Deciding on psychiatry residency: Yale & Penn?

[DrBosse]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Any thoughts from current residents or attendings on the East Coast regarding the strengths of the psychiatry residency programs at Penn and Yale? I am having a difficult time deciding between them and would welcome any input or opinions. As far as location, it's a bit of a wash -- we'd probably prefer to live in New Haven, given that it's cheap and near NYC, but have relatives in Philly, so it really comes down to the merits of the programs. Thanks!

 

[atsai3]

Any thoughts from current residents or attendings on the East Coast regarding the strengths of the psychiatry residency programs at Penn and Yale? I am having a difficult time deciding between them and would welcome any input or opinions. As far as location, it's a bit of a wash -- we'd probably prefer to live in New Haven, given that it's cheap and near NYC, but have relatives in Philly, so it really comes down to the merits of the programs. Thanks!

It would help other SDN'ers get a better sense for the kind of feedback you are looking for if you could first post your own observations and impressions about the two programs.

In addition, it would help to dispel any possible perceptions that you are just free-riding off of SDN without providing any of your own contribution in return.

-AT.

 

[DrBosse]

It would help other SDN'ers get a better sense for the kind of feedback you are looking for if you could first post your own observations and impressions about the two programs.

In addition, it would help to dispel any possible perceptions that you are just free-riding off of SDN without providing any of your own contribution in return.

-AT.

What an incredibly rude response, Atsai. I created a new username to ask about programs because I'm in the process of applying to residency and it is extremely easy to identify me with my other profile. Also, I think seeing SDN as an insular community where one can only ask questions if one has "earned" the right to do so is silly and defeats the purpose of the site.

Given the tone of your response I doubt you actually care what my impressions were of the two programs, but since it is a legitimate point that I wasn't very specific, here's what I thought, and I'd love to hear if other people agree/disagree with these one-day impressions:

Yale: Innovative curriculum, high number of inpatient beds in a cool free-standing hospital, affordable town near New York, strong in forensics and community, unique Spanish-language services, very high salary. Weaknesses might be psychosomatics (a resident said this), a heavy-ish call schedule, and a small town environment. Also the residents weren't as happy and enthusiastic at dinner as in other places.

Penn: Very well respected psychiatry department within university, strong research, strong didactics, research is encouraged but not required, good community outreach programs, residents get own offices, city environment, very happy residents, night float, very strong psychosomatics. Weaknesses might be that their forensics program is new, the program might be a bit VA-heavy, and elective time is limited with overall less flexibility.

Thank you to anyone who can help with this decision . . . it's a biggie and will affect my husband and I for the next 4 years. Cheers, everyone!

 

[billypilgrim37]

Atsai's response was entirely appropriate. Plenty of people post questions like this. EVERYBODY would like to be able to throw their match list out their and watch people analyze it for them. Fewer people are willing to put their own opinions out first. You've now put out your thoughtful opinions on these programs, like you should have to begin with. So don't worry about it.

For my opinion, flip a coin. Unless there is something that jumps out for you about either program, they're both very good programs that will leave you with the sky-as-the-limit with regards to your future opportunities. I'm surprised to hear you find New Haven much cheaper than Philly. If you're interested in child, Yale has a clear advantage, but otherwise, flip a coin, and be pleased with your two very good top options.

 

[atsai3]

What an incredibly rude response, Atsai. I created a new username to ask about programs because I'm in the process of applying to residency and it is extremely easy to identify me with my other profile. Also, I think seeing SDN as an insular community where one can only ask questions if one has "earned" the right to do so is silly and defeats the purpose of the site.

Given the tone of your response I doubt you actually care what my impressions were of the two programs, but since it is a legitimate point that I wasn't very specific, here's what I thought, and I'd love to hear if other people agree/disagree with these one-day impressions:

Yale: Innovative curriculum, high number of inpatient beds in a cool free-standing hospital, affordable town near New York, strong in forensics and community, unique Spanish-language services, very high salary. Weaknesses might be psychosomatics (a resident said this), a heavy-ish call schedule, and a small town environment. Also the residents weren't as happy and enthusiastic at dinner as in other places.

Penn: Very well respected psychiatry department within university, strong research, strong didactics, research is encouraged but not required, good community outreach programs, residents get own offices, city environment, very happy residents, night float, very strong psychosomatics. Weaknesses might be that their forensics program is new, the program might be a bit VA-heavy, and elective time is limited with overall less flexibility.

