Deciding which school (too many variables)

[LeMaquis]

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Hi all,

With the December 14th deadline approaching, I'm finding myself in quite the conundrum. I've been accepted by a few schools, 4 of which I'm heavily considering. I've ultimately managed to narrow it down to 2 (but I'll list all 4 in case I'm missing something). I've weighed the pros and the cons, made my list, but I still can't decide.

The following are important to me: Tuition, residency placement, university experience, early medical experience, name-recognition, research.

As an international student, it's also important that I go to a school that is familiar with my position (getting a residency is a bit more complicated for us), which I know MSU has a lot of experience with, but the tuition is not something I can easily justify to be honest.

KCU-Joplin:
Tuition: Low (45,658).
Residency placement: 100%.
University experience: None (not a true university campus).
Early medical experience: Yes.
Name-recognition: Well-known.
Research: None.

UNECOM:
Tuition: Expensive (55,000).
Residency placement: 100%.
University experience: Good.
Early medical experience: Unknown.
Name-recognition: Fairly well-known.
Research: Decent amount.

MU-COM:
Tuition: Average (49,000).
Residency placement: 99%.
University Experience: Decent.
Early medical experience: Unknown.
Name-recognition: Too new to tell.
Research: Small amount.

MSUCOM:
Tuition: Insane (65,000).
Residency placement: 99%.
University experience: Great (EL).
Early medical experience: Unknown.
Name-recognition: Very well known.
Research: Extreme amount.

 

[fldoctorgirl]

I think MSUCOM is the "best" school out of the ones you listed, and also seems to check all of the things you want besides tuition. Going to a public DO is always the best move. The tuition is a lot, but I think they're the best fit for you-- especially, like you said, considering how good they are with international students.

 

[osteodoc7]

65,000 is a awful ! You gotta consider this is DO and most graduates will enter primary care. Also, if you're international ( and specifically canadian) than you know primary care docs get paid ****! Also look at the match back in Canada it was almost all family med ! I'd go to KCU next pick UNE. If money ain't a problem than sure msu sounds great

 

[Mimosas]

Could you clarify what you mean with "university experience". And, how important is university experience to you?

 

[LeMaquis]

Could you clarify what you mean with "university experience". And, how important is university experience to you?

I like the feeling of a university campus with lots of activities/clubs. Basically a vibrant on-campus life.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

I think MSUCOM is the "best" school out of the ones you listed, and also seems to check all of the things you want besides tuition. Going to a public DO is always the best move. The tuition is a lot, but I think they're the best fit for you-- especially, like you said, considering how good they are with international students.

With this advice I'm glad he is Canadian! At least when he is dirt poor and unable to pay back loans he will have healthcare!

Just using rough numbers from the sources at the bottom...

MSUCOM: avg indebtedness for non-resident (428k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,500/month (I was being nice because this number is slightly above the average repayment according to AAMC). Total after interest $428,530

KCU: avg indebtedness (290k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,000/month. Total after interest $291,775

Take the 23% match rate for DO in Canada (2017).... The way the literature makes it sound DOs are lumped into IMGs.

Also take the fact that after taxes the avg salary for a doc is $127k after taxes... Then convert that to USD $99K! (still haven't paid back those loans!!!)

Now take the average income necessary to say live in Toronto $113,009....

The OP will also be trying to overcome that $137K indebtedness difference.

I'm just saying, when deciding "fit" make sure the life of poverty after graduation also "fits".


FinAid | Calculators | Loan Comparison Calculator
Loan Indebtedness for Medical Students | Office of Financial Aid | Michigan State University
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/kcucom_cib2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Student Loan Repayment - Medical Schools and Students - Government Affairs - AAMC
How much are Canadian doctors paid?
Here's The Income You Need To Buy An Average House Across Canada

International medical graduates and US osteopathic medical graduates - CaRMS
By the numbers: Highlights from the 2017 R-1 match - CaRMS

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

Best school of those MSUCOM is it worth the debt and is the school's education worth 150k more than the others? no it is not

 

[LeMaquis]

With this advice I'm glad he is Canadian! At least when he is dirt poor and unable to pay back loans he will have healthcare!

Just using rough numbers from the sources at the bottom...

MSUCOM: avg indebtedness for non-resident (428k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,500/month (I was being nice because this number is slightly above the average repayment according to AAMC). Total after interest $428,530

KCU: avg indebtedness (290k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,000/month. Total after interest $291,775

Take the 23% match rate for DO in Canada (2017).... The way the literature makes it sound DOs are lumped into IMGs.

Also take the fact that after taxes the avg salary for a doc is $127k after taxes... Then convert that to USD $99K! (still haven't paid back those loans!!!)

Now take the average income necessary to say live in Toronto $113,009....

The OP will also be trying to overcome that $137K indebtedness difference.

I'm just saying, when deciding "fit" make sure the life of poverty after graduation also "fits".

The numbers you’re throwing out are all correct, but your assumption that I want to match back in Canada and practice there is not. I would never get in this much debt if my long term plan was to match and practice in Canada (where, as you pointed out, match rates and salaries are both significantly lower).

