. That's not much of a real effect after spending an additional 4-5 years of your life. Then again, there's outcomes showing that year-out programs like HHMI may have the same effect as doing a MD/PhD (not MSTP, link here).

(I know this is not MD/MS data, but it's what we have.)

...residency/fellowship concerns *without the PhD degree* (like continuation of research during PGY years - can they apply for 'physician-scientist' residency tracks?)...

I've been told by faculty that more degrees are better when applying to residencies, but that isn't borne out in the data I've collected (see my sig). For comparison, the PhD has some effect when applying to competitive residencies in previous years (as shown by Charting outcome 2007) but not even that recently (the 2009 ed.).

Anyone can apply for a research residency. Getting one is probably a different matter. Most websites I've looked at ask for applicants to have a PhD or significant research experience. From what you've posted, you'd qualify.

...How much of this is due to lack of competitiveness, self selection, or cultural bias at the NIH and other funding sources?..

There is definitely a cultural bias here towards basic science and PhD-type work. That is another complex issue, but I believe there is some change towards clinical and translational research - the CTSA's are an example.

With respect to a lack of competitiveness, I think there's something there, but it's an unfair comparison. A MD fresh from residency generally doesn't have any research experience. A MD/PhD fresh from residency does, but that's from the 4-5 years of PhD work they did. Both will likely have to do a fellowship to kick off independent research careers - the PhD likely a shorter time in post-doc, but the MD will be 4-5 years younger (during which time they can get basically the same amount of research training). There's a whole series of awards to facilitate this process - K's, R99's etc.

 

[CCLCMer]

This is a contentious issue. There is the JAMA 2007 paper talking about MDs vs MD/PhDs vs PhDs and R01 grant app success. IIR, there they described a difference of ~4% between MDs and MD/PhDs (PhDs were in between, but applied to many more grants). But we're talking the difference between 28% and 32%. That's not much of a real effect after spending an additional 4-5 years of your life. Then again, there's outcomes showing that year-out programs like HHMI may have the same effect as doing a MD/PhD (not MSTP, link here).

(I know this is not MD/MS data, but it's what we have.)

Thank you so much for posting this link. I had told vc7777 about that study's existence, but couldn't remember where to find it.

With respect to a lack of competitiveness, I think there's something there, but it's an unfair comparison. A MD fresh from residency generally doesn't have any research experience. A MD/PhD fresh from residency does, but that's from the 4-5 years of PhD work they did. Both will likely have to do a fellowship to kick off independent research careers - the PhD likely a shorter time in post-doc, but the MD will be 4-5 years younger (during which time they can get basically the same amount of research training). There's a whole series of awards to facilitate this process - K's, R99's etc.

I agree with this, and as you pointed out, the research track residency requirements that I have seen stipulate PhD or equivalent experience as the requirement. So it's the experience they're looking for, NOT specifically the degree.

BTW, vc7777, which MS are you planning to do? I don't think you ever told me.

 

[RxnMan]

Thank you so much for posting this link. I had told vc7777 about that study's existence, but couldn't remember where to find it...

My fellowship director told me that they're about to do the same sort of analysis on my program's alumni. He tells me that we're too early for R01 results (I'm the 13th class ), but the K award data looks great (>75%).

 

[CCLCMer]

My fellowship director told me that they're about to do the same sort of analysis on my program's alumni. He tells me that we're too early for R01 results (I'm the 13th class ), but the K award data looks great (>75%).

Haha, the CCLCM administration plans to track how many of us end up having research careers also. But since we're graduating our second class next week (I'm in the third class), it will be a while until we even have some K award data. 😛

 

[vc7777]

I'll have to get back to you on that.

🙂 I didn't want to assume, but are your research interests in-line with your masters? Just because someone has a masters before medical school doesn't mean they intend to pursue a research path at all, let alone in a related area, right?

This is a contentious issue....(I know this is not MD/MS data, but it's what we have.)

Right...I just asked mainly to start a conversation. I weighs heavily on me, as part of my angst...😀

Anyone can apply for a research residency. Getting one is probably a different matter. Most websites I've looked at ask for applicants to have a PhD or significant research experience. From what you've posted, you'd qualify.

Right, the 'getting them' is the problem!

My research is a different beast from academic. And I am not sure if I will be continuing research in a similar vein or not during med school. Coupling those two facts together, and I am not sure how competitive I will be for such residency programs.