Thank you to anyone who can help with this decision . . . it's a biggie and will affect my husband and I for the next 4 years. Cheers, everyone!

I'm going to have to disagree with your obstinately taking offense and agree with my original post. It has nothing to do with 'earning' your right to post comments. It is important for people on SDN to contribute to the board, because such reciprocity will make it that much more valuable a resource -- not only for people currently on SDN, but also for people who browse SDN in the future. There are way too many people who drive by, throw out a "what do you think of PROGRAM XYZ vs. PROGRAM PQRST" and post nothing in return. Too many consumers, not enough suppliers.

The whole identifiability issue is a non-issue. I was easily identifiable as a medical student applying for residency (and posting my reviews of programs in real-time knowing full well that a lurking program director could potentially identify me), and I am easily identifiable as a fellow now. If a program is going to ding you because you provided some honest feedback about its positives and negatives on an open forum, then you probably didn't want to go there anyway.

I didn't interview at either program, but one bit about New Haven: It is a 'small town', but if you care about food (which is what people frequently look for in a big city-- lots of diverse and high quality restaurant options), then New Haven is actually a very good restaurant town. I spend a lot of time in New Haven and have friends on faculty there-- and we universally agree that the food in New Haven is a step down from NYC or SF but is at least as good as Boston.

-AT.

 

[notdeadyet]

The whole identifiability issue is a non-issue. I was easily identifiable as a medical student applying for residency (and posting my reviews of programs in real-time knowing full well that a lurking program director could potentially identify me), and I am easily identifiable as a fellow now. If a program is going to ding you because you provided some honest feedback about its positives and negatives on an open forum, then you probably didn't want to go there anyway.

Totally agree with this ^^^.

I get that med students tend to lack confidence professionally (assuming we don't confuse confidence with cockiness in that charming little subset we all know and love). But the vast majority of Program Directors and Faculty members are not going to care about anyone's postings on SDN, definitely not to the point of doing a post-history-autopsy and figure out someone's identity.

And as atasai3 pointed out, anyone who would is really not at a program you'd want to be at. If a boss came up to me at work and gave me guff for something I posted anonymously on a web forum, I'd inch carefully toward the door and not look back.

I wouldn't go posting photos of myself smoking out of a bong on a social network (oh thank you for growing up pre-Facebook), but posting on threads under a pseudonym? I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[DrBosse]

I think a little worry might not be in the paranoid category, since there is at least one psychiatry program director who posts regularly on SDN. If getting a new ID is overkill, so be it, but there are more than a few other people who did that on SDN in the past month or so for the same reasons.

Atsai, "obstinate" means "stubbornly refusing to change one's opinion or action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so" and I actually did do what you suggested and offered opinions.

Thanks for the input about New Haven. I went there on a dark, weary winter day and stayed for just one night and ate at only a single restaurant. I do not have an opportunity to see it again before potentially moving there for four years, and dragging someone else with me. I don't personally know anyone who has spent time there. So I DO very much appreciate any help.

 

[Chimed]

I went there on a dark, weary winter day and stayed for just one night and ate at only a single restaurant. I do not have an opportunity to see it again before potentially moving there for four years, and dragging someone else with me. I don't personally know anyone who has spent time there. So I DO very much appreciate any help.

This is where going on a second look can be helpful. I ended up going back to 2 programs and spent most of my time looking more carefully at things like housing.

 

[billypilgrim37]

...

 

[worriedwell]

Between these two programs, I really think you are splitting hairs and doubt that really any specific programatic concerns are going to be much different. One may have slightly more call than the other, or have a few more months at a type of hospital you don't like compared to another, but these are minor things. If you are interested in setting yourself up for future jobs etc, both in my opinion are awesome for pretty much anything. If you seriously see yourself living in either city long term, that probably should be the choice to develop the local networking. If you have a specific niche interest that you are confidently interested in, that might favor one or the other, but without knowing your interest, its hard to specify.

At the end of the day, I do think there is something to be said about how you felt you fit into the culture of each program as usually your gut reaction of how you felt at the institution should carry some weight, especially given the two programs are both so stellar.

Good luck, its a win win academically.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think a little worry might not be in the paranoid category, since there is at least one psychiatry program director who posts regularly on SDN.