 

[fldoctorgirl]

With this advice I'm glad he is Canadian! At least when he is dirt poor and unable to pay back loans he will have healthcare!

Just using rough numbers from the sources at the bottom...

MSUCOM: avg indebtedness for non-resident (428k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,500/month (I was being nice because this number is slightly above the average repayment according to AAMC). Total after interest $428,530

KCU: avg indebtedness (290k), w/10 yr loan @ 5.84% repaid at 3,000/month. Total after interest $291,775

Take the 23% match rate for DO in Canada (2017).... The way the literature makes it sound DOs are lumped into IMGs.

Also take the fact that after taxes the avg salary for a doc is $127k after taxes... Then convert that to USD $99K! (still haven't paid back those loans!!!)

Now take the average income necessary to say live in Toronto $113,009....

The OP will also be trying to overcome that $137K indebtedness difference.

I'm just saying, when deciding "fit" make sure the life of poverty after graduation also "fits".


FinAid | Calculators | Loan Comparison Calculator
Loan Indebtedness for Medical Students | Office of Financial Aid | Michigan State University
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/cib/kcucom_cib2018.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Student Loan Repayment - Medical Schools and Students - Government Affairs - AAMC
How much are Canadian doctors paid?
Here's The Income You Need To Buy An Average House Across Canada

International medical graduates and US osteopathic medical graduates - CaRMS
By the numbers: Highlights from the 2017 R-1 match - CaRMS

I cannot, and did not attempt to, advise anyone on whether or not they think the debt is worth it. I simply shared my opinion on what I, and most people on SDN, think is true: state schools > original 5 > others. Only the OP can seriously consider the debt load that they are willing to take on and can handle. I am not their accountant.

I'm assuming that $99k salary stat you threw out was for a physician practicing in Canada? In the US, OP's salary will be significantly higher.

 

[Neurality]

As a current student who knows several Canadian students at MSUCOM, the tuition is something that can be managed. They also have scholarships available for OOS and international students to mitigate some of the cost. MSU as a whole is very international student friendly and securing a residency should be okay. I'm not sure what specialty you are interested in but anything but primary care will put you in a great position to pay back loans. If you are interested in research, you can't go wrong. One of the largest hospital systems in Michigan, McLaren, is building a new hospital on MSU's campus which should be operational by 2021. This will allow for even greater research and residency opportunities in addition to the SCS. The DO/MPH, DO/PhD and DO/MBA degrees also have a lot to offer. This is some, although limited early clinical experience. As an OMS II, you have to "shadow" in a clinic for 1-2 weeks, at least twice. This is the only experience as of now before you get before your clerkship years 3 and 4. The vibrant campus feel you seek is 110% here. Aside from the buzz surrounding the football and basketball programs, MSU/Lansing attracts many concerts, theatre shows and speakers. Finally, it might be cliché, but the environment here is so collaborative that you may even forget how difficult med school can be. The school is responsive to suggestions and critiques and tries hard to make the curriculum challenging but manageable.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Can you ask the schools to put you in contact with other Canadian students who attend those institutions? They would be the best sources to provide you information.

 

[LeMaquis]

Can you ask the schools to put you in contact with other Canadian students who attend those institutions? They would be the best sources to provide you information.

Yeah that's definitely something that I've considered. Is that frowned upon you think? Shouldn't be right?

 

[goilers]

I'm biased and this might not effect you were you to enroll for the class of 2022, but it's something that has me even more excited to attend MSUCOM for sure.
McLaren Health and MSU is opening an awesome-sounding hospital right down the road from MSUCOM directly adjacent to MSU's campus, which just seems like a plus in its column, but not until 2021 to be fair.
MSU and McLaren Health to expand partnership

 

[DNC127]

I'm biased and this might not effect you were you to enroll for the class of 2022, but it's something that has me even more excited to attend MSUCOM for sure.
McLaren Health and MSU is opening an awesome-sounding hospital right down the road from MSUCOM directly adjacent to MSU's campus, which just seems like a plus in its column, but not until 2021 to be fair.
MSU and McLaren Health to expand partnership

OP I would choose MSU. Has everything you want, except for $$... YOLO.

Also, do the DO students get to rotate at that new hospital or is it for the MD students? Looks awesome. If the hospital is for the DO students for sure go to MSU.

 

[goilers]

Also, do the DO students get to rotate at that new hospital or is it for the MD students? Looks awesome. If the hospital is for the DO students for sure go to MSU.

I don't have any extra knowledge of it, and have just scoured a few different articles on it- so I don't know haha. But if I had to guess, I would guess both. It's going to be located very close to MSUCOM, which is on the main EL campus, while the MD school is centered in Grand Rapids (an hour+ drive away). So, where it is situated is definitely exciting, and at least in one of the articles I read, both MSUCHM (MD's) and MSUCOM had deans at the unveiling, fwiw

 

[deleted831695]

OP I would choose MSU. Has everything you want, except for $$... YOLO.

Also, do the DO students get to rotate at that new hospital or is it for the MD students? Looks awesome. If the hospital is for the DO students for sure go to MSU.

I believe it will have affiliations with the MD, DO, and nursing schools. There was COM faculty at the unveiling ceremony.