Also, I am sure it varies by specialty and program, but does anyone have a sense for how competitive these programs are versus 'non-research tracks'? For example, I understand some institutions have both research and non-reserch tracks in the same program - how do they compare?

There is definitely a cultural bias here towards basic science and PhD-type work. That is another complex issue, but I believe there is some change towards clinical and translational research - the CTSA's are an example.

By 'here' you mean this forum or the greater community? Or both?

With respect to a lack of competitiveness, I think there's something there, but it's an unfair comparison. A MD fresh from residency generally doesn't have any research experience. A MD/PhD fresh from residency does, but that's from the 4-5 years of PhD work they did. Both will likely have to do a fellowship to kick off independent research careers - the PhD likely a shorter time in post-doc, but the MD will be 4-5 years younger (during which time they can get basically the same amount of research training). There's a whole series of awards to facilitate this process - K's, R99's etc.

Good point on the time vs. experience tradeoff. In a sense, both paths are gambles in that regard. On banks on experience, the other on future research opportunities becoming available.

Thank you so much for posting this link. I had told vc7777 about that study's existence, but couldn't remember where to find it.

😀 Well, I know who to ask next time!

I agree with this, and as you pointed out, the research track residency requirements that I have seen stipulate PhD or equivalent experience as the requirement. So it's the experience they're looking for, NOT specifically the degree.

👍This is very good to point out to students deciding between both pathways.

BTW, vc7777, which MS are you planning to do? I don't think you ever told me.

Well, as I've alluded to above and in previous discussions we have had, I am not sure if I will 'walk away' from my 10+ years of electronics engineering. It isn't biomedical, which seems to be all the rage nowadays with these young kids...When I was in college, there WAS no biomedical undergrad program, just a graduate program. I am hardcore electronics and medical device kind of guy.

However, the MS in engineering sounds like a difficult pathway and I am not sure how much I will get out of it. Add to that the fact that I haven't been in a 'real' engineering class in over twelve years. I really need to evaluate the program before deciding.

I am looking into the Clinic Research program as well.

Too many choices, I suppose?

I guess I will depend on my perference for future residency.

I love, love, love the ER. Emergency Medicine has a special place in my heart. I have spent some time in a research-focused ED. I liked it there a lot. But my research background and experiences are not relevant to the type of research they perform - I don't see a need for electronics research in the ED beyond niche and coveted positions here and there? 🙁 I guess I have a hard time seeing my background being useful there. And it's hard to leave behind all my years of work.

To complicate things: I'm not opposed to other specialties, including what are considered more 'electrically-oriented'. [Although I hesitate to even say this: It's like engineering or science undergrads going into law school thinking they will become patent lawyers and 'combine' their two degrees only to realize patent law uses almost none of their previous training]

In short: I don't know. 😕

Angst setting in again...

 

[RxnMan]

🙂 I didn't want to assume, but are your research interests in-line with your masters? Just because someone has a masters before medical school doesn't mean they intend to pursue a research path at all, let alone in a related area, right?...

Eh. I did my MS intending to use it in my career - I thought of it as an investment in the future. I am doing work now that happens to be related to my MS, but I've done lots of work in many fields, most of them unrelated. The barriers to entry for a interested student is amazingly low.

...My research is a different beast from academic. And I am not sure if I will be continuing research in a similar vein or not during med school. Coupling those two facts together, and I am not sure how competitive I will be for such residency programs...

Are you published? Do you have any patents? Those would go a long way to establishing academic cred, even though it was for industry.

...Also, I am sure it varies by specialty and program, but does anyone have a sense for how competitive these programs are versus 'non-research tracks'? For example, I understand some institutions have both research and non-reserch tracks in the same program - how do they compare?...

It depends on the program and specialty. Some will give you the full ABIM research track experience, others will give you a year of protected time, others will give you an extra month or so during residency. It all depends on the program, the funding available, and how flexible the scheduling is. They are generally another step in applications (you'd apply for the ABIM as an intern) and thus another step up in competitiveness.

All are designed such that you will come out of the residency as a clinically competent attending.

...By 'here' you mean this forum or the greater community? Or both?..

I meant at the NIH.

...Well, as I've alluded to above and in previous discussions we have had, I am not sure if I will 'walk away' from my 10+ years of electronics engineering. It isn't biomedical, which seems to be all the rage nowadays with these young kids...When I was in college, there WAS no biomedical undergrad program, just a graduate program. I am hardcore electronics and medical device kind of guy...