At least. But it's only an issue if you think that you'll post something that ProgramDirector will read, say to him/herself "this is something worthy of keeping this person out of my residency," search your username for past posts, generate as much personal data about you as possible, compare it to your personal statement/CV/application, and re-rank you.

I doubt anyone (PDs and otherwise) care so much about an individual's rant about psychopharm, healthcare policy, Scientologists, gun control, affirmative action, etc. to go to that effort. And if a program director is going to drop you from his rank list because you criticized the interview process at their residency program, do you really want to put your life and education in his hands for four years?

If getting a new ID is overkill, so be it, but there are more than a few other people who did that on SDN in the past month or so for the same reasons.

Yeah, but I think this is more a testament to the typical medical student personality type than it is to the actual risk. To each their own, but I just wish that folks in this field were more comfortable speaking their mind and living with the consequences. I don't have data, but can't help but feel you live longer that way.

 

[NoNoNoNo]

I'm making a similar decision and was wondering some things about Penn. My own review is on p. 3 of the current interview thread, and any help would be very much appreciated.

-The handout about call schedule is quite confusing. Is it a heavy call schedule and how much of it falls on weekends?
-Are there shuttles between sites or how easy is the public transport to rely on (i.e. having no car during residency)?
-How intense is the medicine and can you pick your sites?
-3rd and 4th year have a lot broken up between half days, do residents feel like they're running around a lot?
-Are supervisors on site?
-Do attendings have to see each outpt? And how does this affect the patient relationships?
-How are didactics? (they are closed to applicants...)
-How laid back or friendly is the faculty?
-Is there any exposure to social psychiatry?
-It seems like this program has less elective time; do residents feel that it is less flexible or not flexible enough?

 

[ziggy793]

See answers embedded below...

I'm making a similar decision and was wondering some things about Penn. My own review is on p. 3 of the current interview thread, and any help would be very much appreciated.

-The handout about call schedule is quite confusing. Is it a heavy call schedule and how much of it falls on weekends? Call isn't super heavy based on what residents tell me in general, but there are some busier times. Nothing heavier than NY programs. Residents are happy. Medicine months are hard.
-Are there shuttles between sites or how easy is the public transport to rely on (i.e. having no car during residency)? No car needed, but no shuttles really. Can take septa subway/buses and they usually give free pass if you opt out of free parking. Not difficult at all, but can be a pain if you are running late. No one ever yells at you though for traveling delays.
-How intense is the medicine and can you pick your sites? Medicine is intense because you are at HUP where high turnover and chaotic floors. Can see interesting things though.
-3rd and 4th year have a lot broken up between half days, do residents feel like they're running around a lot? Kinda-- not sure. Nothing to make you unhappy though!
-Are supervisors on site? Yes. Always accessible via pager/cell.
-Do attendings have to see each outpt? And how does this affect the patient relationships? Unclear, but they spend a brief amount of time with patients. They try to make resident primary provider
-How are didactics? (they are closed to applicants...) Mixed. Some are great, some are 😴 They make you rate every lecturer though so bad ones aren't asked to return.
-How laid back or friendly is the faculty? EXTREMELY friendly. Some are a little more old school, but always approachable. Best group of attendings around IMO. They are usually happy and social. Range is wide too which is nice i.e. newer to more seasoned.
-Is there any exposure to social psychiatry?
-It seems like this program has less elective time; do residents feel that it is less flexible or not flexible enough?

I think they feel its flexible for the most part. No complaints I've heard of.

 

[BobA]

One is in New Haven and the other is in Philadelphia.

Personally, I didn't even bother interviewing at Yale because having spent my life in New England I know that it's not an area I'd want to live in.

Philly, however, is a fairly livable big city.

So for me, it would just come down to location. Both are probably equal programs.

 

[whopper]

Personally I think there's better places to live vs. Philly. The city's seen better days and it's not a place expected to be better than what it is now unlike some other areas, U Penn is in a bad part of the city, and if you're not beholden to specifically be in Philadelphia, there's better places to live.

That said, the program does have it's merits such as research, but I wouldn't go to it because of Philadelphia. It's certainly not a bad program but I'd factor in quality of life in addition to the strength of the program. I'd understand if someone was going there because they were from the area and wanted to be with their family or things to that effect. I personally would avoid it but for personal reasons. I know certain things about people there I don't like, but I wouldn't use those factors to judge against the program because these are things that wouldn't affect most people in residency.