There will always be a place for medical devices. I for one would love a wireless combined phone/pager/email/EMR portal/drug and medical reference, for example. Given that EMRs especially seem to be getting a boost, finding ways to integrate that data between patients and providers will be a great market for innovators. But I can think of a dozen different places where that experience would serve you if you wanted to apply that electronics experience to clinical problems.

...However, the MS in engineering sounds like a difficult pathway and I am not sure how much I will get out of it. Add to that the fact that I haven't been in a 'real' engineering class in over twelve years. I really need to evaluate the program before deciding...

You should consider where you want to go. A year is valuable to you, and it should be a place where you develop skills, contacts, and perspectives that will help you get to where you want to go. I have a Chem E degree, and unless I was doing a specific thesis project with a residency in mind - prosthesis design and I wanted to go into PM&R, or ORIF design and targeting ortho - I'd have a hard time justifying a masters in engineering at this stage of the game.

...I don't see a need for electronics research in the ED beyond niche and coveted positions here and there? 🙁 I guess I have a hard time seeing my background being useful there. And it's hard to leave behind all my years of work...

See my example above. With a decade of experience, you could make your own niche where ever you went.

...To complicate things: I'm not opposed to other specialties...

It's not a complication. Do what you want. You owe it yourself to explore all of the different fields. The house of medicine is large, and there's room for everyone.

...including what are considered more 'electrically-oriented'. [Although I hesitate to even say this: It's like engineering or science undergrads going into law school thinking they will become patent lawyers and 'combine' their two degrees only to realize patent law uses almost none of their previous training]...

Look into ortho, PM&R, and rads.

 

[CCLCMer]

I love, love, love the ER. Emergency Medicine has a special place in my heart. I have spent some time in a research-focused ED. I liked it there a lot. But my research background and experiences are not relevant to the type of research they perform - I don't see a need for electronics research in the ED beyond niche and coveted positions here and there? 🙁 I guess I have a hard time seeing my background being useful there. And it's hard to leave behind all my years of work.

I don't think you can rule out there being a niche for you in EM with an electrical engineering degree. I think I told you about this guy, who is simply amazing. First of all, he has more degrees than any other five people you can think of put together. He's an anesthesiologist, and he has a PhD in some kind of engineering, and he also has an education MS (plus a bunch of other degrees that he got just for fun). But he figured out a way to combine all of his training: he designs simulations to help train the anesthesiology residents. How cool is that? It's engineering AND education AND anesthesiology. Before I met him, I wouldn't have thought an engineering PhD could be useful in anesthesiology either, but in this case, it obviously is. And I'm sure if you decided to do EM, you could figure out a way to put your background to work analogously. They DO use electronics in the ED, you know. 😉

 

[vc7777]

Eh. I did my MS intending to use it in my career - I thought of it as an investment in the future. I am doing work now that happens to be related to my MS, but I've done lots of work in many fields, most of them unrelated. The barriers to entry for a interested student is amazingly low.

Nice! Well, then the future is wide open!

Are you published? Do you have any patents? Those would go a long way to establishing academic cred, even though it was for industry.

Yes, industry-focused journal articles, and a few patents here and there. An international patent pending and another iron or two in the IP fire...Oh and one my designs was inducted into the NASA space tech hall of fame (a la Tempurpedic matress fame - snicker) a few months after I left the company...my only regret is not getting that sweet bronze medal...Man, I might have been able to convince people I was athletic at some point in my past!

It depends on the program and specialty. Some will give you the full ABIM research track experience, others will give you a year of protected time, others will give you an extra month or so during residency. It all depends on the program, the funding available, and how flexible the scheduling is. They are generally another step in applications (you'd apply for the ABIM as an intern) and thus another step up in competitiveness.

All are designed such that you will come out of the residency as a clinically competent attending.

Good to know. I will be watching you and CCLCMer closely to see how things turn out for you. Hopefully you will be able to give us some feedback about the types of tracks you in end up in by that time.

I meant at the NIH.

Gotcha. 🙂

There will always be a place for medical devices. I for one would love a wireless combined phone/pager/email/EMR portal/drug and medical reference, for example. Given that EMRs especially seem to be getting a boost, finding ways to integrate that data between patients and providers will be a great market for innovators. But I can think of a dozen different places where that experience would serve you if you wanted to apply that electronics experience to clinical problems.

Understood. While opportunities abound, I still need to evaluate if that is the particular niche I can see myself in for years to come.

You should consider where you want to go. A year is valuable to you, and it should be a place where you develop skills, contacts, and perspectives that will help you get to where you want to go. I have a Chem E degree, and unless I was doing a specific thesis project with a residency in mind - prosthesis design and I wanted to go into PM&R, or ORIF design and targeting ortho - I'd have a hard time justifying a masters in engineering at this stage of the game.

I hear you! I have to decide where my interests lie.

See my example above. With a decade of experience, you could make your own niche where ever you went.

I hope so! We shall see! 😀

It's not a complication. Do what you want. You owe it yourself to explore all of the different fields. The house of medicine is large, and there's room for everyone.

Look into ortho, PM&R, and rads.

Will do...the good thing is I have some time to decide...sort of!

I don't think you can rule out there being a niche for you in EM with an electrical engineering degree. I think I told you about this guy, who is simply amazing. First of all, he has more degrees than any other five people you can think of put together. He's an anesthesiologist, and he has a PhD in some kind of engineering, and he also has an education MS (plus a bunch of other degrees that he got just for fun). But he figured out a way to combine all of his training: he designs simulations to help train the anesthesiology residents. How cool is that? It's engineering AND education AND anesthesiology. Before I met him, I wouldn't have thought an engineering PhD could be useful in anesthesiology either, but in this case, it obviously is. And I'm sure if you decided to do EM, you could figure out a way to put your background to work analogously. They DO use electronics in the ED, you know. 😉

No! you didn't...that guy has more degrees than a thermometer!
I wonder if he sleeps? 😀

Hmmm...I'll see your Electrical-Engineer-Educator-Anesthesiologist-researcher...
and raise you this:

The commercial-pilot-cardiologist-professor-simulator-researcher!
[EDIT: removed link - he's not there anymore]

I was told he still makes one or two round trip international flights a month. That is, he is still a commercial pilot!

"Is there a Doctor on the plane?!"
"Yes! Not only am I the Pilot! I'm also a practicing cardiologist!"

The only thing that would trump both of these guys is an actual Neurosurgeon and practicing aeronautical engineer...the mythical "Rocket-Surgeon"

 

[RxnMan]

...NASA space tech hall of fame..

Very cool. With that sort of cred, you make your own way. I was working for a NASA center during the Columbia crash. Where were you?

...The commercial-pilot-cardiologist-professor-simulator-researcher!
Second guy on the list...

Here's a guy I remember from my undergrad. Taught classes, taught the EIT review course and proctored the exam, did research, and took classes on the side.

 

[vc7777]

Very cool. With that sort of cred, you make your own way. I was working for a NASA center during the Columbia crash. Where were you?

Here's a guy I remember from my undergrad. Taught classes, taught the EIT review course and proctored the exam, did research, and took classes on the side.

I was working on a NASA contract (SBIR) we won for remote monitoring of 12 lead ECGs...old technology by todays standards...interesting work though. I missed my graduation ceremony for undergrad b/c of one of our deliverable deadlines. That first job was very educational.

The award was for taking the core technology and spinning it out into a commercial device. It is pretty cool sounding, the award that is, but it is really a propaganda tool of NASA to highlight how their grants and awards have spurred commercially useful technologies (hence Tempurpedic was one of the first awardees).

 

[vc7777]

:bump:

OK - I know this thread has been quiescent for a while, but I was just reading the SDN front page article on dual degrees.

It talks about MD/JD programs, and being curious I looked for such programs and was surprised to see a list of the 24 MD/JD programs in the U.S. pop right up in a search.

Then I tried to find MD/MS programs. Zilch.

In particular, does anybody have a list of MD programs with a research MS (included or optional)?

Yes, I know - I'm already in 😉 Just a little zealous...

 

[Narmerguy]

:bump:

OK - I know this thread has been quiescent for a while, but I was just reading the SDN front page article on dual degrees.

It talks about MD/JD programs, and being curious I looked for such programs and was surprised to see a list of the 24 MD/JD programs in the U.S. pop right up in a search.

Then I tried to find MD/MS programs. Zilch.

In particular, does anybody have a list of MD programs with a research MS (included or optional)?

Yes, I know - I'm already in 😉 Just a little zealous...

I'm actually interested in the same thing.

 

[vc7777]

:bump:

Sorry for resurrecting, but there seems to be some people interested in the MS - research route, and this was a good discussion.

PLUS:
I have to put an addendum that the commercial-pilot-cardiologist-professor-simulator-researcher I referred to was found to be a fraud.